Freeing the Jem'Hadar from their drug-addiction - yes or no?

[Prometheus Unbound]

it was real, as far as anyone is concerned - nothing to suggest it was a plot.

[Darth Tanner]

Since I haven't seen the episode in a while: How do we know that the gateway was functional ?

Or at least close enough to functional that it could be repaired ?

It at least appears to be working fully, although they never show it in use, they don't use it to attack DS9 for instance.

[bilateralrope]

The other side of that gateway appears to be in the air. Which won't be good for anyone stepping through.

[Tribble]

For reference:

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvQ0inEJiZY[/youtube]

If Weyoun's goal was something other than the destruction of the Iconian Gateway, there was absolutely no reason for him to tell Sisko about it, let alone lead him to it and help him blow it up! If it was about Odo, there are many ways of getting to him that wouldn't have required the Dominion to sacrifice a game-changing piece of technology. Hell, they could have just used the gateway to get at him.

And btw, I'm not saying that a rebellion would have actually occurred, or if it did that it would have been successful. In fact, the episode itself suggests that it wouldn't - the Jem'Hader working under Weyoun were well aware of the gateway and remained loyal (to the point that they executed Weyoun because he questioned their faith). I'm just pointing that the Dominion (rightly or wrongly) viewed the Gateway as a potential threat that had to be destroyed rather than used. That makes far more sense than some bizarre conspiracy on Weyoun's part.

[Prometheus Unbound]

The other side of that gateway appears to be in the air. Which won't be good for anyone stepping through.

or maybe it's on a hill.

[Purple]

The other side of that gateway appears to be in the air. Which won't be good for anyone stepping through.

Ladders?

[Simon_Jester]

A fully functional Iconian gateway is 'tunable;' it is not a fixed point-to-point portal.

[FedRebel]

While they are addicted the Dominion can use them to further its aggression. If freed from the dependency

Is that even possible though? The Dominion has 100% control over reproduction, couldn't they have introduced the addiction as a genetic requirement?

That would be the Fail-safe, not only does the drug greatly reduce the risk of desertion or rebellion, but going without it too long means Death, as the Jem'Hadar's organs shutdown due to lacking the chemical for a certain length of time

they can choose whether to follow the Founders' orders. What would probably happen is schisms, with conflict amongst the Jem'Hadar,

In order to get them to part from the Founders you have to break their religious conviction, the dangerous thing about the Jem'Hadar isn't that they're constantly stoned on narcotics, it's that they're fanatically loyal to the Founders religion.

Even after that problem is resolved, you have to contend with the fact that they're purebred undistilled soldiers, not a politician among them (that's what the Vorta are for.) You now have nomadic Barbarian bands that will reap destruction across the Alpha/Beta, and Gamma Quadrants, that can't be bargained with or negotiated, anyone not in their squadron/battalion is not just an enemy, but a resource to be raped.

and some even choosing to fight on behalf of the Federation, or as mercenaries.

Outside Section 31, I doubt the Federation would be at all amused by that possibility.

The Romulans are in the market for a replacement warrior race, however.

[Simon_Jester]

While they are addicted the Dominion can use them to further its aggression. If freed from the dependency

Is that even possible though? The Dominion has 100% control over reproduction, couldn't they have introduced the addiction as a genetic requirement?

That would be the Fail-safe, not only does the drug greatly reduce the risk of desertion or rebellion, but going without it too long means Death, as the Jem'Hadar's organs shutdown due to lacking the chemical for a certain length of time

Retroviral engineering might allow you to remove the chemical dependency from adult Jem'Hadar. Or there might be some chemical substance that can substitute for ketracel white. Or perhaps even some form of nanotechnology or implant that produces and creates the stuff that you could stick inside a Jem'Hadar's body.

So while it may not be possible to directly remove the addiction, there are several pathways that could be used to eliminate the problem.

[Prometheus Unbound]

While they are addicted the Dominion can use them to further its aggression. If freed from the dependency

Is that even possible though? The Dominion has 100% control over reproduction, couldn't they have introduced the addiction as a genetic requirement?

That would be the Fail-safe, not only does the drug greatly reduce the risk of desertion or rebellion, but going without it too long means Death, as the Jem'Hadar's organs shutdown due to lacking the chemical for a certain length of time

Retroviral engineering might allow you to remove the chemical dependency from adult Jem'Hadar. Or there might be some chemical substance that can substitute for ketracel white. Or perhaps even some form of nanotechnology or implant that produces and creates the stuff that you could stick inside a Jem'Hadar's body.

So while it may not be possible to directly remove the addiction, there are several pathways that could be used to eliminate the problem.

some borg nano probes from seven could probably do it.

[Purple]

Or there might be some chemical substance that can substitute for ketracel white.

Now that's a good idea. We could manufacture our own substitute and give them the option of being our slave race instead.

[FaxModem1]

I don't think the Federation would be kosher with that idea, as for all intents and purposes, the Jem'hadar are biological sentient beings, and the UFP is rather against the idea of slavery(yes, they kind of enslave holograms, but they're working on that).

[Simon_Jester]

Purple is a tyranny-fetishist and has been for years, pay him no mind.

That said, yes, duplicating ketracel-white is probably the most likely to actually work. In a 'realistic' scenario the Federation would already know how to do this because it's not like they don't have captured samples of ketracel-white to work from. Even if they can't just punch the molecular structure into an E-Z-Bake Replicator Oven and press 'go,' it's not like they lack other means of synthesizing organic compounds.

some borg nano probes from seven could probably do it.

It's likely that Borg technology could adapt for that purpose. Although I'd be leery of doing that. If the Borg ever reverse-engineer what you did with their technology, you've just given them the key to start assimilating Jem'Hadar en masse, which would otherwise be pretty much impossible for them because the freshly assimilated drones would all drop dead in short order.

At least make them work to find a way around that.

[Joun_Lord]

Why would Jem'Hader drones just die? The bog standard Jem'Hader rely on their cocaine but a drone probably wouldn't need to. Drones survive without food, water, air, survive being frozen for hundreds of years, and are supposed to be able to regenerate from damage (I don't recall if drones where ever shown actually doing that, most just seem to die and stay dead except the frozen ones).

These are drones that like the Jem'Hader required their cocaine they required to eat, drink, breath, and not be frozen before being assimilated. I'd assume what mechanism allows the biological components of a drone of other races to go without normal biological functions would allow the Jem'Hader drones to go without ketracel white without dying.

[Simon_Jester]

Hm. That's a fair point. I'd just figured that the ketracel-white dependency was built into the Jem'Hadar on a cellular level and that basic biological functions would break down without it.

I mean, the Borg drones may not need food or drink, but one can reasonably suppose that their implants supply those needs. And the Borg would know how to make implants that can feed and hydrate drones, since virtually all species have needs for food and water. But if they encounter a previously unknown organism with unknown failure modes... less likely that they'd know what to do.

[FTeik]

Wasn't it a point of the episode with the failed augments (DS9, Season 6, Episode Statistical Probabilities http://en.memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/S ... episode%29 ), that the Dominion couldn't replicate Ketracel-White and had to negotiate with the Federation during an armistice to get a planet, where they could get one of the ingredients?

[Imperial Overlord]

It's important to remember that The Dominion as an institution isn't rational when it comes to the subject of Jem'Hadar rebellion and the projections of Vorta who are placed in an adveserial management position over them should be taken with more than a few grains of salt. The Founders created The Dominion to control all other life they encountered and created/modified the Jem'Hadar and the Vorta to run it for them. The Jem'Hadar are genetically engineered to be loyal to the Founders, indoctronated to be loyal to the Founders, and addicted to a substence that they can only obtain through the Vorta who they are frequently in conflict with in a classic divide and rule strategy. The Founders have done literally everything in their power to make the Jem'Hadar loyal and still have a Sword of Damacles hanging over their collective heads. That is fear.

The Vorta are constantly on the look out for disloyalty among the Jem'Hadar and are prone to seeing it even when its not there. The whole of the Dominion is based on an obsessive need to control all of its people. And what came of Weyoun's projections? The Jem'Hadar knew about what the renegades and the Iconian Gateway, even though he desperately feared that information getting loose. They did their duty to the Founders and then killed Weyoun for the insult of questioning their loyalty. Which is another thing not to over look. The Vorta and Jem'Hadar are placed into positions of conflict, undoubtedly to prevent them from joining forces and rebelling against the Founders. Jem'Hadar who kill Vorta doesn't mean their rebels, it means they're fragging an officer they really hate.

[Solauren]

Faking an iconican gateway that is not going to be used is not difficult. With the jamming field that was in place, all you'd need is some holodeck technology.
Especially when the Iconican homeworld, and the base there, did NOT have any of that stuff on it.

I'm wondering now if the Dominion didn't set it up, and waited specifically until Odo was around to spring the entire scenario. Certainly seems like their style.

[Prometheus Unbound]

Something I always wondered from that episode.

In the briefing, someone (Dax I think maybe O'Brien) asks why not just fire on it from orbit. The answer give is "Even a direct hit by a torpedo wouldn't necessarily destroy the gateway".

My response would be "have ya tried?"

I mean, they were going to kill all the Jem Hadar down there anyway, why not do it from orbit. And if 1 wont necessarily destroy the gate, how about, like, 50 ?

And even if not, then fire at the surface anyway, kill the Jem'Hadar down there, then beam down with no opposition.

[Joun_Lord]

Something I always wondered from that episode.

In the briefing, someone (Dax I think maybe O'Brien) asks why not just fire on it from orbit. The answer give is "Even a direct hit by a torpedo wouldn't necessarily destroy the gateway".

My response would be "have ya tried?"

They probably trust their analysis of the structure of the gateway to not bother shooting it. Its like someone saying just going by the material composition alone a 5.56 NEATO round couldn't hurt a Abrams tank. Someone wouldn't need to shoot it to confirm this. Furthermore just shooting it just because would destroy any element of surprise they had while not destroying their objective.

They could have also been worried about something unknown happening by shooting it. The Iconian gateway is supposed to be a portal to other worlds and is tech beyond what the Feddies (and most anyone else) can create. They may have been worried about whatever is powering the thing to be unleashed into a wormhole that could destroy whatever is on the other side. Considering the portals on the show opened up on on Earth, Bajor, the Enterprise, and other places its hard to say what bombing the crap out of it might do and where the energy might go.

They could have wanted to keep it intact to study it too. Such tech would be pretty damn game changing if they could reverse engineer it.

[Simon_Jester]

I mean heck, in the TNG episode featuring an Iconian gateway, the gateway was used as a means to travel from the planetary surface to a point on the Enterprise.

It is at least conceivable that you could get the following outcome:

Sisko:
"Aha, I have fired a torpedo at you."

Jem'Hadar:
"Aha, fuck you, we have opened a gateway portal to a point right behind your chair. Have fun exploding."

Sisko:
"OH SH-"

Basically, having full control over an Iconian gateway can let you do most of the screwy stuff that people imagine doing with teleporters (beaming people into space, teleporting bombs through enemies' shields and hulls). Only without being as easy to defeat, deflect, jam, or deactivate as a transporter is.

They are not weapons to be taken lightly.

[Prometheus Unbound]

Something I always wondered from that episode.

In the briefing, someone (Dax I think maybe O'Brien) asks why not just fire on it from orbit. The answer give is "Even a direct hit by a torpedo wouldn't necessarily destroy the gateway".

My response would be "have ya tried?"

They probably trust their analysis of the structure of the gateway to not bother shooting it. Its like someone saying just going by the material composition alone a 5.56 NEATO round couldn't hurt a Abrams tank. Someone wouldn't need to shoot it to confirm this. Furthermore just shooting it just because would destroy any element of surprise they had while not destroying their objective.

IT's just the wording. "Even a direct hit by a torpedo wouldn't necessarily destroy the gateway".

What about two direct hits? 10? It just seems odd wording to me. Maybe it's just my head, but they approached the topic and shot it down why not say it more concretely - "the neutronium structure makes it immune to antimatter weapons" or some such. It sounds like they're not confident a single torp would do it, is all.

So fire them all. And fire your phasers on wide stun, to stun all the rogue jem'hadar!

[Eternal_Freedom]

Maybe they wanted to avoid technobabble. Jut going with "a direct hit won't take it out" is easy to grasp without having to parse the "neutronium structures are invulnerable to antimatter weaponry" bit. The simpler statement also doesn't cause issues if they later need a neutronium structure to be destroyed without some super-nerd (yes, probably one of us) going "but you said that wouldn't work!"

The actual line says what it needs without being overly complicated or overly-limiting for future writers. Why make it more complex than they have to?

[Prometheus Unbound]

Fair enough I guess