10 Commandments statue must be removed from OK State Capitol

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Channel72
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Re: 10 Commandments statue must be removed from OK State Cap

Post by Channel72 »

Theology IS a form of scholarship, both historical and linguistic in nature. The fact that you think that it fails to produce any new knowledge (while, ironically, citing a discovery that was only made possible by close theological study of religious texts) shows that you don't actually know what you are talking about. In fact, that you think that hermeneutics and exegesis is purely the search for some nebulous deeper meaning indicates that you don't even know what those words mean. I suggest you actually do some research into the subject before you start spouting more nonsense. All of your arguments seem to be rooted in a deep ignorance of what modern theology actually entails.

As I mentioned in a previous post, all of your arguments against theology only hold if you also dismiss the entire school of close reading and literary criticism of which theology is simply a special case.
Please, there's a long tradition of skepticism about the actual usefulness of theology, and what it really entails, and I'm hardly the first person to say any of this shit. Secondly, the discovery I cited (Enuma Elish vs. Genesis) was made possible by archeology, Assyriology, and German higher criticism, for the most part, not necessarily theology.

Secondly, you're really full of shit. The reality is that theology is a form of scholarship yes, but it is heavily tainted by a priori religious convictions, and your attempt to equate it entirely with serious Biblical scholarship is silly. A large part of theology is utterly useless musings about the nature of God, Christ, sin, Redemption, etc., shit which is utterly meaningless apart from religious convictions. Look at the entire work of someone like C.H. Dodd, who basically spent all his time "interpreting" the New Testament to fit his views about Christian eschatology. Or N.T. Wright, who argues about such subjects as dispensationalism or when the rapture is going to happen. Please. Are these not "real" theologians to you?

The actual useful stuff, like the whole German tradition of "Higher Criticism", combined with advances in archaeology and computational linguistics, is responsible for what we can reliably know about the Bible (JEPD theory/documentary hypothesis, Marcan priority/Q hypothesis, etc.). But for you to classify that as exclusively "theology", while ignoring all the bullshit that comes out of theology (i.e. the entire fucking field of Christology, which again is little more than the equivalent of Tolkien fans musing about the nature of Sauron or something) is absurd. I already said that theology overlaps with Biblical scholarship, but you keep ignoring the fact that Biblical scholarship is an independent field that exists apart from theology. You seem to be really trying to pretend that theology is all serious scholarship and shit like this doesn't exist.
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Re: 10 Commandments statue must be removed from OK State Cap

Post by Zeropoint »

I can't take theology seriously as an academic discipline because they can't establish that the object of their study actually EXISTS, let alone work out what properties it has.
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Re: 10 Commandments statue must be removed from OK State Cap

Post by Ralin »

Zeropoint wrote:I can't take theology seriously as an academic discipline because they can't establish that the object of their study actually EXISTS, let alone work out what properties it has.
You assume that theology is the study of God and not the study and explication of things that were supposedly said and done by God and what other people have said on the subject. The latter things clearly do exist, even if God didn't do them.
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Re: 10 Commandments statue must be removed from OK State Cap

Post by loomer »

Zeropoint wrote:I can't take theology seriously as an academic discipline because they can't establish that the object of their study actually EXISTS, let alone work out what properties it has.
You sound like such a fucking tool.
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Re: 10 Commandments statue must be removed from OK State Cap

Post by Tiriol »

Ralin wrote:
Zeropoint wrote:I can't take theology seriously as an academic discipline because they can't establish that the object of their study actually EXISTS, let alone work out what properties it has.
You assume that theology is the study of God and not the study and explication of things that were supposedly said and done by God and what other people have said on the subject. The latter things clearly do exist, even if God didn't do them.
One could add to your explanation what theology is the addendum that Zeropoint also, by that account, also would have hard time with, say, political sciences as academic disciplines since such things as political organizations, including states, exist only insofar as people believe in them. If that gets too philosophical as an example, we could use philosophy as another example.

My brother has a master's degree in theology and I helped him with his thesis (by reading it and pointing out spelling mistakes - a wonderfully intelligent man, my brother is, but not too keen on Finnish or grammar). Thesis was about early heresies and how they were seen by the Church. It had nothing to do with God objectively existing or not and all about history and doctrine. Theology encompasses much more than study of God (in fact, as I understand it, study of the divine is not that big a thing in current theology in itself).
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Re: 10 Commandments statue must be removed from OK State Cap

Post by loomer »

Don't forget law. By his standard, my calling as an academic and a professional isn't a serious discipline because law doesn't actually exist.
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Re: 10 Commandments statue must be removed from OK State Cap

Post by Elheru Aran »

Hell, there are even some people who argue fairly plausibly that it's possible to be a Jew and be atheist, or be an atheist Christian, based upon careful interpretation of theology. Granted, these examples probably stretch the concept a bit much, since a tacit assumption in the existence of a deity is slightly required to be part of those faiths, but it's been done. Belief in deities is not a prerequisite to partake in theology.
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Re: 10 Commandments statue must be removed from OK State Cap

Post by Zeropoint »

You assume that theology is the study of God and not the study and explication of things that were supposedly said and done by God and what other people have said on the subject. The latter things clearly do exist, even if God didn't do them.
Well, yes, but at that point shouldn't the study be considered anthropology or sociology or history, or something like that?

As far as politics, political entities, and law go, don't be silly--they obviously exist as human activities. Humans are real and humans do things, so it's perfectly legitimate and useful to study the things humans do.

If, as some of you are saying, "theology" as it's currently practiced has nothing to do with any gods or the implications of gods for humans, then I have no problem with the practice--it's just not what I've understood the word "theology" to mean. I was referring to the kind of theology mentioned earlier in the thread, in which the practitioners study various "holy" texts under the assumption that the texts are divinely inspired and that the correct interpretation is Very Important for people making decisions in the present.
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Re: 10 Commandments statue must be removed from OK State Cap

Post by loomer »

The practice of religion is as real as the practice of law. Shit, the two are literally the same exact thing half of the time. Thus, it must also be perfectly legitimate and useful to study the ways human experience religion, divinities, and faith.
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Re: 10 Commandments statue must be removed from OK State Cap

Post by Metahive »

I see problems at work here with the arguments put forward by the pro-Theologians:

1."God" as portrayed in the Bible is not an abstract object, he's considered a sentient, sapient entity that can reason and be reasoned with. "Law" is a set of rules and regulations that humans at one point or another came up with to help govern their societies. I don't see any justification to liken one to the other

2.The central problem of theology is that so far humanity has found no method that enables researchers to interact with their object of research, God, in a meanigful and consistent way. You can say that ancient religious texts can give one pointers about God's nature and behaviour, but then i would have to ask with what justification one can actually link the Bible or the Qu'ran to God. There's as of yet simply no way to even figure out beyond reasonable doubt if these texts actually have ever been written with any sort of divine authority. As long as these issues are not resolved, researching God is simply a futile endeavour, a great lot of pointing and describing shadows deep in a platonic cave

Consider this: as of yet no theologian could even come up with a defintion of God that would enable someone to accurately identify a being as the God of Abraham if it showed up, isn't that saying everything?

3.All it takes to research law is for someone to have written it down at some point. This is really not that great a counter-argument
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loomer
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Re: 10 Commandments statue must be removed from OK State Cap

Post by loomer »

Are you seriously this fucking dense? Fucking christ.
Metahive wrote:I see problems at work here with the arguments put forward by the pro-Theologians:

1."God" as portrayed in the Bible is not an abstract object, he's considered a sentient, sapient entity that can reason and be reasoned with. "Law" is a set of rules and regulations that humans at one point or another came up with to help govern their societies. I don't see any justification to liken one to the other
You are aware, yes, that in the majority of legal cultures the original foundation of law was believed to be a god, or multiple ones? Theology is also not concerned solely with the study of God, as you seem to think, but rather the study of the religion in general. And, shockingly, religion is a set of rules and regulations that humans at one point or another came up with to help govern their societies. They are literally cut from the same cloth - things we cannot find by digging in the dirt, and which require humans to create, interpret, and apply. Law is as created and imagined as any religious dogma.
2.The central problem of theology is that so far humanity has found no method that enables researchers to interact with their object of research, God, in a meanigful and consistent way. You can say that ancient religious texts can give one pointers about God's nature and behaviour, but then i would have to ask with what justification one can actually link the Bible or the Qu'ran to God. There's as of yet simply no way to even figure out beyond reasonable doubt if these texts actually have ever been written with any sort of divine authority. As long as these issues are not resolved, researching God is simply a futile endeavour, a great lot of pointing and describing shadows deep in a platonic cave
Is philosophy also a meaningless and futile endeavour, since you've raised the allegory of the cave? Also, shockingly, many non-scientific disciplines suffer a similar issue, including law.
Consider this: as of yet no theologian could even come up with a defintion of God that would enable someone to accurately identify a being as the God of Abraham if it showed up, isn't that saying everything?
It's not saying anything as it simply is untrue. Don't make shit up to win arguments.
3.All it takes to research law is for someone to have written it down at some point. This is really not that great a counter-argument
You really are fucking dense. All it takes to research theology - the study of a god or a religion - is to study the beliefs (usually written) of a religion's adherents about that god. It is literally no different except the object of study is slightly more enigmatic, and even that is a very loose and tricky statement to make for a legal pluralist. The fact that you seem to think the idea of law is somehow more concrete than the idea of a god is frankly laughable, and that's coming from someone who takes a very great amount of pride in studying the law.

You rely on the strawman that all theology is is trying to scientifically study God directly, which is frankly untrue, intellectually dishonest, and insulting to every theologian - including atheist theologians, who shockingly do in fact exist. It is a large, compound discipline with many areas of exceptional validity, especially with religion continuing to play a major and dominant role in global politics.
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Re: 10 Commandments statue must be removed from OK State Cap

Post by Zeropoint »

Quoting from Wikipedia:
In some contemporary contexts, a distinction is made between theology, which is seen as involving some level of commitment to the claims of the religious tradition being studied, and religious studies. By contrast religious studies is normally seen as requiring that the question of the truth or falsehood of the religious traditions studied is kept outside its field. Religious studies involves the study of the historical or contemporary practices or ideas those traditions using intellectual tools and frameworks that are not themselves specifically tied to any religious tradition, and that are normally understood to be neutral or secular.[62] In contexts where 'religious studies' in this sense is the focus, the primary forms of study are likely to include:

Anthropology of religion
Comparative religion
History of religions
Philosophy of religion
Psychology of religion
Sociology of religion

Theology and religious studies are sometimes seen as being in tension;[63] they are sometimes held to coexist without serious tension;[64] and it is sometimes denied that there is as clear a boundary between them as the brief description here suggests.[65]
It seems to me that a lot of the animosity being directed at Metahive and myself comes from the word "theology" being used in different ways. Many of you are using the word to include "religious studies", whereas he and I agree that the approach of the religious scholar studying their own religion and the approach of the secular scholar are distinct enough to warrant different terms. We have complaints only against those who practice "theology" as a "discipline" distinct from religious studies.

I have NO problem with anyone studying religion as a human phenomenon--but I don't think such an activity should be called "theology".
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Re: 10 Commandments statue must be removed from OK State Cap

Post by Channel72 »

^ Yeah really. A lot of people in this thread are just trying to pretend that "theology" is synonymous with things like religious studies, Biblical scholarship, anthropology, philology, etc. The field of theology can include those things to a certain extent, but it also goes beyond that in that it also incorporates a framework of a priori religious beliefs into the process, in order to reach conclusions about things like the nature of God, etc. It's really no coincidence that a large percentage of theologians are also priests, Rabbis, etc. A theologian is more likely to be concerned with the actual nature of (an actual, ontologically meaningful and effectively real) God, rather than merely understanding a certain body of religious beliefs or texts.

To pretend otherwise is just an abuse of words.
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Re: 10 Commandments statue must be removed from OK State Cap

Post by Channel72 »

I should also mention that in the Islamic world, theologians are pretty much exclusively interpreting the Q'ran from the stance of assuming it is actually an undisputedly REAL revelation from God. There is no pretense of secularism or some kind of non-committal attitude towards these texts, and there is a pretty clear distinction between theology and things like philological or archaeological studies, (which would be more likely to get you fired/arrested in some places if they don't produce conclusions which are compatible with what the theologians want...).
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Re: 10 Commandments statue must be removed from OK State Cap

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It's not different for Christian theologians either. Past famous theologians, like Augustinus, Thomas of Aquinas, Martin Luther and Karl Barth did not write treatises that covered God and the divine from a secular point of view, Barth's famous work "Kirchliche Dogmatik" is all over discussing divine concepts in a spiritual way. The very first volume deals with the role of the trinity in the revelation of God to mankind. I really don't know why the people here think they can sell theology as secular science. Heck, I asked my own uncle who's both a lutheran pastor and holds a PhD in theology as to what theology is all about and he answered quite frankly "it's the study of the divine, the logos of God". I think I take his word over that of the people here telling me otherwise.
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Re: 10 Commandments statue must be removed from OK State Cap

Post by biostem »

Theology, as a study of religions, their doctrine, their history, and how they have influenced people & society, is a perfectly valid field of study. As a study of some supposed god or gods' interaction with humanity, less so.
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Re: 10 Commandments statue must be removed from OK State Cap

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Theology, as a study of religions, their doctrine, their history, and how they have influenced people & society, is a perfectly valid field of study. As a study of some supposed god or gods' interaction with humanity, less so.
I assure you, I agree entirely. I just don't feel that "a study of religions, their doctrine, their history, and how they have influenced people & society" should be called theology.
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Re: 10 Commandments statue must be removed from OK State Cap

Post by Ralin »

Zeropoint wrote:
Theology, as a study of religions, their doctrine, their history, and how they have influenced people & society, is a perfectly valid field of study. As a study of some supposed god or gods' interaction with humanity, less so.
I assure you, I agree entirely. I just don't feel that "a study of religions, their doctrine, their history, and how they have influenced people & society" should be called theology.
Speaking as someone with a religious studies degree, they may be separate but they overlap. If only because study of religion will at times necessarily require understanding the beliefs of religious people and groups and the reasoning they give for them.

Plus, you know. Theology as an academic discipline means that religious people are holding themselves up to at least some rational standard. Which is ultimately to everyone's benefit since it at least means we're talking the same language and they can be reasoned with to some degree.
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Re: 10 Commandments statue must be removed from OK State Cap

Post by Borgholio »

OK Supreme Court just affirmed that the monument must go as it violates the separation of church and state. They also denied a request for a re-hearing by the state AG.

http://www.kjrh.com/news/national/oklah ... _24430765_
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Re: 10 Commandments statue must be removed from OK State Cap

Post by Flagg »

Now it's going to be asking for stay after stay while they "try to find a new location" (I'd suggest a dumpster), then it's stay after stay until they "figure out how to move it without damaging it" (I don't see how that's the state's concern), and then stay after stay until they "find the right contractor to do it at a reasonable price" (I'll do it for a pizza, a coke, and if I can keep the sledgehammer). The stays will almost certainly be granted, though they wouldn't be if it were a statue of Baal or something. It would be awesome if the court gave them like 10 days and then fined them $10,000 a day until it's removed, though.
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Re: 10 Commandments statue must be removed from OK State Cap

Post by Borgholio »

The stays will almost certainly be granted, though they wouldn't be if it were a statue of Baal or something.
You hear about the statue erected by the Church of Satan in Detroit? :)

http://time.com/3972713/detroit-satanic ... -baphomet/
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Re: 10 Commandments statue must be removed from OK State Cap

Post by Borgholio »

Looks like the stay has passed. The monument will go within the next two weeks.

https://www.rawstory.com/2015/09/oklaho ... by-oct-12/
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Re: 10 Commandments statue must be removed from OK State Cap

Post by biostem »

Whenever one of these cases come up, I'm always amused - can anyone prove that "Thou shall have no other gods before me" or "Thou shall not take the lord's name in vain" are actually in the Constitution or codified U.S. law? It is a demonstrable fact that laws against murder, theft, and lying/perjury existed well before Judaism, so how do the supporters of such monuments even have a leg to stand on?
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Re: 10 Commandments statue must be removed from OK State Cap

Post by Elheru Aran »

American tradition is about the only leg they have-- long defunct blue laws forbidding alcohol on Sundays, minimal populations of non-Christian religions, and so forth. Never mind that a lot of their blue laws fail the Constitution...
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Re: 10 Commandments statue must be removed from OK State Cap

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