Breaking: Possible wreckage of MH370 found

[Thanas]

Telegraph

MH370: wreckage found on Reunion 'matches Malaysia Airlines flight'
Fragments of a wing washed up in the French island of Reunion could be wreckage from Malaysia Airlines flight MH370, says aviation expert

A French aviation expert believes he may have found the wreckage of MH370 – the Malaysia Airlines flight which disappeared off the coast of Malaysia in March 2014.

Xavier Tytelman, a former military pilot who now specialises in aviation security, was contacted on Wednesday morning by a man living on the island of Reunion, in the Indian Ocean. The man sent Mr Tytelman a series of photos showing wreckage of a plane, which the Frenchman said could possibly be the missing jet.

"I've been studying hundreds of photos and speaking to colleagues," Mr Tytelman told The Telegraph. "And we all think it is likely that the wing is that of a Boeing 777 – the same plane as MH370.

"Police in Reunion examining the wreckage say that it looks like it's been in the water for around a year, which again would fit with MH370. We can't say for certainty, but we do think there is a chance that this is it."

The plane vanished with 239 people on board in circumstances which have baffled investigators, and left distraught families searching for answers.

Wild theories emerged about the plane: that it had landed in Diego Garcia, or flown on to North Korea.

But Mr Tytelman believes that the Indian Ocean location makes sense for wreckage of the plane to have washed up.

"The French police are now looking at it, and the Australians – who are in charge of the search – are interested too," he said. "We don't know how long it will take to get confirmation or a definite denial. But it's an intriguing development."

Writing on his blog, Mr Tytelman said that the photos of the wreckage had aroused significant interest on the AvGeek website – a closed forum for pilots.

He said that there was much discussion over a code part of the wreckage: BB670.

"The code is not that of a plane number plate, nor that or a serial number on machinery," he wrote.

"But if the flaperon does indeed belong to MH370, it's clear that the reference will be swiftly identified. In a few days we will have a definitive answer."

More information in french with important pictures here. The comparison between the parts of the 777 and the wreckage in the above link is convincing to this non-pilot.

[Dominus Atheos]

http://www.cnn.com/2015/07/29/africa/mh ... stigation/

How could it have been found off the coast of Madagascar? Something called the Indian Ocean Gyre:



http://www.i-cool.org/?p=4916

[Thanas]

Apparently some other airplane crashes near reunion included a 747 and other Boeings, so one has to wait for identification number confirmation. Should be a few days or so.

[Lagmonster]

I presume this will simply confirm that the plane crashed, which allows the mourners to grieve properly and doesn't explain what happened.

[Venator]

I presume this will simply confirm that the plane crashed, which allows the mourners to grieve properly and doesn't explain what happened.

Potentially, you could use this piece and some complicated metrics of ocean flow to give an idea of where to find the flight recorder, but from my memory its beacon would have long since run out of juice.

[Elheru Aran]

I presume this will simply confirm that the plane crashed, which allows the mourners to grieve properly and doesn't explain what happened.

Potentially, you could use this piece and some complicated metrics of ocean flow to give an idea of where to find the flight recorder, but from my memory its beacon would have long since run out of juice.

Bearing in mind that I know nothing about this-- wouldn't the information still be recoverable providing the black-box wasn't destroyed in the accident? Of course finding it would be like trying to find a specific rock on the ocean floor, so obviously that's probably not going to happen...

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Blah. Those in denial will simply say it's a elaborate forgery.

[The Romulan Republic]

Its significant regardless, particularly if it is from MH370. This is a really strange and, to my recollection at least, unprecedented mystery. And I'm sure their are many people, particularly people who are personally involved with this disaster, who would like a definitive answer. You can say it must have crashed all you like, but that's just not the same as seeing the actual wreckage.

Of course, I can understand wanting to believe alternatives that don't leave everyone on the plane dead, but ultimately we have to go with whatever the evidence supports.

[Sea Skimmer]

Bearing in mind that I know nothing about this-- wouldn't the information still be recoverable providing the black-box wasn't destroyed in the accident?

It should be for a period of years, though not decades. The latest units use solid state memory, earlier ones within the timescale of 777 production used magnetic type. in the case of Air France Flight 447 the recorders were recovered after nearly two years and all information extracted. However in that case the search had a vastly better idea of where to look.

This is not as bad as a small rock on the ocean floor, sunken parts of the plane like the engines would be much bigger at least and actually show on area coverage side sonar scans, a data recorder on its own just won't, but in practical terms finding this debris might do nothing to narrow the search area. We don't know ocean currents that well, winds are variable ect... but it would at least confirm the plane was lost in the Indian Ocean if it can be connected. That would be worth something, if not much. We may still have to loose another 777 to know the truth.

[Sea Skimmer]

Edit as of a couple minutes ago someone from Boeing leaked that its been confirmed as a Boeing 777 flaperon. But you know, leak and confirmed, great combo!

Its significant regardless, particularly if it is from MH370. This is a really strange and, to my recollection at least, unprecedented mystery.

Its unprecedented in the context of modern wide body airliners, even if the causes of a few crashes are still disputed (in a not conspiracy kind of way). But a number of very large jet era aircraft are still just missing and the losses unexplained from as recently as 1960s and 70s, including at least one US C-135, a Russian An-22 that crashed off Iceland on radar but not radio, and others. Probably a lot of others, those are just the ones that jump to mind as missing planes.

[Jaepheth]

With memory so cheap and light maybe they should start putting cut-down flight recorders (no transponder) in key positions all around the aircraft running in a RAID so that if you find any one major piece of wreckage and nothing else you'll at least have something to go on.

[Zaune]

On a related note, how come flight recorders aren't fitted with a flotation device and some sea-dye to make it easier to find them in the event of an over-water crash?

[Beowulf]

On a related note, how come flight recorders aren't fitted with a flotation device and some sea-dye to make it easier to find them in the event of an over-water crash?

Then you have to make sure they get separated from wreckage so they can float. Instead of the current standard of just bolting them into the aircraft. And it's another set of things to break. And given that black boxes don't necessarily survive intact (just intact enough to get the data off)...

[Zaune]

Point taken.

[Sea Skimmer]

With memory so cheap and light maybe they should start putting cut-down flight recorders (no transponder) in key positions all around the aircraft running in a RAID so that if you find any one major piece of wreckage and nothing else you'll at least have something to go on.

We put the data recorders in the far tail because that is by far the safest place for them to be. If they were destroyed in the tail section then it is incredibly unlikely that a recorder placed anywhere else would survive. Also adding more devices and wiring is a pretty pointless added weight and expense compared to airlines simply paying for and designers improving upon the inflight data streaming capacity most modern airliners already have.

Malaysian Airlines however wasn't paying for any of that, and the only reason we have even a slight clue of where the aircraft might be is because said system still communicated with its home terminal via satellite to simply say 'I'm here' every half hour. Exactly like a cell phone pinging the tower when no call is being made. However since that ping was never meant to be used as locational data only very rough range and bearing data could be calculated based on how the signal struck the antenna arrays of the satellite.

[Iroscato]

On a related note, how come flight recorders aren't fitted with a flotation device and some sea-dye to make it easier to find them in the event of an over-water crash?

Then you have to make sure they get separated from wreckage so they can float. Instead of the current standard of just bolting them into the aircraft. And it's another set of things to break. And given that black boxes don't necessarily survive intact (just intact enough to get the data off)...

For some reason "water-soluble bolts?" sprang into my head. Probably has something to do with it being 2am here.
Still, just sounding off ideas. Thoughts?

[Broomstick]

Bearing in mind that I know nothing about this-- wouldn't the information still be recoverable providing the black-box wasn't destroyed in the accident? Of course finding it would be like trying to find a specific rock on the ocean floor, so obviously that's probably not going to happen...

Yes, information has been recovered from black boxes years after a crash. Assuming nothing breaches the compartment where the memory resides (and keep in mind, these thing are designed to survive a high-g impact and subsequent jet-fuel fire) the information should still be there.

The big trick, of course, is finding the damn things.

[Venator]

On a related note, how come flight recorders aren't fitted with a flotation device and some sea-dye to make it easier to find them in the event of an over-water crash?

Then you have to make sure they get separated from wreckage so they can float. Instead of the current standard of just bolting them into the aircraft. And it's another set of things to break. And given that black boxes don't necessarily survive intact (just intact enough to get the data off)...

For some reason "water-soluble bolts?" sprang into my head. Probably has something to do with it being 2am here.
Still, just sounding off ideas. Thoughts?

If it's mounted in the tail anyway per Sea Skimmer, you could have it jettisoned (or hell, fired) from the tail in a crash and deploy a flotation system (and/or parachute, if the plane broke up in midair or suffered a collision). I can imagine arguments of weight and complexity (plus, you know, designing the tail of an airplane to fall off in an emergency...) but that's the best system I can imagine to get it clear of the wreckage and in a state to transmit data.

[madd0ct0r]

water soluble bolts are not a good idea. aircraft get very cold, then land somewhere warm. water condenses out of the air, bolts might not last very long.

Attaching it to a big chunk of metal (plane) we can scan for sounds better in the long run then a small flaoting device.

[Thanas]

Far better to have the recorders where they are and just add a small buoy to an aircraft that can float and continually sends GPS coordinates even while in flight.

[Borgholio]

For some reason "water-soluble bolts?" sprang into my head. Probably has something to do with it being 2am here.
Still, just sounding off ideas. Thoughts?

Modern cruise liners and warships have auto-deploying lifeboats that float to the surface and inflate automatically when they detect the ship is going underwater. They're not water-soluble bolts, but they work. Something like that containing a data / voice recorder might not be a bad idea.

[Broomstick]

There are several types of marine emergency equipment that activate when exposed to salt water, as opposed to fresh.

That would not help with an airplane going down over a large freshwater lake, and you don't want something that might be set off by salt in the air in a seaside airport.

[Ziggy Stardust]

That would not help with an airplane going down over a large freshwater lake, and you don't want something that might be set off by salt in the air in a seaside airport.

But doesn't the latter statement apply equally to the ships these are deployed on? If it isn't set off by the air when the ships are docked, I don't see how it could go off on an airplane at a seaside airport.

[Borgholio]

The ones on ships are pressure-sensitive, I believe. Pressure rises too high from sinking too deep underwater, they deploy.

[Sea Skimmer]

Those life rafts work via pressure piston which is crushed once the ship has sunk a couple of meters, and in the process shears a belt which is holding the canister closed, and attaching it to the ship. They are however rather notorious for falling overboard as inopportune times and require more or less daily inspection to be reliable. Nothing that simple would ever be acceptable for an aircraft.

The aircraft operating environment is radically, the force of the slip stream, which itself varies radically depending on speed and altitude, means you need a physical ejection system using power assist to eject anything with reliability, and anything designed to fall off the aircraft will present a constant FOD hazard to other aircraft on the runways and taxiways, a hazard likely to be far greater and far outweigh any advantage that could be gained in rare bizarre accidents. See the French Concord crash for what FOD on a runway can do worst case.

You are talking about a serious setup of hardware overall to be a black box, protective/landing system, some kind of locator beacon so you can ever actually find it as the current sweeps it away, and whatever covers the ejection port. I'd also point out nobody has been able to come up with a much smaller and simpler crash rescue beacon that works worth a damn from aircraft, MH370 had one for all the good that did (failure rates tend to be 70-80%) and they've has been a national requirement for anything seating a significant number of people for decades in the majority of the world.

Seriously, just stream position data to a satellite. That will be good enough to pin down the location of the aircraft to recover the existing and generally highly reliable black box system. If any effort is spent on modding hardware it should be on what's already being negotiated by the relevant parties, a new standard for greater battery life on said boxes own locator beacon. Though said beacons are prone to damage themselves because you can't really crash proof a underwater speaker and still have it functional.