Turkey now against ISIS

[ArmorPierce]

Well that's under the assumption that Turkey was providing direct support to isis which I have argued otherwise. As stated above, American groups were arguing for support of rebel groups in Syria as well

In my opinion, Western ambition is for turkey to carry out policy that benefits the west, simple as that. I don't think there is a grand scheme to break apart turkey, that's just may be the net effect of only considering western interests. For example, requests for Turkish secular military to back off the political process was very predictable to result in more Islamic elements coming to power if other Muslim nations were any indication.

I think the lack of care is fueled by anti Muslim sentiments and suspicion which fosters a us vs them mentality. If turkey was a Christian nation, I strongly feel that there would be calls to support turkeys actions as being a necessity ina chaotic part of the world similar to how Israel is supported.

[Ziggy Stardust]

As Thanas noted, Turkey has a pretty long established history of not being a military threat to the European powers. Even as far back as WWI, the other parties looked down on Turkey with more or less disdain (a disdain that led to several pointless military fiascos on the part of the British, but that's another story). That said, I think the Cold War revitalized interest in the U.S. and Russia in having a stable but ultimately subservient government in Turkey, which does occupy a very strategic geographical position. I think it is due in no small part to the importance engendered on Turkey by the Cold War (and the hangover thereof, not to mention the continued strategic importance of the Middle East in general) that the Western powers (included, but not limited to, the U.S.) continue to look the other way over Turkish transgressions, in order to maintain the military partnership. Just like the U.S. (and others) have done all over the globe for decades.

[Thanas]

Well that's under the assumption that Turkey was providing direct support to isis which I have argued otherwise. As stated above, American groups were arguing for support of rebel groups in Syria as well

What would it take for you to acknowledge the fact that Turkey provided direct support to Isis? Turkey allowing Isis to use its territory for troop movements, Turkey allowing recruits to pass to Isis, Turkey being the largest buyer of Isisi oil, Turkey handing weapons and ammunition over to Isis?

Which of the above would be necessary for you to acknowledge that Turkey directly aided Isis because it was fighting against the Syrians and the Kurds and Erdogan hates both groups?

In my opinion, Western ambition is for turkey to carry out policy that benefits the west, simple as that. I don't think there is a grand scheme to break apart turkey, that's just may be the net effect of only considering western interests. For example, requests for Turkish secular military to back off the political process was very predictable to result in more Islamic elements coming to power if other Muslim nations were any indication.

That is a really shitty example. Turkey wanted to join the EU, allowing fair elections was necessary for that.

I think the lack of care is fueled by anti Muslim sentiments and suspicion which fosters a us vs them mentality. If turkey was a Christian nation, I strongly feel that there would be calls to support turkeys actions as being a necessity ina chaotic part of the world similar to how Israel is supported.

Oh you mean how the West completely supported the invasion of Iraq because the US was a christian nation? Oh wait, that did not happen.

[K. A. Pital]

Oh you mean how the West completely supported the invasion of Iraq because the US was a christian nation? Oh wait, that did not happen.

To be fair, Germany and France dissented - but could not change anything, pretty much how Romania dissented when the USSR moved forces into Czechoslovakia. Germany has since decided to move "past" the Iraq issue and return to business as usual with the US. Same goes for France, who even went back into the NATO command.

That's the key lesson: big powerful imperialists like the US can act with impunity and, because of their financial and economic dominance, will anyway be "good partners" just a bit later, and will always remain "good friends".

[Thanas]

Sure, but I don't see how this proves his point which is that if Turkey were a christian nation the West would support it. Which honestly they already are and being Christian does not matter. The west will support who they think is more powerful/more important. Religion doesn't enter into it much, see Saudi-Arabia.

[madd0ct0r]

Yeah. there was not much effort made when ISIS wiped out the christian enclaves.

[ArmorPierce]

Well that's under the assumption that Turkey was providing direct support to isis which I have argued otherwise. As stated above, American groups were arguing for support of rebel groups in Syria as well

What would it take for you to acknowledge the fact that Turkey provided direct support to Isis? Turkey allowing Isis to use its territory for troop movements, Turkey allowing recruits to pass to Isis, Turkey being the largest buyer of Isisi oil, Turkey handing weapons and ammunition over to Isis?

Which of the above would be necessary for you to acknowledge that Turkey directly aided Isis because it was fighting against the Syrians and the Kurds and Erdogan hates both groups?

Can you demonstrate that they provided any preferential treatment to members of ISIS and provided weapons and ammunition to ISIS since international opinion turned decidedly against ISIS. When did that happen, towards the middle of 2014?

Oh you mean how the West completely supported the invasion of Iraq because the US was a christian nation? Oh wait, that did not happen.

The west pretty much did allow the United States to invade Iraq and there hasn't been any repercussions for doing so. I'm also not necessarily speaking about the political policies, I'm also referencing to public opinion. In the United States, Americans were over overwhelmingly in favor of the invasion of Iraq. This board was over-overwhelmingly in favor of the war in Iraq... or at least they were the most vocal about it.

In terms of public opinion, I see very few people supporting Turkey, whereas I see plenty foaming at the mouth in defense of Israel's actions... in this instance I'm speaking in reference to public opinion in the United States. If Israel was a muslim nation it is very obviously that public opinion would be different.

[ArmorPierce]

I want to clarify that I do recognize that public perceptions to vary from nation to nation so it is difficult to bucket the entire west together. And individual opinion will differ from another's individual as well as the reasons that they may have come to the same conclusion.

To build on the analogy of the public perceptions of Israel vs Turkey, How does the Turkish treatment of the Kurds differ from the Israeli treatment of Palestinians?

According to U.N. Security Council decisions, Israel is an occupying force in the West Bank and Gaza, in which Hamas operates.
In Turkey however, the Kurdish areas are art of Turkey’s internationally recognized borders... Turkey is not an occupier.

Kurds are part of Turkey, and were part of the previous state... the historical legitimacy of the nation's borders is stronger than that of Israel's. Kurds are citizens. Palestinians in the occupied territory are not considered Israelis, but they are not being afforded the rights and protections that occupied territories are supposed to have. For instance the transfer of folks in occupied territory, ie the settlements. If it is now annexed territories (illegal too).

So why the difference in public perception of Turkey compared to Israel?

[K. A. Pital]

So why the difference in public perception of Turkey compared to Israel?

I think that there is no difference in perception among the left-wing. Right-wing, obviously, supports both Israel and Turkey. I am not sure that the Western left supports Israel or its view of Israel differs that much from its view of Turkey.

[Channel72]

I essentially agree with ArmorPierce. All the evidence of Turkey aiding ISIL is really no more "damning" than what the US did in terms of "ignoring" or "enabling" ISIL before they became a household name.

From cosmicalstorm's earlier artice:

NATO member Turkey has long been accused by experts, Kurds, and even Joe Biden of enabling ISIS by turning a blind eye to the vast smuggling networks of weapons and fighters during the ongoing Syrian war.

The move by the ruling AKP party was apparently part of ongoing attempts to trigger the downfall of Syrian President Bashar Assad's regime.

So, in other words, Erdogan wants Assad gone (doesn't everybody?), and also wants the Kurds crippled, so they ignored ISIL since ISIL was helping out with those goals. This isn't that much different from US support of the FSA, Shia militias, or other "questionable" groups which have certain overlapping geopolitical goals with the US in Syria or Iraq. So the Turks don't like the Kurds/PKK, and neither do ISIL, so they enabled ISIL by allowing them access to Turkish territory in order to further the goal of weakening the Kurds.

Yeah, so in other words, the Turks hate Group A, so they helped out Group B - who also hates Group A. Except then Group B's insane homicidal psychosis got plastered all over international headlines. Oops. Don't you hate it when that happens? We Americans sure do... it happens to us all the time.

[Thanas]

Can you demonstrate that they provided any preferential treatment to members of ISIS and provided weapons and ammunition to ISIS since international opinion turned decidedly against ISIS. When did that happen, towards the middle of 2014?

Sure I can. Read this piece from November 2014 and then claim with a straight face again ISIS is not getting preferential treatment from the Turks.. And guess what happened in June 2015? A journalist writing about Turkish ties to ISIS was prosecuted and the prosecutor asked for a life sentence. Great.

So why the difference in public perception of Turkey compared to Israel?

There is no difference in public perception of Turkey or Israel in Germany, both are viewed as states that should do a lot more to be really seen as civilized nations.

[wautd]

This might not be the most accurate topic title considering Turkey so far bombed dozens of PKK targets and 2 (give or take?) ISIS targets

[madd0ct0r]

now that would be a good argument if can source it...

[wautd]

Link

Turkey enters the battle against ISIS, but it's real target seems to be the Kurds

On the heels of a major suicide bombing in the border town of Suruç a couple weeks ago, Turkey has officially joined the war against ISIS—though it’s not clear what it actually aims to achieve. Turkey and its leader Recep Tayyip Erdogan were riding high just a few years ago, with a strong economy and a growing international profile. Now the country’s economy is tumbling, and its politics are fragmenting. These 5 facts explain Turkey’s various motivations for going to war. Be warned—they’re complicated.

1. A Faltering Economy

Until recently, Turkey was an emerging market darling. In 2010, its economy was growing at a robust 9.2 percent. But by 2013, GDP growth had fallen to 4.1 percent. The slowdown has continued, and growth for 2015 is now forecast at 3.1 percent, which may actually be a generous estimate. Unemployment in the country has reached 11 percent, the highest rate in 5 years.

It’s not clear that joining the fight against ISIS will directly help Turkey’s economy. In fact, it probably won’t—fighting wars, especially open-ended ones, cost money. But it will distract a populace that’s growing increasingly unsettled by the economy’s slowdown.

(IMF World Economic Outlook, Bloomberg, Global Peace Index)


2. Stumbling AKP

The slowing economy has also upended the country’s politics. Turkey was a secular Muslim country for nearly a century until 2002, when Erdogan’s Islamic Justice and Development Party (AKP) rose to power. It went on to win four consecutive elections, peaking at 49.9 percent in 2011, while presiding over a booming economy. Since then Erdogan has seen his personal popularity plunge from 71 percent to 37.5 percent today. Support for the AKP dropped nearly 10 percent in elections this past June, and the party lost an absolute legislative majority it had enjoyed for 13 years. Who capitalized on the AKP’s poor election performance? The pro-Kurdish HDP, which entered parliament for the first time by capturing 13 percent of the vote. (Political parties must win at least 10 percent of the vote in Turkey in order to enter the legislature.)

Now the AKP must choose between inviting an opposition party to join a coalition government or calling early elections to try to regain its majority. Joining the ISIS war effort serves two political aims: it tarnishes the HDP by associating the party with Kurdish separatist groups accused of terrorism, and it drums up enough nationalist sentiment to peel off votes from the far-right Nationalist Movement Pary. Erdogan will watch the polls. If the AKP’s numbers rise toward 50 percent, he’s likely to push for another vote.

(Brookings, Guardian, Al-Jazeera, Reuters)

3. Syrian Refugees in Turkey

Turkey is currently providing shelter for nearly 2 million Syrian refugees, and that figure is projected to rise another 500,000 by the end of 2015. Put another way, more than half of the 4 million Syrians who have fled their country during the civil war now reside in Turkey. Ankara has established 25 refugee camps, and reports say they are relatively well-run. The problem is the cost—Ankara estimates that it has spent nearly $5.6 billion on refugees since the beginning of the crisis. Combined with its flagging economy, it is not clear how much longer Turkey can continue shouldering the burden. The sooner the fighting in Syria ends, the sooner these refugees can return home.

(European Commission, UNHCR, Al-Jazeera)

4. Violent History with the PKK

Now things start to get murky. On July 20, an ISIS suicide bomb ripped through the Turkish town of Suruç, killing 32 people. The victims were supporters of the Kurdistan Workers Party (PKK), the Kurdish separatist party based in Turkey and affiliated with the People’s Protection Units (YPG), the Kurdish group currently battling ISIS in Syria. After the Suruç attack, some Turks blamed the AKP government for not protecting the country against terrorism, while Turkish Kurds have accused the government of being complicit in the attacks. They claim that Erdogan’s government has tolerated ISIS attacks on Kurds because ISIS militants threaten Syria’s Bashar al-Assad, Turkey’s enemy, and also prevent Kurds from gaining ground in Syria that might help them to eventually create a larger Kurdish homeland in the region.

Erdogan may have declared war on ISIS to blunt criticism that he is soft on terrorism, but this bombing really speaks to the long strained relationship between Turks and Kurds. The Kurds are a sizeable ethnic minority in the region that have been agitating for independence for decades. The last 40 years have been marred by Turkish-Kurdish violence, claiming the lives of 40,000 people. A ceasefire was reached in March 2013, but it didn’t last long. According to Turkish security authorities, the PKK has carried out over 2,000 acts of violence in 2015 alone.

(Reuters, Wall Street Journal, Middle East Monitor)

5. A War Against…Whom?

It’s obvious that Ankara is alarmed by the progress Kurdish fighters in Syria are making against ISIS and Assad, which they fear will only stoke the independence dreams of Turkish Kurds. In response to the Suruç bombing, Turkish police launched security raids across the country, rounding up more than 1,300 suspects in a matter of days. But the number of PKK militants detained outnumber ISIS affiliates more than 6 to 1. Between July 23 and July 26, 75 Turkish jets flew 155 sorties against 400 or so PKK targets. Number of ISIS targets hit? Three.

Officially joining the war against ISIS will give Turkey the cover it needs to bomb the Kurdish separatists carving out territories along the Turkish border. And it seems Washington is willing to ignore attacks on Kurds in exchange for US access to the Incirlik airbase, useful for bombing ISIS inside Iraq. Only time will tell if Turkey and America’s political and military strategies will pay off.

[Thanas]

Well, wondering what the Turkish apologists got to say about that.

[Thanas]

BTW, this is an excellent, if long, article about the real aims of Turkey here.
Link.