WoW: Warlords of Draenor

GEC: Discuss gaming, computers and electronics and venture into the bizarre world of STGODs.

Moderator: Thanas

User avatar
Lord Revan
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 12235
Joined: 2004-05-20 02:23pm
Location: Zone:classified

Re: WoW: Warlords of Draenor

Post by Lord Revan »

Kuja wrote:
Why are the Horde Demon Hunters Belfs and not High Elves?
Because politically, the high elves that are left are all Alliance-aligned - either part of the expedition to Draenor (and thus cut off from the events of Warcraft 3) or part of Dalaran (the Silver Covenant). Also back in the BC days Illidan was trying to train a bunch of Kael's blood elves to be demon hunters which is where that one boss in Serpentshrine came from, so presumably these new guys stem from that lot.
well this one the more complex parts of Warcraft lore but the guys Illidan hang around (most of which became the naga) were highborne nightelves which are to lowborne night elves to what Blood Elves are to the high elves (aka mostly cultural difference).

now after the sundering the surviving highborne went to 3 different directions
  1. followed Queen Azshara and became the naga
  2. went into hiding and most of which were later reabsorbed into night elf society during cataclysm
  3. Followed Lord(later King) Dath'remar Sunstrider and became high elves
Illidan's highborne buddies came for most part from categories 1 and 2, so they would either be neutral (the naga) or alliance allied (surviving highborne). Only horde-allied source for demon hunters would any of the belf demon hunters being trained at the black temple.
I may be an idiot, but I'm a tolerated idiot
"I think you completely missed the point of sigs. They're supposed to be completely homegrown in the fertile hydroponics lab of your mind, dried in your closet, rolled, and smoked...
Oh wait, that's marijuana..."Einhander Sn0m4n
User avatar
Civil War Man
NERRRRRDS!!!
Posts: 3790
Joined: 2005-01-28 03:54am

Re: WoW: Warlords of Draenor

Post by Civil War Man »

TheFeniX wrote:Ugh, DK Relic weapon is an axe. Axe animations are always shit due to the grip point making zero sense.
Just for one DK spec, since each spec is supposedly going to get their own artifact. It's probably for Blood DKs, judging from the flavor text about its first wielder using it to bleed his enemies to sustain himself. It's not on the web page, but the Gamescon reveal had them mention that the Frost DK artifact involves the player recovering the shards of Frostmourne and reforging them into a pair of runeblades.

Which is kind of a neat idea, I guess, though it's basically telling 2H Frost that they can either dual-wield, respec Unholy and put up with having a pet, or fuck off.
Grumman
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 2488
Joined: 2011-12-10 09:13am

Re: WoW: Warlords of Draenor

Post by Grumman »

Kuja wrote:That's all Blizzard has going for it nowadays; banging and crashing as hard as they can on the nostalgia drum. Their biggest cash cows, HOTS and Hearthstone and WoW are running on little more than nostalgia and inertia.
They're also working on Overwatch. Unfortunately, Overwatch looks to be about as deep as a puddle. It's a new IP, but gameplay wise it seems to be about doing the same few things over and over.
User avatar
Civil War Man
NERRRRRDS!!!
Posts: 3790
Joined: 2005-01-28 03:54am

Re: WoW: Warlords of Draenor

Post by Civil War Man »

A bit more details about some stuff with Legion

Here are some pretty big reveals from the interview in terms of gameplay:
- No weapon drops. At all. You get the artifact early on, then spend the rest of the expansion leveling it up. The weapon increases with power as you do more stuff, instead of being replaced with a newer model once you pass a certain threshold.
- A lot of specs are being reworked. For Hunter, for example, Beast Mastery keeps being about shooting things while having a pet, Marksmanship will be shooting things without a pet, and Survival is being redesigned as a melee spec. In Warlock news, Demonology is going to become more Beast Mastery but with Demons, since Demon Hunters are coming and reclaiming Metamorphosis. Based on this and the previous announcement, I can only assume that Frost DK is becoming dual-wield only, and Fury Warriors are going to lose either Titan's Grip or SMF depending on what they get.
- Demon Hunters will probably start at level 95 or 100, and at least for now will only be able to wield glaives. They will wear leather, but the devs don't feel like having a glut of agility leather wearers (between Rogues, Brewmaster and Windwalker Monks, Feral and Guardian Druids, and now Demon Hunters) is a problem because they implemented personal loot, which means most players don't directly compete for drops anymore.

My first impression is that Blizzard is pretty much blowing their load on this expansion. The players are becoming the paragons of their respective classes and becoming the new wielders of weapons of legendary power. I mean, we have Paladins wielding Ashbringer, Shaman wielding Doomhammer, Death Knights wielding (sort of) Frostmourne, Mages wielding Felo'melorn, probably have Arms Warriors get something like Gorehowl, etc. They are going to be wielding these legendary weapons to personally lead the most elite members of their classes (they directly compared, in so many words, the Class Orders and the NPC Champions the players get to the Knights of the Round Table) in a war to defeat a massive invasion by an infinite army of demons. Plus there will be confrontations with several remaining threats that are in some way connected to the Legion, like Azshara or the Emerald Nightmare.

There's not going to be many places to go after this one regardless of how the finished expansion turns out. If they pull off even half the stuff they are promising here, Legion's going to be a tough act to follow and any threat that comes after will feel like small potatoes in comparison. And if they fail to pull it off, then the game's going to be in a really bad spot because the devs will have botched the battle against the big overarching threat of the entire Warcraft franchise.
User avatar
TheFeniX
Sith Marauder
Posts: 4869
Joined: 2003-06-26 04:24pm
Location: Texas

Re: WoW: Warlords of Draenor

Post by TheFeniX »

Civil War Man wrote:Which is kind of a neat idea, I guess, though it's basically telling 2H Frost that they can either dual-wield, respec Unholy and put up with having a pet, or fuck off.
They've been trying to kill 2h Frost since... what, Cata? It's consistently been behind DW except in early expansion when you get high enough above the par rating. It's usually strong early expansion, then loses out almost immediately (as DKs do in general as they scale for shit) when the amount of Mastery you get for DW vs the amount of Haste for 2h (as it no longer reduced the GCD and you couldn't UH Presence anymore). Even in Cata, Haste DW far outperformed 2H Haste even using the same OB/game a rune bullshit. Fucking MasterFrost DKs talking shit about me: "bet your DPS is shit Fen." Ha!

I think this has to do with them wanting at least one DK spec to DW for the course, but also due to PvP balance (ugh). 2h Frost suffers in many areas in PvP, but back in cata: the burst potential was insane. The crit DR was atrocious, but with enough haste (or Killing Machine procs) it just didn't matter because you could outbreak and fire off 6 Obliterates (with Empowered Rune Weapon, but I usually didn't even need that except for healers) before most classes could even react. I used to run with a rogue, one stun and a smoke bomb (before they gutted it) and you were toast, unless you were a tank, saw it coming, and had CDs already going. I don't care how geared you were.

They tried to fix this by gutting Haste for Frost, but they made Crit valuable. At a certain gear level in PvP, you could get multiple OB crits (even without KM procs) and even though they came slower, you could cave someone's HP in if you could get hands on them and outbreak was off-CD. I noticed this in the little PvP I did in Pandaland. Anyone stupid enough to not tunnel/CC me/kite like mad (basically, terrible PvPers) exploded near instantly if I could get a couple GCDs on them. If you couldn't force a 2h Frost DK to eat dirt or swap into Blood Presence: you were pretty much dead. No other class I can think of could do that except Warriors and Locks allowed to free cast Chaos Bolts. And Warriors are always allowed to global you per Blizzard SOP and it still took Locks more time to put up those numbers.

So, they basically had to keep that burst in check (for some fucking reason I will never understand since I had to actually touch you to kill you and DK mobility is just so so so so so bad), the problem is Frost 2h sustained DPS (same issue Retadins have always had when wings are on CD) is garbage and their AOE DPS is even worse when compared to the free cleaves DW MasterFrost had. I'd get called out for padding my DPS by pugs constantly. Always worth a laugh.

Sorry for the rant, but anyways: this makes perfect sense. They've wanted to kill 2h Frost for years, but players kept doing it. Now they really have no choice.
User avatar
Civil War Man
NERRRRRDS!!!
Posts: 3790
Joined: 2005-01-28 03:54am

Re: WoW: Warlords of Draenor

Post by Civil War Man »

TheFeniX wrote:Sorry for the rant, but anyways: this makes perfect sense. They've wanted to kill 2h Frost for years, but players kept doing it. Now they really have no choice.
Yeah, I can buy them wanting to kill 2H Frost. The only reason I played it post-Wrath was because they removed Blood DPS from the game. Still, it's sad to see it go, because unless they give Unholy the option to play without the ghoul a la Grimoire of Sacrifice or Lone Wolf, or resurrect Blood DPS with a Gladiator Stance-esque ability, there is no option for people who want to DPS as a DK with a 2-handed weapon and no pet. It's basically "Either shut up and deal with it or reroll Arms Warrior".

Of course, that may very well be the final verdict, since it looks like Lone Wolf's getting removed (since the link I posted had them explicitly define whether or not a Hunter spec would have a pet or not) and Grimoire of Sacrifice is probably not going to be far behind (since Demo is apparently becoming Beast Mastery Warlock, which makes a "play with no pet" talent look out of place). No sign yet on Gladiator Stance's fate, but I imagine it also won't last long since they appear to be trimming out alternate play styles within specs with the rationale of making the specs in each class more distinct from each other (like only have 2 Demon Hunter specs and turning Survival Hunters into a melee spec).
User avatar
TheFeniX
Sith Marauder
Posts: 4869
Joined: 2003-06-26 04:24pm
Location: Texas

Re: WoW: Warlords of Draenor

Post by TheFeniX »

Civil War Man wrote:Yeah, I can buy them wanting to kill 2H Frost. The only reason I played it post-Wrath was because they removed Blood DPS from the game. Still, it's sad to see it go, because unless they give Unholy the option to play without the ghoul a la Grimoire of Sacrifice or Lone Wolf, or resurrect Blood DPS with a Gladiator Stance-esque ability, there is no option for people who want to DPS as a DK with a 2-handed weapon and no pet. It's basically "Either shut up and deal with it or reroll Arms Warrior".
I'm with you. I loved 2h frost. I love the Male Dranaei 2h animations. I loved everything about the spec.... except the damage. It's the reverse for me with Arms Warrior. Even with shit gear, I could put up stupidly high numbers just by smashing my face on the keyboard in LFR.... which doesn't mean much since DW Frost is the most brain-dead spec in the game. Still fun for some reason.

I finally had to give up on 2h Frost when we got to Baelroc in Firelands. We just couldn't beat the DPS check and there was poor-widdle Fenix doing 18k... bottom of the DPS charts. I had gone through my gear, gems, enchants, everything. I was set to go. I figured I'd lose my raid spot that following Sunday. I dug around, at my gear level, gaming runes, not gaming runes, procs/no procs, I could maximize my DPS...... to around 18K. Bullshit, I asked around "go MasterFrost nub." I didn't have the money to rework my Haste build into Mastery. Not only the gems/enchants, but also just a lot of my gear was BiS for Haste.

They didn't boot me even though I was a ringer for the raid. Except this time I came back and did 21K and we downed the boss handily. I literally did nothing but swap my 378 2h for a 372PvP MH and a crafted 365 OH (thank you Nubira for having the recipes). That's it besides reforging my new hit/exp caps. I ran the same rotation except with DW, I didn't even have to game a rune, I just never used an unholy rune unless blood plague fell off and Outbreak was on CD. This is because I now never ran out of resources. I had zero dead spots, unlike 2h. Sure, my OBs did less damage, but I threw 1.5-2 of them for every 1 I'd throw as 2h.

Fucking. Ridiculous. I like DW, but I also liked having options. Blizz ain't big on options these days.

Anyways, Unholy is "meh" and I had to have a tank spec because DPS queue times for dungeons was bullshit and my raid team sometimes needed me to OT and I couldn't if my Pally was already locked. They'd get mad but fuck them, none of them ever invested anything in gearing my pally up, so I can pug on him whenever the fuck I want.
User avatar
RogueIce
_______
Posts: 13387
Joined: 2003-01-05 01:36am
Location: Tampa Bay, Florida, USA
Contact:

Re: WoW: Warlords of Draenor

Post by RogueIce »

Every time I see TheFeniX post in an MMO thread, I probably understand less than 20% of what he's saying, heh. Damn all these acronyms and shorthand and everything else.

I'm such an MMO n00b. :(

Anyway, all I can think of when I see the Legion stuff is, "Oh look, they're redoing WarCraft III!" Just like WoD was "WarCraft II 1/2: WarCraft Harder". Am I off in this assessment?
Image
"How can I wait unknowing?
This is the price of war,
We rise with noble intentions,
And we risk all that is pure..." - Angela & Jeff van Dyck, Forever (Rome: Total War)

"On and on, through the years,
The war continues on..." - Angela & Jeff van Dyck, We Are All One (Medieval 2: Total War)
"Courage is not the absence of fear, but rather the judgment that something else is more important than fear." - Ambrose Redmoon
"You either die a hero, or you live long enough to see yourself become the villain." - Harvey Dent, The Dark Knight
User avatar
Civil War Man
NERRRRRDS!!!
Posts: 3790
Joined: 2005-01-28 03:54am

Re: WoW: Warlords of Draenor

Post by Civil War Man »

RogueIce wrote:Anyway, all I can think of when I see the Legion stuff is, "Oh look, they're redoing WarCraft III!" Just like WoD was "WarCraft II 1/2: WarCraft Harder". Am I off in this assessment?
This is not an entirely inaccurate assessment, at least. They just "merely a setback"-ed Illidan's death in Burning Crusade for the expansion and Khadgar was acting a bit like WC3 Medivh in the trailer. It's not a direct copypasta, but there are definite similarities.
User avatar
Lord Revan
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 12235
Joined: 2004-05-20 02:23pm
Location: Zone:classified

Re: WoW: Warlords of Draenor

Post by Lord Revan »

Civil War Man wrote:
RogueIce wrote:Anyway, all I can think of when I see the Legion stuff is, "Oh look, they're redoing WarCraft III!" Just like WoD was "WarCraft II 1/2: WarCraft Harder". Am I off in this assessment?
This is not an entirely inaccurate assessment, at least. They just "merely a setback"-ed Illidan's death in Burning Crusade for the expansion and Khadgar was acting a bit like WC3 Medivh in the trailer. It's not a direct copypasta, but there are definite similarities.
which may or may not be a bad thing depending on how they repecent it, if they go "see this is like Warcraft 3 so it's cool" you'll end up with WoD 2.0, but if they do it so that it's similar but still unique then it could work.

besides Illidan was a half-demon and we've known since vanilla that death is cheap for demons.
I may be an idiot, but I'm a tolerated idiot
"I think you completely missed the point of sigs. They're supposed to be completely homegrown in the fertile hydroponics lab of your mind, dried in your closet, rolled, and smoked...
Oh wait, that's marijuana..."Einhander Sn0m4n
User avatar
Lord Revan
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 12235
Joined: 2004-05-20 02:23pm
Location: Zone:classified

Re: WoW: Warlords of Draenor

Post by Lord Revan »

Looks like they're gonna do what they did with monks and give us an additional char slot which is good for me as I don't want to hae delete any of my chars to play Demon Hunter.
I may be an idiot, but I'm a tolerated idiot
"I think you completely missed the point of sigs. They're supposed to be completely homegrown in the fertile hydroponics lab of your mind, dried in your closet, rolled, and smoked...
Oh wait, that's marijuana..."Einhander Sn0m4n
User avatar
TheFeniX
Sith Marauder
Posts: 4869
Joined: 2003-06-26 04:24pm
Location: Texas

Re: WoW: Warlords of Draenor

Post by TheFeniX »

RogueIce wrote:Every time I see TheFeniX post in an MMO thread, I probably understand less than 20% of what he's saying, heh. Damn all these acronyms and shorthand and everything else.
Yea, I rant about stupid shit a lot. To sum that up: for most melee/physical DPS classes, weapon damage is king and a higher iLvL (Item Level) nearly always means "equip this right now, it's better than what you have."

Two lower ILvL weapons replacing a higher ILvL weapon leading to a 15% increase in damage showed how poorly 2-handed Frost scaled vs Dual-wield. And one was a PvP weapon, which meant I was picking up a useless secondary stat (the PvP stat) instead of a useful PvE one. Dual-Wield was just (and still was when I quit in late-Pandaland), scores ahead of 2h Frost. Blizzard was basically telling Frost players to Dual-Wield or live with shit DPS. And man, did I see a lot of 2h Frost DKs with gear much better than mine getting blown away by me constantly. On anything but single-target only fights, they weren't even in the same ballpark.

Oh, and my basic rotation was two buttons once I got to a certain gear level. It wasn't even worth keeping blood plague up (a damage-over-time ability and part of the "core" DPS mechanic for Death Knights) because wasting a GCD (Global Cooldown: a timer to keep you from being able to just spam buttons/abilities) on a Plague Strike to apply it was a DPS loss. Blizzard really fucked Frost DKs up in Pandland and never bothered fixing them. I heard it got better in Warlords, but I never bothered with the expansion. Even with all that bullshit, I do miss my DK (and my WoW Pally, FFXIV Pallies did get a lot of flavour in the new expansion though).

Meanwhile, Warriors were allowed to have viable builds for Fury for both Dual-Wielding 1-handers and Titan-Gripping 2 2-handers. 2 1-handers did more damage, but they were both pretty close (within 5% last I looked). But Warriors are allowed to have flavor.
User avatar
Broomstick
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 28831
Joined: 2004-01-02 07:04pm
Location: Industrial armpit of the US Midwest

Re: WoW: Warlords of Draenor

Post by Broomstick »

Civil War Man wrote:1. The current subscriber count (5.6 million) is the same as it was back in December 2005, before the release of the Gates of Ahn'Qiraj patch in Vanilla.
5.6 million subscribers is still a fuckton of people. If WoW is dying it's still going to take awhile before the lights go out for the final time.
A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. Leonard Nimoy.

Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job. And then I get paid.- Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity, which sums up my feelings regarding the lawsuit discussed here.

If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. - John F. Kennedy

Sam Vimes Theory of Economic Injustice
User avatar
Lord Revan
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 12235
Joined: 2004-05-20 02:23pm
Location: Zone:classified

Re: WoW: Warlords of Draenor

Post by Lord Revan »

TheFeniX wrote:
RogueIce wrote:Every time I see TheFeniX post in an MMO thread, I probably understand less than 20% of what he's saying, heh. Damn all these acronyms and shorthand and everything else.
Yea, I rant about stupid shit a lot. To sum that up: for most melee/physical DPS classes, weapon damage is king and a higher iLvL (Item Level) nearly always means "equip this right now, it's better than what you have."

Two lower ILvL weapons replacing a higher ILvL weapon leading to a 15% increase in damage showed how poorly 2-handed Frost scaled vs Dual-wield. And one was a PvP weapon, which meant I was picking up a useless secondary stat (the PvP stat) instead of a useful PvE one. Dual-Wield was just (and still was when I quit in late-Pandaland), scores ahead of 2h Frost. Blizzard was basically telling Frost players to Dual-Wield or live with shit DPS. And man, did I see a lot of 2h Frost DKs with gear much better than mine getting blown away by me constantly. On anything but single-target only fights, they weren't even in the same ballpark.

Oh, and my basic rotation was two buttons once I got to a certain gear level. It wasn't even worth keeping blood plague up (a damage-over-time ability and part of the "core" DPS mechanic for Death Knights) because wasting a GCD (Global Cooldown: a timer to keep you from being able to just spam buttons/abilities) on a Plague Strike to apply it was a DPS loss. Blizzard really fucked Frost DKs up in Pandland and never bothered fixing them. I heard it got better in Warlords, but I never bothered with the expansion. Even with all that bullshit, I do miss my DK (and my WoW Pally, FFXIV Pallies did get a lot of flavour in the new expansion though).

Meanwhile, Warriors were allowed to have viable builds for Fury for both Dual-Wielding 1-handers and Titan-Gripping 2 2-handers. 2 1-handers did more damage, but they were both pretty close (within 5% last I looked). But Warriors are allowed to have flavor.
necrotic plague makes plague strike more or less unless for frost DKs (I use it only to get enough runic power for frost strike if I'm low)
I may be an idiot, but I'm a tolerated idiot
"I think you completely missed the point of sigs. They're supposed to be completely homegrown in the fertile hydroponics lab of your mind, dried in your closet, rolled, and smoked...
Oh wait, that's marijuana..."Einhander Sn0m4n
User avatar
TheFeniX
Sith Marauder
Posts: 4869
Joined: 2003-06-26 04:24pm
Location: Texas

Re: WoW: Warlords of Draenor

Post by TheFeniX »

Necrotic Plague smacks of Blizzard adding more foam to the padded helmet Frost DKs are required to wear. Seems pretty DPS neutral and exists solely to simplify an already braindead spec. Unless it was a considerable DPS gain (like 5% or more), I'd take Sindragosa's Breath over it just to breath Unholy Fire in my enemy's face. Same reason I took Light's Hammer for my Paladin: it just looks cool even though Execution Sentence was better for single-target fights. But since I could top DPS charts in normals (as a Ret Paladin......), no one cared.

I could see it having a lot of use in PvP though. On demand Plague Leeches and a free-spreading and stacking DoT, with the ability to be applied at range, has to have multiple uses.
Broomstick wrote:5.6 million subscribers is still a fuckton of people. If WoW is dying it's still going to take awhile before the lights go out for the final time.
Granted, but this now gives Blizzard more incentive to continue focusing on bullshit hype for short-term subscriber gains and cash-grabs rather than focusing on retention. And it looks like this is what Legion is shaping up to be: Grab subs based on nostalgia. They couldn't be bothered to make WoD enjoyable or expansive enough for people to stick around (Your whole game is now raid-or-die or you have 3 raids...) because "No resources." Legion isn't going to be better.

I have no idea about the mentality going on at Blizz/WoW HQ, but from the outside it seems as if they have zero respect for their playerbase. They are still stringing people along with the idea that flying is coming sometime... somewhere in the future. No concrete release date and WoD is already in the "fuck around because there's nothing to do" mode.

This shit reminds me of when Battlefield 2 was still suffering from multiple server and client-side bugs, one patch was (literally) bricking people's PCs due to overwriting critical Windows files, and the unlock system still had the playerbase rioting. EA took this time to announce Battlefield: Vietnam, a paid expansion. It was basically a "Fuck you" to the playerbase. I feel Blizzard is in the same boat right now: "Fuck you, pay me."
User avatar
Broomstick
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 28831
Joined: 2004-01-02 07:04pm
Location: Industrial armpit of the US Midwest

Re: WoW: Warlords of Draenor

Post by Broomstick »

Taking away flying was one of the fucking stupidest decisions made by Blizzard. Honestly, what the fuck? Who the hell thought that was a good idea?
A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. Leonard Nimoy.

Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job. And then I get paid.- Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity, which sums up my feelings regarding the lawsuit discussed here.

If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. - John F. Kennedy

Sam Vimes Theory of Economic Injustice
User avatar
TheFeniX
Sith Marauder
Posts: 4869
Joined: 2003-06-26 04:24pm
Location: Texas

Re: WoW: Warlords of Draenor

Post by TheFeniX »

At this point, based on what I've read re-posted from blues and Twitter, beta testers, people I've talked to who actually play, and other posters (some of the shitposting variety, so finding good info from these people is hard):

1. There just was not enough content to support flying at either early levels or at max level. The whole point was to slow progress down as a gating mechanic to extend the length of leveling time and shit like farming rares, resources, doing dailies (what little there are), etc. They backed themselves into a corner because the main reason these activities take any time what-so-ever is because the zones are only designed to punish players on the ground. People with Aviana's Feather talk about bypassing huge packs of mobs and cutting their grinding time down considerably.

2. The Garrison: they told the playerbase this "optional" activity was so fucking fun you'd never want to leave. And since Blizzard reads "we forced 90% of the playerbase to do X so X must be enjoyable," they rigged the numbers to give them the result they want by making traversing the world excruciating, but also giving the players options to bypass the need through the Garrison.

3. People out in the world exploring or doing content are not sitting in their garrison playing Facebook games while they rot in LFR queues. They are also not using Raid Finder.

4. With all the content cut and rush to make the release date, a lot of the areas are not in any condition to be viewed from above.

If the whole reason your "content" is annoying or takes time to accomplish is due to travel speed or people skipping mobs: you done fucked up. But to Blizzard, time spent = content and there's still more than enough people who think AFKing on a taxi is something that shouldn't have been cut as an artifact of an old system.
Darmalus
Jedi Master
Posts: 1131
Joined: 2007-06-16 09:28am
Location: Mountain View, California

Re: WoW: Warlords of Draenor

Post by Darmalus »

I'd have to disagree on #4 there. Aside from a few buggy spots, WoD was shipped flying-complete, just minus the ability to fly on your mount. Using the Aviana's Feather item (launched you high into the air and gave a 2 minute glide) it really shows just how damn tiny the world is. They use the trick where you can't travel in a straight line most places to make it seem bigger a lot.

Viewed from above, the world is as pretty as any other zone (kudos to the art team) just really small.
bilateralrope
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 6167
Joined: 2005-06-25 06:50pm
Location: New Zealand

Re: WoW: Warlords of Draenor

Post by bilateralrope »

TheFeniX wrote:Granted, but this now gives Blizzard more incentive to continue focusing on bullshit hype for short-term subscriber gains and cash-grabs rather than focusing on retention. And it looks like this is what Legion is shaping up to be: Grab subs based on nostalgia. They couldn't be bothered to make WoD enjoyable or expansive enough for people to stick around (Your whole game is now raid-or-die or you have 3 raids...) because "No resources." Legion isn't going to be better.
Or maybe Blizzard has decided to ignore the players who have left and focus on the players who remain. Which means more of the same, because Blizzard thinks that's what the remaining players like.
User avatar
Broomstick
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 28831
Joined: 2004-01-02 07:04pm
Location: Industrial armpit of the US Midwest

Re: WoW: Warlords of Draenor

Post by Broomstick »

Not just Aviana's Feather - an engineering shed in your garrison will produce rockets to launch you upwards in much the same way, even if not every day, and between that, cliffs, and goblin gliders I do a fair amount of mob-bypassing, short-cutting, and "flying" myself. I get the argument that we aren't talking about a huge land area, the gating, etc. - so sure, I'm on board with the "Draenor Pathfinder" achievement which makes you experience it from the ground first, but once you get to max level and experience all that making flying available both for the max main and for leveling alts also makes sense. The pattern of walk/ride first, fly later was established way back with Burning Crusade. It was the "ha-ha-ha - no, we're NEVER going to let you fly!" that got people really pissed off.
A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. Leonard Nimoy.

Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job. And then I get paid.- Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity, which sums up my feelings regarding the lawsuit discussed here.

If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. - John F. Kennedy

Sam Vimes Theory of Economic Injustice
User avatar
Civil War Man
NERRRRRDS!!!
Posts: 3790
Joined: 2005-01-28 03:54am

Re: WoW: Warlords of Draenor

Post by Civil War Man »

Broomstick wrote:
Civil War Man wrote:1. The current subscriber count (5.6 million) is the same as it was back in December 2005, before the release of the Gates of Ahn'Qiraj patch in Vanilla.
5.6 million subscribers is still a fuckton of people. If WoW is dying it's still going to take awhile before the lights go out for the final time.
That's what I've been saying every time I mention that WoW's dying. The fact that the death is taking a really long time to happen doesn't mean it's not happening. The Roman Empire took centuries to collapse, and it was still a very large empire even during its decline. WoW can still run for a while on inertia alone, with the occasional jolt of activity when a new expansion launches, but that doesn't mean the decline is not happening.

Seriously, see for yourself. If you ignore the bumps around the expansion launches, subscriptions have been on an almost linear decline since Cataclysm.
Image

As Fenix said, a lot of the more recent moves by Blizzard with regards to WoW have been more focused on short-term monetization and stop-loss measures over long-term growth. Stuff like the subscription tokens, the cash shop mounts and pets, and their frequent emphasis on how they are trying to bring about shorter and more frequent expansions (seriously, one of the devs said recently that they already have people working on the expansion after Legion, and we aren't even at the Legion beta yet). It makes sense, because barring some kind of miracle, a product as old as WoW is not going to experience the same kind of long sustained growth it had during Vanilla to Wrath, so a strategy that's designed to capitalize on long term growth in subscriptions would offer a poor return on investment compared to one that focuses on slowing the loss of the customer base and incentivizing spending money on additional services.
User avatar
TheFeniX
Sith Marauder
Posts: 4869
Joined: 2003-06-26 04:24pm
Location: Texas

Re: WoW: Warlords of Draenor

Post by TheFeniX »

Darmalus wrote:I'd have to disagree on #4 there. Aside from a few buggy spots, WoD was shipped flying-complete, just minus the ability to fly on your mount. Using the Aviana's Feather item (launched you high into the air and gave a 2 minute glide) it really shows just how damn tiny the world is. They use the trick where you can't travel in a straight line most places to make it seem bigger a lot.
Fair enough. The meandering pathing and mob density was another complaint I had heard.
bilateralrope wrote:Or maybe Blizzard has decided to ignore the players who have left and focus on the players who remain. Which means more of the same, because Blizzard thinks that's what the remaining players like.
Even with "only" 5.6 million players, that's way to many to "focus" on. Blizzard did best when they were going with a shotgun spread of content. Dailies, questing areas, rep grinds, dungeons, raids and the subscriber count tended to reflect that. A vast majority of players, even up to the peak at WotLK did not raid. But they stayed anyway because the earlier expansions gave them numerous ways to progress their character to never feel like they had to go one direction to continue that progression.

Pretty much starting with Cata, you got to max, did dungeons, then heroics, then you either flailed away with the few daily hubs (pretty sure only launch hub was Tol Barad, and that was PvP), or you dove into raiding with a playerbase that really wasn't ready for that kind of difficulty spike. The general community in no way was prepared for Cata heroics, but that's what you were pushed into if you wanted any kind of progression what with the Tabbard rep grind and Valor system. Cata really did suck. I enjoyed it because I could raid and WPvP was actually fun for me back then. But I am not surprised, even later in the expansion they hemorrhaged subs. That said, I quit in Cata twice.

Pandas fixed a lot wrong with Cata, but many mistakes were made and I guess people weren't willing to come back after the launch.
Civil War Man wrote:It makes sense, because barring some kind of miracle, a product as old as WoW is not going to experience the same kind of long sustained growth it had during Vanilla to Wrath, so a strategy that's designed to capitalize on long term growth in subscriptions would offer a poor return on investment compared to one that focuses on slowing the loss of the customer base and incentivizing spending money on additional services.
I think the biggest problem is Blizzard just makes too much fucking money. Even if WoW closed shop today, they have enough hands in different projects that smaller games (development-wise) are outearning WoW. At 5.6 million subs, we've got about 84 mil a month, 252 mil per quarter. Vs 383 mil (in 2014) for Diablo and Hearthstone (a considerably cut-down Magic card-game). If there's enough people willing to dump hundreds of dollars on electronic data, there's no reason to pander to people demanding content for their $15 a month. Release an expansion for $60, hype the shit out of it, roll in the money, go into maintenance mode as quick as possible, lay off people and shift the rest into the next expansion.

WoW isn't the golden boy at Acti-Blizz anymore. It doesn't matter that it's still hugely popular and makes them shit-tons of money. They can fleece money in other areas and spend a lot less doing so. I'm not going to say WoW isn't important financially to Blizz, but it damn sure doesn't mean what it used to. Since they likely feel they won't ever be able to brag about 10+ mil subs again, they aren't even going to try to get back there. Even though Blizzard has to know what it would take to do so.

WoW's dead and as much as trolls like to blame this on casual players or those that complain about about lack of content (or flying, whatever): this is solely on Blizzard for sleeping on a pile of money and claiming "we'd do more, but we lack the resources." Fuck em.
User avatar
White Haven
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 6360
Joined: 2004-05-17 03:14pm
Location: The North Remembers, When It Can Be Bothered

Re: WoW: Warlords of Draenor

Post by White Haven »

To put those numbers in perspective, look at all the work that's been done on Star Citizen to date, and then realize that that's been done with a total development budget (not yet all spent) of what WoW makes in a month.

Resources my left nut.
Image
Image
Chronological Incontinence: Time warps around the poster. The thread topic winks out of existence and reappears in 1d10 posts.

Out of Context Theatre, this week starring Darth Nostril.
-'If you really want to fuck with these idiots tell them that there is a vaccine for chemtrails.'

Fiction!: The Final War (Bolo/Lovecraft) (Ch 7 9/15/11), Living (D&D, Complete)Image
User avatar
TheFeniX
Sith Marauder
Posts: 4869
Joined: 2003-06-26 04:24pm
Location: Texas

Re: WoW: Warlords of Draenor

Post by TheFeniX »

Bashiok left Blizzard about a month ago. Wasn't really news worthy, but I know a few posters made comments about him.

Lore made some Twitter tweets.
1.) why are raiders and pvpers left grounded when it comes to Draenor Pathfinder?

Counter-question: If you're only interested in raids, battlegrounds, or arenas, why do you care about flying in the open world? (CM_Lore)
If you want to fly, we want you to earn it - just like you earn gear, or titles, or basically everything else in the game. Earning flying - which is world content - through PvP would be just as weird as earning PvP gear through daily quests. (CM_Lore)

2.) so like when i earned my first 310% speed flying mount through PvP, that was weird?

That was also... what, 3 expansions ago? (CM_Lore)

3.) what's your point? flight has never been restricted to a single playstyle in the past, why now?

We want flight to be a reward, not something you spend some gold on once you hit max level. And we want earning that reward to involve doing content that's directly relevant to flight. (CM_Lore)

4.) are you saying that players should be bored and frustrated to "earn" something we've already enjoyed for 8+ years?

I'm saying if you don't want to put in the minimal effort that's required to earn flying, then you won't get it. That's fine. I haven't done the rep grinds either. If I don't get flying, that's my own fault. (CM_Lore)

5.) the main thing i'm getting from you guys is that you think flying is only relevant to world PvEers. and that just isn't true.

Not at all. We just want it to be something you earn, and world PvE is the best fit for it. (CM_Lore)

6.) I mean, could you imagine the uproar if for instance you couldn't ding 110 without winning 10 arena matches?

That's exactly my point though. Earning Draenor flight through PvP makes just as much sense as earning Conquest gear from raids. (CM_Lore)

7.) you guys put so much work into making Draenor beautiful, and fixing it to be be flyable. Why deny us the opportunity to see it?

We're not denying anyone anything. You're perfectly capable of doing a few daily quests. I get that you don't personally enjoy dailies. Working toward rewards is the core of what makes MMORPGs special, imo. (CM_Lore)

8.) but shouldn't gameplay be fun as well?

Sure, but different people enjoy different things. There's always going to be rewards you want behind content you don't like. I would love to have the monument with the Cinder Kitten on it in my Garrison, but I don't enjoy Pet Battles, so I don't get it. (CM_Lore)

9.) those should not be gated behind lengthy, boring grinds which alienate PvPers

I think if you honestly care this much about flying, it's perfectly reasonable for us to ask you to do some basic world content. (CM_Lore)

10.) "i think if you care this much about the legendary, it's perfectly reasonable for us to ask you to do a few BGs"

Eh, I think asking a raider to do a BG is a much bigger ask than asking a raider to do a few daily quests. (CM_Lore)

11.) what about asking a PvPer to do dailies? I think you're way underestimating how much I haaaaate them

My dislike for dailies has been very well documented over the years. I've just been poking at them once or twice a week. (CM_Lore)
Of note "Sure, but different people enjoy different things. There's always going to be rewards you want behind content you don't like. I would love to have the monument with the Cinder Kitten on it in my Garrison, but I don't enjoy Pet Battles, so I don't get it. (CM_Lore)" this comment gets me the most. Flying is not a little monument, or a new pet, or a transmog, or any other number of cosmetic benefits which are (at least in WoW) a traditional reward for grinds and other crazy stuff. Flying changes gameplay. Asking why a PvPer would want flying is stupid because it assumes PvPers only care about instanced PvP. It also assumes all PvE content is equal. I get burned out on WoW questing very quickly, but the ability to move around the world is important in a game like WoW due to them sticking with limited mobility as a design decision (yes, even with flying). Blizzard continues to tell players what they should enjoy while losing subs.

And to be honest, flying is just a gimmick right now. Blizzard used the playerbases last straw expertly: They now dangle that straw just out of reach. "We'll give it back, just make sure not to take your eye off it." A shiny coin taken from the playerbase and being offered back on a timetable when they should be working on other shit. It's the same thing as the new character models: this is not AAA development shit. I don't need constant updates about 2006 models being made in 2014. No company like Blizzard should be taking months to "get ready" for something so stupidly easy to do. That's because it was a ruse: content that isn't content. New player models wouldn't keep subs. People don't mind ugly and dated graphics (look at Minecraft). What they do mind is being patronized that Blizzard really needed that much time and effort to make this.

Blizzard is just tapping into a new type of grind that Korean MMOs can't even break into: the grind of "do busy work while we prepare to offer you content in the form of no content or content we already took away."

Also, people are getting cratered by Archimonde in LFR. They act like this is a new thing. When Garrosh was released in LFR during MoP, LFR groups could not handle it without loads of determination stacking. Same thing I heard with Lei Shen: fight was harder in LFR than Normal.
Gerald Tarrant
Jedi Knight
Posts: 752
Joined: 2006-10-06 01:21am
Location: socks with sandals

Re: WoW: Warlords of Draenor

Post by Gerald Tarrant »

TheFeniX wrote: Also, people are getting cratered by Archimonde in LFR. They act like this is a new thing. When Garrosh was released in LFR during MoP, LFR groups could not handle it without loads of determination stacking. Same thing I heard with Lei Shen: fight was harder in LFR than Normal.
Any sort of fight that involves soaking is a bad fit for LFR. Even target switching can be a bit much, if you've forgotten how obnoxious the early Elegon LFR's were, then I congratulate on blocking out the Trauma (or avoiding it if you came into the game late).
Of note "Sure, but different people enjoy different things. There's always going to be rewards you want behind content you don't like. I would love to have the monument with the Cinder Kitten on it in my Garrison, but I don't enjoy Pet Battles, so I don't get it. (CM_Lore)" this comment gets me the most. Flying is not a little monument, or a new pet, or a transmog, or any other number of cosmetic benefits which are (at least in WoW) a traditional reward for grinds and other crazy stuff. Flying changes gameplay. Asking why a PvPer would want flying is stupid because it assumes PvPers only care about instanced PvP. It also assumes all PvE content is equal. I get burned out on WoW questing very quickly, but the ability to move around the world is important in a game like WoW due to them sticking with limited mobility as a design decision (yes, even with flying). Blizzard continues to tell players what they should enjoy while losing subs.
On all of Lore's twitter comments, that's just mind-boggling to me. I swear Blizzard's trying to force you into consuming content in "their way" and then saying "See? Success. You're logging on."
The rain it falls on all alike
Upon the just and unjust fella'
But more upon the just one for
The Unjust hath the Just's Umbrella
Post Reply