That's The Last Straw! Now We Unleash Our Ultimate Weapon!

[Chris Parr]

Red Matter!

You remember Red Matter from the "Star Trek" reboot, right? That stuff that can destroy planets by creating a black hole? How will the Empire be able to counter this?

And don't, say it's not part of TNG era! If the original series era was rebooted, so was the Next Generation. That's how rebooted histories work, at least in Star Trek! (See "Yesterday's Enterprise" for an example of this)

So, one more time, Federation scientists whip up some Red Matter, put it into some torpedoes on their starships, then simply launch it at any Imperial ships foolish enough to close! Even a small black hole would be enough to seriously damage or destroy Imperial ships, and you can't say that Red Matter is rare, because the villain in the Star Trek reboot was able to produce plenty to destroy at least two planets!

[Lord Revan]

while it's not stated in any of the movies IIRC EU-sources state that the red matter in Spock's ship pretty much needed for of the AQ/BQ supply of some really rare minineral to to be made, while non-canon it makes sense.

So while more relevant then your previous attempts it's still a "silver bullet", the same thing said about the superpowers still applies, since it was not used against the Borg or the Dominion (or the Iconians in STO), in fact the only time red matter was used as weapon was during TOS(alt) era by romulan/borg hybrid ship that could take on fleets of TNG era ships and come out the victor so any ships Starfleet could use to counter it was comically outmatched. During TNG era it was only used against a "natural" disaster (the Hobus supernova).

again if Red Matter was something that was both easy acquire and weaponize then why wasn't it even considered as weapon against the Borg or the Dominion (or the Iconians if you want to count STO) and a treaty again is the more complex explanation.

oh and Nero didn't produce a single drop of Red Matter during his time in the abramsverse, but rather used the supply in Spock's ship.

and Abramsverse is an alternative universe of the primeverse not a full reboot, the TNG era of abramsverse doesn't exist yet so we can't say jackshit about it, for all we know the federation of abramsverse disbands before we reach 2360s in that verse.

[Chris Parr]

All right.

[Lord Revan]

When thinking of these things, ask yourself the question "could these things have been used to defeat the Dominion or the Borg?" as both those enemies are ones you can't negotiate with as the founders think of themselves as gods and Borg are only intrested in assimilating things to the collective and also they're enemies with high enough techbase to repesent a mortal threat to the Federation.

[Batman]

The moment he uses the stupid Red Matter the rest of Trek is out of the picture. He wants to use nuTrek, he gets to use nuTrek, and 'only' nuTrek.

[Chris Parr]

Well, I've already conceded the point that Red Matter may be more difficult to produce than I first thought.

[Batman]

Nothing personal Chris, but this wouldn't have been the first time rabid Trek fans tried to get the best of both worlds.

And I think you're seriously overestimating the damage potential of Red Matter. If the stuff is oh so powerful, why do you need to drop it into the core of a planet to do it's mojo? How come none of its Black Hole effects happen while it's in storage? Sounds like another technobabble weapon that only works in a very select set of circumstances.

[biostem]

When Nero attacked Earth, (and remember that he wanted to DESTROY it), he had to drill into it, then deposit the red matter in the core, (like he did with Vulcan). If red matter was such a great weapon, then why couldn't he just fling it at the planet? His ship was more than capable of taking out the entire Federation fleet, but he still couldn't achieve his goal.

[Chris Parr]

Yeah, that's true.

On the other hand, the Federation didn't really need Red Matter or Super Powerful Warriors or Gods or Energy Creatures to defeat the Borg or the Dominion, so who knows? Maybe they can pull off a win this time too.

Yeah, I know, the primitive Federation against the mighty Empire, a real mismatch if there ever was one, but hey, the Ewoks were primitives too, and look how badly they messed up the Imperial Legion stationed on Endor.

[Batman]

The Ewoks got their asses handed to them until Chewie stole that walker.

[Chris Parr]

Really? I seem to remember the Ewoks using deadfall traps and catapults and tree trunks and rocks dropped from hang gliders to smash and trip up quite a few of those Walkers.

[Batman]

They did. And how much headway did they make towards actually defeating the Imperials or getting into the bunker?

[Eternal_Freedom]

Um, I would point out that the Federation only won against the Dominion and the Borg through a highly unlikely set of circumstances. For the former, it required the Prophet's intervention, Starfleet sanctioning deceiving the Romulans into joining the war, using biological weapons against the Founders and an uprising on Cardassia itself. That includes Gods being on their side and fortuitous and/or underhanded involvement of other major powers. It's hardly "the Federation beating the Dominion" if we're being honest.

As for the Borg, well, it required Admiral Janeway saying "fuck the last twenty years of history, some of my friends died so I'm going to go back and change everything just to make my life better." Even with other incidents it required an armada of every available ship, which was either losing or obliterated before the Enterprise and/or Picard arrived to save the day with some unlikely advantage.

The Federation doesn't "pull off a win" it gets unbelievably fucking lucky. And that's against enemies who are at least close to their level. As Mike says on the main site, you might expect "the good guys" to win, but if you pit John McClane and his 9mm pistol against Megatron, my money is on the giant walking tank any day.

[The Romulan Republic]

The moment he uses the stupid Red Matter the rest of Trek is out of the picture. He wants to use nuTrek, he gets to use nuTrek, and 'only' nuTrek.

Well, isn't it supposed to be original timeline Spock who originally had the Red Matter? Suggesting that the original timeline has the ability to procure or manufacture it?

Edits: That said, I'd love to see more reboot vs. Star Wars debates, just because its an area that hasn't been heavily explored. And their's the whole thing about them both being Abrams projects.

[The Romulan Republic]

As to Red Matter's use against the Empire...

I'm not sure its worth jack against ships. It took that whole giant orb to take out Nero's already damaged ship, and the Enterprise, which was nearby, escaped with relatively little damage. That suggests that its useful for only three purposes that I can think of:

1. WMD strikes on enemy worlds.
2. Destruction of your own territory rather than letting the enemy take it.
3. Creating strategically placed black holes so that their presence will disrupt hyperdrive travel- basically mining spice.

The first one is a bit outside the Federation's usual methods, though not outside what Section 31 would resort to. But I don't know that it would be worth much against the Empire. Without FTL fast enough to reach most of the Empire, and sufficient numbers of weapons to destroy much of the Empire, a WMD attack by the Federation will do limited damage, sufficing only to ensure a massive retaliation.

The second one is kind of pointless. It'll deny the enemy a chance to profit from their victory, but it won't do much to help you win. The Empire doesn't actually need captured Federation resources and territory.

The third one is intriguing, but is also going to end up making your own space difficult to traverse.

So I'm not sure Red Matter matters much in the end.

[Chris Parr]

Well, getting lucky still counts as a win in my book.

[The Romulan Republic]

Also, another problem with Red Matter is that you don't want ships popping back in time and altering the time line willie-nillie.

[biostem]

Yeah, that's true.

On the other hand, the Federation didn't really need Red Matter or Super Powerful Warriors or Gods or Energy Creatures to defeat the Borg or the Dominion, so who knows? Maybe they can pull off a win this time too.

Yeah, I know, the primitive Federation against the mighty Empire, a real mismatch if there ever was one, but hey, the Ewoks were primitives too, and look how badly they messed up the Imperial Legion stationed on Endor.

In order to defeat the Borg at Wolf 359, the Federation had to make use of an assimilated Picard. In order to defeat the Borg in Voyager, it required a Janeway that brought future tech back. Even then, it appeared that the method she used to travel back wasn't readily available, as she had to steal some piece of tech to make the trip - this, again, falls into the category of "not readily available", thus it can't be relied upon.

As already pointed out by others, it was not the Federation alone the defeated the Dominion, so that can't be counted as *just* a Federation victory, either.

With regards to Endor - the Imperials were being held back by Palpatine, who wanted to make an example of them, plus Vader's meddling to have his son brought to him. Imagine what would have happened if the Imperial fleet didn't just hold position during the battle, and if the ground forces engaged in full force, aiming to kill the rebels, with aerial support and the full brunt of the space fleet behind them. You also can't disregard the convenient coincidence of C3-P0 resembling the Ewok's god, without which, the rebels may not have garnered their support.

[Chris Parr]

All right.

[Batman]

The Federation didn't defeat the Borg at Wolf 359. They got obliterated.

[Chris Parr]

Yeah, it was only by using Picard's link to the Borg that allowed the Enterprise crew to cause the Borg ship to self destruct and save the day. At least that's how I remember it.

[Batman]

That wasn't at Wolf 359. By the time that happened the Cube had made it all the way to Earth.

[The Romulan Republic]

Um, I would point out that the Federation only won against the Dominion and the Borg through a highly unlikely set of circumstances. For the former, it required the Prophet's intervention, Starfleet sanctioning deceiving the Romulans into joining the war, using biological weapons against the Founders and an uprising on Cardassia itself. That includes Gods being on their side and fortuitous and/or underhanded involvement of other major powers. It's hardly "the Federation beating the Dominion" if we're being honest.

As for the Borg, well, it required Admiral Janeway saying "fuck the last twenty years of history, some of my friends died so I'm going to go back and change everything just to make my life better." Even with other incidents it required an armada of every available ship, which was either losing or obliterated before the Enterprise and/or Picard arrived to save the day with some unlikely advantage.

The Federation doesn't "pull off a win" it gets unbelievably fucking lucky. And that's against enemies who are at least close to their level. As Mike says on the main site, you might expect "the good guys" to win, but if you pit John McClane and his 9mm pistol against Megatron, my money is on the giant walking tank any day.

To be fair, the Empire did lose to a group that started out much weaker than it- The Rebel Alliance. Its not the same because the same technological differences weren't their, but the infrastructure/resources/numbers gap might well have been comparable.

Of course, the Rebellion couldn't reliably take or hold worlds against the Empire, at least not initially. They hid and used hit and run attacks. The Federation is not an insurgency, its a government. A guerrilla movement of Federation survivors might be able to resist the Empire, but that doesn't mean the Federation as it is could defend its territory.

[Chris Parr]

That wasn't at Wolf 359. By the time that happened the Cube had made it all the way to Earth.

Well, almost.

Then Locutus/Picard says "sleep," which Data takes as a clue how to defeat he Borg. So Data sends the order through his neural link through Locutus/Picard to the Borg ship causing said ship to shut down and overload, apparently, because the next thing we know it's blown up!

[Chris Parr]

You know, just as an aside, it's amazing to me that after wars with the Klingons, Romulans, Orions, Cardasians, the Borg and the Dominion that the Federation still believes it can maintain the peace by their peacenik ways. I mean, as soon as the enemy is neutralized, sometimes by some "deus ex machina", they go right back to their old "peace and love" ideal as if they don't know how naïve that is!

Well, maybe in the alternate Trek things are different. Maybe there they know the only way to maintain peace is with a strong Starfleet that is actually willing to fight. I can only hope so, anyway.