ISIS Enshrines a Theology of Rape

[cmdrjones]

NYT


Nothing like religion to justify evil sickening things

Nitpick: come come now, I think we can be a BIT more specific...
Generally agreed though.

[cmdrjones]

It is really sad that we are at the point where defending Saddam Hussein has become a reasonable position. Really, I am so fucking upset with how Obama has handled ISIS, and how the Bush administration before that handled the Iraq occupation in general, I don't have anything further to say that wouldn't quickly devolve into incoherent ranting.

What do you think Obama should do?

I'll take a crack at this.... Hoo-boy what a mess! We could go over all the different factions killing each other over there and all the interlocking alliances, but how much digital ink do we want to spill and how much time have we got?

Obama can't DO much because he's spent much of his political capital on other things, BUT he IS a "lame duck" so as long as he doesn't screw the pooch for the upcoming democratic nominee... he has a certain freedom of action.

So, here are some problems:

#1 Eliminate Assad or not? To eliminate him leaves Syria open for superdoubleplus Ungood ethnic cleansing by IS, but leaving him in place ain't much of an option either...

#2 The PKK and Kurdish forces in Iraqi Kurdistan are holding IS back, but to support them TOO much angers Turkey who is a NATO member and frenemy who has supported IS in the past and sat back while Kobani burned down and did nothing, but to their credit they have been playing host to hundreds of thousands of Syrian refugees.

#3 The Shiite dominated Iraqi government can't accept aid openly from Iran without pissing US off, and vice versa, so accepts limited aid from us both... but none of it is enough to invade/liberate IS territory...

I could go on and on about the Saudis, the houthis, etc etc but you get the idea the area is all effed up...

At THIS point, as much as it pains me to say it, I think Obama is doing a DECENT job of keeping the whole shitstorm contained. What I think he SHOULD do (or more accurately what I would do in his place) is simply cut a deal with Turkey, Jordan, Assad and Iraq to cooperate against IS and then once they are destroyed (using mostly local forces w US SOCOM running the show) do a phased withdrawal much like the Israelis did in the Sinai and allow the people in all of those areas to determine whether they want to be post war Syria, Kurdistan, Perisa, or whatever (it may be best to split Iraq into Sunni, Shia and Kurd portions). It's doubtful the factions will go for it NOW, but after a joint war against the most obvious shitbags since the SS, perhaps they would be willing to set up a reasonable compromise (i.e. for one example, Kurdistan is recognized in Iraq and possibly Syria, but most if not all of Turkish Kurdistan is declared forever Turkish and Kurds there are heavily subsidized to move to Iraqi Kurdistan and call it a day, same for Iranian Kurdistan....) we have a precedent for this kind of thing that was messy, but resulted in a more stable Asia Minor region: the population exchanges after the Greco-Turkish war... that was badly handled, so perhaps we could do better this time...

[The Romulan Republic]

Frankly I think that would take more statesmanship and more political capital than the Obama Administration has.

It looks like this mess is going to get dumped on the next President (God help us if they're a warmongering Islamophobic Republican).

Edit: Would probably take more time than the Obama Administration has, too.

[Purple]

What happens if Donald wins?

[Crossroads Inc.]

What you mean the GOP nomination ?
I doubt that in the extreme. Largely because (IMHO) Trump has zero interest in being president. This is a giant reality show to home with himself as the star. If he thought for one moment he might actually be elected, he would drop out in a heart beat.

[Simon_Jester]

If Crossroads is wrong (and I'm not saying he is, though I'd like to know why he thinks what he thinks)...

Frankly, if Trump IS running seriously and DOES somehow secure the Republican nomination he is almost guaranteed to lose the general election. He's a misogynistic creep. He's a business mogul with several bankruptcies on his record. His most famous single line is "you're fired," in an unemployment-riddled economy. He's on record as a birther at a time that gave Obama the perfect chance to say "I'm sorry, Mr. Trump, but I was too busy killing Osama bin Laden to go get my birth certificate out for you." And he's reversed his stated political position on almost every issue within the past ten years.

In spite of all this, he's still the plurality favorite of the Republican party. I'm pretty sure that's because there are like seventeen candidates (splitting the field something fierce). Also because he is totally, totally willing to say whatever horrible things the Tea Party wants to hear. Thus he has managed to attract much of that sector of the party... but while they play a major role in nomination campaigns among Republicans, there aren't nearly enough Teaists to win a general election.

[Elheru Aran]

When you have a small enough plurality because of support being so widely divided... it doesn't take much to be the favorite. That's something to remember.

The general Republican strategy towards the Middle East tends to be boots on the ground, massive explosions, ????, profit (or at least their corporate pimps profit and give them a cut), and pull out. A realistic, more nuanced approach would probably entail drones, local co-ordination, and carefully picking your allies.

[cmdrjones]

When you have a small enough plurality because of support being so widely divided... it doesn't take much to be the favorite. That's something to remember.

The general Republican strategy towards the Middle East tends to be boots on the ground, massive explosions, ????, profit (or at least their corporate pimps profit and give them a cut), and pull out. A realistic, more nuanced approach would probably entail drones, local co-ordination, and carefully picking your allies.

Basically.... yeah.

I'll only add the famous quote by Churchill regarding Hitlers invasion of the USSR: "If Hitler were to invade hell, I would put in a good word for Satan in the house of commons."

If the Totenkopf division were to rise from their graves and shamble forth to do battle with ISIS, I'd probably scrounge up some donations for ammunition.

[Metahive]

Basically.... yeah.

I'll only add the famous quote by Churchill regarding Hitlers invasion of the USSR: "If Hitler were to invade hell, I would put in a good word for Satan in the house of commons."

If the Totenkopf division were to rise from their graves and shamble forth to do battle with ISIS, I'd probably scrounge up some donations for ammunition.

At least the Nazis were proper Christians. Not like those ISIS heathens who worship strange gods and don't eat Jesus' flesh and drink his blood every Sunday. Pagan scum.

The enemy of my enemy is my enemy's enemy, not my friend. How much bullshit could have been averted if people had remembered that in the last 30 or so years?

[Joun_Lord]

If the Totenkopf division were to rise from their graves and shamble forth to do battle with ISIS, I'd probably scrounge up some donations for ammunition.

Elheru Aran said carefully pick allies, not throw in support with whatever asshole shows up to fight ISIS. We are arguably in this mess because of that attitude. People were willing to support ISIS and other fucked up groups in Syria because they were the enemy of Assad. People were willing to support ISIS in Iraq because they weren't Americans or the Iraqistan government. This quagmire in the Middle East is the result of the West supporting whomever was willing to fight the Soviets.

As Metahive said, the enemy of our enemy is NOT our friend. Fucking Al Quesadilla is against ISIS, does that mean we should start arming them and giving them support?

No!

You don't fight an evil by being evil or supporting another evil. ISIS is undeniably evil, the evil things they do like rape, murder, slavery, and genocide is why people are so pissed at them. Well that or just because they blew up some old rocks. We cannot fight them by being just as bad as them, glassing the desert or killing everything with a turban, or supporting other evil like zombie Nazis or AQ.

Whats the point of fighting then? We defeat ISIS only to be just as bad as them or we create another ISIS to arise 5 or 10 years from now that we have to fight again.

[Broomstick]

The enemy of your enemy isn't your friend, but could be an ally if you have the proper mutual interest.

The US and UK allied with the USSR during WWII, but that doesn't mean we were friends with Stalin (however much the Americans might have wanted that). Once the war was over (arguably, even before it was formally over) we were back to being enemies again. The three powers involved all wanted the Nazis gone more than they wanted to fight each other, so allies until the Nazis were gone.

The problem is in actually believing the "friends" part.

[Channel72]

The problem is less to do with supporting enemies of enemies, and just ignoring the actual geopolitical goals of the people you support. This is another reason I'm so upset with Obama. He was warned, over and over, about ISIS, dating back to 2011. Everyone knew the power vacuum and civil war in Syria was spawning some seriously fucked up Islamic extremist groups, ISIS being the most successful, of course.

But it's not like the US supported ISIS anyway - they've mostly been supporting the Free Syrian Army, which is at least nominally secular. The problem is that the FSA just can't recruit the way the Islamists can. Saddam maintained control by providing the average person in Iraq with a good lifestyle and opportunities, and then ruthlessly crushing anyone who opposed him. He would have ended ISIS in a day with chemical weapons or whatever.

The US can't do that - but really, if anything called for US military intervention, this does. You can cynically dismiss that sentiment with the old "if we kill ISIS then some other group will just replace them, etc.". Well, yeah - but it's still our fucking responsibility to make sure that doesn't happen, since we created this goddamn mess. Saddam had this shit worked out - and then we just went in and removed him and his whole army without much of a plan, to say nothing of our incoherent policy towards Syria. If we go in and forcibly remove ISIS - and then immediately leave - then yes, it's likely ISIS will either rematerialize, or a similar group like Al Nusra will just come along and become ISIS 2. Which is why this requires a long term commitment. Until Iraq's economy and infrastructure gets back to 1980s/90s levels, where there is a similar level of opportunity and a strong, stable military, it will remain vulnerable to wave after wave of Islamic militias coming from the power vacuum in Syria. It would have been better had we never gotten involved with this in the first place - but even worse than getting involved is to just get involved and then do a half-assed job, which is precisely what happened.

So what should Obama do now? Bite the bullet, commit the ground troops, retake Mosul in a joint US/Sunni-Iraqi/Kurdish military effort, restart from where we were in 2011, give the Kurds autonomy*, and this time don't alienate the entire Sunni population of Iraq. Then setup a permanent military base in Kurdistan (probably using the planned Erbil airbase as a start) to ensure this doesn't happen again. Oh wait... is that last part too imperialistic for everyone? Too bad - the US is responsible for cleaning this shit up and needs to seriously commit. Really, the blood of hundreds of thousands of victims and all these ruined lives are on our heads now, and Obama thought it would be better to score political points by "withdrawing" from Iraq rather than actually dealing with the situation we created there.

* they deserve it after all the grunt-work they've done in pushing back ISIS.

[cmdrjones]

Basically.... yeah.

I'll only add the famous quote by Churchill regarding Hitlers invasion of the USSR: "If Hitler were to invade hell, I would put in a good word for Satan in the house of commons."

If the Totenkopf division were to rise from their graves and shamble forth to do battle with ISIS, I'd probably scrounge up some donations for ammunition.

At least the Nazis were proper Christians. Not like those ISIS heathens who worship strange gods and don't eat Jesus' flesh and drink his blood every Sunday. Pagan scum.

The enemy of my enemy is my enemy's enemy, not my friend. How much bullshit could have been averted if people had remembered that in the last 30 or so years?

You need to play the apollo dude!

[cmdrjones]

If the Totenkopf division were to rise from their graves and shamble forth to do battle with ISIS, I'd probably scrounge up some donations for ammunition.

Elheru Aran said carefully pick allies, not throw in support with whatever asshole shows up to fight ISIS. We are arguably in this mess because of that attitude. People were willing to support ISIS and other fucked up groups in Syria because they were the enemy of Assad. People were willing to support ISIS in Iraq because they weren't Americans or the Iraqistan government. This quagmire in the Middle East is the result of the West supporting whomever was willing to fight the Soviets.

As Metahive said, the enemy of our enemy is NOT our friend. Fucking Al Quesadilla is against ISIS, does that mean we should start arming them and giving them support?

No!

You don't fight an evil by being evil or supporting another evil. ISIS is undeniably evil, the evil things they do like rape, murder, slavery, and genocide is why people are so pissed at them. Well that or just because they blew up some old rocks. We cannot fight them by being just as bad as them, glassing the desert or killing everything with a turban, or supporting other evil like zombie Nazis or AQ.

Whats the point of fighting then? We defeat ISIS only to be just as bad as them or we create another ISIS to arise 5 or 10 years from now that we have to fight again.

I was being a BIT hyperbolic, but you DO see the overall point, yes? I suppose we could run with your idea a bit further, then... let's use a past example (again from WWII) should we NOT have allied with the USSR then? Chiang kai Shek? The vile imperialists in Britain and France... And WORST of all those Belgians? (Leopold II anyone?)


In any case, as I said: it would have to be fought with local forces with our SOCOM support, followed by a reasonable Peace conference and redrawing of borders LIKE WWII (but without some of the glaring errors) so to ensure it DOESN'T happen again.

TL:DR Nice straw hitler

[cmdrjones]

The enemy of your enemy isn't your friend, but could be an ally if you have the proper mutual interest.

The US and UK allied with the USSR during WWII, but that doesn't mean we were friends with Stalin (however much the Americans might have wanted that). Once the war was over (arguably, even before it was formally over) we were back to being enemies again. The three powers involved all wanted the Nazis gone more than they wanted to fight each other, so allies until the Nazis were gone.

The problem is in actually believing the "friends" part.

We agree again.... this is getting out of hand.

[Knife]

How about America just leaves the shit hole alone and if anyone else thinks they can fix it, feel free. Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't a healthy chunk of ISIS Sunni Baathist we dumped from power in Saddam's regime? Fuck Iraq, it's not really a country except what western countries want it to be, it's two or three groups of people who hate each other squished into a land mass by force.

[Solauren]

No real surprise (on the primary topic). Rape has been a part of war since the first being picked up a rock to crack the skull of someone in order to take their mate for themselves.

As for the tangent of how to deal with ISIS.

The only thing I can think of is (without access to alot of military intelligence and other details none of us have access too)

Pull out all non-native civilians, as well as all women and children that want to go, and let them fight it out.
Loss of lives will be high, and we will probably lose historical sites, but as long as we keep interfering, shit like this will reoccur whenever 'the West' pulls out.

[AniThyng]

I don't think pulling out all women and children who want to go will work out quite as nicely as one would hope given how many of the more prominent recent terrorists of western origin are home grown...

[Crossroads Inc.]

If Crossroads is wrong (and I'm not saying he is, though I'd like to know why he thinks what he thinks)...

Well not to derail the thread (if mods wish this to be moved..)
But... (Warning huge amounts of Anecdotes incoming!!!)
Basically I have been a "fan" of Trump for years, I had a friend of mine who actually worked at one of his properties in NY who described how the place was run and how Trump ran things in general. Basically Trump has from his view and mine, run his company for the benefit of only one man, Donald Trump. The man is a Monstrous egotist and basically runs his business for his own benefit and ego, His Properties bare his name, His company bares his name, His TV shows star him, his realty shows star him. EVERYTHING then man does is For him.

I forgot who said it, but someone mentioned that Trump being in the presidential race is basically him staring in a massive reality TV show that will have him in the nation spots lot for over a year. For a man who lives of his Ego, who could ask for anything more?

I did misspoke in that I meant to say if he has the possibility of becoming PRESIDENT vs becoming just the nomination, he would withdraw in a heartbeat.
I have no doubt he will stay in the race for as long as possible. If he looses the nomination, I am about 80% certain he will run as a third party candidate, (no doubt making up his own party, maybe 'The Trump Party')

@Jester
Your summary of him is also masterful in terms of how the REST of the country would view him. He is racist, callus, ignorant, sexist and the list goes on. Not to mention he has a horrible track record of actually running a business. If he does, SOMEHOW become the GOP Nominee (something I am secretly hopeful of) It will be a catastrophic loss for the Republicans.

[The Romulan Republic]

No real surprise (on the primary topic). Rape has been a part of war since the first being picked up a rock to crack the skull of someone in order to take their mate for themselves.

As for the tangent of how to deal with ISIS.

The only thing I can think of is (without access to alot of military intelligence and other details none of us have access too)

Pull out all non-native civilians, as well as all women and children that want to go,

So the men who don't want to live in ISIS land can go fuck themselves?

and let them fight it out.
Loss of lives will be high, and we will probably lose historical sites, but as long as we keep interfering, shit like this will reoccur whenever 'the West' pulls out.

That is an assumption, not a fact, and assumptions about the future have a way of often being wrong.

Certainly, recent interventions have not gone terribly well. The question, however, is weather that is because intervention is inherently doomed or those interventions were badly handled. George W. Bush is hardly the paragon of US leadership. Neither, for that matter, is Obama, though I'd say that he's at least a cut or two above Bush.

Also, ISIS is not purely a local matter that the West can simply walk away from. ISIS has stated its intentions to conquer western countries. It has recruited in western countries. It has succeeded partly because of certain western countries' bungling and corruption. Its supporters have conducted attacks in western countries. It is our fight, like it or not.

Regardless, I feel that their is a basic moral obligation to oppose genocide that transcends regional or cultural boundaries. World War II should have taught us that. ISIS isn't Hitler, but they are killing large numbers of people based on what group they are a part of.

[Thanas]

How about America just leaves the shit hole alone and if anyone else thinks they can fix it, feel free. Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't a healthy chunk of ISIS Sunni Baathist we dumped from power in Saddam's regime? Fuck Iraq, it's not really a country except what western countries want it to be, it's two or three groups of people who hate each other squished into a land mass by force.

Ah yes, the "we fucked it up, now let others fix it" attitude we so love from the world's leading power.

The US does not get a pass for it. They were warned well in advance of the dangers of Iraq breaking up, they half-assed everything and then decided to fuck off before the job was done.

[Knife]

How about America just leaves the shit hole alone and if anyone else thinks they can fix it, feel free. Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't a healthy chunk of ISIS Sunni Baathist we dumped from power in Saddam's regime? Fuck Iraq, it's not really a country except what western countries want it to be, it's two or three groups of people who hate each other squished into a land mass by force.

Ah yes, the "we fucked it up, now let others fix it" attitude we so love from the world's leading power.

The US does not get a pass for it. They were warned well in advance of the dangers of Iraq breaking up, they half-assed everything and then decided to fuck off before the job was done.

LOL, Iraq was fucked up way before America. And, what if I don't want to be a world power. Step up man, show us how to do it.

Or to put it another way, you want us back there 'fixing it' even if we 'broke it repeatedly'. Isn't there a joke about how it is insanity to keep doing the same things over and over again and expect a different result. Sounds more like you just like your punching bag. Man up, cowboy the fuck up, get hot, and get Germany into the game. Take some of that sweet Greek money and go bang out a kick ass army and go right the wrongs man...

Good luck.

[Thanas]

Not in this way and if you got a trillion dollars to send to me, then by all means do it, I'll give it a crack.

[Knife]

Not in this way and if you got a trillion dollars to send to me, then by all means do it, I'll give it a crack.

My bad, edited mine before I saw this.

We don't have a trillion either.

[Channel72]

How about America just leaves the shit hole alone and if anyone else thinks they can fix it, feel free.

It wasn't a shithole you idiot. It was a nice place before the sanctions and invasion. It was turned into a shithole mostly by US environmental devastation (e.g. depleted uranium) and sanctions, followed by complete destruction of infrastructure in 2003. In the 80s and 90s, it had a great economy and standard of living.

Anyway, here's a picture of a high school in Southern California for no reason:



Just kidding, that's a typical University in Baghdad in the 80s. So, really ... fuck you.