Breakdown of Incentive for Doctors Re: Universal Healthcare?

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Breakdown of Incentive for Doctors Re: Universal Healthcare?

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http://www.cato.org/publications/commen ... profession

How Government Killed the Medical Profession

By Jeffrey A. Singer
This article appeared in the May 2013 Issue of Reason.
I am a general surgeon with more than three decades in private clinical practice. And I am fed up. Since the late 1970s, I have witnessed remarkable technological revolutions in medicine, from CT scans to robot-assisted surgery. But I have also watched as medicine slowly evolved into the domain of technicians, bookkeepers, and clerks.

Government interventions over the past four decades have yielded a cascade of perverse incentives, bureaucratic diktats, and economic pressures that together are forcing doctors to sacrifice their independent professional medical judgment, and their integrity. The consequence is clear: Many doctors from my generation are exiting the field. Others are seeing their private practices threatened with bankruptcy, or are giving up their autonomy for the life of a shift-working hospital employee. Governments and hospital administrators hold all the power, while doctors—and worse still, patients—hold none.

The Coding Revolution

At first, the decay was subtle. In the 1980s, Medicare imposed price controls upon physicians who treated anyone over 65. Any provider wishing to get compensated was required to use International Statistical Classification of Diseases (ICD) and Current Procedural Terminology (CPT) codes to describe the service when submitting a bill. The designers of these systems believed that standardized classifications would lead to more accurate adjudication of Medicare claims.

What it actually did was force doctors to wedge their patients and their services into predetermined, ill-fitting categories. This approach resembled the command-and-control models used in the Soviet bloc and the People’s Republic of China, models that were already failing spectacularly by the end of the 1980s.


I am a general surgeon with more than three decades in private clinical practice. And I am fed up.”
Before long, these codes were attached to a fee schedule based upon the amount of time a medical professional had to devote to each patient, a concept perilously close to another Marxist relic: the labor theory of value. Named the Resource-Based Relative Value System (RBRVS), each procedure code was assigned a specific value, by a panel of experts, based supposedly upon the amount of time and labor it required. It didn’t matter if an operation was being performed by a renowned surgical expert—perhaps the inventor of the procedure—or by a doctor just out of residency doing the operation for the first time. They both got paid the same.

Hospitals’ reimbursements for their Medicare-patient treatments were based on another coding system: the Diagnosis Related Group (DRG). Each diagnostic code is assigned a specific monetary value, and the hospital is paid based on one or a combination of diagnostic codes used to describe the reason for a patient’s hospitalization. If, say, the diagnosis is pneumonia, then the hospital is given a flat amount for that diagnosis, regardless of the amount of equipment, staffing, and days used to treat a particular patient.

As a result, the hospital is incentivized to attach as many adjunct diagnostic codes as possible to try to increase the Medicare payday. It is common for hospital coders to contact the attending physicians and try to coax them into adding a few more diagnoses into the hospital record.

Medicare has used these two price-setting systems (RBRVS for doctors, DRG for hospitals) to maintain its price control system for more than 20 years. Doctors and their advocacy associations cooperated, trading their professional latitude for the lure of maintaining monopoly control of the ICD and CPT codes that determine their payday. The goal of setting their own prices has proved elusive, though—every year the industry’s biggest trade group, the American Medical Association, squabbles with various medical specialty associations and the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services (CMS) over fees.

As goes Medicare, so goes the private insurance industry. Insurers, starting in the late 1980s, began the practice of using the Medicare fee schedule to serve as the basis for negotiation of compensation with the doctors and hospitals on their preferred provider lists. An insurance company might offer a hospital 130 percent of Medicare’s reimbursement for a specific procedure code, for instance.

The coding system was supposed to improve the accuracy of adjudicating claims submitted by doctors and hospitals to Medicare, and later to non-Medicare insurance companies. Instead, it gave doctors and hospitals an incentive to find ways of describing procedures and services with the cluster of codes that would yield the biggest payment. Sometimes this required the assistance of consulting firms. A cottage industry of fee-maximizing advisors and seminars bloomed.

I recall more than one occasion when I discovered at such a seminar that I was “undercoding” for procedures I routinely perform; a small tweak meant a bigger check for me. That fact encouraged me to keep one eye on the codes at all times, leaving less attention for my patients. Today, most doctors in private practice employ coding specialists, a relatively new occupation, to oversee their billing departments.

Another goal of the coding system was to provide Medicare, regulatory agencies, research organizations, and insurance companies with a standardized method of collecting epidemiological data—the information medical professionals use to track ailments across different regions and populations. However, the developers of the coding system did not anticipate the unintended consequence of linking the laudable goal of epidemiologic data mining with a system of financial reward.

This coding system leads inevitably to distortions in epidemiological data. Because doctors are required to come up with a diagnostic code on each bill submitted in order to get paid, they pick the code that comes closest to describing the patient’s problem while yielding maximum remuneration. The same process plays out when it comes to submitting procedure codes on bills. As a result, the accuracy of the data collected since the advent of compensation coding is suspect.

Command and Control

Coding was one of the earliest manifestations of the cancer consuming the medical profession, but the disease is much more broad-based and systemic. The root of the problem is that patients are not payers. Through myriad tax and regulatory policies adopted on the federal and state level, the system rarely sees a direct interaction between a consumer and a provider of a health care good or service. Instead, a third party—either a private insurance company or a government payer, such as Medicare or Medicaid—covers almost all the costs. According to the National Center for Policy Analysis, on average, the consumer pays only 12 percent of the total health care bill directly out of pocket. There is no incentive, through a market system with transparent prices, for either the provider or the consumer to be cost-effective.

As the third party payment system led health care costs to escalate, the people footing the bill have attempted to rein in costs with yet more command-and-control solutions. In the 1990s, private insurance carriers did this through a form of health plan called a health maintenance organization, or HMO. Strict oversight, rationing, and practice protocols were imposed on both physicians and patients. Both groups protested loudly. Eventually, most of these top-down regulations were set aside, and many HMOs were watered down into little more than expensive prepaid health plans.

Then, as the 1990s gave way to the 21st century, demographic reality caught up with Medicare and Medicaid, the two principal drivers of federal health care spending.

Twenty years after the fall of the Iron Curtain, protocols and regimentation were imposed on America’s physicians through a centralized bureaucracy. Using so-called “evidence-based medicine,” algorithms and protocols were based on statistically generalized, rather than individualized, outcomes in large population groups.

While all physicians appreciate the development of general approaches to the work-up and treatment of various illnesses and disorders, we also realize that everyone is an individual—that every protocol or algorithm is based on the average, typical case. We want to be able to use our knowledge, years of experience, and sometimes even our intuition to deal with each patient as a unique person while bearing in mind what the data and research reveal.

Being pressured into following a pre-determined set of protocols inhibits clinical judgment, especially when it comes to atypical problems. Some medical educators are concerned that excessive reliance on these protocols could make students less likely to recognize and deal with complicated clinical presentations that don’t follow standard patterns. It is easy to standardize treatment protocols. But it is difficult to standardize patients.

What began as guidelines eventually grew into requirements. In order for hospitals to maintain their Medicare certification, the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services began to require their medical staff to follow these protocols or face financial retribution.

Once again, the medical profession cooperated. The American College of Surgeons helped develop Surgical Care Improvement Project (SCIP) protocols, directing surgeons as to what antibiotics they may use and the day-to-day post-operative decisions they must make. If a surgeon deviates from the guidelines, he is usually required to document in the medical record an acceptable justification for that decision.

These requirements have consequences. On more than one occasion I have seen patients develop dramatic postoperative bruising and bleeding because of protocol-mandated therapies aimed at preventing the development of blood clots in the legs after surgery. Had these therapies been left up to the clinical judgment of the surgeon, many of these patients might not have had the complication.

Operating room and endoscopy suites now must follow protocols developed by the global World Health Organization—an even more remote agency. There are protocols for cardiac catheterization, stenting, and respirator management, just to name a few.

Patients should worry about doctors trying to make symptoms fit into a standardized clinical model and ignoring the vital nuances of their complaints. Even more, they should be alarmed that the protocols being used don’t provide any measurable health benefits. Most were designed and implemented before any objective evidence existed as to their effectiveness.

A large Veterans Administration study released in March 2011 showed that SCIP protocols led to no improvement in surgical-site infection rate. If past is prologue, we should not expect the SCIP protocols to be repealed, just “improved”—or expanded, adding to the already existing glut.

These rules are being bred into the system. Young doctors and medical students are being trained to follow protocol. To them, command and control is normal. But to older physicians who have lived through the decline of medical culture, this only contributes to our angst.

One of my colleagues, a noted pulmonologist with over 30 years’ experience, fears that teaching young physicians to follow guidelines and practice protocols discourages creative medical thinking and may lead to a decrease in diagnostic and therapeutic excellence. He laments that “ ‘evidence-based’ means you are not interested in listening to anyone.” Another colleague, a North Phoenix orthopedist of many years, decries the “cookie-cutter” approach mandated by protocols.

A noted gastroenterologist who has practiced more than 35 years has a more cynical take on things. He believes that the increased regimentation and regularization of medicine is a prelude to the replacement of physicians by nurse practitioners and physician-assistants, and that these people will be even more likely to follow the directives proclaimed by regulatory bureaus. It is true that, in many cases, routine medical problems can be handled more cheaply and efficiently by paraprofessionals. But these practitioners are also limited by depth of knowledge, understanding, and experience. Patients should be able to decide for themselves if they want to be seen by a doctor. It is increasingly rare that patients are given a choice about such things.

The partners in my practice all believe that protocols and guidelines will accomplish nothing more than giving us more work to do and more rules to comply with. But they implore me to keep my mouth shut—rather than risk angering hospital administrators, insurance company executives, and the other powerful entities that control our fates.

Electronic Records and Financial Burdens

When Congress passed the stimulus, a.k.a. the American Reinvestment and Recovery Act of 2009, it included a requirement that all physicians and hospitals convert to electronic medical records (EMR) by 2014 or face Medicare reimbursement penalties. There has never been a peer-reviewed study clearly demonstrating that requiring all doctors and hospitals to switch to electronic records will decrease error and increase efficiency, but that didn’t stop Washington policymakers from repeating that claim over and over again in advance of the stimulus.

Some institutions, such as Kaiser Permanente Health Systems, the Mayo Clinic, and the Veterans Administration Hospitals, have seen big benefits after going digital voluntarily. But if the same benefits could reasonably be expected to play out universally, government coercion would not be needed.

Instead, Congress made that business decision on behalf of thousands of doctors and hospitals, who must now spend huge sums on the purchase of EMR systems and take staff off other important jobs to task them with entering thousands of old-style paper medical records into the new database. For a period of weeks or months after the new system is in place, doctors must see fewer patients as they adapt to the demands of the technology.

The persistence of price controls has coincided with a steady ratcheting down of fees for doctors. As a result, private insurance payments, which are typically pegged to Medicare payment schedules, have been ratcheting down as well. Meanwhile, Medicare’s regulatory burdens on physician practices continue to increase, adding on compliance costs. Medicare continues to demand that specific coded services be redefined and subdivided into ever-increasing levels of complexity. Harsh penalties are imposed on providers who accidentally use the wrong level code to bill for a service. Sometimes—as in the case of John Natale of Arlington, Illinois, who began a 10-month sentence in November because he miscoded bills on five patients upon whom he repaired complicated abdominal aortic aneurysms—the penalty can even include prison.

For many physicians in private practice, the EMR requirement is the final straw. Doctors are increasingly selling their practices to hospitals, thus becoming hospital employees. This allows them to offload the high costs of regulatory compliance and converting to EMR.

As doctors become shift workers, they work less intensely and watch the clock much more than they did when they were in private practice. Additionally, the doctor-patient relationship is adversely affected as doctors come to increasingly view their customers as the hospitals’ patients rather than their own.

In 2011, The New England Journal of Medicine reported that fully 50 percent of the nation’s doctors had become employees—either of hospitals, corporations, insurance companies, or the government. Just six years earlier, in 2005, more than two-thirds of doctors were in private practice. As economic pressures on the sustainability of private clinical practice continue to mount, we can expect this trend to continue.

Accountable Care Organizations

For the next 19 years, an average of 10,000 Americans will turn 65 every day, increasing the fiscal strain on Medicare. Bureaucrats are trying to deal with this partly by reinstating an old concept under a new name: Accountable Care Organization, or ACO, which harkens back to the infamous HMO system of the early 1990s.

In a nutshell, hospitals, clinics, and health care providers have been given incentives to organize into teams that will get assigned groups of 5,000 or more Medicare patients. They will be expected to follow practice guidelines and protocols approved by Medicare. If they achieve certain benchmarks established by Medicare with respect to cost, length of hospital stay, re-admissions, and other measures, they will get to share a portion of Medicare’s savings. If the reverse happens, there will be economic penalties.

Naturally, private insurance companies are following suit with non-Medicare versions of the ACO, intended primarily for new markets created by ObamaCare. In this model, an ACO is given a lump sum, or bundled payment, by the insurance company. That chunk of money is intended to cover the cost of all the care for a large group of insurance beneficiaries. The private ACOs are expected to follow the same Medicare-approved practice protocols, but all of the financial risks are assumed by the ACOs. If the ACOs keep costs down, the team of providers and hospitals reap the financial reward: surplus from the lump sum payment. If they lose money, the providers and hospitals eat the loss.

In both the Medicare and non-Medicare varieties of the ACO, cost control and compliance with centrally planned practice guidelines are the primary goal.

ACOs are meant to replace a fee-for-service payment model that critics argue encourages providers to perform more services and procedures on patients than they otherwise would do. This assumes that all providers are unethical, motivated only by the desire for money. But the salaried and prepaid models of provider-reimbursement are also subject to unethical behavior in our current system. There is no reward for increased productivity with the salary model. With the prepaid model there is actually an incentive to maximize profit by withholding services.

Each of these models has its pros and cons. In a true market-based system, where competition rewards positive results, the consumer would be free to choose among the various competing compensation arrangements.

With increasing numbers of health care providers becoming salaried employees of hospitals, that’s not likely. Instead, we’ll see greater bureaucratization. Hospitals might be able to get ACOs to work better than their ancestor HMOs, because hospital administrators will have more control over their medical staff. If doctors don’t follow the protocols and guidelines, and desired outcomes are not reached, hospitals can replace the “problem” doctors.

Doctors Going Galt?

Once free to be creative and innovative in their own practices, doctors are becoming more like assembly-line workers, constrained by rules and regulations aimed to systemize their craft. It’s no surprise that retirement is starting to look more attractive. The advent of the Affordable Care Act of 2010, which put the medical profession’s already bad trajectory on steroids, has for many doctors become the straw that broke the camel’s back.

A June 2012 survey of 36,000 doctors in active clinical practice by the Doctors and Patients Medical Association found 90 percent of doctors believe the medical system is “on the wrong track” and 83 percent are thinking about quitting. Another 85 percent said “the medical profession is in a tailspin.” 65 percent say that “government involvement is most to blame for current problems.” In addition, 2 out of 3 physicians surveyed in private clinical practice stated they were “just squeaking by or in the red financially.”

A separate survey of 2,218 physicians, conducted online by the national health care recruiter Jackson Healthcare, found that 34 percent of physicians plan to leave the field over the next decade. What’s more, 16 percent said they would retire or move to part-time in 2012. “Of those physicians who said they plan to retire or leave medicine this year,” the study noted, “56% cited economic factors and 51% cited health reform as among the major factors. Of those physicians who said they are strongly considering leaving medicine in 2012, 55% or 97 physicians, were under age 55.”

Interestingly, these surveys were completed two years after a pre-ObamaCare survey reported in The New England Journal of Medicine found 46.3 percent of primary care physicians stated passage of the new health law would “either force them out of medicine or make them want to leave medicine.”

It has certainly affected my plans. Starting in 2012, I cut back on my general surgery practice. As co-founder of my private group surgical practice in 1986, I reached an arrangement with my partners freeing me from taking night calls, weekend calls, or emergency daytime calls. I now work 40 hours per week, down from 60 or 70. While I had originally planned to practice at least another 12 to 14 years, I am now heading for an exit—and a career change—in the next four years. I didn’t sign up for the kind of medical profession that awaits me a few years from now.

Many of my generational peers in medicine have made similar arrangements, taken early retirement, or quit practice and gone to work for hospitals or as consultants to insurance companies. Some of my colleagues who practice primary care are starting cash-only “concierge” medical practices, in which they accept no Medicare, Medicaid, or any private insurance.

As old-school independent-thinking doctors leave, they are replaced by protocol-followers. Medicine in just one generation is transforming from a craft to just another rote occupation.

Medicine in the Future

In the not-too-distant future, a small but healthy market will arise for cash-only, personalized, private care. For those who can afford it, there will always be competitive, market-driven clinics, hospitals, surgicenters, and other arrangements—including “medical tourism,” whereby health care packages are offered at competitive rates in overseas medical centers. Similar healthy markets already exist in areas such as Lasik eye surgery and cosmetic procedures. The medical profession will survive and even thrive in these small private niches.

In other words, we’re about to experience the two-tiered system that already exists in most parts of the world that provide “universal coverage.” Those who have the financial means will still be able to get prompt, courteous, personalized, state-of-the-art health care from providers who consider themselves professionals. But the majority can expect long lines, mediocre and impersonal care from shift-working providers, subtle but definite rationing, and slowly deteriorating outcomes.

We already see this in Canada, where cash-only clinics are beginning to spring up, and the United Kingdom, where a small but healthy private system exists side-by-side with the National Health Service, providing high-end, fee-for-service, private health care, with little or no waiting.

Ayn Rand’s philosophical novel Atlas Shrugged describes a dystopian near-future America. One of its characters is Dr. Thomas Hendricks, a prominent and innovative neurosurgeon who one day just disappears. He could no longer be a part of a medical system that denied him autonomy and dignity. Dr. Hendricks’ warning deserves repeating:

“Let them discover the kind of doctors that their system will now produce. Let them discover, in their operating rooms and hospital wards, that it is not safe to place their lives in the hands of a man whose life they have throttled. It is not safe, if he is the sort of man who resents it—and still less safe, if he is the sort who doesn’t.”


Jeffrey Singer practices general surgery in Phoenix, Arizona, writes for Arizona Medicine, the journal of the Arizona Medical Association, is an adjunct scholar at the Cato Institute, and is treasurer of the U.S. Health Freedom Coalition.
Saw this on my newsfeed. Would socialized medicine inevitably lead to the results described. Are we in a damned if we do, damned if we don't situation? I mean we know the consequences of not having guaranteed health coverage. If the consequences of a universal health system is the scenario described, then what is the solution?

I would say, let the market dictate the rates and prices, and the government simply cover the bills of the people on universal coverage. Allow private insurance to compete (though I don't see what the point of private insurance would be other than to cover services the government doesn't cover, if health care prices are set by market rates.)
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Re: Breakdown of Incentive for Doctors Re: Universal Healthc

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Would socialized medicine inevitably lead to the results described.
With so many countries that have had socialized medicine for decades that is the wrong question. The correct question is: Has socialized medicine led to the results described ?

My experience has been long waiting times at the New Zealand public hospitals. For a condition which doesn't have any urgency for treatment. But once I get to the front of the waiting list, treatment is effective and heavily subsidised. I'm paying $10 every 6 months for pills that keep things under control, with free blood tests watching for side effects.
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Re: Breakdown of Incentive for Doctors Re: Universal Healthc

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bilateralrope wrote:
Would socialized medicine inevitably lead to the results described.
With so many countries that have had socialized medicine for decades that is the wrong question. The correct question is: Has socialized medicine led to the results described ?

My experience has been long waiting times at the New Zealand public hospitals. For a condition which doesn't have any urgency for treatment. But once I get to the front of the waiting list, treatment is effective and heavily subsidised. I'm paying $10 every 6 months for pills that keep things under control, with free blood tests watching for side effects.
According to the article, it's already happening in countries with socialized medicine. With the quality doctors moving into cash only models where the wealthy can afford to go, and the socialized system being left with lower quality doctors as a result.

Market rates could solve part of the problem. But it opens up another issue that if the government is covering everything, medical professionals have an incentive to charge more and more, knowing that the government would cover everything. Naturally the government will have an incentive to impose price controls to stop that. And we end up back in the same situation.
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Re: Breakdown of Incentive for Doctors Re: Universal Healthc

Post by Fingolfin_Noldor »

I dunno about you, but the big difference between the American Health system and the "rest of the world" is the insane cost of drugs itself. I don't see that mentioned any where in that article at all.

And no. There is another way to force medical professionals not to "charge more and more" by enforcing a system of regulations that force doctors to account for every damn thing they do or not be paid for at all. These controls must be enforced at the hospital level. But then since your system allows for "for profit" hospitals, then obviously that is not going to happen. Not least this is a question of ethics.
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Re: Breakdown of Incentive for Doctors Re: Universal Healthc

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I'd like to see the data behind the articles claims of
mediocre and impersonal care from shift-working providers, subtle but definite rationing, and slowly deteriorating outcomes.
Because referring to Atlas Shrugged in a serious discussion means I really want to see evidence before I believe what they are saying.

As for a private system for those able to pay existing alongside a public system, I see no problem with that if the public system is good. If someone is willing to pay to skip the queue for something that isn't urgent, and isn't harming others by doing so, let them.
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Re: Breakdown of Incentive for Doctors Re: Universal Healthc

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To extend on bilateralrope, the other question is "if this has already occurred has this actually been a bad thing?"

My experience in Australia has been that private hospitals and health insurance has meant zero wait and a private room for elective surgery, but you pay (one way or another).

Conversely I've been carried into emergency in a public hospital, had surgery, been proscribed medicine and follow up with a physiotherapist and I only had to pay a fraction of the cost of the publicly subsidised medicine.

Our local state public health system has a huge waiting list for "necessary" elective surgery but that's mainly due to the state having no money and badly managing the health system.

I wouldn't say Australia has the worlds best systems but we're far from the worst. To answer the op question I'd say its a question that shows the writer doesn't want to compare and contrast any systems other than the current USA vs 70s era USSR.

What proof is there that the public system no longer cares? The general consensus I've always been faced is that if you have something emergency you go to a public hospital regardless as that's where the experience in emergency is. The article is long in claims and short in evidence.
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Re: Breakdown of Incentive for Doctors Re: Universal Healthc

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His disdain for evidence-based medicine sort of tweaks my alarm - it's not the be-all and end-all of medicine but anyone who puts "so-called" in front of "evidence-based" makes me wonder WTF?

He raises some valid points but really comes across as having an agenda and ulterior motives.
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Re: Breakdown of Incentive for Doctors Re: Universal Healthc

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The_Saint wrote:What proof is there that the public system no longer cares?
I'd really like to such proof, if it exists, because a public system is a government run system. Which means I'm thinking that if it gets bad enough then opposition parties will make it an election issue.
Broomstick wrote:His disdain for evidence-based medicine sort of tweaks my alarm - it's not the be-all and end-all of medicine but anyone who puts "so-called" in front of "evidence-based" makes me wonder WTF?<br class="noTransition"><br class="noTransition">He raises some valid points but really comes across as having an agenda and ulterior motives.
I missed that part.

Come to think of it, who are the Cato Institute ?
The name seems familiar. Lets check wikipedia
The Cato Institute is an American libertarian think tank headquartered in Washington, D.C. It was founded as the Charles Koch Foundation in 1974 by Ed Crane, Murray Rothbard, and Charles Koch,[6] chairman of the board and chief executive officer of the conglomerate Koch Industries.[nb 1] In July 1976, the name was changed to the Cato Institute.[6][7] Cato was established to have a focus on public advocacy, media exposure and societal influence.[8] According to the 2014 Global Go To Think Tank Index Report (Think Tanks and Civil Societies Program, University of Pennsylvania), Cato is number 16 in the "Top Think Tanks Worldwide" and number 8 in the "Top Think Tanks in the United States".[9] Cato also topped the 2014 list of the budget-adjusted ranking of international development think tanks. [10]
Not a source I'd consider reliable.
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Re: Breakdown of Incentive for Doctors Re: Universal Healthc

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I gave up when I saw Cato Institute.

Edit: Dammit bilateralrope.
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Re: Breakdown of Incentive for Doctors Re: Universal Healthc

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Lord MJ wrote:Saw this on my newsfeed. Would socialized medicine inevitably lead to the results described. Are we in a damned if we do, damned if we don't situation? I mean we know the consequences of not having guaranteed health coverage. If the consequences of a universal health system is the scenario described, then what is the solution?

I would say, let the market dictate the rates and prices, and the government simply cover the bills of the people on universal coverage. Allow private insurance to compete (though I don't see what the point of private insurance would be other than to cover services the government doesn't cover, if health care prices are set by market rates.)
The government will still want to take measures to ensure that they are not being defrauded or cheated by exorbitant expenses (e.g. charging a hundred dollars for a roll of gauze, or a few thousand dollars to put a few stitches in). Because everyone does that.

The only difference is that private insurers usually do it by dickering with the hospital, and have (in principle) the threat of not paying a given health care provider any longer- putting them "off network." If the government threatens to do that in a single-payer system, that's equivalent to putting the provider out of business. Which means that, in effect, the providers are forced to follow some kind of price control imposed by the government. And need to actually justify their expenses based on facts, logic, and information, if they are to have any hope of being better compensated for what they do.

Frankly, given that the entire developed world seems to manage just fine on single-payer systems, I'm not sure this is a serious problem. Our health care expenses per capita are ridiculously high compared to theirs, and the outcomes are comparable. So if price controls lead to uninspired, mediocre health care, you'd think they'd have noticed.

I also find it hilarious that the author of this article is comparing US medicine to the Soviet bloc when presumably he has no actual experience of living in the USSR. Although that is commonplace among people who resent the government trying to stop them from cheating people.
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Re: Breakdown of Incentive for Doctors Re: Universal Healthc

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I am in my first year of medical residency, so I have some limited perspective on this.
Today, most doctors in private practice employ coding specialists, a relatively new occupation, to oversee their billing departments.
This is not an exaggeration, the rough number I've heard is for every three physicians there is one person who does full-time bureaucratic work, namely medical coding and insurance claims. It's ironic that a system that was supposed to lower medical costs is actually raising them by necessitating this otherwise useless job position.
As old-school independent-thinking doctors leave, they are replaced by protocol-followers. Medicine in just one generation is transforming from a craft to just another rote occupation.
Those young doctors these days... (Wax nostalgic much?) I've seen some truly random and questionable treatments prescribed by old-school doctors who think that evidence based medicine doesn't apply to them. In at least some cases I think there's often an element of denial that something the physician has done for a couple of decades has been shown to be sub-optimal/harmful/unnecessary by a recent study. My personal view is that, overall, the development of evidence-based guidelines has been a boon to the practice of medicine.
What began as guidelines eventually grew into requirements. In order for hospitals to maintain their Medicare certification, the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services began to require their medical staff to follow these protocols or face financial retribution.
This observation is, unfortunately, true. As I wrote above, I do think the evidence based guidelines are overall a good thing, but they do need to be applied judiciously to the individual patient. I have seen many cases where there is a clear and objective reason to deviate from the guideline (e.g. patient is allergic to the recommended drug, patient is suicidal and the recommended drug is toxic in high doses, patient has a comorbidity not considered in the guideline, etc.) and yet there is strong push-back from the hospital to conform to the guideline. I have spent a lot of time arguing with insurance companies about this, even for simple and low-cost items like infant formula thickener. There have certainly been instances in which insurance refuses to cover the medically indicated therapy because it is "off protocol" and the hospital has eaten the cost.
For many physicians in private practice, the EMR requirement is the final straw. Doctors are increasingly selling their practices to hospitals, thus becoming hospital employees. This allows them to offload the high costs of regulatory compliance and converting to EMR.
This is very consistent with my own observations. I know a large number of private practitioners who have or will retire early or sell to a hospital because of the EMR requirement. The requirement for EMR is not unreasonable (I suspect the act of eliminating doctors' bad handwriting alone will save lives :wink: ) and there is a lot of potential for improving healthcare, e.g. by making records available for research, making records instantly available to other hospital systems, making records electronically accessible to the patient, and having a computer look for medication errors. The problem is that EMR, as mandated by government, is not required to do any of these wonderful things particularly well. For example, two hospitals I worked at in 2014 that both had EMR (in fact, the same EMR) still printed out records and faxed them to each other. On the other hand, EMR is proprietary and incredibly expensive, and government has done nothing to try to change this (e.g. funding an open-source EMR, mandating a standardized inter-EMR communication language, etc.). Think expensive in the range of $100,000/year/doctor for a private practice. There is considerable cost-savings in joining up with a big institution that gets EMR at a huge discount (as little as 10% of what private practice pays), which intentionally or unintentionally is resulting in fewer private practitioners.
ACOs are meant to replace a fee-for-service payment model that critics argue encourages providers to perform more services and procedures on patients than they otherwise would do. This assumes that all providers are unethical, motivated only by the desire for money. But the salaried and prepaid models of provider-reimbursement are also subject to unethical behavior in our current system. There is no reward for increased productivity with the salary model. With the prepaid model there is actually an incentive to maximize profit by withholding services.
This statement ignores "defensive medicine" where doctors order unnecessary tests and procedures to rule-out conditions they don't think the patient has but are worried about being sued over. I do think the salaried model prevalent in hospitals is a little bit more ethically sound based on studies that doctors who are reimbursed directly for procedures order more procedures. On the other hand, hospital doctors seem to be less aware of what tests/procedures cost and consequently tend to be less economically efficient than their private counterparts.
Once free to be creative and innovative in their own practices, doctors are becoming more like assembly-line workers, constrained by rules and regulations aimed to systemize their craft... He believes that the increased regimentation and regularization of medicine is a prelude to the replacement of physicians by nurse practitioners and physician-assistants...
I have worked with some damn good nurse practitioners (NPs), and there are certainly some scenarios where an NP could serve the patient just as well as a physician but at a lower cost. That being said, an NP is not a physician, and not simply because an NP lacks two extra letters after his name. There is a fundamentally different mindset, a difference in personality that is hard to describe. To think that an NP can replace a physician wherever evidence based guidelines exist is surely a mistake.
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Re: Breakdown of Incentive for Doctors Re: Universal Healthc

Post by Knife »

Lord MJ wrote: According to the article, it's already happening in countries with socialized medicine. With the quality doctors moving into cash only models where the wealthy can afford to go, and the socialized system being left with lower quality doctors as a result.
I don't want to alarm you, but this is what you have in the US. MD's who have the experience and training, go a specialty route and open offices to make a shit load of money. Hospitalists and General Practice MD's are more and more younger MD's getting experience. Not that they are not 'quality' but anyone with skills and experience is moving to specialties for the real money.
Market rates could solve part of the problem. But it opens up another issue that if the government is covering everything, medical professionals have an incentive to charge more and more, knowing that the government would cover everything. Naturally the government will have an incentive to impose price controls to stop that. And we end up back in the same situation.
A lot of it is greed, a lot of it is MD's worried about insurance costs for their practices. More regulation on the system, would also probably mean less tort and mal practice, and less cost to be an MD due to decreased risk legally.
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Re: Breakdown of Incentive for Doctors Re: Universal Healthc

Post by Simon_Jester »

Looking over kc8tbe's post...

I get the sense that a lot of what's going wrong here is the result of the government trying to impose some kind of order on the health care industry so that it can even participate in covering anyone's health care costs in the first place... In a political environment that is profoundly hostile to actually giving the government direct control over anything.

So you get lots of indirect regulation and imposition of clumsy systems, and the government doesn't fix them because it:
1) Lacks enough authority and responsibility for the outcome to have a motive to do so, and
2) Every time they even talk about changing things, half the population has an automatic "EWWW GET YOUR HANDS OFF MY HEALTH CARE" reaction which undermines attempts to make rational decisions.
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Re: Breakdown of Incentive for Doctors Re: Universal Healthc

Post by Fingolfin_Noldor »

Simon_Jester wrote:Looking over kc8tbe's post...

I get the sense that a lot of what's going wrong here is the result of the government trying to impose some kind of order on the health care industry so that it can even participate in covering anyone's health care costs in the first place... In a political environment that is profoundly hostile to actually giving the government direct control over anything.

So you get lots of indirect regulation and imposition of clumsy systems, and the government doesn't fix them because it:
1) Lacks enough authority and responsibility for the outcome to have a motive to do so, and
2) Every time they even talk about changing things, half the population has an automatic "EWWW GET YOUR HANDS OFF MY HEALTH CARE" reaction which undermines attempts to make rational decisions.
It sounds very much like a uniquely American problem.
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Re: Breakdown of Incentive for Doctors Re: Universal Healthc

Post by Jub »

Does the study look at the best health care systems in the world like France, for instance?
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Re: Breakdown of Incentive for Doctors Re: Universal Healthc

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It's interesting that it mentions coding since these last two months everyone in the hospital I work at had to go through training on what is going to be different with ICD-10 compared to ICD-9, the big coding systems that describes different diagnosis, procedures etc... so they can be billed for. It was a complete waste of time for most of the people in my department since we don't have anything to do with coding. We may have a nominal part in determining treatment, and we certainly bill for things, but that last part is mostly done automatically through the computer system.

So the revamp on coding that he complains will happen is on the verge of a rollout. From what I see it might be an improvement, but it is definitely more complicated because it adds more details and options to choose from. It also might have some impact on what is the standard protocol etc... for a particular diagnosis or procedure because of what a specific code will allow payment for. Some of what I saw looked like a refinement and better description of particular diagnosis/procedures. But, as I've said, I have very little to do with coding in any way so I was just trying to complete the mandatory training as quickly as possible to get it off of my slate of required things to do last month.
kc8tbe wrote: I know a large number of private practitioners who have or will retire early or sell to a hospital because of the EMR requirement. The requirement for EMR is not unreasonable (I suspect the act of eliminating doctors' bad handwriting alone will save lives :wink: ) and there is a lot of potential for improving healthcare, e.g. by making records available for research, making records instantly available to other hospital systems, making records electronically accessible to the patient, and having a computer look for medication errors. The problem is that EMR, as mandated by government, is not required to do any of these wonderful things particularly well. For example, two hospitals I worked at in 2014 that both had EMR (in fact, the same EMR) still printed out records and faxed them to each other. On the other hand, EMR is proprietary and incredibly expensive, and government has done nothing to try to change this (e.g. funding an open-source EMR, mandating a standardized inter-EMR communication language, etc.). Think expensive in the range of $100,000/year/doctor for a private practice. There is considerable cost-savings in joining up with a big institution that gets EMR at a huge discount (as little as 10% of what private practice pays), which intentionally or unintentionally is resulting in fewer private practitioners.


The hospital I work at has had EMR for a long time now. At least on the pharmacy side we helped develop the pharmacy side of one of the two most widely used EMR programs in the USA (supposedly for a discount on our system :roll: ). For the first couple of years we had the system I entered orders into the system from orders that were scanned to us from various units. Interpreting the handwriting and terminology of certain physicians was a real challenge at times. We also had to deal with various go rounds of not accepting certain abbreviations because they could be mistaking for something else etc... Anyway, I think we've seen a big improvement in our workflow since we went to physician order entry. The program we have allows for the building of preferences lists which helps a lot. Where it can be a pain is when the physician wants to order something he's not used to ordering. There's database look up but it's pretty much designed around products, and the specific products that the hospital is supposedly currently carrying. Like anything, it's still an ever changing work work in progress. We have a few physicians offices in town who use or are linked to the same system and that is really handy if your physician is one of those groups.

Anyway, I also meant to say that when we were rolling out the physician order entry we did have a lot of physicians retire or stop practicing at our hospital. I think all of the hospitals in town have some form of EMR but not all of them require physician order entry. Of course not all of the hospitals use the same system. Epic, Cerner and whatever the VA uses are the ones I know of.
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Re: Breakdown of Incentive for Doctors Re: Universal Healthc

Post by Covenant »

When I was in Italy for my recent honeymoon (I got married) during my trip in Florence I subdued a robber and got a bad gash on my thumb from something sharp, and after the police hauled him off I had to go get some assistance at a hospital that included cloth stitches, some cleaning up, and a brief check through. I walked in, showed them I was hurt, and they immediately fixed me up before figuring out my insurance or making me wait. I got great treatment at the cost of 28 Euro, and that only because I am an American citizen, my in-laws wouldn't have paid anything.

For comparison I once got a bad nosebleed in Virginia that did not stop GUSHING for hours, and I sat woozily in an American hospital room, coughing up blood draining down my throat, for well over hours before I was attended to, and then badly (and easily) by a doctor which I did not know was merely one of several non-hospital contract physicians. I got a bill from the hospital AND the doctor that nearly amounted to 500 dollars. Because the Virginia expansion of mediwhatever was denied I did not at the time have health insurance so that's out of pocket.

So yeah I'll stick with the socialized medicine.
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Re: Breakdown of Incentive for Doctors Re: Universal Healthc

Post by Fingolfin_Noldor »

Covenant wrote:When I was in Italy for my recent honeymoon (I got married) during my trip in Florence I subdued a robber and got a bad gash on my thumb from something sharp, and after the police hauled him off I had to go get some assistance at a hospital that included cloth stitches, some cleaning up, and a brief check through. I walked in, showed them I was hurt, and they immediately fixed me up before figuring out my insurance or making me wait. I got great treatment at the cost of 28 Euro, and that only because I am an American citizen, my in-laws wouldn't have paid anything.

For comparison I once got a bad nosebleed in Virginia that did not stop GUSHING for hours, and I sat woozily in an American hospital room, coughing up blood draining down my throat, for well over hours before I was attended to, and then badly (and easily) by a doctor which I did not know was merely one of several non-hospital contract physicians. I got a bill from the hospital AND the doctor that nearly amounted to 500 dollars. Because the Virginia expansion of mediwhatever was denied I did not at the time have health insurance so that's out of pocket.

So yeah I'll stick with the socialized medicine.
Sounds not terribly far from my own experience. I had a serious muscle spasm that sent me to the ER at 6 am in the morning and I had to wait for over 2 hours just to get treated. And I only did when I walked out (or limped out), and asked when I was going to get anything at all. Finally I got the jabs and what not. The insurance company tried to play punk with me and refused to pay for part of my bill thanks to the hospital not bothering to describe the situation in full detail beyond a "sprain". To add fun to the joy, I had to tolerate over a week of blurry vision thanks to overly strong medication, saw an eye doctor to verify what the problem was. All in all, to the tune of something like 600-800$.

God if I ever run into serious medical trouble, I'm flying home for treatment. It's not complete socialised treatment, but it's still government subsidised and sure as hell wouldn't cost as much as here. I can see why people can actually go bankrupt on this system.
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Re: Breakdown of Incentive for Doctors Re: Universal Healthc

Post by Napoleon the Clown »

Making the facts fit the conclusion? Check. Using the most extreme example of the position he's against? Check. Referencing Ayn Rand? Check. A complete lack of citations for any studies he mentions? Check. Disdain for evidence-based medicine? Check.

Yeah, this is about the quality of writing I've seen out of most Cato opinion pieces. I find it to be less reliable than Koch-based studies on climate change.
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Re: Breakdown of Incentive for Doctors Re: Universal Healthc

Post by Covenant »

Yeah, if you get sick in America you have joined the most predatory retail market in America. How much will you pay for your own health? Socialized systems do not inevitably ruin healthcare, and if you get stuck in a long line it is only because lots of people need help and lots of people are getting helped, which is a good thing and to be applauded. Given how expensive (like, life ruiningly expensive) medical care is here, I am very happy to hear about a potential turnover in medical professionals. Ideally the ones at the top who like to set abusive hospital pricing policies.

My wife still needs to pay off about 1000 dollars in medical bills from a while back because Virginia set the bills slowly, individually, and confusingly labeled. They also charge obscene amounts of money for lab work so, yeah, 1000 bucks. Not for one year, for one hospital visit for a concussion or something because nobody salts the streets in Staunton, Virginia. That's not an easy expense to just swallow and keep going, and it's not like she had to get surgery or physical therapy, it was just a trip. Plus, she had healthcare at the time, and this bill isn't to healthcare... this is to us personally.

So yeah, it's demented, and doctors who refuse to operate on socialized systems are not to be trusted anyway. Let them cater with a cash business if they want. My in-laws were joking about just such a thing over in Italy, as we bantered on the way back. There the pay-for-care hospitals don't have all the best resuscitation equipment so if you're rich and you go to the no line hospital and code then you might be getting shipped over to the public hospital anyway. Not sure if it was true.
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Re: Breakdown of Incentive for Doctors Re: Universal Healthc

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This man is an idiot - or, more probably, a corporate stooge. The numbers don't lie; countries with effective public health establishments have longer life expectancies at a higher quality of life than the US does with our bizarre bastardized semiprivate approach. I don't know where the debate is coming from; it's decades since we had the best healthcare* on the planet, if ever.

*As measured by life expectancies and quality of life, the two points to the whole healthcare apparatus. Dollars/patient is a useless measurement, outcomes are what matter.
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Re: Breakdown of Incentive for Doctors Re: Universal Healthc

Post by Napoleon the Clown »

Something else I thought of after posting: The guy quotes (but does not cite) studies from 2012 and earlier. The study claiming 83% of doctors were opposed to the ACA is of an extreme ideological bent.


Sorry, Lord MJ. That's an absolutely awful opinion piece you decided to quote. There were lots of other claims about the ACA's potential harm that didn't come true. Don't go to Cato for accurate and unbiased information. They damn near admit that they start with a conclusion and make the facts support what they decided at the start.
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Re: Breakdown of Incentive for Doctors Re: Universal Healthc

Post by bilateralrope »

The article has a good reason for only looking at studies from 2012 or earlier.
This article appeared in the May 2013 Issue of Reason
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Re: Breakdown of Incentive for Doctors Re: Universal Healthc

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Esquire wrote:This man is an idiot - or, more probably, a corporate stooge. The numbers don't lie; countries with effective public health establishments have longer life expectancies at a higher quality of life than the US does with our bizarre bastardized semiprivate approach. I don't know where the debate is coming from; it's decades since we had the best healthcare* on the planet, if ever.

*As measured by life expectancies and quality of life, the two points to the whole healthcare apparatus. Dollars/patient is a useless measurement, outcomes are what matter.
Well, if quality of outcomes is lower, but dollars/patient are also lower in a given country, at least you can argue that the country is getting what it's paying for and that a tradeoff is involved.

When a service like health care is more expensive and producing inferior results, then you know something's seriously wrong.
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Re: Breakdown of Incentive for Doctors Re: Universal Healthc

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CATO idiots.
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