Could the Galactic Republic have been spared?

[Simon_Jester]

Why does a Sith lord have to behind it? Why can't it just be the bloated bureaucratic mess drowning in its own red tape while the supposed good guys looked on as we are told? Why are writers and fans of this universe intent on denying agency to everyone other than handful of space wizards?

Well, the thing is, the Republic survived many many crises of a variety of types before, for many thousands of years. There's no obvious evidence that there was anything wrong with the Republic it hadn't overcome before. Except, of course, that this time there was a guy at the top of the Republic's power structure who was playing both sides of a civil war off each other to ensure that he came on top.

Frankly, Palpatine didn't have to be a Sith for that to work. The only reason he needed Sith powers to subvert the Republic was:
1) It made it easier to take control of the Separatists, and
2) It allowed him to cancel out the Jedi's powers that might otherwise have stopped him.

[Patroklos]

A polity having survived every previous crisis...is every polity with any history whatsoever.

[Simon_Jester]

Yes- but in this case, the Galactic Republic has a history twenty-five thousand years deep, many of its major institutions have existed for five millenia or more, and we know that it has weathered numerous civil wars, Sith attacks, random planetary uprisings, and so on.

It is theoretically possible that the Trade Federation and other Separatist factions might, somehow, all by themselves present more of a threat to the stability of the Republic than any previous opponent.

It is theoretically possible that this is a uniquely corrupt and weak period in Republic history and that the Republic government had always been well organized and effective in the past.

However, in my honest opinion, neither of those possibilities is very realistic. Especially when we know quite well that there is one factor in play that was never in play before- the presence of a powerful figure, actively running BOTH the Republic AND its enemies, who was actively playing both sides off against each other.

It's like, if you have a species of animal that has survived repeated droughts, floods, famines, and plagues, and suddenly they all drop dead in an ice age, it's fair to assume that the ice age is what killed them- and that without the ice age, they'd probably have survived.

Likewise, here the Republic has faced every individual element of its problems:

-Perception that its enforcement arm is overreliant on the Jedi? Check.
-Potential civil war against a hodge-podge of Outer Rim economic blocs? Check.
-Sith screwing around on the frontiers? Oh, God, check.
-Bumbling, irresolute Senate? Check.
-Powerful corporations that can practically take over whole planets? Check.

It's all there. The only new factor is that the Republic's leader is specifically conspiring to overthrow the Republic by deliberately guiding its enemies to attack the Republic's weaknesses.

[Patroklos]

I think you are forgetting that Palpantines machinations were not focused primarily on crating a credible separatist threat, but rather creating a resurgent and more powerful Republic to turn into his Empire.

In other words the Republic was already dying and Palpantine may have saved it via the only possible way it could have been (vice a fragmentation). Just because many may not like the result or how he did it does not mean there is a fairytale alternative of the mythisized Republic of old returning in its former glory. Again the assumption that the true and systemic problems of the Republic were the work of Palpantine vice being prexisting and exploited by Palpatine don't really mesh with what we are told. Sure it's the simple answer, I prefer more depth to my SW.

In any case shall we go through the list of invaders Rome survived unti it didn't? The number of rebellions the Russian Monarchy withstood until they didn't? You keep saying the Republic survived all these crises. Well surviving something doesn't mean unscathed. What doesn't kill does not in fact always make you stronger For all we know the weakness of the Republic we observe that would allow Palpantine to pull off what he did may be the culmination of the effects all those millennia of wounds.

What seems more likely; a single person (even a space wizard) subverting well functioning near utopian (if you take the way so many characters talk about it anyway) system of awesomeness or said person exploiting a corrupt and failing institution?

[The Romulan Republic]

I think you are forgetting that Palpantines machinations were not focused primarily on crating a credible separatist threat, but rather creating a resurgent and more powerful Republic to turn into his Empire.

In other words the Republic was already dying and Palpantine may have saved it via the only possible way it could have been. Just because many may not like the result or how he did it does not mean there is a fairytale alternative.

That doesn't make sense. Palpatine made the Republic's military stronger while undermining its government and waging war against it through the separatists (before using the military to destroy it), but it does not follow that the Republic was "dying" beforehand, much less that Palpatine's approach could be the only one that could have worked.

And it viscerally disgusts me that anyone would try to turn Palpatine into a hero under the guise of "necessary evil". Complete, of course, with the typical rhetoric that accompanies such reasoning- any course that does not involve brutality and despotism being labeled "a fairytale". Because apparently there's no middle ground between 40k and My Little Pony.

Palpatine didn't fucking save the Republic. He destroyed it. It ceased to be the Republic and became the Empire. Nor did he give a shit about saving it- he destroyed it to ensure his own power and wipe out the Jedi.

Again the assumption that the true and systemic problems of the Republic were the work of Palpantine vice being prexisting and exploited by Palpatine don't really mesh with what we are told. Sure it's the simple answer, I prefer more depth to my SW.

Was the Republic a perfect system before Palpatine? No, probably not. The Jedi Order as its depicted in the Prequels alone poses huge moral concerns relating to child soldiers, a biologically "superior" elite being give power to enforce the law, and the separation of church and state.

But that does not mean that your depiction of Palpatine is even close to correct.

In any case shall we go through the list of invaders Rome survived unti it didn't? The number of rebellions the Russian Monarchy withstood until they didn't? You keep saying the Republic survived all these crises. Well surviving something doesn't mean unscathed. What doesn't kill does not in fact always make you stronger For all we know the weakness of the Republic we observe that would allow Palpantine to pull off what they did may be the culmination of the effects all those millennia of wounds.

Perhaps. Though a lot of the stuff that happened to the Republic in the EU is non-canon now.

What seems more likely; a single person (even a space wizard) subverting well functioning near utopian (if you take the way so many characters talk about it anyway) system of awesomeness or said person exploiting a corrupt and failing institution?

What about a flawed but not inherently doomed system which was pushed over the edge by the machinations of a madman in power when a better leader could have saved it?

[The Romulan Republic]

I'll add that I just watched some clips of the opening of Phantom Menace, and they suggested that without Palpatine's urging, the Trade Federation would likely have folded at the mere presence of Jedi. Whatever flaws the Republic had, this suggests that they had least had the ability to enforce some semblance of law and peace in their territory, until Palpatine forged a stronger foe to attack them. And of course they faced no major outside threat.

Their was festering corruption, but that doesn't look like a government that's about to collapse.

[NecronLord]

Frankly, Palpatine didn't have to be a Sith for that to work. The only reason he needed Sith powers to subvert the Republic was:
1) It made it easier to take control of the Separatists, and
2) It allowed him to cancel out the Jedi's powers that might otherwise have stopped him.

That cancelling out the jedi powers is the most significant thing; he would have failed if it weren't for that. He most certainly needed to be a sith for his plan to work.



What's a normal politician going to do, whip out a blaster and shoot them?

The EU has it that the Jedi have been forced to take control of the Republic before, and did eventually cede control back to the democratic process.

[Simon_Jester]

The point is that the broad outlines of the plan were potentially valid even for a non-Sith. The main difference is that a non-Sith would have had to orchestrate a 'disappearance' to a location beyond the Jedi's reach and/or create physical security that could stop the Jedi.

In any case shall we go through the list of invaders Rome survived unti it didn't? The number of rebellions the Russian Monarchy withstood until they didn't? You keep saying the Republic survived all these crises. Well surviving something doesn't mean unscathed. What doesn't kill does not in fact always make you stronger For all we know the weakness of the Republic we observe that would allow Palpantine to pull off what they did may be the culmination of the effects all those millennia of wounds.

Perhaps. Though a lot of the stuff that happened to the Republic in the EU is non-canon now.

The main issue is that if Patroklos were right about that, you'd expect the Republic to have been unusually fragile hundreds of years prior to the events of the movies, and that does not appear to have been the case, or at least there is no evidence for it. You'd expect the "wounded" Republic to be slowly falling apart over a period of many centuries, sort of like the Galactic Empire in Isaac Asimov's Foundation series.

But there is little evidence for this. The Trade Federation in Episode I seems to take the Republic seriously even if they're prepared to defy it.

The CIS in Episode II consists of numerous factions who all have to be brought together by a charismatic leader before they're willing to defy the Republic. There aren't any random opportunistic pillagers attacking the Republic because they see it as "weak," the way that various barbarian tribes attacked the Roman Empire in the century or two before its fall.

And the very fact that the Republic could mobilize forces to match the CIS in Episode III strongly suggests that they were still a functional state, given that the CIS controlled a large part of the galaxy. Historically, the Romans lost the ability to efficiently oppose invading armies well before they ceased to exist as a state.

What seems more likely; a single person (even a space wizard) subverting well functioning near utopian (if you take the way so many characters talk about it anyway) system of awesomeness or said person exploiting a corrupt and failing institution?

What about a flawed but not inherently doomed system which was pushed over the edge by the machinations of a madman in power when a better leader could have saved it?

Yeah. I mean, Palpatine spent literally all his time for ten years or so trying to overthrow the Republic, plus an indefinite amount of time before that getting his preparations in order. And for much of that time he ran the Republic.

If it were going to be that easy to topple the Republic, then it wouldn't have taken ten-plus years to do it... and it would probably have been easier for Palpatine to stage a Republic defeat and take over as Emperor from the CIS side of the line. That was a realistic option for him, after all, and with luck he could even have stayed in place as leader of the Republic while quietly manipulating the 'victorious' CIS to destroy opposition to his rule.

[NecronLord]

The point is that the broad outlines of the plan were potentially valid even for a non-Sith. The main difference is that a non-Sith would have had to orchestrate a 'disappearance' to a location beyond the Jedi's reach and/or create physical security that could stop the Jedi.

Potentially no such place exists. In the Clone Wars series the Jedi Council meditates to find the location of Cad Bane, use force vision to find him on the outer rim, and then send Obi Wan and Anakin to get him. This is with their power diminished by the Shroud of the Dark Side.

[Purple]

So get one of those force canceling things from the EU.

[NecronLord]

So get one of those force canceling things from the EU.

Clone Wars is canon, and stands even when you sweep EU into the bin, and piss on it.

[NecronLord]

But humouring you and talking EU stuff, assuming you mean Yasilmiri, it's worth noting the same book that introduces them states that the Republic controlled access to Mykyr and that Talon Karrde was the first guy to work out how to get them off their trees without killing them. So no, no mundane politician could have one, unless he went to hide on Mykyr.

Now, moving on, for those not familiar with the scene:



Note how they mention the 'Shroud of the Dark Side' - without Palpatine being a sith, this divination would be even better.

[Purple]

Or you could find a place strong in the dark side and hide there. Worked for Yoda. The guy with the most powerful force presence out there (on the "good" side) and probably public enemy #1.

[NecronLord]

Stop telling your hoary legends and talk about canon.

Yoda went to Dagobah because he could commune with the spirit of Qui Gon Jinn there. Learn your Clone Wars.

EDIT: There's also no reason to think that the sith possess equivalent divination powers to the Jedi. "A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, never for attack." We've no reason to believe from canonical information that the Sith are as skilled in gaining knowledge from the force. This is perhaps heresy to many steeped in the EU, where the sith can do everything the Jedi can do and more, but there's no reason to think that the Sith have access to every Jedi power, any more than Jedi have force lightning.

[Crazedwraith]

Stop telling your hoary legends and talk about canon.

Yoda went to Dagobah because he could commune with the spirit of Qui Gon Jinn there. Learn your Clone Wars.

That's that an arsehole way to put it at all.

EDIT: There's also no reason to think that the sith possess equivalent divination powers to the Jedi. "A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, never for attack." We've no reason to believe from canonical information that the Sith are as skilled in gaining knowledge from the force. This is perhaps heresy to many steeped in the EU, where the sith can do everything the Jedi can do and more, but there's no reason to think that the Sith have access to every Jedi power, any more than Jedi have force lightning.

Aside from precog was clearly the Emperor's thing. "Everything is proceeding a I have forseen" and so on.

[Purple]

Stop telling your hoary legends and talk about canon.

So the movies are not cannon any more? Dam. If the cannon has changed so much at this point I genuinely do not feel confident continuing this discussion any more.

[Adam Reynolds]

Note how they mention the 'Shroud of the Dark Side' - without Palpatine being a sith, this divination would be even better.

In fairness, part of that was also due to the war itself. Though Sith were undoubtedly a major reason that this was the case.

EDIT: There's also no reason to think that the sith possess equivalent divination powers to the Jedi. "A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, never for attack." We've no reason to believe from canonical information that the Sith are as skilled in gaining knowledge from the force. This is perhaps heresy to many steeped in the EU, where the sith can do everything the Jedi can do and more, but there's no reason to think that the Sith have access to every Jedi power, any more than Jedi have force lightning.

Aren't Palpatine's elaborate plans at least partially based on his divination abilities? While Jedi might use it for that to a greater degree in their prime, with the galaxy in darkness it is likely that Palpatine is more able to see the future. Though it is likely that Jedi and Sith are not as able to see each other, hence why the Sith are less reliant on it(as they are more likely to expect a confrontation with Jedi than the other way around).

I am partial to the theory that Jedi and Sith precog is dependant upon the state of the galaxy. When the galaxy is at peace, Jedi are more able to see the future. When it is in darkness, Sith are. It would explain why Palpatine lost at Endor. The galaxy was becoming a lighter place due to Luke's efforts, something Palpatine didn't see coming in the same manner that the Jedi failed to see him coming.

Or you could find a place strong in the dark side and hide there. Worked for Yoda. The guy with the most powerful force presence out there (on the "good" side) and probably public enemy #1.

Even if that were why he was able to hide,* how would a non-Force sensitive know where it was?

* It also would beg the question of how Obi-Wan was able to hide. If Yoda was successful because of the Dark Side cave, why was Obi-Wan not found? A better answer is that like the Sith who hid before them, the Jedi avoided using their powers overtly.

So the movies are not cannon any more? Dam. If the cannon has changed so much at this point I genuinely do not feel confident continuing this discussion any more.

The dark side cave is canon. The idea that Yoda hid there because of this came from Heir to the Empire. And the idea that somehow the two cancel each other out is also from the EU. When Yoda and Palpatine were fighting, would it have made a fellow Force user less likely to see either?

[The Romulan Republic]

It should be noted that in Revenge of the Sith, Palpatine is able to sense some of what is happening to Anakin on Mustafar while he is duelling Obi-wan.

[Purple]

The dark side cave is canon. The idea that Yoda hid there because of this came from Heir to the Empire. And the idea that somehow the two cancel each other out is also from the EU. When Yoda and Palpatine were fighting, would it have made a fellow Force user less likely to see either?

I always thought that the idea that Yoda was hiding there because the dark side presence on the planet was simply strong enough to make anyone searching for a force presence chalk what ever he felt, Yoda included up to a known phenomenon was rather obvious from the original movie. There is no need for anything to cancel out. It's simply a case of whispering whilst standing behind a huge loudspeaker banging heavy metal. Nobody is going to hear you. After all, why else would he be living next to a dark side cave all these years?

[The Romulan Republic]

To use it to train Luke?

[NecronLord]

That's that an arsehole way to put it at all.

I see no reason to hold back. This board has long cherished rudeness as part of its culture.

Aside from precog was clearly the Emperor's thing. "Everything is proceeding a I have forseen" and so on.

He never does anything comparable to this in any canon source. He doesn't go 'The Rebels are on a world of pyramids and trees, Yavin IV I see.'

The Jedi in the above scene get multiple locations a wanted individual will be. He never does anything comparable.

Aren't Palpatine's elaborate plans at least partially based on his divination abilities?

He can't track people in the same precision. The sith lords don't use the force to track Obi-Wan, General Dodonna or Kanan, or anyone else.

The fact is, the Dark Side does not give the Sith enough clairvoyance to find the rebels' hidden fortress. But it gave the Jedi enough clairvoyance to say exactly where Cad Bane was, and where he had been, and where he was going to be. The Jedi are clearly superior in this area.

Palpatine lies on screen about his abilities to boost Anakin's faith in him; he is not as capable as the Jedi in force divination, because he does not demonstrate that ability in a canon source. Sure, in the EU he could do all that, and in the EU he could break super star destroyers in half and create wormholes with the force.

I always thought that the idea that Yoda was hiding there because the dark side presence on the planet was simply strong enough to make anyone searching for a force presence chalk what ever he felt, Yoda included up to a known phenomenon was rather obvious from the original movie. There is no need for anything to cancel out. It's simply a case of whispering whilst standing behind a huge loudspeaker banging heavy metal. Nobody is going to hear you. After all, why else would he be living next to a dark side cave all these years?

Clone Wars has an episode all about Yoda discovering Dagobah, and why he later goes there. Here, for instance, is Yoda's first vision in the cave:



No mention of the story given in Heir to the Empire appears in the episode.

[Elheru Aran]

Palpatine's divinations, IMO, are more a matter of long-range predictions based upon a deep knowledge of psychology both human and alien, and familiarity with the long game being played by the Sith-- the people being influenced, the plans set into motion and so forth. He knows stuff is going to happen because he's behind it all, not because he foresaw it-- it's just convenient for him to say 'all is planning as I have foreseen' because it plays better with his audience.

For example, he was quite aware he might have to fight Jedi in his chambers, so he secreted a lightsaber there. He strung Anakin along to the point where Skywalker was a confidante-- becoming quite familiar with his character in the process-- and so when he tipped his hand that he was a Sith, he knew Anakin would probably tell the Jedi but still be willing to follow him given the proper push.

Fact of the matter is Palpatine had the Republic and Separatists both sewn up in a nice knot, and he knew it. All he had to do was exert influence one way or another to get what he wanted. No particular divination needed, apart from being able to stay on his toes and change plans as needed.

[NecronLord]

Yeah, Palpatine was an excellent political player, no doubt about that.

But when challenged to prove his clairvoyance, Vader just has to choke the guy who says it.

The Jedi, including Anakin when he was one, can actually do it.

[Elheru Aran]

Does Luke being drawn to Cloud City from Dagobah provide any evidence that the Sith have clairvoyance, knowing that Skywalker would be attracted to Han and Leia being tormented by the Imperials? Or was it more Vader knowing that if Skywalker had any Jedi training whatsoever (perhaps figuring that Luke had more time with Obi-wan than he actually did), he would be able to do so?

[NecronLord]

I would say it was the latter. Luke, not Vader, experienced the visions. Vader simply knew that torturing his friends would make him want to come.

Vader needed a non-force sensitive to hunt down Han and the others, after all. He didn't just do what Yoda and co did there, and focus on Han Solo until he saw Cloud City.