Could the Galactic Republic have been spared?

[Purple]

Clone Wars has an episode all about Yoda discovering Dagobah, and why he later goes there. Here, for instance, is Yoda's first vision in the cave:

That basically reinforces my point. Yoda walks into a cave with massive force energies. So later when he needs to hide he remembers it and figures that the background force will be able to drown out his own signature. And I am not talking about intergalactic clairvoyance here but about Vader sitting in a star destroyer in orbit trying to sense him like he did with Luke in ROTJ.

[NecronLord]

You got that idea from Heir to the Empire, though, it's nowhere in the films.

[Purple]

You got that idea from Heir to the Empire, though, it's nowhere in the films.

No, I got the idea from the films through common sense deduction based off what I have seen. I am quite certain of this because I have in fact not ever heard of this "Heir to the Empire" thing other than from you just now. Why are you so hell bent on convincing me that I got something from a EU source I have newer even heard off even in the face of me explaining my train of thought explicitly?

[The Romulan Republic]

I am rather skeptical that you could post in the Star Wars section of this forum for long and not have at least heard of Heir to the Empire.

[Adam Reynolds]

Looking at the scene shown in Clone Wars of Jedi clarvoience, I wonder if they were as effective as they were because they were looking for individuals who were Force sensitive(the younglings).

[Purple]

I am rather skeptical that you could post in the Star Wars section of this forum for long and not have at least heard of Heir to the Empire.

I have heard the name but that's all. I do not read the EU. And thus I am 100% unfamiliar with its contents. My entire exposure to Star Wars have been the movies and maybe 10 episodes of the clone wars cartoon.

[NecronLord]

And a couple thousand posts on this board. Where presumably you've heard this theory before.

Heir to the Empire is the book that introduced Grand Admiral Thrawn. Even if you've not read it, you presumably know quite a bit about Thrawn's character through osmosis, no?

[Purple]

And a couple thousand posts on this board. Where presumably you've heard this theory before.

No. The theory I speak off is something I came up as a kid long before I ever came to this forum as an explanation for why the old jedi master lives in such a dump of a world. Why would Yoda ever want to live in a swamp where things are out to eat him when he could have found some nicer place like Obi Wan did? Well the answer is obvious. Because it somehow helps him hide. Why must you insist I have no capacity for critical thought?

Here it is once again for the stupids:
1. Vader can sense a force user (Obi Wan) being present on the same Moon Sized Battle Station. He can however not sense Luke. This implies that whilst he can sense other force users their strength matters in reference to the range he can do so at. This is corroborated in ROTJ when Luke has grown more powerful and now Vader can sense him across god knows how many kilometers of space.
2. Yoda is stronger in the force than Obi Wan or Luke. Ergo Vader should be able to sense him from further away.
3. Yoda does not seem to want to be found by Vader.

Ergo Yoda must have made a plan to hide near something else strong in the force so that if Vader ever stops by searching he can hide in that cave and Vader will walk by, maybe sniff around a bit and conclude that what he felt must have been the cave. Than Vader calls it a false lead and leaves and Yoda can emerge back into the swamp.

It's just so plainly obvious that I could see it when I was IIRC 8 years old.

Heir to the Empire is the book that introduced Grand Admiral Thrawn. Even if you've not read it, you presumably know quite a bit about Thrawn's character through osmosis, no?

I do. But not much. He is like this smart imperial admiral guy with a strangely colored face that appeared in some books. And his special power is that he is so smart that he is smart enough to be a threat to the Jedi or some such. I know he appears in a mod for a video game I plaid once.

[RogueIce]

Frankly, Palpatine didn't have to be a Sith for that to work. The only reason he needed Sith powers to subvert the Republic was:
1) It made it easier to take control of the Separatists, and
2) It allowed him to cancel out the Jedi's powers that might otherwise have stopped him.

That cancelling out the jedi powers is the most significant thing; he would have failed if it weren't for that. He most certainly needed to be a sith for his plan to work.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YBLcxXR1PMw

What's a normal politician going to do, whip out a blaster and shoot them?

I would note, however, that if Palpatine were not a Sith Lord, but instead just a hugely skilled mundane, this showdown might never have happened.

Remember, the Jedi only went to confront him because Dooku and Grievous were dead (and this somehow meant the war was "over" because reasons but whatever). Except, it was Palpatine who set them both up to fall. Without his direct influence, we don't know when (or if) the Jedi Order would have eventually gotten around to it.

Recall: Palpatine sets up Anakin to kill Dooku to make room for a new Apprentice (and I'm pretty sure his "capture" was set up by him, since he was pulling the strings and all). A non-Sith would not have needed that. And if it weren't for Palpatine informing the Jedi about "clone intelligence" spotting Grievous on Utapau, they would not have known to send Obi-wan to engage him there.

So basically that whole showdown was engineered to happen by Palpatine, at a time when he wanted it to happen. If Palpatine were non-Sith, there's a good chance he would have set things up differently, to precipitate his end game in a manner most advantageous for him. Of course it's pure speculation how it would have turned out, because 1) we don't know what he would have planned and 2) maybe the Jedi get lucky anyway and off Dooku/Grievous on their own, despite three years of no success.

But we'll never know. Still, I'd say it's disingenuous to use the exact movie scenario as "non-Sith Palpatine couldn't do it" because that was deliberately set up by Palpatine and we'll never know what non-Sith Palpatine's end-game would have been.

[NecronLord]

They were however, talking about removing him from office before they knew he was the sith lord. Windu was on his way to do that before Anakin told him.

Of course they might not have been involved if they thought there was no sith anywhere, but the Jedi were certainly willing to arrest a non-force using chancellor. And if we say 'well if there was no sith anywhere they might not have done anything' then we're into a sort of sophilism as then we've invalidated all their canon actions as a basis for discussion.

[Simon_Jester]

I would note, however, that if Palpatine were not a Sith Lord, but instead just a hugely skilled mundane, this showdown might never have happened.

Remember, the Jedi only went to confront him because Dooku and Grievous were dead (and this somehow meant the war was "over" because reasons but whatever). Except, it was Palpatine who set them both up to fall. Without his direct influence, we don't know when (or if) the Jedi Order would have eventually gotten around to it.

Yes, but it presumably would have happened anyway- unless the CIS was going to win, sooner or later the Jedi would be in a position to say "okay, war's over, time to arrest the Chancellor for exceeding his remit." Although a non-Sith politician would not have had an incentive to motivate the Jedi to do that, granted... if his eventual goal was to become emperor he still would've had to do that. He'd still need Order 66 and all the rest. Some kind of confrontation with the Jedi would have been likely- but a non-Sith would probably have tried harder to avoid that.

[Crazedwraith]

Yeah, Palpatine was an excellent political player, no doubt about that.

But when challenged to prove his clairvoyance, Vader just has to choke the guy who says it.

The Jedi, including Anakin when he was one, can actually do it.

Weird thought: What about Maul? Didn't the Sith have enough clairvoyance to send him to Tatooiene in TPM? I've forgotten the sequence events with Bibble's message. Did that give them away?

[NecronLord]

Weird thought: What about Maul? Didn't the Sith have enough clairvoyance to send him to Tatooiene in TPM? I've forgotten the sequence events with Bibble's message. Did that give them away?

"Tatooine is sparsely populated. If the trace was correct, I will find them quickly, Master"

I believe Maul is talking about the transmission Bibble sent, which was before he left Coruscant.

[RogueIce]

They were however, talking about removing him from office before they knew he was the sith lord. Windu was on his way to do that before Anakin told him.

Of course they might not have been involved if they thought there was no sith anywhere, but the Jedi were certainly willing to arrest a non-force using chancellor. And if we say 'well if there was no sith anywhere they might not have done anything' then we're into a sort of sophilism as then we've invalidated all their canon actions as a basis for discussion.

Yes, but that was based on Grievous having just been killed (and earlier Dooku's death) which provided the justification (in their minds) for their arrest attempt; or rather, storming his office and demanding he cede power. But since Palpatine was the one who set up both of the CIS leaders to fall, I'm just positing he may have done so in a different time and manner that would work out better for him (see my reply to Simon_Jester below).

Yes, but it presumably would have happened anyway- unless the CIS was going to win, sooner or later the Jedi would be in a position to say "okay, war's over, time to arrest the Chancellor for exceeding his remit." Although a non-Sith politician would not have had an incentive to motivate the Jedi to do that, granted... if his eventual goal was to become emperor he still would've had to do that. He'd still need Order 66 and all the rest. Some kind of confrontation with the Jedi would have been likely- but a non-Sith would probably have tried harder to avoid that.

Granted, but...would he have been alone in his office when he did this? What if he had a dozen Senators there when the Jedi came to arrest him? A bunch of holo-cameras broadcasting live to the galaxy?

Of course the confrontation with the Jedi may have been less of a confrontation if he wasn't a Sith. I would bet that at least part of Mace Windu's very direct approach (igniting lightsabers immediately upon entry, the equivalent to US Marshals going to arrest POTUS with guns drawn even if he's all alone in the Oval Office) was undoubtedly informed by Anakin's revelation. The Jedi may have been less willing to directly attack (or consider him less of a physical threat, requiring drawn-and-ignited lightsabers on their part) the Supreme Chancellor if they didn't know/suspect (Mace did say "if this is true" when leaving Anakin, after all) that Palpatine was a Sith Lord in the first place.

So really it's difficult to say how it would go down for a non-Sith Palpatine. Both in how he would arrange the confrontation (and we can reasonably assume there would be one) and how the Jedi would comport themselves if they didn't believe he was a powerful dark Force user and their mortal ideological enemy - as opposed to a "mere" power-mad politician.

[NecronLord]

Perhaps, but at that point our options are wide open. Certainly the Non Sith Mastermind might arrange a different Jedi trap.

Within the legends continuity, these questions are answered: the RotS novel is on record as saying that the jedi trap contrived by the Clone Wars and the involvement of the Sith was the most effective possible trap that could be used against them.

Within the canon, it's an almost unanswerable question. Fertile ground for fan-fiction, but without the sith element, and the shroud of the dark side, perhaps the Jedi would detect the treason right away? Or perhaps they would not be involved in the conflict at all and loyally become Imperial Knights?

[RogueIce]

Within the canon, it's an almost unanswerable question. Fertile ground for fan-fiction, but without the sith element, and the shroud of the dark side, perhaps the Jedi would detect the treason right away? Or perhaps they would not be involved in the conflict at all and loyally become Imperial Knights?

Heck non-Sith Palpatine may not have succeeded like he did in the first place. After all, you've brought up the dispute over his foresight ability. If you're right, it's conceivable a non-Sith could do it. But if you're not, we don't know to what extent Palpatine's successes were due to said foresight; it's entirely possible a non-Sith, lacking such foresight, could never have juggled a galactic war like Palptine did and thus wouldn't be able to reach the end-game regardless. Or at least, would have come up with an entirely different plan for subverting the Republic.

So yeah, within Canon and Canon alone we just lack the necessary data and details to do much more than speculate. Perhaps at some point the nuEU will fill in enough gaps we could revisit this with more certainty.

I mean, without Legends we don't even have the Jedi taking over the Republic leadership in the past, do we? I don't remember if Mace mentions it in Ep3 proper. So we can't even really know how the galaxy would react to something that may or may not be unprecedented.

[Adam Reynolds]

Heck non-Sith Palpatine may not have succeeded like he did in the first place. After all, you've brought up the dispute over his foresight ability. If you're right, it's conceivable a non-Sith could do it. But if you're not, we don't know to what extent Palpatine's successes were due to said foresight; it's entirely possible a non-Sith, lacking such foresight, could never have juggled a galactic war like Palptine did and thus wouldn't be able to reach the end-game regardless. Or at least, would have come up with an entirely different plan for subverting the Republic.

As Necronlord pointed out, if nothing else, the shroud of the Darkside would have been much less likely to be effective without the influence of Sith. Thus a non-Sith would be forced to deal with Jedi that can sense his intentions. Look at how casually Qui-Gon was able to sense the general emoitions of the TF leadership at Naboo. Also consider that the TF leadership was terrified about the possibility of being stuck in the same room as a Jedi, presumably because their plans would be discovered.

Going by the movies let's contrast Jedi and Sith long term foresight(as distinct from combat foresight). Part of the problem is that we see far less of what the Sith are doing and thus are less likely to see how well they can see the future.

It does show several indications of Jedi foresight, among the best in the series. Qui-Gon recieves a premonition that the Sith would kill Padme if she stays on Naboo("My feelings tell me they will destroy you"). Qui-Gon was also utterly convinced that Anakin would win, which potentially indicates that he could foresee this outcome. The Jedi Council are also fairly effective overall. While they have the obvious blindspot of the Sith return, they do predict that Maul would return on Naboo, though it is possible that it was more of a general prediction than foresight. They also correctly point out how cloudy Anakin's future is.

TPM shows no indication of Sith foresight. Palpatine is apparently surprised by Padme's decision to attack the TF directly(twice mentioning that it is an unexpected move) and when looking for Padme on Tatooine, they rely on a trace. Though in his discussion with the TF leadership, it is possible that he was concealing his powers and knew they would lose, not caring because he had already became Chancellor. He does however give the command to Darth Maul to be mindful and Maul was able to sense where the attack would come from and stop the Jedi.

AOTC clearly shows the abilities of the Jedi weakening, with their inability to sense the creation of the Clone Army as well as virtually everything they state with regard to Dooku is wrong. We also see this with Obi-Wan in AOTC in contrast to Qui-Gon in TPM. When investigating the Kaminioans, Obi-Wan states that there appears to be no motive. Qui-Gon in TPM states that he senses an unusual amount of fear. Only Yoda truly recognizes that Jedi foresight is less effective, as Mace Windu walks directly into an ambush, confident that his abilities would protect him. They obviously did not.

Sith foresight in the same film is, along with their motivations, a complete mystery. Dooku almost never seems surprised in the film, realizing that the Jedi are about to appear as well as his clear lack of surprise at the presence of the Clone Army(though both of those facts could also have been revealed by Palpatine). The finale also indicates that Palpatine and Dooku foresaw and planned for nearly every event in the film. Though how much of that is planning and how much is foresight is unknown.

ROTS gives some indication of Jedi foresight even in the darkness, with Yoda sensing Order 66 while Mace Windu was able to sense a plot to destroy the Jedi. But it was obviously not enough to have a significant impact as they obviously loose. It is possible that Obi-Wan has a premonition that he would be able to defeat Anakin if he drew him into the open, though it is more likely that was simply a prediction based on how well he knew Anakin's weaknesses.

ROTS again shows little of whether the Sith are simply very good planners or whether they have foresight. Though the risks that Palpatine is willing to take throughout the film indicates foresight. He is willing to allow himself to be captured by the CIS and held at lightsaber point by Anakin as well as Mace Windu.

ANH gives little indication of Jedi or Sith foresight and several instances of evidence against it. Obi-Wan is able to sense the destruction of Alderaan. As Necronlord pointed out, Vader seemed incapable of using his abilities to discover the location of the Rebel base. Vader does recognize the threat of the Rebel attack instantly, thought that is another case where it is just as likely that he was simply making a normal prediction rather than a Force based one.

ESB gives solid evidence of premonition on both sides. Vader and the Emperor both recognize the threat of Luke, with Vader obviously attempting to underplay it as he was always intending to convert Luke and kill the Emperor(notice that from the beginning of the film Vader was obsessed finding Luke, the Emperor's call told him nothing that he didn't already know). Vader is also able to determine with certainty that Luke is on Hoth. Yoda similarly recognizes the threat of Bespin and is able to see a degree of what will occur, that Luke would be strongly tempted by the Dark Side, though his primary predictions are all wrong. Luke appearing does in fact save everyone else through the presence of R2.

ROTJ puts the nail in the coffin of the idea that Sith lack foresight. The Emperor mentions the existence directly("Everything is proceeding as I have foreseen"). Though obviously it is less useful than in the past given that the Emperor is defeated by a series of unknown knowns*.

ROTJ also gives evidence that Luke is beginning to develop foresight. His high-risk plan against Jabba goes off without a hitch. He similarly was able to sense that Vader might be redeemed. While his abilities also relied on a lot of luck(and faith in his friends), they were unlikely to simply be lucky guesses(after all, there is no such thing as luck).

My theory of Force clairvoyance is that it is based on the level of darkness in the Force at the time. When the galaxy is in darkness, Sith are more easily able to sense events. When the galaxy is in the light, Jedi are more able to sense events. These events are generally caused by opposing Force users.

The ANH example is the odd man out and so requires an explanation. It is possible that as the Force was beginning to become lighter, through the military sucess of the Rebel Alliance, the Dark Side was momentarily clouded. It also coincided with the imminent reveal of Luke and reemergence of Obi-Wan. Thus Vader was less able to see and was not in a position where he could admit such a thing to anyone in the Empire. Going into ESB, with Imperial military sucess and the death of Obi-Wan, the Dark Side would again be stronger and Vader would be more able to see. Yoda was hampered in this era with his prediction regarding Bespin, fitting an increase in darkness. ROTJ fits with the full development of Luke as a Jedi Knight and his growing effectiveness in the Force. This fits with the decrease in the quality of the Emperor's predictions. If the majority of those premonitions came during the time frame of ESB, it is possible he was simply noting that they were coming true and thus believed that there was no sign his abilities had faltered even as they had.

* This is of course a reference to Donald Rumsfeld's infamous speech. It is the category he left out. The things that we do not wish to know. In the case of Iraq virtually all experts knew that sectarian violence was a significant possibility. They ignored the chances of this occurring. As for Endor, the Emprie clearly knew about the threat of clever Rebel tactics(as shown on Hoth) and about the fact that the Ewoks existed. They never considered that these two factors could lead to a Rebel victory.

[Patroklos]

who set them both up to fall. Without his direct influence, we don't know when (or if) the Jedi Order would have eventually gotten around to ites, but it presumably would have happened anyway- unless the CIS was going to win, sooner or later the Jedi would be in a position to say "okay, war's over, time to arrest the Chancellor for exceeding his remit." Although a non-Sith politician would not have had an incentive to motivate the Jedi to do that, granted... if his eventual goal was to become emperor he still would've had to do that. He'd still need Order 66 and all the rest. Some kind of confrontation with the Jedi would have been likely- but a non-Sith would probably have tried harder to avoid that.

The remit? Are we ever told how the mechanics of his emergency power work? From the movie they say nothing other than "he must" but don't make it sound like he is required to by law (established by whatever the meat of the Senate resolution was, but rather he SHOULD and the Jedi WANT him to. Why are the Jedi demanding this instead of having the Senate do so?

[The Romulan Republic]

As I recall, they talked about Palpatine giving up emergency powers, potentially implying that it was (short of a coup), at his discretion.

Edit: Or perhaps the Senate could have voted to take them away, just as they gave them, but they were pretty much in Palpatine's pocket.

[NecronLord]

Why are we talking about legalities? The Jedi work on moral arguments. If they decide a chancellor's becoming a tyrant, they are quite prepared to move against him regardless of the law.

[RogueIce]

Why are we talking about legalities? The Jedi work on moral arguments. If they decide a chancellor's becoming a tyrant, they are quite prepared to move against him regardless of the law.

Well, they do work for the Senate by the time of the OT, or are at the very least very closely linked with the government of the Republic.

In any event, it could still be a useful gauge of just how the Senate (and Republic as a whole) would react. I mean, we already know from TCW public sentiment was turning against the Jedi already. If they went against the Senate like this (demanding Palpatine give up powers he was not legally required to) could easily be spun as the Jedi "knowing better than the Senate" and subverting their will and all that. Plus, "taking control of the Senate" could have set off a lot of problems too, especially if Palpatine wasn't doing anything illegal (that they could prove, remember; audience knowledge doesn't mean the Jedi could prove it IU).

Maybe before the war they could have done it, but with how much of their moral authority they were clearly losing by the end of the Clone Wars? The Separatists may have been the least of their worries.

[Eternal_Freedom]

While Palpatine legally may not ahve had to give up those emergency powers, he did say publicly when accepting them "[these powers] I will lay down once this crisis has abated." So politically he should at least be expected to.

I can't recall the exact details, but I think the Jedi plan, before Anakin tells them Palpatine is a Sith Lord, was to confront the Chancellor, tell him the war was over, ask him to set aside the emergency powers and let the Senate take control again. Only if he refuses would they then take action against him.

And since the Jedi were effectively the Republic High Command at this point (being Generals and all), I don't think it's unreasonable for them to contemplate such contingencies. It'd be like, I dunno, the US President declaring martial law to deal with some insurrection in, say, Texas, and then the Joint Chiefs going to ask him to cancel martial law once the crisis ends but having discussed what they might do if the President says "nah."

[NecronLord]

Of course, given that the Jedi we see who are responsible for warcrimes, Dooku and General Pong Krell, were corrupted directly and indirectly by Palpatine being a sith, their moral authority might well never be damaged by the war, it could well be that all major incidents are his doing, certainly all known ones are. As I said, it becomes almost sophist, as Palpatine is simply that pivotal that without him there's almost no plot.

[Simon_Jester]

Why are we talking about legalities? The Jedi work on moral arguments. If they decide a chancellor's becoming a tyrant, they are quite prepared to move against him regardless of the law.

I'm not so sure... what makes you say that?

And yes, on the whole, a non-Sith politician would probably have had to settle for propping up figureheads within the CIS rather than having a Dark Jedi like Dooku to do it for him. Grievous could still be in play, though- or someone like him. A non-Sith in Palpatine's place might well have tried to cultivate cyborgs and elite droids as a counter to the Jedi more extensively; I imagine Palpatine was actively trying to avoid that because he didn't want to create any weapons in CIS hands that could later be used against the Sith.

And as noted, a non-Sith would not be able to undermine the political standing of the Jedi with dark Jedi. He might be able to engineer schemes by which the Jedi would be forced to either (in effect) abdicate their positions of military leadership or make moral compromises that weakened their standing. Palpatine doesn't seem to have bothered with this.

[Replicant]

Despite Lucas wanting to show irretrivable corruption and decline, there are strong indications in TPM that major Republic institutions are feared and capable.

Imagine a megacorporation today being visited by two Federal Marshals and the CEO and his advisors literally trembling in dread at the very idea and being prepared to abandon their dispute and make settlement as the President directs.

I kind of assumed that the Viceroy was certain that the Jedi would figure out the Trade Fed were working with the Sith and would not survive the meeting.

Why else would he be so afraid if not for his own personal safety.