US and Gulf allies/Turkey created ISIS to fight Assad

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Re: US and Gulf allies/Turkey created ISIS to fight Assad

Post by Joun_Lord »

K. A. Pital wrote:
Joun_Lord wrote:
Solauren wrote:"Let's fund people to fight the USSR in Afganistan."
"Good idea. Let's look into this Taliban group...."
My history is a bit rusty but I'm relatively sure the Taliban was never supported by Murica.
The Taliban did not exist at the time, but the Mujahid islamic extremists who would later form the core of the group and later the government were selected by ISI, who saw jihad as a tool to further their own objectives, and funded by the CIA.
I know that happened, I more or less said that. My point was that America didn't say "lets support the Taliban because Tali was the worst part of Mass Effect" or anything like that, they didn't support the Taliban even if they did support people who would later on form that horrific and unfashionable group.

Thats not a defense of the US's actions in Afghanistan mind you (which would be impossible if for nothing else then helping create Rambo 3) but more my interest in correcting an inaccurate statement.
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Re: US and Gulf allies/Turkey created ISIS to fight Assad

Post by Fingolfin_Noldor »

Taking all this into context, one can see why Putin decided to move troops right into Damascus really...
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Re: US and Gulf allies/Turkey created ISIS to fight Assad

Post by Kon_El »

K. A. Pital wrote:Except the Sun has been known to explode: funding Islamists in Afghanistan to counter Russia produced the Taliban, funding Islamists in Pakistan to counter India resulted in TORCHLIGHT, a post-WWII genocide easily forgotten because Pakistan was a "Western client". So it was not a matter of ignoring outlandish warnings which nobody thought could come true, but knowing that it happened in the past and could happen again with a high probability.

Thanas is right, that is a bit more malevolent than just "unexpected very low-probability side effect", as the "side" effects of funding radical Islamists were well-known for decades.
Are there any instances of funding groups like this where things didn't blow up in the end?
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Re: US and Gulf allies/Turkey created ISIS to fight Assad

Post by The Grim Squeaker »

Since of course, every analyst's predicted (set) of outcomes comes out true.
And there certainly aren't multiple sets of predictions and forecasts of possible outcomes, for almost any contingency and likelihood.

But no, the one prediction that turned out to be true in RETROSPECT, would have been crushingly obvious to all the armchair generals here if "they'd been the one to read it". Ahuh.

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Re: US and Gulf allies/Turkey created ISIS to fight Assad

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:Taking all this into context, one can see why Putin decided to move troops right into Damascus really...
Yeah, right, Putin's a hero standing up to evil America, not an opportunistic bastard who is simply doing the same thing the worst American leaders have done- fueling brutal wars for the benefit of his own political agenda. :wanker:

You've really bought the Kremlin's line hook line and sinker, haven't you?

Criticize America all you want, as long as your criticisms are truthful, but do not imagine for one second that anything America has done makes Russia the good guy.

You become the good guy by being good, not by happening to be against another bad guy.
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Re: US and Gulf allies/Turkey created ISIS to fight Assad

Post by K. A. Pital »

Oh come on, fucking hindsight? Really? I challenge you to find one instance where Western funding of islamist radicals has not led to Dark Age crazy on a national scale down the road. :lol:
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Re: US and Gulf allies/Turkey created ISIS to fight Assad

Post by Grumman »

The Grim Squeaker wrote:But no, the one prediction that turned out to be true in RETROSPECT, would have been crushingly obvious to all the armchair generals here if "they'd been the one to read it". Ahuh.
This is something I posted more than a year and a half ago. That is not the first time I suggested that we should limit our support of the rebels to stuff that wouldn't come back to bite us, but I cannot remember the exact words I used to prove it.

If you want to accuse me of being wrong in hindsight about Libya, I don't dispute that. But that was before Assad used his chemical weapons, and it doesn't take a psychic to fear that the Syrian rebellion might go bad the same way the Libyan rebellion went bad.
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Re: US and Gulf allies/Turkey created ISIS to fight Assad

Post by Simon_Jester »

Grumman wrote:
The Grim Squeaker wrote:But no, the one prediction that turned out to be true in RETROSPECT, would have been crushingly obvious to all the armchair generals here if "they'd been the one to read it". Ahuh.
This is something I posted more than a year and a half ago. That is not the first time I suggested that we should limit our support of the rebels to stuff that wouldn't come back to bite us, but I cannot remember the exact words I used to prove it.
Thing is, the Arab Spring started five years ago, roughly, and the Syrian protests and rebellions that led to their civil war started in early 2011.

Throughout 2012-13 the dominant narrative of the Syrian Civil War everywhere I remember was of undifferentiated "rebels" fighting Assad. With Assad being the guy chucking nerve gas into urban areas. This is the context in which you can imagine a basically sane and decent person saying "let's help the rebels against this horrible dictator Assad."

Now, it is valid to warn someone that if you help the rebels against Assad, eventually fundamentalist rebels are likely to emerge that will turn out to be even worse than Assad. And there is historical precedent for this view. But it requires no indifference to human life, no evil intent, to say "never mind that, that might not happen, but Assad killing the rebels and being a brutal dictator is happening now."
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Re: US and Gulf allies/Turkey created ISIS to fight Assad

Post by K. A. Pital »

Except that the same narrative was used against secular authoritarian governments like Najibullah's Soviet one in Afghanistan (islamists do not matter because they're REBELS), and even more offensively in the India-Pakistan conflicts where I am sure India, however flawed, represented a head-and-shoulders more of a democracy - even with the Ghandi laws, even with the omnipresent threat of saffronization - than Pakistan which under Yahya and later Zia Ul-Haq committed outright genocide and then tightened the screws and launched a campaign of internal islamization that utterly destroyed an semblance of secular society in that nation.

So "dictator killing rebels" is a particular narrative that gets spun by the media and does not necessarily even lead to action. Saddam used the US-sold chemical and biological weapons against civilians, and who cared? Nobody fucking did. The invasion of Iraq came years later under a totally different pretext - this time it was unruly Saddam hiding WMDs. Assad killed a dozen thousand people to quell the islamist uprising in Hama, and who cared? Nobody.

The particular reasons for intervention on part of the US and other Great Powers are always political, never indifferently-humanitarian. These nations never act to save lives, only to further their own interests. If that coincides with saving lives, it will be used in propaganda, but there is no real humanitarian motivation. Therefore, the question of which wars to intervene in (Libya) and in which wars to firmly stand aside (Yemen - sure let the Saudis bomb the place to shit trying to restore their Sunni puppet) is not decided by humanitarian concerns but by political considerations, which are about as "humane" as a lifeless calculator.

It is simply wrong to think that a massive imperialistic power has any sort of regard for human lives, unless saving said lives helps them achieve their imperialistic goals and score propaganda points along the way.

There are no "sane and humane people" who make the decisions: the government is calling the shots, it is them who decide just how the media will portray a civil war or an international conflict. Therefore, the people who consume the "horrible dictator kills good rebels" narrative are not the ones making the decisions about selling weapons, bombing countries, funding paramilitary organizations. These decisions are made by high-level politicians who set the narrative. It does not matter what the narrative was, because the people at the top set it to be that way.
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Re: US and Gulf allies/Turkey created ISIS to fight Assad

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It's a bit fucking rich claiming that nobody knew the rebels where islamists and/or radicals, when the same fucking document states that they were the driving forces since day one. That might have been unknown to the normal person, but it was not unknown to anybody making the decisions.

That being said Stas, I don't see things quite as easy as you with regards to the media being controlled by a push of the button. Certainly parts of the US media are but I don't think it is quite that far-reaching.
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Re: US and Gulf allies/Turkey created ISIS to fight Assad

Post by K. A. Pital »

Maybe not so clear with German media as Germany is not, for most intents, an imperialistic power any longer and only serves as accessory to the US. I often found the German media to be some of the most anti-imperialistic in Europe, only second behind Sweden's media.

But the mainstream Anglosphere media? Sure they have been pushing a narrative that benefits only the imperialistic circles of the US and Britain - for decades. You'd disagree? Just look at their coverage of Iraq around 2003 or their coverage of the Libyan and Syrian civil wars, or their non-coverage of Yemen.

Even if the media aren't 100% under government thumb, it does not change the key point: attitudes of ordinary people are irrelevant, the politicians who make decisions are informed outside the media narrative (and indeed, the thread itself shows an example that the politicians are given information that is often at odds with the mainstream media portrayal of the situation!), and therefore their decisions are very much informed ones, not misinformed like those of the general populace.
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Re: US and Gulf allies/Turkey created ISIS to fight Assad

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On the latter point I don't disagree.
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Re: US and Gulf allies/Turkey created ISIS to fight Assad

Post by Channel72 »

K. A. Pital wrote:There are no "sane and humane people" who make the decisions: the government is calling the shots, it is them who decide just how the media will portray a civil war or an international conflict. Therefore, the people who consume the "horrible dictator kills good rebels" narrative are not the ones making the decisions about selling weapons, bombing countries, funding paramilitary organizations. These decisions are made by high-level politicians who set the narrative. It does not matter what the narrative was, because the people at the top set it to be that way.
I really think you greatly over-estimate the US government's ability to control and regulate the media landscape. I mean, the Guardian is a pretty big fucking part of the "Anglo-sphere" media, no? And yet they just gleefully print a story about how the evil US government created ISIS in a laboratory or whatever in order to further evil imperialistic goals.

Really, any journalist which can find evidence showing that the US government is doing something EVIL will jump at the chance to publish such a story, win the Pulitzer, and become a legend. In fact, the media actually has more of a commercial motivation to publish stories which depict the government in a negative light, rather than depicting the government in a positive light, because the former sells more advertising space. Naturally, we need to adjust this hypothesis for media outlets which are selling a certain narrative which may sometimes align with the political philosophy of the current Presidential Administration (e.g. FoxNews is unlikely to publish stories critical of a Republican administration) - but in general, the media landscape throughout the West favors journalists and stories which can produce "whistle-blowing", "conspiracy-uncovering" anti-government extravaganzas, as opposed to dull, boring stories which amount to "the government is doing the right thing..., nothing to see here... etc."

Remember, at the end of the day, every journalist's dream is to be the next David Frost.
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Re: US and Gulf allies/Turkey created ISIS to fight Assad

Post by Fingolfin_Noldor »

The Romulan Republic wrote:
Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:Taking all this into context, one can see why Putin decided to move troops right into Damascus really...
Yeah, right, Putin's a hero standing up to evil America, not an opportunistic bastard who is simply doing the same thing the worst American leaders have done- fueling brutal wars for the benefit of his own political agenda. :wanker:

You've really bought the Kremlin's line hook line and sinker, haven't you?

Criticize America all you want, as long as your criticisms are truthful, but do not imagine for one second that anything America has done makes Russia the good guy.

You become the good guy by being good, not by happening to be against another bad guy.
Ah hahahahhahahaha :lol:

You know, you can really give a good laugh can you?

I mean, seriously? I am beginning to wonder if YOU are the one who's drunk on your own koolaid. I mean, seriously, it's obvious as hell that Putin put troops there to 1. buttress Assad, 2. tell NATO to fuck off on its fantasies of a no-air zone, and finally to deal with Islamists who might return to Russia for fun one day.

I mean, seriously, I am wondering if you are too drunk on your own koolaid to admit that there's no such thing as a bad guy or a good guy. There's never been. But then, you have proven repeatedly that you are incapable of seeing beyond that.
Channel72 wrote:I really think you greatly over-estimate the US government's ability to control and regulate the media landscape. I mean, the Guardian is a pretty big fucking part of the "Anglo-sphere" media, no? And yet they just gleefully print a story about how the evil US government created ISIS in a laboratory or whatever in order to further evil imperialistic goals.

Really, any journalist which can find evidence showing that the US government is doing something EVIL will jump at the chance to publish such a story, win the Pulitzer, and become a legend. In fact, the media actually has more of a commercial motivation to publish stories which depict the government in a negative light, rather than depicting the government in a positive light, because the former sells more advertising space. Naturally, we need to adjust this hypothesis for media outlets which are selling a certain narrative which may sometimes align with the political philosophy of the current Presidential Administration (e.g. FoxNews is unlikely to publish stories critical of a Republican administration) - but in general, the media landscape throughout the West favors journalists and stories which can produce "whistle-blowing", "conspiracy-uncovering" anti-government extravaganzas, as opposed to dull, boring stories which amount to "the government is doing the right thing..., nothing to see here... etc."

Remember, at the end of the day, every journalist's dream is to be the next David Frost.
Actually, it's because every journalist dreams to get the best inside scoop from officials that they become very very dependent sucking up to the right people to get the inside scoops. That unfortunately does open them to being manipulated by those said people. It goes two ways mind you.
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Re: US and Gulf allies/Turkey created ISIS to fight Assad

Post by K. A. Pital »

The Guardian is a left-wing journal, it's not even a TV channel. I haven't seen many people whose view would be shaped by the Guardian... outside this board, perhaps. Mainstream media is what people consume on TV, I'd say. That aside, even the Guardian carried this ISIS story very late, at a point when even the dumbest supporters of US policies started smelling something wrong with the turn events took.
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Re: US and Gulf allies/Turkey created ISIS to fight Assad

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Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:Actually, it's because every journalist dreams to get the best inside scoop from officials that they become very very dependent sucking up to the right people to get the inside scoops. That unfortunately does open them to being manipulated by those said people. It goes two ways mind you.
This in a nutshell is why journalists almost universally fail to develop quality information. Look at the amazing failure of the business press in 2008, with what should have been the biggest story in a century. 24 financial networks brought on CEOs of failing companies and asked them pointless questions. The worst case featured a CEO running a Ponzi scheme being asked if he liked being a billionare.

Even for successful cases like Snowden or Manning, the sucess only came from the whistleblowers, not the journalists. And in the classic case of investigative journalism causing political change, Watergate, it occured because Mark Felt was annoyed that he wasn't chosen for the position of FBI director.
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Re: US and Gulf allies/Turkey created ISIS to fight Assad

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I doubt any journalist dreams of becoming the next Snowden or Manning. I doubt they want to shit in a bucket in Gitmo or spend their life in exile in some Third World nation. No, they want fame and money without becoming Enemies of the State. So the narrative may be critical, but it will not be hostile.
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Re: US and Gulf allies/Turkey created ISIS to fight Assad

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Snowden and Manning were not treated as they were because they were hostile to the state- political dissidents are not rounded up and imprisoned in fucking Guantanamo in the US. I was under they impression that they were treated as they were because they leaked classified information, or at least that that's the official justification for it (I suspect some officials would be happy to punish them out of spite because they embarrassed said officials, but they can't do that openly). Now, you can argue that said leaking was justified as whistleblowing. Its not my intention to argue that one way or the other. But it is a distinction you should be honest about, because your insistence on portraying the US as basically a dictatorship where being openly hostile to the government means being tortured in Guantanamo is obviously false.

Their are plenty of valid criticisms one can make of the US, which makes these attempts to portray the US as some boogeyman dictatorship pulling the strings of the entire planet all the more annoying. Its like some people have no subtlety of thought at all.

Let me put it this way: can you name one journalist in recent America history who was imprisoned for no other reason than adopting an anti-government position in their writing which did not involve trying to incite illegal acts? Much less show that this is a common thing as opposed to an anomaly?

Edit: This is presuming that when you refer to journalists being afraid of being imprisoned and so on for being "hostile" toward the government, you are referring to journalists expressing hostile opinions only and not people committing violent acts or incitement of the same. I have no doubt the US government would lock people up for the latter actions, and rightly so.

To be clear, I don't think that you're talking about violent insurrectionists, but because the word "hostile" could mean a variety of things, I wanted to clarify my position.
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Re: US and Gulf allies/Turkey created ISIS to fight Assad

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Imprisoned? I think Bolles, who tried to expose ties between politicians and the mob, was simply killed. Josh Wolf was imprisoned for protecting identities of anti-government protesters. I also remember that prominent BPP members were assassinated by the FBI, which is a direct involvement of the state.

I am sure that in your fairytale world you can be as hostile as you want, but the truth is, once it gets down from abstract criticism to exposing real crimes, like mob-official collusion (in which case murder of the investigator is done by the mobsters with the obvious approval of officials and oligarchs who get away scot-free), like mass surveillance (Snowden) and potential war crimes (Manning), once you start actually being involved with protests that are somehow linked to revolutionary organizations, e.g. radical antiglobalists or BPP - this is no longer a safe world and you can be killed or imprisoned by the state in a multitude of ways. Starting with paying mobsters to kill you and ending with actual direct assassinations like that of Fred Hampton.

I have no idea whether the US journalist community is hostile to its nation. So far mainstream media always treats the US favorably: its misdeeds are allowed to slide into oblivion, even the worst one, while its virtues are extolled day and night in a casual manner. If you belive that your government is being treated to extreme scrutiny, you are simply wrong. Decades of COINTELPRO have erased even the semblance of hostility in the mainstream media and taught the community all about the virtues of self-censorship.

I am sure most journalists do dream of getting some scandal for their own fame, but do they dream of becoming the next Laura Poitras: being harassed, placed on watch lists and threatened by state agents?

http://www.theguardian.com/film/2015/ju ... rd-snowden
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Re: US and Gulf allies/Turkey created ISIS to fight Assad

Post by The Romulan Republic »

K. A. Pital wrote:Imprisoned? I think Bolles, who tried to expose ties between politicians and the mob, was simply killed. Josh Wolf was imprisoned for protecting identities of anti-government protesters. I also remember that prominent BPP members were assassinated by the FBI, which is a direct involvement of the state.
Sources would be nice, since I am not familiar with these cases.

Also, I would appreciate clarification- are you talking about people being killed/imprisoned by individual people or small groups who happened to be in government and were corrupt, or killing/incarceration that was sanctioned at high levels or a policy?

Neither, obviously, is acceptable and both could result in intimidation of journalists, but I nonetheless feel that their is a significant difference between the two and what they would mean for the US as a whole. The former would be a matter of corrupt individuals who must be brought to account, which exists in any large system. The latter would be a systemic problem.
I am sure that in your fairytale world you can be as hostile as you want,
Ah yes, this old straw man. I don't take the most cynical possible interpretation, and therefore I am a naive fool believing a fairy tale. Because their's no option between the land of happily ever after and fluffy bunny rabbits and "US EVIL EMPIRE RULES THE WORLD CONSPIRACY!!!!"

And yes, I know that might be a slight exaggeration of your position, but hey, if you're going to use insulting caricatures of my position, why shouldn't I respond in kind?
but the truth is, once it gets down from abstract criticism to exposing real crimes, like mob-official collusion (in which case murder of the investigator is done by the mobsters with the obvious approval of officials and oligarchs who get away scot-free), like mass surveillance (Snowden) and potential war crimes (Manning),
Which is why all the journalists who covered the NSA spying are in jail. And why all the Republicans falsely harping constantly about Bengazi and Obama not being a citizen were shut down. And, going back a bit further, why the guys who broke the Watergate story were murdered by Richard Nixon.

Oh, wait...

Funny, I've read plenty of reports in the media on crimes committed by officials. Want me to hunt up a dozen-odd links to prove the self-evident?
once you start actually being involved with protests that are somehow linked to revolutionary organizations, e.g. radical antiglobalists or BPP - this is no longer a safe world and you can be killed or imprisoned by the state in a multitude of ways. Starting with paying mobsters to kill you and ending with actual direct assassinations like that of Fred Hampton.
What do you mean by "...revolutionary organizations..."? Because if you mean organizations advocating or practicing violent revolt, then yeah, collaborating with such people will get you in trouble, and rightly so.

I'm starting to think your real problem is not that people can't criticize or even condemn the US government, but that people can't get away with committing illegal or even violent acts against it. I hope I am mistaken about that.

I'm also thinking that you will not be satisfied by any coverage of the US from journalists that doesn't amount to unequivocal hatred and condemnation. Because you acknowledge that journalists can and do criticize the government. But if its not outright hostility towards the US as a nation, you're apparently unsatisfied (as discussed below).

In other words, you demand that the press conform to your anti-American biases, and if it does not, conclude that is being oppressed by the state. Because obviously no one could genuinely disagree with you without being coerced, right?
I have no idea whether the US journalist community is hostile to its nation.
Probably not. Most people aren't. That doesn't require any campaign of government oppression. As an extreme, its called "nationalism"- a common human flaw. On a more basic level, people generally feel fondly about where they live, and that's fine as long as it doesn't blind their ability to think critically.
So far mainstream media always treats the US favorably: its misdeeds are allowed to slide into oblivion, even the worst one, while its virtues are extolled day and night in a casual manner. If you belive that your government is being treated to extreme scrutiny, you are simply wrong. Decades of COINTELPRO have erased even the semblance of hostility in the mainstream media and taught the community all about the virtues of self-censorship.
This is, I feel, exaggerating/oversimplifying at best and at worst descending into outright conspiracy theorist stuff.
I am sure most journalists do dream of getting some scandal for their own fame, but do they dream of becoming the next Laura Poitras: being harassed, placed on watch lists and threatened by state agents?
Presumably not. However, I would note that Poitras is, thus far at least, neither dead nor in prison (and may it stay that way), despite her connection to one of the most significant leaks in American history.
Wonderful. The one claim you provide a source for is the one I already had some familiarity with.
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K. A. Pital
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Re: US and Gulf allies/Turkey created ISIS to fight Assad

Post by K. A. Pital »

I think there is no exaggeration in my claim that mainstream media are sanitized. Find me even one TV channel that would at least carry the same moderate criticism as the Guardian (which, by the way, is not a US newspaper).

I also see no need to serve as your Wikipedia replacement. However, since I am feeling exceptionally fine today...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don_Bolles
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josh_Wolf_(journalist)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_Hampton

I am sure that with some digging I could find more cases - these are just the ones I was aware of already.

You have already proven my point for me. Journalists are nationalistic and want to be David Frost - a safe establishment interviewer, they do not want the fate of Snowden or Manning. I doubt many even want to be Poitras, although she is not jailed. This would naturally limit their investigative curiosity in cases which could be seen as personal danger.

And of course, there will be a nationalistic bias as you said, and given the US actually is a world-spanning Empire that can invade small nations at will even if major nations like Germany and France protest, that can protect itself and its clients from any international liabilities (supplying weapons to nations embargoed for genocide and aggression like Indonesia, blocking UN resolutions on behalf of Israel, keeping special laws that render members of US armed forces, essentially aggressors and often directly implicated in war crimes of torture and murder, fully immune from international prosecution) - they who have a US-favoring bias are useless from the standpoint of criticizing narratives that favor US foreign policy. Which was the subject of the discussion, as I am sure you remember. They may be useful for other things but as far as foreign policy goes, these journalists are as useful as government spokesmen.

It doesn't matter if these journalists are oppressed or not. If they do not criticize fearing oppression, they are victims. If they support and refrain from aggresive criticism because they are nationalists, willing supporters of their aggressor government, willing executioners - they are not victims, but the evil-doers, and there is no excuse for them. If the US is not sanitizing its media, but in fact the whole US society is so rabidly nationalistic and aggressive, then I feel very sad for that country.

And yes, given the actions of the US are crimes that lead to bloody chaos and deaths of hundres of thousands, maybe even millions - yes I think a bit more than meek criticism is justified, a bit more aggressive, perhaps. At least like the Guardian and not like "Support our troops" bullshit. There was and still is plenty of very aggressive criticism for other nations who did not do anything comparable with the US invasion of Iraq, their shenanigans with Pakistan, Indonesia, Saudi Arabia. Why should the US get a a pass? I see no reason.
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cosmicalstorm
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Re: US and Gulf allies/Turkey created ISIS to fight Assad

Post by cosmicalstorm »

So how long until who ever backs the rebels start sending in advanced AA? I wonder how Russia would react seeing one of it's downed pilot BBQ in a cage. It could escalate a lot.

Here is a haunting read from an insider of the civil war, he suggests that guided bombs from Russia are now being used specifically to target large crowds.

What War and Terror Do to Principles
A Young Syrian Recounts the Years in His Smoldering Homeland


Abdo Roumani

Monday, September 21, 2015

Editor’s note: War is hell. And for those living in Syria, hell is currently a way of life. Armchair statesmen and foreign policy mavens have a lot to say about these matters. Here at FEE, we advocate “anything peaceful,” but often in distant, theoretical terms.

In this article, we present the unique opportunity to hear from someone who has lived the Syrian conflict. We cannot verify all of the author’s claims, but we can offer a glimpse into the mind of someone who, though he desperately wants to cling to his ideals, struggles to maintain them as he witnesses his homeland being torn apart.

I lived in Syria for three out of the four and half years of war. I’ve never been physically harmed, even though there were several close calls. In another sense, though, I’ve come to realize this war has killed so much in me that I’ve turned into something completely unfamiliar; something that often works like a calculator.

Benjamin Franklin once said, “Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither.”

Not a long time ago, he used to be my example. I often repeated that line to those who defended the Assad rule, to those who said that his reign was better than the chaos the country had endured from 1958 to 1970. After a catastrophic union with Egypt between 1958 and 1961, Syria had to deal with the aftermath of its failures until 1970, when the late Hafez al-Assad stabilized the country. Until 2011, Syria was very secure socially, economically, and militarily. Damascus was one of the safest cities in the world — but that was irrelevant to me. I believed in certain principles and demonized the regime that failed to live by them.

I would soon change my mind.

Over the last five years, the Syrian establishment has grown more brutal. Those reforms that were foreseeable in 2011, such as limiting the secret service’s influence and empowering political pluralism, now seem impossible. Corruption has reached unprecedented levels. The establishment’s values and propaganda have never been as exposed. And yet, my opposition to this regime has faded so much that I no longer know whether I’m learning to be pragmatic or if I’ve resigned myself, given up my former convictions, and, in the end, traded everything for temporary safety.

Last August was one of the most violent months of the war in Damascus. Once the negotiations collapsed and a ceasefire expired in the strategic border town of al-Zabadani, the rebels controlling the part of the Barada Valley that was home to Damascus’s main source of fresh water cut off water supplies to the capital. That was August 14. The next day, the Syrian military retaliated by bombarding the area, forcing those rebels to turn on the taps again.

As I browsed opposition websites, reading reports of the destruction and the number of casualties, I paused at a photograph of the bodies of three children. The picture didn’t specify whether the children were killed in the August attacks or if this was yet another horrifying image pulled from the seemingly endless archives of carnage caught on film.

They were two little boys, about seven years old, with a slightly older girl lying between them. They were dressed in vibrant colors: navy blue, pink, and yellow. Their outfits were very neat, as though they had just decided to rest for a few moments. There were no signs of trauma. They looked peaceful.

I was thinking of how their parents, if indeed they had survived the bombing, would feel about seeing their children lying dead in those clothes. Would they remember the day they bought the fabrics? Would they remember how they felt picking out something special for their children, excited to see the look of joy on their children’s faces when they brought home the surprise of a new outfit? Or were the children themselves there, carefully selecting just the right shade of yellow for a dress for the first day of ‘Eid — for a future that once seemed certain?

I was thinking of how their parents, if indeed they had survived the bombing, would feel about seeing their children lying dead in those clothes.These children died because rebels in a small town with a tiny population cut off water supplies to millions of people in Damascus, the capital whose community embraces the patchwork of Syria’s ethnoreligious diversity, in the peak of the Middle Eastern summer, where temperatures exceed 104 degrees Fahrenheit. It’s difficult to blame the army for striking the town where they happened to live. The rebels who cut off the water supplies may have done so out of frustration, but the flow still had to return, no matter the cost. The children paid with their lives.

Securing and occupying strategic locations around Damascus — especially those isolated pockets of rebel control where the only aim is to destabilize the capital, not to achieve any strategic goal — is certainly an objective I support. Darayya, which lies on the southwestern gate of the heavily populated capital and faces its most important airbase, is one example.

On August 6, the Islam’s Martyrs Brigade declared Operation Darayya’s Flames, claiming to have killed 70 soldiers on the first day, and capturing strategic buildings near Mezza Airbase. In retaliation, according to Al Jazeera, by August 17, the Syrian military bombed Darayya with 325 barrel bombs, 4 vacuum bombs, 130 surface-to-surface missiles, 375 “hell” shells, 5 naval mines, 585 artillery shells, and 75 napalms. The city’s death toll reached 33 casualties in 11 days, including a woman and 3 children. Another 60 had been injured.

The violence is unspeakable, but when we look at the big picture again, we’ll see how Damascus was subjected to rocket and mortar attacks throughout August as well. On August 12 alone, activists counted 67 mortars fired against Damascus, killing 14 civilians and wounding 70. Saving Damascus, which is also where the majority of Darayya’s citizens took shelter after their city became a war zone, takes priority.

I had to experience that personally in April 2014, when the major battle for my mother’s hometown, Mleha, began. Until 2012, I lived in and owned an apartment in Mleha, which also houses the Air Defense Administration and lies on the road linking Damascus with its international airport. Our town had a population of 25,000 at the time, most of whom fled to Damascus or to the government-held town of Jaramana after the rebels captured the larger part of Mleha and the army began to lay siege by the end of 2012. Nearly 3,000 people lived there under siege until the last week before the battle began, when most of them headed for either the capital or the neighboring towns and cities.

Shortly before the town fell to the army, on the 112th day of the battle, the pro-rebel activists in the town documented 677 airstrikes; 701 surface-to-surface missiles; 6,000 tank and artillery shells, mortars, and rockets; and 12 barrel bombs. They documented 335 rebel deaths and 50 civilian casualties. We don’t know how many soldiers were killed, but it’s usually at least double the number of rebel casualties. By the time the battle ended, the commander of the Air Defense Administration had been killed. He was the second ADA commander to be killed in one year.

We, as citizens, longed for the earlier reconciliation efforts held between the government and the rebels in Mleha. Many failed negotiations had taken place in the past two years. Once the negotiations completely collapsed, however, we had to take sides. I now had to live with the idea of supporting an army that was leveling my town. I lost relatives, friends, and my own home, yet that seemed to be a smaller cost than risking Damascus, where the people of Mleha now live.

It’s not easy to live between the details and the big picture. Sometimes it can be soul-wrenching to support the army, an institution that holds my country together but that also contains villains capable of unspeakable inhumanity. There are soldiers who torture your recently drafted brother. Sometimes drunk soldiers will abduct a minibus with your girlfriend in it, and direct the driver to a battle zone. One of them will sit next to her, with one hand holding an AK-47 and another between her inner thighs. You have to live with the story she tells you about how she was so afraid that she was sticking her face on the window, crying, trying to get away from him. You have to ignore these details in the big picture of an army that has lost twice as many soldiers as America lost in Vietnam, just to defend your country.

The biggest challenge of all is to be able to make any sense out of the concept of retaliation. It is one thing to bomb a ghost town, where just a few unlucky civilians remain; it’s a whole different thing to target the heart of an enemy stronghold just to deter them from crossing a line in the sand.

On August 15, Zahran Alloush, the head of the Islam Army, launched an offensive against strategic Harasta, which is very close to the M5 highway route linking Damascus with what’s left of Syria. The army reportedly retaliated by targeting the marketplace in Duma, Alloush’s stronghold, killing 110 people. It was a massacre in every sense of the word.

It wasn’t the use of “illegal” and “indiscriminate” barrel bombs, which tend to be the focus of reporters and diplomats even though barrel bombs don’t kill nearly as many as shells and bullets do. Rather than barrel bombs, reports indicate the regime deployed guided bombs against a location known to be crowded with civilians. If these reports are true, this would mean the attack was the worst kind of retaliation: deliberately targeting civilians just to place pressure on those who rule them.

We may never know for sure what happened in Duma, except that 110 people were killed within seconds. But if the army did deliberately target civilians, how should I react? Should I condemn the army now? And what does it mean to condemn the army or the establishment? Does it mean to take measures against them, at a time when there has been already too much pressure undermining the whole country?

I have always thought of Damascus as the Middle East’s most conservative yet most libertarian city. The question that puzzles me the most now is: How much of Damascus is worth saving?

On the one hand, some will find no problem justifying the Duma attack, or any other like it. We live in a world where “the leader of the free world,” after suffering the attacks of 9/11, reacts by signing the PATRIOT Act and invading two countries, one of which had nothing to do with 9/11.

The problem in Damascus isn’t only that it’s surrounded by radical Islamic rebels. The problem is that the frontline is inside the city, in the south, where we have the presence of the Islamic State, and in the east, where the Islam Army and its Eastern Ghouta allies operate. Not that I think these people are evil, but they certainly pose an enormous threat to Damascus’s diverse community. I don’t think any government, no matter how democratic or civil, would tolerate such a presence that close.

Yet in Damascus, I met the kind of people who tolerated the Islamists operating around us, even though their neighborhoods, just like mine, were targeted with rebel mortars. Ammar, an IT worker who helped me set up my Internet connection, detested the regime so much that he said he would prefer that the Duma rebels take over Damascus. Before he moved to Damascus for a job, he lived in Duma under the radical Islamists and didn’t seem to have any difficulties with them that he wouldn’t have had with the Syrian authorities. He was a conservative Sunni Muslim — there was nothing that they wanted him to do that he didn’t want to do himself.

As an atheist and a secularist, I find it unimaginable to live under Islamic rule. The Syrian semisecular state itself is already too religious to me. Half of my friends are Christians and half the people in my family are Shiites; I fear they will be automatically doomed once ruled by the Islam Army, Jabhat al-Nusra, or Ahrar al-Sham. It’s not only the Libya-style chaos that scares me, but also an alternative religious establishment similar to that in Iran and Saudi Arabia. Perhaps my big picture is nothing more than my own political agenda. Perhaps Ammar, coming from a religious majority, has a different big picture in mind, in which people like me are insignificant.

There are few things I know for certain now. As much as I try to balance what’s personal with what’s political, the cost is that I completely detach myself from the situation. I can’t understand how some foreign governments fail to be pragmatic when it comes to dealing with my country, as if it were personal to them. First they feel sorry for us, then they demonize us, and then they sanction us and call us terrorists — and eventually, our refugees become their biggest problem.
Abdo Roumani

Abdo Roumani studied English literature at Damascus University.

http://fee.org/freeman/what-war-and-ter ... rinciples/
Channel72
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Re: US and Gulf allies/Turkey created ISIS to fight Assad

Post by Channel72 »

The Romulan Republic wrote:Which is why all the journalists who covered the NSA spying are in jail. And why all the Republicans falsely harping constantly about Bengazi and Obama not being a citizen were shut down. And, going back a bit further, why the guys who broke the Watergate story were murdered by Richard Nixon.
Nixon likely may have attempted to murder journalist Jack Anderson.

Anyway, most journalists probably don't want to end up like Snowden, but they still have a career incentive to attempt to bring down powerful people. Regardless of whether we're talking about the US government, or any institution that commands incredible resources and wealth, attempting to smear the reputation of powerful people/organizations is always a dangerous business. Not every journalist is willing to risk their life bringing down a US president or major CEO, but there's still a lot of glory in doing so, and therefore a major incentive.

Most American journalists are not vehemently anti-American, simply because it's hard to actually get a career doing anything if you're constantly criticizing American institutions. Furthermore, it's generally considered something of a taboo to criticize the "troops", simply because most people actually know some of these "troops" who we're supposed to support for some reason - and they're generally not like, monsters or psychotic Arab-killers - they're just regular people who live next door (or beg for money on the subway). And so it's easy for the majority of Americans to develop an aversion to criticizing the military in any way that isn't completely abstract - i.e. we can criticize abstract "policies" that descend from some cloud in Washington, but let's stay away from criticizing the actual integrity and motives of individual troops - that's the sort of mindset that most Americans (including American journalists) operate with.
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