European refugee crisis thread

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Re: European refugee crisis thread

Post by jwl »

Thanas wrote:
jwl wrote:Resources for food, etc. are not the only problems that refugee camps in the middle east face. The other main one is lawlessness. This means a lot of rape and violence happens in the middle eastern camps, which to my knowledge does not happen in the European ones.
Your knowledge is lacking then, go read any of the guardian updates or videos. Heck, there was full on street fighting on Kos.
I've looked up violence in greek refugee sites, and it seems there is some degree of violence there. However, most of the reports are in context of the police breaking up the violence, which means it isn't really out of control. I couldn't find any reports of rape in european refugee camps from reliable sources, and most of the unrelibale sources talk about rape in Germany, not southern European countries.

But let's disregard this and say that conditions in Greece are the same as in the middle east. My other two points still apply. Furthermore, there is about ten times as many refugees in the middle east as in Greece. So if you were treating them equally, you would take ten times as many refugees from the middle east as from Greece.
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Re: European refugee crisis thread

Post by Thanas »

We have an obligation to help out other EU nations more than we have an obligation to help out the UN. And the problem is here, in our nations, not far away. That requires a direct and immediate answer. I don't see why you don't get it.
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Re: European refugee crisis thread

Post by jwl »

Thanas wrote:We have an obligation to help out other EU nations more than we have an obligation to help out the UN. And the problem is here, in our nations, not far away. That requires a direct and immediate answer. I don't see why you don't get it.
I don't think we really have an obligation to help out either other EU countries or the UN. If a country has a lot of unwanted immigrants, that's their fault for not implementing good enough border controls (if the immigrants are wanted, well, why do we need to take them away?). The reason I would suggest my country takes on more refugees is primarily for the refugees themselves, not the countries they are residing, but if I were to consider that, I would be more likely to consider lebonon, where something like a quarter of the country is refugees, than Italy or Hungary or whatever.
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Re: European refugee crisis thread

Post by Crazedwraith »

jwl wrote:
Thanas wrote:We have an obligation to help out other EU nations more than we have an obligation to help out the UN. And the problem is here, in our nations, not far away. That requires a direct and immediate answer. I don't see why you don't get it.
I don't think we really have an obligation to help out either other EU countries or the UN. If a country has a lot of unwanted immigrants, that's their fault for not implementing good enough border controls (if the immigrants are wanted, well, why do we need to take them away?). The reason I would suggest my country takes on more refugees is primarily for the refugees themselves, not the countries they are residing, but if I were to consider that, I would be more likely to consider lebonon, where something like a quarter of the country is refugees, than Italy or Hungary or whatever.

Except we do have an obligation to the EU and The UN, that's what being part of those groups is about. If we want the benefits of being part of these organisations you have to be willing to do things for them as well.
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Re: European refugee crisis thread

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Crazedwraith wrote:
jwl wrote:
Thanas wrote:We have an obligation to help out other EU nations more than we have an obligation to help out the UN. And the problem is here, in our nations, not far away. That requires a direct and immediate answer. I don't see why you don't get it.
I don't think we really have an obligation to help out either other EU countries or the UN. If a country has a lot of unwanted immigrants, that's their fault for not implementing good enough border controls (if the immigrants are wanted, well, why do we need to take them away?). The reason I would suggest my country takes on more refugees is primarily for the refugees themselves, not the countries they are residing, but if I were to consider that, I would be more likely to consider lebonon, where something like a quarter of the country is refugees, than Italy or Hungary or whatever.

Except we do have an obligation to the EU and The UN, that's what being part of those groups is about. If we want the benefits of being part of these organisations you have to be willing to do things for them as well.
The EU is an economic alliance that allows the free movement of citizens. The UN is a useful tooltool for international coorfination. Sure, there are rules that are there to allow these bodies to do thier jobs better. But is there any moral obligation towards these groups? No. They are tools, that is all.
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Re: European refugee crisis thread

Post by jwl »

And in the case of greece, I think they would find debt relief much more useful than taking their immigrants away.
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Re: European refugee crisis thread

Post by Crown »

Broomstick wrote:
Purple wrote:Isn't 120K a very small number?
In this context, yes.
Just to provide this context; it's about 1/3 of the amount of migrants/refugees that have arrived into Greece or about 1/4 of those through Greece and Italy so far.
Reuters wrote:Sharp increase in migrant arrivals on Greece's Lesbos island

More than 3,000 mainly Syrian and Afghan refugees, soaked and exhausted, reached the Greek island of Lesbos within hours on Wednesday, a sharp rise in the rate of arrivals via the dangerous sea crossing from Turkey.

They were the latest wave of at least 430,000 refugees and migrants, a record number, to have taken rickety boats across the Mediterranean to Europe this year, 309,000 via Greece, according to International Organization for Migration figures.

Around 50 rubber dinghies each carrying 60 to 70 people arrived in pouring rain in the space of five hours on one Lesbos beach, which was covered in life jackets and rubber tubes. Some refugees were suffering from hypothermia.

As they approached shore, a Syrian man lifted his wailing daughter, in an orange life jacket, above their overloaded dinghy. In another, packed with Afghan families, headscarved women smiled and young, beaming men flashed the victory sign.

Emotions ranged from relief to exhaustion.

"It was difficult, we were afraid," said 18-year-old Ruhin from Afghanistan, whose sister collapsed on the shore.

The number of boats was far greater than normal for such as short period of time; 40 boat arrivals would be considered average for a full day over the past few weeks, a Reuters photographer on the scene said.

Why the numbers rose so quickly on Wednesday was unclear, but the Mediterranean will be hit increasingly by storms as autumn progresses towards winter, making the crossing too dangerous for most refugees to attempt it.

Hundreds of thousands of refugees, primarily Syrians, Afghans, Iraqis and Africans fleeing war, repression and poverty, have crossed the narrow but precarious sea channel between Turkey and Greece's eastern Aegean islands this year, mainly in flimsy and overcrowded inflatable boats.

Almost all refugees and migrants quickly move on out of Greece and up through the Balkans towards wealthier countries in the EU's north and west, especially Germany and Sweden.

Over the weekend, 13 migrants, including six children, died in Turkish waters near Lesbos when a boat carrying 46 people en route to Greece collided with a dry cargo vessel and capsized.

The European Union approved a plan on Tuesday to share out 120,000 refugees, mainly from war-torn Syria, across its 28 states based on mandatory quotas, overriding vehement opposition from four ex-communist eastern nations.

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Re: European refugee crisis thread

Post by Thanas »

jwl wrote:I don't think we really have an obligation to help out either other EU countries or the UN.
Ah, pigfucking Britain rears it head again. Of course you do have an obligation to help members of the same organization in need, especially when you joined to create countries working closer together.
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Re: European refugee crisis thread

Post by Zixinus »

Of course Britain has an obligation to help other EU countries. The EU is more than just open borders and unified economic zones, it is about European countries having a platform to solve European problems. The UK is effected by the refugee crisis as it is one of the goal countries. This is a problem for the entirety of Europe, or at least most of it. Mass migrations have happened before. The EU and all of its members have an obligation to start organizing together and developing some unified solution, some way to handle and educate all these massive amounts of people coming in all over the place.

And it is not some hippy, humanitarian, bleeding-heart reason to do that. It's actually very selfish reason for the benefit of both the countries these people are in and Europe as a whole. Unless most countries start deporting or worse hundreds of thousands of people, these people are here and they are going to stay. Ignoring them will make them a bigger problem, creating poverty ghettos and a population that problematically integrates into society taking whatever jobs they can make. Educating them about the country and the language will give them a chance to find or even create legal jobs and legal jobs bring taxes. Taxes that will slowly pay the cost of educating them. Pretending they are not them won't and give the temptation to give them illegal jobs that don't pay them taxes and develop illegal economies that also don't pay taxes. This is not to mention what sort of ideas would a population in poverty will have. Afraid of Islam extremism? Poverty and negligence is a good way to allow that to fester up.

The only thing that will effectively stop the refugees (and others) coming will be winter.
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Re: European refugee crisis thread

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Thanas wrote:
jwl wrote:I don't think we really have an obligation to help out either other EU countries or the UN.
Ah, pigfucking Britain rears it head again. Of course you do have an obligation to help members of the same organization in need, especially when you joined to create countries working closer together.
Really? It was sold as an economic tool, and hasn't stopped being presented as an economic tool. As far as I am concerned, we only need to not break the rules, or at least not break the rules we can't get away with breaking.

I don't see why we should care significantly more about Greece than we do about Lebonon, but I'm more bothered about the refugees themselves than I am about either.

And even if I did care significantly more about Greece than we did about Lebonon, the situation is a lot worse in Lebonon than in Greece. They have over three times as many refugees with less than half the population. And Greece could have remedied the situation itself by, you know, putting in better border controls.
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Re: European refugee crisis thread

Post by LaCroix »

You know, I am starting to think the best way to solve this British refusal policy is to issue some EU nationality to every refugee, rightaway. This way, Britain can't refuse them entry, anymore...
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Re: European refugee crisis thread

Post by Purple »

LaCroix wrote:You know, I am starting to think the best way to solve this British refusal policy is to issue some EU nationality to every refugee, rightaway. This way, Britain can't refuse them entry, anymore...
And than they all promptly rush into Germany...
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Re: European refugee crisis thread

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Zixinus wrote:Of course Britain has an obligation to help other EU countries. The EU is more than just open borders and unified economic zones, it is about European countries having a platform to solve European problems. The UK is effected by the refugee crisis as it is one of the goal countries. This is a problem for the entirety of Europe, or at least most of it. Mass migrations have happened before. The EU and all of its members have an obligation to start organizing together and developing some unified solution, some way to handle and educate all these massive amounts of people coming in all over the place.

And it is not some hippy, humanitarian, bleeding-heart reason to do that. It's actually very selfish reason for the benefit of both the countries these people are in and Europe as a whole. Unless most countries start deporting or worse hundreds of thousands of people, these people are here and they are going to stay. Ignoring them will make them a bigger problem, creating poverty ghettos and a population that problematically integrates into society taking whatever jobs they can make. Educating them about the country and the language will give them a chance to find or even create legal jobs and legal jobs bring taxes. Taxes that will slowly pay the cost of educating them. Pretending they are not them won't and give the temptation to give them illegal jobs that don't pay them taxes and develop illegal economies that also don't pay taxes. This is not to mention what sort of ideas would a population in poverty will have. Afraid of Islam extremism? Poverty and negligence is a good way to allow that to fester up.

The only thing that will effectively stop the refugees (and others) coming will be winter.
Is the EU going to chuck us out if we don't do any anything? No? Well I don't care then.

I don't think these refugees in Europe are likely to be a serious problem for the UK if we don't take any on. The border controls at both sides of the channel are working. The top news stories about illegal Syrian immigrants to Britain are about eleven people. I don't find eleven immigrants remotely threatening, regardless of how well integrated they are. And yes, the French side of the channel is part of what makes it so successful. But if worst comes to worst, we can pay French to keep up their security, and send some of our own border control agents over the channel.

I know something that will stop the refugees: if they are more likely to get British asylum staying in the middle east. All the more reason to take immigrants from the middle east, not from europe.
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Re: European refugee crisis thread

Post by Starglider »

If only we could get Stas to lecture them all on how utterly evil and awful the UK is, then none of them would want to come to the UK in the first place. In fact, according to the SDN N&P consensus, the UK is such a horrible, capitalist place that I'm sure it's some kind of human rights violation to send refugees here. They'd have to be convicted of some awful crime to even consider it and even then it's probably cruel and unusual punnishment.

Really, since it is axiomatic and indisputable that Germany is the best country in every possible way, with Sweden a distant second, sending them all to Germany is the most humanitarian outcome possible. And although the infinitely superior German economy obviously can afford any burden, it is true that millions of refugess could possibly result in a dip in BMW and/or Mercedes sales figures, so a compensatory tribute payment from all the other EU countries to Germany is clearly the way forward.
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Re: European refugee crisis thread

Post by Zaune »

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Re: European refugee crisis thread

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jwl wrote:And even if I did care significantly more about Greece than we did about Lebonon, the situation is a lot worse in Lebonon than in Greece. They have over three times as many refugees with less than half the population. And Greece could have remedied the situation itself by, you know, putting in better border controls.
Please do tell us what sort of "border controls" will be effective against barely-seaworthy rubber dinghies washing up on the shores of Lesbos? Do you propose just letting them float offshore until they go elsewhere or drown?
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Re: European refugee crisis thread

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Starglider wrote:If only we could get Stas to lecture them all on how utterly evil and awful the UK is, then none of them would want to come to the UK in the first place. In fact, according to the SDN N&P consensus, the UK is such a horrible, capitalist place that I'm sure it's some kind of human rights violation to send refugees here. They'd have to be convicted of some awful crime to even consider it and even then it's probably cruel and unusual punnishment.

Really, since it is axiomatic and indisputable that Germany is the best country in every possible way, with Sweden a distant second, sending them all to Germany is the most humanitarian outcome possible. And although the infinitely superior German economy obviously can afford any burden, it is true that millions of refugess could possibly result in a dip in BMW and/or Mercedes sales figures, so a compensatory tribute payment from all the other EU countries to Germany is clearly the way forward.
Well, yeah. Pity UK is the only place in the world where you can take away jobs from hard working middle-class Englishmen, so we foreigners have to go there.
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Re: European refugee crisis thread

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Starglider wrote:If only we could get Stas to lecture them all on how utterly evil and awful the UK is, then none of them would want to come to the UK in the first place. In fact, according to the SDN N&P consensus, the UK is such a horrible, capitalist place that I'm sure it's some kind of human rights violation to send refugees here.
I am sure people think Mr. Pigfucker is right (Britain is good!) and I am wrong, so you certainly overestimate my influence. Sorry, but I cannot save you from the refugees. :P
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Re: European refugee crisis thread

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Broomstick wrote:
jwl wrote:And even if I did care significantly more about Greece than we did about Lebonon, the situation is a lot worse in Lebonon than in Greece. They have over three times as many refugees with less than half the population. And Greece could have remedied the situation itself by, you know, putting in better border controls.
Please do tell us what sort of "border controls" will be effective against barely-seaworthy rubber dinghies washing up on the shores of Lesbos? Do you propose just letting them float offshore until they go elsewhere or drown?
Go around in ships, scoop up the immigrants, drop them off back in whatever middle eastern refugee camp they first went to. Pay the country they are setting off from to allow their own border guards so they can't set off in the first place. Or think of something else. It's their problem, not ours.
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Re: European refugee crisis thread

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Who is going to pay for those ships to protect those borders? (Hmm... maybe it IS your problem if you wind up paying for it?)

How do you determine where those people came from?

Pay they country they set off from to stop others from doing that? (Hmm... maybe it IS your problem if you wind up paying for it?)

Yes, it IS your problem, one way or another.
Last edited by Broomstick on 2015-09-24 08:29am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: European refugee crisis thread

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Starglider wrote:If only we could get Stas to lecture them all on how utterly evil and awful the UK is, then none of them would want to come to the UK in the first place. In fact, according to the SDN N&P consensus, the UK is such a horrible, capitalist place that I'm sure it's some kind of human rights violation to send refugees here. They'd have to be convicted of some awful crime to even consider it and even then it's probably cruel and unusual punnishment.
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Re: European refugee crisis thread

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Broomstick wrote:Who is going to pay for those ships to protect those borders? (Hmm... maybe it IS your problem if you wind up paying for it?)

How do you determine where those people came from?

Pay they country they set off from to stop others from doing that? (Hmm... maybe it IS your problem if you wind up paying for it?)

Yes, it IS your problem, one way or another.
They do. It's their borders, why should anyone else have to pay for it?
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Re: European refugee crisis thread

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If they don't have the money, how the hell will they pay for it? You expect bankrupt Greece to fund that sort of initiative?

Don't bother replying - your "fuck you, hurray for me" attitude is quite apparent. You have no clue that allowing your neighbors to fall into ruin threatens your own long-term interests.
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Re: European refugee crisis thread

Post by Purple »

jwl wrote:They do. It's their borders, why should anyone else have to pay for it?
And why should they want to pay for it? Why should a random middle eastern country care if their poor and dejected are fleeing to your country? It's not their problem it's yours! Same goes for Greece or Turkey or whom ever they transit through. As long as they have a way of leveraging you into accepting them it's not their problem. See how that goes?
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Re: European refugee crisis thread

Post by Zaune »

Personally, I think the fact of the matter is that we (and by 'we' I mean every country that's trying to pretend this is Germany's problem not Europe's) can either accept a significant number of refugees and invest significant sums of money in making sure they integrate with the minimum of fuss, or we can take our seige mentality to its ultimate logical conclusion and start straight-up machine-gunning the refugee boats in the water. There's no middle ground here; any other strategy that's been proposed thus far amounts to papering over the cracks and hoping the problem will go away by itself.

I hope I don't have to tell you that I infinitely prefer Option #1. I suspect very few people would actually support Option #2, and even fewer would have the balls to say so in public. But we need to face up to the fact that there is no Option #3.
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