jwl wrote:Go around in ships, scoop up the immigrants, drop them off back in whatever middle eastern refugee camp they first went to.
Are you fucking incapable of reading a map or just ignorant about EU borders? HINT: The border between Greece and Turkey is less than 14 miles of water. How are you going to stop rubber dinghys? Permanently detail a warship there? Great, that covers one island. What about the other hundred or so?
Pay the country they are setting off from to allow their own border guards so they can't set off in the first place.
Turkey is already dealing with a refugee crisis much higher than that of Europe. There is no amount of money you could give them that would stop the exodus, nor is it possible.
Or think of something else.
I would love to hear the other options you think exist.
It's their problem, not ours.
"Fuck you, I got mine".
Whoever says "education does not matter" can try ignorance
------------
A decision must be made in the life of every nation at the very moment when the grasp of the enemy is at its throat. Then, it seems that the only way to survive is to use the means of the enemy, to rest survival upon what is expedient, to look the other way. Well, the answer to that is 'survival as what'? A country isn't a rock. It's not an extension of one's self. It's what it stands for. It's what it stands for when standing for something is the most difficult! - Chief Judge Haywood
------------ My LPs
By that logic Germany is perfectly justified to strong-arm everybody around us into submission all the time. Getting strong-armed is not our problem. It´s your problem so fuck you.
Broomstick wrote:If they don't have the money, how the hell will they pay for it? You expect bankrupt Greece to fund that sort of initiative?
Don't bother replying - your "fuck you, hurray for me" attitude is quite apparent. You have no clue that allowing your neighbors to fall into ruin threatens your own long-term interests.
Well, if greece doesn't want immigrants, it should invest in border controls. Yes, greece is geographically more susceptible to immigrants. The UK is geographically more susceptible to coastal erosion and flooding. That's why we build flood defences and coastal protection, and I don't expect greece to pay for it.
Note that if greece is actually willing to pay for all our flood defences I would be perfectly happy for us to send some boats to help with their border controls in return.
You're deluding yourself if you think refugees won't try landing on UK beaches. Hell the US has had problems with people from China washing up in California (unfortunately, sometimes literally), compared to that crossing the southern border of Europe or even North Africa to the UK is much less daunting even if it is insanely dangerous.
If Greece/Italy/Spain/etc. DID put in truly effective border patrols some people would try a sea route to the UK, among other places. All that southern Europe putting up walls will do is deflect this problem to somewhere else... like your shores.
In fact, you're depending on someone else NOT having effective borders, AND paying to take care of these refugees, so you don't have to bother!
A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory.Leonard Nimoy.
Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job. And then I get paid.- Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity, which sums up my feelings regarding the lawsuit discussed here.
If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. - John F. Kennedy
Note: if greece actually does go ahead and pay for all our flood defences I would be perfectly happy for us to send some boats to help with their immigration controls in return.
Countries send desaster relief to other countries all the time. Nothing unusual. Actually there´s a EU fund which countries can and do get money from for desaster relief.
This board can be a deeply disappointing place to visit sometimes.
Yeah, I've always taken the subtext of the Birther movement to be, "The rules don't count here! This is different! HE'S BLACK! BLACK, I SAY! ARE YOU ALL BLIND!?
- Raw Shark
Destiny and fate are for those too weak to forge their own futures. Where we are 'supposed' to be is irrelevent.
jwl wrote:They do. It's their borders, why should anyone else have to pay for it?
And why should they want to pay for it? Why should a random middle eastern country care if their poor and dejected are fleeing to your country? It's not their problem it's yours! Same goes for Greece or Turkey or whom ever they transit through. As long as they have a way of leveraging you into accepting them it's not their problem. See how that goes?
Yes, it's not the middle east's problem, it's Greece's. I said greece should pay for it, not the middle east.
jwl wrote:They do. It's their borders, why should anyone else have to pay for it?
And why should they want to pay for it? Why should a random middle eastern country care if their poor and dejected are fleeing to your country? It's not their problem it's yours! Same goes for Greece or Turkey or whom ever they transit through. As long as they have a way of leveraging you into accepting them it's not their problem. See how that goes?
Yes, it's not the middle east's problem, it's Greece's. I said greece should pay for it, not the middle east.
Same thing. By your logic Greece should not give a dam and just export the problem because they can.
It has become clear to me in the previous days that any attempts at reconciliation and explanation with the community here has failed. I have tried my best. I really have. I pored my heart out trying. But it was all for nothing.
You win. There, I have said it.
Now there is only one thing left to do. Let us see if I can sum up the strength needed to end things once and for all.
jwl wrote:Go around in ships, scoop up the immigrants, drop them off back in whatever middle eastern refugee camp they first went to.
Are you fucking incapable of reading a map or just ignorant about EU borders? HINT: The border between Greece and Turkey is less than 14 miles of water. How are you going to stop rubber dinghys? Permanently detail a warship there? Great, that covers one island. What about the other hundred or so?
Pay the country they are setting off from to allow their own border guards so they can't set off in the first place.
Turkey is already dealing with a refugee crisis much higher than that of Europe. There is no amount of money you could give them that would stop the exodus, nor is it possible.
Or think of something else.
I would love to hear the other options you think exist.
It's their problem, not ours.
"Fuck you, I got mine".
Why would you need any warships? You're talking about people on rubber dinghys, not an invading army. Small boats with 2-3 police or border control officers would be enough. Yes, they'd need a lot of them, but to repeat the flooding analogy, flood defences cost an awful lot as well.
Yes, I've been saying that things are worse in Turkey for the last few pages, that's why we nees to take refugees from the middle east instead of Europe. But what I am proposing is not to throw money at Turkey and hope the problem goes away, I proposing greece pays Turkey for the privilege of sending their own border control people over to stop the boats setting off themselves.
My suggestion is that greece uses their own experts to think of their own solutions, but another idea would be to upgrade the boats the migrants are on so they won't drown when they meet them, (maybe some larger stabilising bit to go around the boat or something?), then send them off to go somewhere else.
salm wrote:By that logic Germany is perfectly justified to strong-arm everybody around us into submission all the time. Getting strong-armed is not our problem. It´s your problem so fuck you.
There's a difference between actively strong-arming a country and passively not doing anything to help a country. But regardless, Germany is trying that now and so far they are having problems. Meanwhile our approach of not doing anything seems to be working out fine for our purposes.
jwl wrote:My suggestion is that greece uses their own experts to think of their own solutions, but another idea would be to upgrade the boats the migrants are on so they won't drown when they meet them, (maybe some larger stabilising bit to go around the boat or something?), then send them off to go somewhere else.
That's what I suggested. Have the Greeks pick them up and ship them to england. Than it'll be your problem not theirs.
It has become clear to me in the previous days that any attempts at reconciliation and explanation with the community here has failed. I have tried my best. I really have. I pored my heart out trying. But it was all for nothing.
You win. There, I have said it.
Now there is only one thing left to do. Let us see if I can sum up the strength needed to end things once and for all.
Broomstick wrote:You're deluding yourself if you think refugees won't try landing on UK beaches. Hell the US has had problems with people from China washing up in California (unfortunately, sometimes literally), compared to that crossing the southern border of Europe or even North Africa to the UK is much less daunting even if it is insanely dangerous.
If Greece/Italy/Spain/etc. DID put in truly effective border patrols some people would try a sea route to the UK, among other places. All that southern Europe putting up walls will do is deflect this problem to somewhere else... like your shores.
In fact, you're depending on someone else NOT having effective borders, AND paying to take care of these refugees, so you don't have to bother!
There are already people trying. There are 5000 migrants in Calais trying. So far they haven't been terribly successful, and I don't anticipate them being so in the future.
Did you miss the part where I said we have had people come from China in boats to land illegally in North America? If you have people managing to cross the Pacific Ocean to immigrate for just economic reasons you sure as hell WILL have someone attempt to cross the English Channel. The only reason they haven't yet is that they're not totally insane and would prefer a much safer ticket through the Chunnel to a risky sea voyage. Make it impossible to get that train ticket, though, and you'll have those people who are fleeing what they think is imminent death back home taking the risky route. Inevitably, some will make it. Then it will be your problem... and because you were such dickheads you'll get neither sympathy nor help from anyone else.
A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory.Leonard Nimoy.
Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job. And then I get paid.- Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity, which sums up my feelings regarding the lawsuit discussed here.
If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. - John F. Kennedy
salm wrote:Countries send desaster relief to other countries all the time. Nothing unusual. Actually there´s a EU fund which countries can and do get money from for desaster relief.
Maybe, but they are not obliged to. I haven't heard much of greece in particular donating large amounts to flooding appeals in Britain. And there haven't been as much flooding in Britain precisely because we invest in flood defences. For example, the Thames Barrier has been raised 175 times since it was built. Without it doing so on these occasions, part of London could have been flooded.
When it comes to EU funds, EU funds are already being used to try and help southern European countries out. I don't have a problem with this, as long as EU membership contributions don't go substantially up.
jwl wrote:My suggestion is that greece uses their own experts to think of their own solutions, but another idea would be to upgrade the boats the migrants are on so they won't drown when they meet them, (maybe some larger stabilising bit to go around the boat or something?), then send them off to go somewhere else.
That's what I suggested. Have the Greeks pick them up and ship them to england. Than it'll be your problem not theirs.
And we will do exactly the same, send them back or send them on. It would be a bit of a convoluted waste of money for greece to actively try to send them to England (instead of the short trip back to turkey or an upgraded boat with enough petrol to reach Italy), but if they did so, our border control could handle it, and they probably wouldn't actually land in Britain.
jwl wrote:My suggestion is that greece uses their own experts to think of their own solutions, but another idea would be to upgrade the boats the migrants are on so they won't drown when they meet them, (maybe some larger stabilising bit to go around the boat or something?), then send them off to go somewhere else.
That's what I suggested. Have the Greeks pick them up and ship them to england. Than it'll be your problem not theirs.
And we will do exactly the same, send them back or send them on. It would be a bit of a convoluted waste of money for greece to actively try to send them to England (instead of the short trip back to turkey or an upgraded boat with enough petrol to reach Italy), but if they did so, our border control could handle it, and they probably wouldn't actually land in Britain.
But they'd make you waste your money too. That is the logical outcome of the kind of attitude you are championing.
It has become clear to me in the previous days that any attempts at reconciliation and explanation with the community here has failed. I have tried my best. I really have. I pored my heart out trying. But it was all for nothing.
You win. There, I have said it.
Now there is only one thing left to do. Let us see if I can sum up the strength needed to end things once and for all.
Broomstick wrote:Did you miss the part where I said we have had people come from China in boats to land illegally in North America? If you have people managing to cross the Pacific Ocean to immigrate for just economic reasons you sure as hell WILL have someone attempt to cross the English Channel. The only reason they haven't yet is that they're not totally insane and would prefer a much safer ticket through the Chunnel to a risky sea voyage. Make it impossible to get that train ticket, though, and you'll have those people who are fleeing what they think is imminent death back home taking the risky route. Inevitably, some will make it. Then it will be your problem... and because you were such dickheads you'll get neither sympathy nor help from anyone else.
It is already impossible for them to get to the UK via the tunnel. It is also impossible for them to get to the UK via boat. Their best bet to get to the UK is to go back to Turkey to meet their family, claim and be granted asylum from there, then fly over. Unfortunately, the people camping in Calais haven't realised this yet.
jwl wrote:
And we will do exactly the same, send them back or send them on. It would be a bit of a convoluted waste of money for greece to actively try to send them to England (instead of the short trip back to turkey or an upgraded boat with enough petrol to reach Italy), but if they did so, our border control could handle it, and they probably wouldn't actually land in Britain.
But they'd make you waste your money too. That is the logical outcome of the kind of attitude you are championing.
If they decide to purposefully direct them towards England, yeah. I don't see why they would do that, though, as opposed to sending them back to Turkey or directing them for other nearby countries to handle (or indeed just allowing the refugees in. I'm not opposed to them doing this, I just don't see why they should look to us to take them off their hands if they decide to do so).
jwl wrote:If they decide to purposefully direct them towards England, yeah. I don't see why they would do that, though, as opposed to sending them back to Turkey or directing them for other nearby countries to handle (or indeed just allowing the refugees in. I'm not opposed to them doing this, I just don't see why they should look to us to take them off their hands if they decide to do so).
Because that's a solution that the migrants them self will gladly accept as opposed to resisting? Remember, in this scenario the Greeks are looking for a minimum cost, risk and effort final solution to the migrant issue.
It has become clear to me in the previous days that any attempts at reconciliation and explanation with the community here has failed. I have tried my best. I really have. I pored my heart out trying. But it was all for nothing.
You win. There, I have said it.
Now there is only one thing left to do. Let us see if I can sum up the strength needed to end things once and for all.
jwl wrote:If they decide to purposefully direct them towards England, yeah. I don't see why they would do that, though, as opposed to sending them back to Turkey or directing them for other nearby countries to handle (or indeed just allowing the refugees in. I'm not opposed to them doing this, I just don't see why they should look to us to take them off their hands if they decide to do so).
Because that's a solution that the migrants them self will gladly accept as opposed to resisting? Remember, in this scenario the Greeks are looking for a minimum cost, risk and effort final solution to the migrant issue.
What do you mean by resist? If a proper boat with experienced and equipped police/border control officers meets a rubber dinghy with some random people on it, the random people don't have much choice but to do what the police say. If you mean that they'll try again if they get sent back to Turkey, well, maybe they will, although getting their dinghy confiscated might make it more difficult. After enough unsuccessful attempts, however, many will give up or try somewhere else.
There is no final solution to the migrant issue. If they had a better military that might be able to wade into Syria and take out the problem at its source, but their military is worse than Syria's, so they can't. They have two options: increase border controls or allow in more immigrants. Both are going to have to keep running until the Syria crisis goes away. Maybe option two might be more cost risk, and effort free for them. But I don't think we are obliged to take refugees off their hands just because that is the option they choose.
I mean the thousands of migrants already in the nations right now as well as all the people you can't catch because you can't police the seas 24 hours a day in all weather without blowing your budget. Not that you need to anyway because if you offer to ship them to england they'll come willingly. So the cheep and cheerful solution is to forget trying to catch them at all! Why bother intercepting them at sea when you can just open up an office on the beach and have them register for a free ride to not-my-problem-now-yours-england?
It has become clear to me in the previous days that any attempts at reconciliation and explanation with the community here has failed. I have tried my best. I really have. I pored my heart out trying. But it was all for nothing.
You win. There, I have said it.
Now there is only one thing left to do. Let us see if I can sum up the strength needed to end things once and for all.
jwl wrote:It is also impossible for them to get to the UK via boat.
How is it impossible for people to get to the UK by boat? Are there anti-refugee cooties in the water? Any other completely fucking stupid comments you'd care to make?
Yes, people certainly can take a boat to the UK. How fucking fucking stupid do you have to be to say they can't? People have been doing just that for thousands of years.
Admittedly, something better than a rubber boat is advisable, but those are also obtainable.
The English Channel is around 35 kilometers at its narrowest point. The distance from Cuba to Florida is 180 km. We have people attempt that crossing all the damn time. One group even floated a goddamned pickup truck across that distance as an improvised boat. Quite a few have even been successful at doing so.
So please, DO explain why it is "impossible" for people to make that sea crossing in a boat. When they've been doing it for millennia.
A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory.Leonard Nimoy.
Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job. And then I get paid.- Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity, which sums up my feelings regarding the lawsuit discussed here.
If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. - John F. Kennedy
Broomstick wrote:
How is it impossible for people to get to the UK by boat? Are there anti-refugee cooties in the water? Any other completely fucking stupid comments you'd care to make?
In fairness, it doesn't make sense to go to the UK when you can go to the rest of Europe easier. Why would someone in France leave for the UK?
Though as for crossing, you are obviously right. The hosts of Top Gear crossed the channel in a converted Toyota pickup truck.
