Doctor Who S09E1 - The Magician's Apprentice (spoilers)

[madd0ct0r]

So... the magician is obviously the Doctor. But who's the apprentice? Clara? Missy? Or... Davros? After all, its implied that he did learn from the Doctor in a sense- he learned of betrayal and fear. And yet, because of time travel, its circular- the Doctor did what he did because of his experiences with Davros and his creations. So is the Doctor, metaphorically, also Davros's apprentice? A rather depressing thought.

I'm referring to the links to the sorcerers apprentice, that wonderful bit of music where a student unwittingly unleashes chaos in revelling in his power. Davros of course

[The Romulan Republic]

Though that does raise an interesting issue.
The Doctors Type 40 is an antique of Time Lord technology. It's horribly obsolete is every way imaginable.
We can assume that every TARDIS built from the Type 40 days has HADS, or the equivalent thereof, installed and operating.
We know that TARDIS' see into their own timelines and know what will happen to themselves, quite possibly the basis of the HADS system itself.

So how did any TARDIS' get destroyed in the Time War? You'd think a modern TARDIS would be able to simply look forward 10 seconds, realise that Dalek Attack Saucers will materialise at X co-ordinates and fire TARDIS destroying missiles ... and move elsewhere.
And while the Daleks could have tech that distorts or even blinds TARDIS' abilities to scan their own timelines, that should be a massive sign pointing "don't go here in spacetime"

Just speculation, but could it be that the Time War did so much damage to the timeline that it impaired TARDISs' ability to see it clearly?

[Bedlam]

Though that does raise an interesting issue.
The Doctors Type 40 is an antique of Time Lord technology. It's horribly obsolete is every way imaginable.
We can assume that every TARDIS built from the Type 40 days has HADS, or the equivalent thereof, installed and operating.
We know that TARDIS' see into their own timelines and know what will happen to themselves, quite possibly the basis of the HADS system itself.

So how did any TARDIS' get destroyed in the Time War? You'd think a modern TARDIS would be able to simply look forward 10 seconds, realise that Dalek Attack Saucers will materialise at X co-ordinates and fire TARDIS destroying missiles ... and move elsewhere.
And while the Daleks could have tech that distorts or even blinds TARDIS' abilities to scan their own timelines, that should be a massive sign pointing "don't go here in spacetime"

Given it seemed in the day of the Doctor that the Daleks were winning the time war we have to assume that they have some way of dealing with it, weapons that can't be detected in the future by TARDIS's would be a possibility. An interesting idea might be a way to spoof their appearance in time so wherever the TARDIS looks it sees itself getting destroyed.

[The Romulan Republic]

Well, seeing yourself losing in all possible futures would certainly have an impressive effect on moral.

[Parallax]

Well, seeing yourself losing in all possible futures would certainly have an impressive effect on moral.

Which makes me wonder - can TARDIS' commit suicide? And how would they do it?

We have seen, especially in the EU stuff, TARDIS' die before. If their bonded Time Lord dies, they tend to just float off somewhere (sometimes to a spot in the Vortex, sometimes random places in the Universe) and just sit and rot until they fade away. But could you drive a TARDIS' to actively try to destroy itself? Would emotional warfare against a TARDIS be a valid option?

[The Romulan Republic]

One thing that strikes me about Day of the Doctor is that in the Time Lords' last stand of the Time War, not one TARDIS was evident except for the Doctor's. The fleet must have suffered appalling casualties prior to that point.

Edit: As to a TARDIS killing itself, I don't know if they could. I do recall some reference to a self-destruct system, but presuming a TARDIS has such a thing, I don't know if they could access it without the pilot's authorization. Which raises another issue- TARDISs are intelligent beings but are used as tools/vehicles by Time Lords. Isn't that... um... slavery? Or are the TARDISs getting some sort of compensation out of it (I know the Doctor's seems to be okay with their relationship)?

Of course, a TARDIS could just materialize itself into a lethal situation if it wished to (the Doctor's has shown some ability to control its flight, as I recall). Unless there's a fail-safe preventing that.

[Khaat]

We also saw (many!) TARDISs dead in "The Doctor's Wife". The planet that ate them lured their Timelords in with fake distress calls. It's also possible that the Type 40 was "made obsolete" because it was so opinionated. Perhaps later models followed orders better, and/or earlier models weren't as concerned about their own timeline. Maybe Sexy is just as crazy as The Doctor; she was sitting around a museum forever before he stole her!

As to other TARDISs in "Day of the Doctor", it could be that they were creating the "sky trenches" protecting Gallifrey from the Dalek weapons-fire, and couldn't do any more to help. Or maybe they were forward and backwards in time trying to minimize the Dalek fleet size, it was a Time War.

[Parallax]

One theory/hypothesis/wild stab in the dark I've heard on that one is that the Daleks created instability in the Vortex to greatly inhibit TARDIS operations for that big push.
And we have seen that certain conditions can block TARDIS' before.

So, as the guess goes, any TARDIS' that were on Gallifrey at the time would be limited to relative operations only - probably Sky Trench duty. While any TARDIS' that were arriving (such as the Doctors) would arrive after said instability affected TARDIS systems and do what we saw.

[The Romulan Republic]

We also saw (many!) TARDISs dead in "The Doctor's Wife". The planet that ate them lured their Timelords in with fake distress calls. It's also possible that the Type 40 was "made obsolete" because it was so opinionated. Perhaps later models followed orders better, and/or earlier models weren't as concerned about their own timeline.

Which would basically be the Time Lords engineering a slave race to be more obedient unless they eliminated the sentience entirely, which doesn't sound like making TARDISs that are more advanced.

I have a hard time seeing the Doctor of all people never commenting on that if its the case. I mean, its not like he's entirely blind to his own peoples' failings.

Maybe Sexy is just as crazy as The Doctor; she was sitting around a museum forever before he stole her!

Given that, as I recall, she claimed that she wanted to travel with the Doctor (even claiming that she stole the Doctor), I doubt she was their by choice.

As to other TARDISs in "Day of the Doctor", it could be that they were creating the "sky trenches" protecting Gallifrey from the Dalek weapons-fire, and couldn't do any more to help. Or maybe they were forward and backwards in time trying to minimize the Dalek fleet size, it was a Time War.

Possible.

I really wish we had some idea what the sky trenches were and how they worked.

All this makes me think that I'd really love to read a story written from the perspective of a TARDIS, but I'm not sure a human being could write convincingly from a TARDIS's perspective. I guess I'll have to be satisfied with "The Doctor's Wife".

[Parallax]

I like the idea that the minds of TARDIS' are beyond human perception (at least, for the most part). They'd have to be, just to do their routine tasks - regulating dimensions that border on infinite, continiously scanning timelines, coping with an effectly impossible power source, etc. In a way, they are insanely advanced AIs, in charge of systems that are infinitely complex - yet they also seem to be more than AIs, possessing the equivalent of souls (which can be sucked out and transplanted under weird circumstances).

Obviously TARDIS' are engineered by the Time Lords but, as The Doctors Wife indicates, perhaps the relationship between the two isn't equal. Perhaps the TARDIS' are there because they want to be. Sexy did claim she stole the Doctor and that she takes him where he needs (not wants) to be and we have no reason to doubt her/its word. She/It wanted to see the Universe and so stole a Time Lord.

It could well be most TARDIS' are like the Time Lords themselves, content with sitting on Gallifrey and merely scanning the Universe and the Vortex instead of experiencing them first hand.

As for who is in control of a TARDIS ... that does seem to vary from story to story. The Doctor himself has said on a few occasions that he's usually happy to just let the TARDIS fly itself. Sometimes he's actually overriden what the TARDIS has wanted to do. As far back as Edge of Destruction, one stuck button clearly overrode the safety of the TARDIS and the people onboard. Sometimes the TARDIS has made controls disappear and has electrified the control console to stop the Doctor performing commands the TARDIS hasn't wanted him to do (usually for his own safety).

[SpottedKitty]

Maybe Sexy is just as crazy as The Doctor; she was sitting around a museum forever before he stole her!

Given that, as I recall, she claimed that she wanted to travel with the Doctor (even claiming that she stole the Doctor), I doubt she was their by choice.

I dunno, I have a sneaking suspicion every statement she made in that episode was the complete and unvarnished truth...

... from the perspective of a TARDIS. Given that this includes an understandable awkwardness in translating time-dependent tenses into other sentient beings' languages, though, that probably leaves quite a bit of wiggle room in meaning.

[Parallax]

Though it should be pointed out that Sexy wasn't in a museum. She was parked in the equivalent garage workshop, about to be decommisioned.
Which is a pretty sucky fate for a living entity, when you think about it.

[The Romulan Republic]

Yeah.

A lot of aspects of the TARDIS's existence are really uncomfortable and even outright horrifying. Its just usually glossed over because who would think she's actually an intelligent being unless attention is drawn to it?

Damn Time Lords.

Although its pretty clear that she has at least some control over her existence. Perhaps a great deal of control. She can see the future and she apparently has ability to control her own flight, as I recall. I think she could quite easily manipulate the Doctor's whole existence (indeed she basically admits to doing this in "The Doctor's Wife" by saying she always took him where he needed to go or something like that), or even get him killed if she were so inclined.

One of the wonderful things about "The Doctor's Wife" (though it is also annoying) is that once you've seen that episode, you may have to reevaluate the entire show because its just been very forcefully pointed out to you that the Doctor's vehicle is actually a person who is quote possibly smarter and more powerful than he is.

[Parallax]

The thing about that particular story is how much control Sexy has of TARDIS systems ... and how much she doesn't.
When the bad guy (name? I forget it) takes control of the empty TARDIS, he does horrifying and powerful things with the TARDIS interior. He screwed with the minds of Amy and Rory via the telepathic circuits and went about jettisoning portions of the ship.
Yet, even then, he was limited by basic safety protocols - the day was saved when he couldn't jettison the people inside or the central control room.

I still can't decide if TARDIS' are super advanced AIs or actual living beings. But then, if an AI is so advanced - is there actually any difference?


But imagine this for a moment: I'm forced to wonder what the personalities of other TARDIS' might be like. Imagine with the Master's TARDIS yearns after. Imagine the conversations that would happens between TARDIS' when they happen to meet. When the Doctor materialised his TARDIS inside the Masters (or was it the other way around?) in an infinitely regressive loop ... how would the respective TARDIS' view that? Would it be an intimate encounter? Would they actually care (beyond the possibility of a Time Ram occurring, that is). Do TARDIS' communicate the merits and shortcomings of their respective bonded pilots to each other, like Time Lords talk about their ships?
Do new models look down on older models?
Does Sexy care/notice that she's the last Type 40 left in existence?
The last TARDIS? As the Doctor searches for Gallifrey, is she/it looking for other TARDIS'?
How did she/it really feel in The Doctors Wife when forced to cannibalise the corpses of her species to jury-rig a basic capsule?

[Khaat]

Though it should be pointed out that Sexy wasn't in a museum. She was parked in the equivalent garage workshop, about to be decommisioned.
Which is a pretty sucky fate for a living entity, when you think about it.

"The Doctor's TARDIS was for most of the series' history said to have been stolen from the Time Lords' home planet, Gallifrey, where it was old, decommissioned and derelict." (From the wiki)

The particulars are of little consequence (garage or museum), while the Time Lord position towards their creations is important. I suppose there is much room to explore by future writers.

In a fantasy setting I was writing, the dragon-slaying weapons were actually dragons made intelligent weapons to combat their "opposite numbers."

Consider: perhaps [wild unfounded speculation]TARDIS are actually Time Lord intelligences in time pod shells.
(As long as I'm here, the Doctor protects Earth because human eventually -after exposure to the Time Vortex- become the Timelords.)[/wild unfounded speculation]

[Parallax]

Nah, we know what happens to humanity in the Who-verse. They go through a series of forms, including ani-men, transhumans, etc ... Earth goes boom ... no 'real' humans left. Then what is left of humanity is the last life remaining at the end of the universe. They build a ship in a desperate bid to escape the heat death of existence (yeah, I know it makes no sense) and end up as faces in flying pods.

Meanwhile, the Time Lords actually have a rule about going that far into the future. That the TARDIS ignores as it tries to fling Captain Jack off (really, that guy will try to hump anything).

[SpottedKitty]

Meanwhile, the Time Lords actually have a rule about going that far into the future. That the TARDIS ignores as it tries to fling Captain Jack off (really, that guy will try to hump anything).

Really puts a new spin on the way he tried to jump on board, doesn't it?

[Khaat]

Nah, we know what happens to humanity in the Who-verse. They go through a series of forms, including ani-men, transhumans, etc ... Earth goes boom ... no 'real' humans left. Then what is left of humanity is the last life remaining at the end of the universe.

We have seen the "at the end of the universe" version of humanity, yes, but i. That same episode didn't the Doctor say, "maybe you spend millions of years as energy beings, but you always come back to this form."

And we know there are humans messing with timetravel in the "near" future: time agents and the tesselectae (is that a valid plural form?). That's 51st millenia, a long time from the end of the universe or even the destruction of earth!

There is nothing said against one of those transient forms humans take being humanoid, but with 2 hearts and a bit too much exposure to the time vortex? The "end form" obviously isn't all humans (there have been contemporaneous ani-men, hybrid humans, and half-aliens shown. Even the Face of Boe mumblemumble....)

[Iroscato]

Interesting theory...are you saying the Time Lords could in fact be an offshoot of humans? I suppose that would add a nice paradoxical twist to things, and with time travel it would hardly matter about such nonsense like linear evolution.

[SpottedKitty]

I don't think anyone's mentioned this yet (just watched the repeat, so it's fresher in my mind).

So, Davros has had the Doctor's sonic screwdriver in his back pocket all along. Haven't we frequently seen Davros' travel machine use a little detachable joysticklike thingummy? Has it been right there in front of us all this time (or a lot of it, anyway), and we never realised the significance?

Or have I got myself thoroughly becroggled again...?

[Khaat]

I don't think anyone's mentioned this yet (just watched the repeat, so it's fresher in my mind).

So, Davros has had the Doctor's sonic screwdriver in his back pocket all along. Haven't we frequently seen Davros' travel machine use a little detachable joysticklike thingummy? Has it been right there in front of us all this time (or a lot of it, anyway), and we never realised the significance?

Davros' chair has a pair of joysticks, but not the Doctor's screwdriver.

Interesting theory...are you saying the Time Lords could in fact be an offshoot of humans?

Wild speculation, but yes, Time Lords are an off-shoot human. Could have started much earlier than the 51st, in fact: Orson Pink was only 100 years into the future!

Want the mind-bender? So are the Daleks! The Kaled (human stock!) got into a 1000 year war, and Davros created the Daleks to fight "the enemy". Then things got interesting, and they went off on their mission, like a Saberhagen Berserker.

Consider: in "Bad Wolf", the Daleks are harvesting humans from the games at Satellite Five, sieving each for "suitable cells" ("one in a billion" - so of 37.2 trillion cells each human, that's ... a whole lot, actually!), but why would human cells be suitable for Daleks? Because Daleks are humans!

[applejack]

Did they ever explain how Missy came back from last season?

Maybe I'm misremembering, but I explicitly recall thinking that the effect on Missy when the Doctor shot her was very different than the usual disintegration effect in other parts of the finale and that she actually teleported away rather than died. There was even a confused look on the Doctor's face, as if it's not what he was expecting when he fired. So I just assumed she lived to fight another day.

[B5B7]

Oh yeah. I remember that. It was definitely a teleportation effect, like those that were shown earlier.

[Crazedwraith]

That was not my read on the scene at all. But I'm not watching that garbage again the find out.

[Enigma]

I believe it was the Brigadier Cyberman that shot her.