The size of the Star Wars Galaxy

[Eternal_Freedom]

Right, Watch-Man, we need to talk. Are you going to answer any of my earlier comments or not? If not, then shut the fuck up.

If I'm not mistaken, I have answered any of your earlier comments. You get quoted in two of my posts [1] and [2]. Insofar the claim that I haven't answered any of your earlier comments is baseless if not an outright lie.

No sir, I am referring to these posts here and here. You answered precisely one point from the second post.

But it is right that I have decided that I won't continue the discussion of sensors as that - as the discussion went - was only a detraction from the purpose of that thread. But even then I quoted you again when I informed you about my decision, admitting that a claim you made was relevant as if it were true, it would prove something important for the purpose of that thread. That's why I asked you to provide evidence for your claim that the display in the bunker on Endor depicted the approaching rebel fleet.

I can only provide a logical inference - what else would the Imperials be monitoring that is approaching?

Also, I find it utterly hilarious that you're demanding evidence for every little thing with no supposition allowed, but you're whole thread is based on your "impression" that the SW is much smaller and/or denser than the Milky Way. How about you post some canon evidence that this is so?

You are allowed to find that "utterly hilarious". The thing is that I do not claim any size for the Star Wars galaxy.

I do not claim that it is smaller and/or denser than the Milky Way. I have only said that this was my impression when watching the movies. And I have given the reasons for this impression in my very first post in that thread. But that does not mean that I claim to know how big the Star Wars galaxy is or that it is smaller and/or denser than the Milky Way. I know that first impressions can be wrong as they are subjective and that it is important to see the objective evidence and only then form an opinion based on the available evidence and not on what you'd like to be true.

In this thread I only want to know which canonical evidence there is for the morphology and dimension of the Star Wars galaxy.

If you can provide canonical evidence that the Star Wars galaxy is larger than the Milky Way, I'll gladly accept this as this is exactly what I'm looking for: Canonical evidence and not opinions tainted by the EU.

I have provided a logical inference based on multiple pieces of canonical evidence that the SW galaxy is approximately the same size as the Milky Way, when I discussed the desnity of the star fields...a post you completely ignored.

All we have to go on is logical inference, which leads us to assume it's roughly the same size as the Milky Way, as I've stated (and you've failed to answer). You are the one making the claim that it is small or otherwise peculiar, so put up some actual evidence for it (no "impressions" please) or go the fuck away.

See - your are even unable to understand what you are reading - but you are speaking of logic. That's "utterly hilarious".

I have not claimed that I know anything about the Star Wars galaxy - as I'm still locking for any evidence so that I can form an opinion beyond my first impression. Because I know that first impressions can be wrong as they are subjective. That is - as I have already explained to you - why I do not want to discuss any impressions but objective evidence - if there is any.

Ok then, fine. Objective evidence:

1. The star fields shown in all six films are roughly similar to what we see from Earth orbit.
2. These star fields are seen in all six films and are from multiple different locations around the galaxy - from core regions (Alderaan and Coruscant) to the mid rim regions (Naboo) to the outer rim (Tatooine, Yavin, Endor, Geonosis, Hoth et al) - thus the starfield appearance cannot be based on it being an oddity star cluster or something like that.
3. Everything else we see is consistent with a large spiral or barred-spiral galaxy. No evidence contradicts this except for what is inferred from dialogue that has no stated durations or lengths of time mentioned.

Conclusion: The SW galaxy is roughly the same size and morphology as the Milky Way or Andromeda.

Also, what is with you adding the list/list bits to every one of your posts? It's irritating as hell when I have to quote you.

That question is irrelevant and only detracts from the purpose of that thread.

And it would only take you ten seconds to answer it.

[WATCH-MAN]

• Annotation:
  

  This is also backed up by several cases from Clone Wars, including Jedi Crash, in which the navicomputer is dead and yet they can still detect that a star is in front of them.

  • I have just looked for the episode and could not find evidence that they could detect the star with their sensors while being in hyper space. The commander said that in their haste to escape, the navi-computer's coordinates were inputted incorrectly. To ascertain this, he had to know what was inputted into the navi-computer. Knowing what was inputted into the navi-computer means knowing whereto they were flying. And if he knew that they were flying into the direction of a star, that was there the last time he looked, he knew that he did not have to look again to know that it is still there. There was no need to detect the star with any sensors nor was it mentioned that the star was indeed detected and not its position merely interpolated as they knew where it was and how fast they were flying to it.

[WATCH-MAN]

• If I'm not mistaken, I have answered any of your earlier comments. You get quoted in two of my posts [1] and [2]. Insofar the claim that I haven't answered any of your earlier comments is baseless if not an outright lie.

  No sir, I am referring to these posts here and here. You answered precisely one point from the second post.

  • With other words: You were lying when you claimed that I haven't answered any of your earlier comments. Or are you a drama queen?

  But it is right that I have decided that I won't continue the discussion of sensors as that - as the discussion went - was only a detraction from the purpose of that thread. But even then I quoted you again when I informed you about my decision, admitting that a claim you made was relevant as if it were true, it would prove something important for the purpose of that thread. That's why I asked you to provide evidence for your claim that the display in the bunker on Endor depicted the approaching rebel fleet.

  I can only provide a logical inference - what else would the Imperials be monitoring that is approaching?

  • The problem is that you aren't good at logic.
    
    Curtis Saxton, who holds a doctorate in astrophysics, argues that this display shows the movement of the imperial fleet [Star Wars- Technical Commentaries - Miscellaneous Technicalities - Battle of Endor (Space)].
    
    He even thinks that provides some evidence indicating lower limits on the accelerative capabilities of the Executor [Star Wars- Technical Commentaries - Executor-class Star Dreadnoughts (“Super Star Destroyers”) - Propulsion].
    
    But as it seems you want to claim that the display can only depict the approaching rebel fleet; that logic does not allow another possibility and thus you have not to provide any evidence.

  I have provided a logical inference based on multiple pieces of canonical evidence that the SW galaxy is approximately the same size as the Milky Way, when I discussed the desnity of the star fields...a post you completely ignored.

  • Your logic is a unique point of view.
    
    You have only made claims - without providing any evidence.
    
    The following image shows Earth, the moon and space as seen from Earth's orbit.
    
    • • • • 
    But if you look at the following image, you will notice that you can see far more stars and that the distance between the stars do not seem to be so far away from each other as in the first image.
    
    • • • • 
    If you think that the space as seen in the movies proves anything, please provide conclusive evidence for this claim.

  Ok then, fine. Objective evidence:
  
  1. The star fields shown in all six films are roughly similar to what we see from Earth orbit.
  2. These star fields are seen in all six films and are from multiple different locations around the galaxy - from core regions (Alderaan and Coruscant) to the mid rim regions (Naboo) to the outer rim (Tatooine, Yavin, Endor, Geonosis, Hoth et al) - thus the starfield appearance cannot be based on it being an oddity star cluster or something like that.
  3. Everything else we see is consistent with a large spiral or barred-spiral galaxy. No evidence contradicts this except for what is inferred from dialogue that has no stated durations or lengths of time mentioned.
  
  Conclusion: The SW galaxy is roughly the same size and morphology as the Milky Way or Andromeda.

  • See above. You claim that the space as seen in the movies proves anything, please provide conclusive evidence for this claim.
    
    The following image shows the Milky Way as seen from Earth's orbit.
    
    • • • • 
    Have we seen anything similar in Star Wars?
    
    One would expect that if the Star Wars galaxy is a spiral galaxy as the Milky Way, we would have seen something similar.

[Eternal_Freedom]

That image you used of th Earth and the Moon is really disingenuous, since it was clearly taken during daytime, whilst the Endor image was taken with the camera over the terminator, as night is falling and the sun sets. Even in space, the light from our sun washes out all but the brightest stars (which is why so few stars are visible in the lunar picture from the Apollo program.

The later image you used, of the Milky WAy, is much closer and the star densities are similar to what we see in SW. True, we don't see the galactic disc, but that takes up a (in comparison) small portion of the sky. Yes, it is suspicious and annoying that we never see a galactic disc in SW, but not seeing it does not mean it is not there, not when everything else is consistent.

As for the display screen thing, I will concede it could be the Imperial fleet. However, I am curious as to why none of the Rebels say something like "oh shit what's that huge fleet doing here?"

[Simon_Jester]

I'm simply going to address WATCH-MAN's OP, on the hopeful assumption that he will engage with me on this, because I literally do not have the time right now to sort through everything said on the past 30 posts.

My astrophysical knowledge may be limited, but as far as I know, in the Milky Way I could close my eyes and arbitrary set a course and fly with closed eyes through the Milky Way and the probability that I would collide with anything would be nearly zero. Two galaxies could pass through each other without any collisions.

But in the very first movie I have seen, it was impossible for the Millennium Falcon to even make an emergency jump away from the pursuing Star Destroyers because without precise calculations it could fly right through a star or bounce too close to a supernova.

In Euclidean space, that would be correct. Since we don't know how hyperspace travel works, this is not necessarily true of hyperspace travel.

Or, as Solo puts it, "Traveling through hyperspace ain't like dusting crops, boy!"

The impression that let me be with is that the Star Wars galaxy has to be really dense that it is more probably that you could get destroyed when engaging hyper speed without precise calculations- even for an emergency jump - than to get destroyed by three pursuing Star Destroyers.

If it were sheer density of astronomical objects that caused this, the Star Wars galaxy would be subject to Olbers' Paradox. In other words, there would be so many stars and nebulae in the night sky that if you draw a line in a random direction from your eye into outer space, it should hit a glowing object. In which case the night sky would be full of glowing light in all directions.

That doesn't happen- the night sky in Star Wars is black, by and large.

Therefore, we conclude that the density of celestial bodies in Star Wars simply is not that much higher than the density in the Milky Way.

In the second movie I have seen, the hyper drive of the Millennium Falcon was broken. And yet the Millennium Falcon was able to fly from the Hoth system to the Anoat system to Bespin without its hyper drive.

An explanation was released at this time that there was a backup hyperdrive- which would be a logical precaution. Even if that were not so, the dialogue in the movie is consistent with the obvious explanation that Han and Chewie were able to nurse the hyperdrive through a single short-range jump, but NOT to navigate the galaxy freely. Which is actually quite reasonable for a spacecraft experiencing engine trouble.

Although it was not depicted as a long travel, the movie implies that it was at least long enough for Luke to get a little bit training on Dagobah. But even that means that the distances between the Hoth system and the Anoat system and Bespin have to be relative small. Obviously the travel hasn’t taken years as neither Luke, Han, Leia or Chewbacca has noticeably aged. But in a normal galaxy, interstellar travel with sublight speed should take years.

Again, you simply cannot assert that star systems in Star Wars are mere light-days apart unless you also assert that the night sky in Star Wars should have about, oh... a million times more stars in it than an equivalent night sky in the Milky Way. It doesn't, ever, so this whole thing is a farce.

An explanation was not provided by the movie - although one would expect that all important facts are disclosed as otherwise the audience can’t understand the movie. If there was e.g. a backup hyper drive one would expect that it would have been mentioned as it could have become useful long before the Millennium Falcon drifted away with the garbage from the Star Destroyer.

Given the extensive damage and partially disassembled condition involved in the Falcon's escape, it may well have taken considerable time to get the backup hyperdrive working at all.

In the fourth movie, the hyper drive of the Queen's starship is damaged. It wasn’t possible anymore for them to reach a save planet of the republic where they could get help from the Republic authorities. But it was possible to reach Tatooine. Conclusion: Naboo and Tatooine can’t be too far away from each other.

In the fifth movie, Amidala stated that Geonosis is less than a parsec away from Tatooine. Obi Wan’s emitter could reach Naboo and Tatooine from Geonosis, but not Coruscant. Conclusion: Naboo, Tatooine and Geonosis can’t be too far away from each other.

Alternatively, Naboo and Tatooine are close together, but both are more or less on a direct line between Geonosis and Coruscant. Thus, a transmitter with a 'short' range by Milky Way standards (say, ten thousand light years) might be able to reach Naboo from Geonosis, but not to reach Coruscant from Geonosis.

Another possibility is that there was something special about Geonosis that made it hard to get a transmission out. Perhaps the Geonosians were jamming signals (since they would certainly have been wary of possible Republic scouts), and it was possible to aim a signal away from Coruscant to another, distant world, but not possible to send a clear signal directly to Coruscant. Or perhaps the phenomenon was natural (say, involving Geonosis' extremely dense rings).

What is not credible is that Geonosis and Naboo are next door neighbors. This would require the people of Naboo to be complete idiots to fail to notice the Geonosian military buildup so close to their homeworld. It is certainly not plausible that these star systems are a parsec apart, compared to the far more likely and common explanation

In other words, movie dialogue does not contradict movie plot. If the plot of the movie requires that Tatooine and Geonosis be remote, isolated worlds, then they are, no matter what the characters in the movie may say.

Furthermore - even considering “The Clone Wars” or “Rebels” it is conspicuous that most events happened more or less on the same planets - as if there weren’t myriad of other planets on which things could happen. And most planets are depicted as very lightly populated. And too often the same few persons are important.

How probably was it that Chewbacca from the Episodes IV to VI knows Joda?

How probably is it that Governor Tarkin from Episode VI is the same Tarkin seen in Episode III or in the various episodes of “The Clone Wars” and “Rebels”?

How probably was it that the father of the bounty hunter in Episode V and VI is the bounty hunter from Episode II and III?

How probably was it that the Ezra Bridger met with Lando Calrissian or Ahsoka Tano?

There is something people say to show their surprise when they notice that people or events in different places are connected: It’s a small world.

And that’s exactly the impression I have been left with: The Star Wars galaxy is a very small and very dense galaxy.

Even if the population of the Star Wars galaxy were only the population of Earth, it would still be implausible that in a whole galaxy-spanning war there would 'only' be at most a hundred or so significant heroes and villains. Realistically, the relatively small "cast of characters" featured in the new-canon Star Wars is purely an artifact of Star Wars being fiction. Otherwise we are left with the conclusion that the entire population of the Star Wars galaxy is, oh, a few million people, tops... which is in turn not plausible for all sorts of other reasons.

Although there is also an in-story explanation for this- the Force, which routinely acts through a relatively small number of uniquely empowered people whose experiences tend to repeat and reappear.

Now the question is if there is - considering the new canon policy - any evidence to the contrary?

There is a wealth of evidence to the contrary, based entirely on Occam's Razor and basic common sense, even before we worry about actually quoting anything.

But I’m afraid that the image is not distinct enough to draw meaningful conclusions about the morphology or the dimensions of the depicted galaxy.

Furthermore is there any evidence regarding the size of the Republic or the Empire in this Galaxy?

Do we have to invent many elaborated explanations - or take them from the EU - to explain why the Star Wars galaxy is at least as big as the Milky Way and yet all I have described above is possible?

Or isn’t it the easiest explanation that the Star Wars galaxy is indeed very small and dense.

Our knowledge of astrophysics tells us that spiral galaxies are always at least several thousand light years across, and almost always more like several tens of thousands of light years across (like the Milky Way and Andromeda). We know the Star Wars galaxy is a spiral galaxy. We can therefore conclude it is at least several thousand light years across, and almost certainly ten times bigger than that.

[Boeing 757]

• I reckon that it is safe to wager that the Star Wars Galaxy is roughly about the size of the Milky Way Galaxy, and for all we know it may be either larger by an unknown degree. I would be interested though to find out how many worlds are colonized. Before the reordering of canon by Disney, the EU and and older canon sources supported the notion of a million member systems with millions of other colony-worlds. Those have now obviously been done away with. It is definitely certain per the films that there are tens of thousands of worlds spread throughout the whole galactic disk, at the very least.
  
  On a somewhat related note (not meaning to derail the thread): the civilization that constitutes the Galactic Republic and Empire has at its disposition extragalactic travel, as witnessed both in AOTC and TESB...and not only the government, but private organizations. That is actually very impressive.

  • The purpose of that thread is not to find out your opinion as this may have been tainted by the EU.
    
    The purpose of that thread is to find objective evidence in the still valid canon for the morphology and dimension of the Star Wars galaxy.

Well that is obviously pointless, since without the EU books which gave us specific numbers, we can not come to an accurate number for you. What we do know from available canon sources is that the SW Galaxy is a spiral galaxy, and it has companion dwarf spiral-galaxies in orbit about itself. That means that it could be far bigger than the Milky Way (that could range upwards to 200,000 lightyears or 500,000 lightyears in diameter), equal in size to the Milky Way or perhaps smaller (50,000 lightyears or so). Ideally, I would say that it is on par to the Milky Way to be fair.

And my guess is that you are so keen to make it out far smaller than the Milky Way so that the speed of hyperdrive can be lowered to that of ST warp drive. Just a guess....

I reckon that it is safe to wager that the Star Wars Galaxy is roughly about the size of the Milky Way Galaxy, and for all we know it may be either larger by an unknown degree. I would be interested though to find out how many worlds are colonized. Before the reordering of canon by Disney, the EU and and older canon sources supported the notion of a million member systems with millions of other colony-worlds. Those have now obviously been done away with. It is definitely certain per the films that there are tens of thousands of worlds spread throughout the whole galactic disk, at the very least.

On a somewhat related note (not meaning to derail the thread): the civilization that constitutes the Galactic Republic and Empire has at its disposition extragalactic travel, as witnessed both in AOTC and TESB...and not only the government, but private organizations. That is actually very impressive.

• The purpose of that thread is not to find out your opinion as this may have been tainted by the EU.
  
  If you make such a claim, please provide evidence for it.
  
  If you want to claim that at the end of Episode VI the Star Wars galaxy was seen and thus the Rebel fleet had to be outside of the galaxy, I expect you to provide evidence that what was seen was indeed a galaxy. According to Curtis Saxton, who holds a doctorate in astrophysics, it can't be a galaxy [Star Wars - Technical Commentaries - Astrophysical Concerns - Rendezvous-point spectacle].

And in the audio commentary of TESB, it was stated that that object is the SW Galaxy. The fact that it seems to spin too quickly, is purely a visual FX error, and may be reasonably be explained away by the fact that the Rebel fleet could have been maneuvering in space (which, it was seen doing so). The object appears too be a spiral galaxy, and the Millenium Falcon sets course towards it. Or are you going to claim that the MF was on course into a planetary nebula?

• • • • 

If you want to claim that the planet Kamino is outside of the galaxy, that the Rishi Maze is a dwarf satellite galaxy and that Kamino lies south of it, I expect you to provide evidence for this.

If you want to claim that in the Jedi archives Obi Wan pointed to what appears to be a galaxy in the background, I expect evidence that from his perspective his finger pointed to this galaxy.

• • • • 

It is not enough to show that from the perspective of the camera his finger was in front of what appears to be a galaxy in the background. You have to provide evidence that from his perspective, he was pointing to it, that if you would elongate his finger, the tip would touch the display exactly where the galaxy is.

In the Wookipedia entry about Kamino it is written in the chapter Behind the scenes that Obi Wan pointed toward the Unknown Regions, where no known systems are located.

My impression was that he pointed to the edge of the screen to activate the zooming back routine. He was already there locking for Kamino. When he wanted to show Jocasta Nu the space where he assumed Kamino to be, he simply zoomed back to that part. That seems to me to make more sense as to believe that he pointed with his finger at the display when it still depicted three galaxies to show Jocasta Nu where exactly Kamino is supposed to be. With the size of this display, depicting three galaxies, you can not point with a human finger to anything and hope to be able to distinguish anything meaningful regarding an individual star or planet.

[/list][/list]

Give me a break, dude. Then what else were the spiral galaxy-looking objects in orbit about the main one? Were they asteroids or something? You're grasping so hard for straws here that it hurts.... Obi-Wan was describing the location of Kamino on the digital screen, and pointed to the galaxy-looking object while naming it the Rishi Maze. Kamino is stated to be located not too far away from the Rishi Maze, only a few parsecs outside (but still deemed to be part of the SW galaxy). Nice try, though, but we're not idiots.

[Lord Revan]

the exact distance was 12 parsecs that's essentially a stone's throw away in intergalactic terms

[Boeing 757]

Right. It's closer to the Rishi Maze, but for some reason is still considered part of the GFFA.

[Lord Revan]

Right. It's closer to the Rishi Maze, but for some reason is still considered part of the GFFA.

it's possible that the satellite galaxies are considered part of GFFA.

[Boeing 757]

Right. It's closer to the Rishi Maze, but for some reason is still considered part of the GFFA.

it's possible that the satellite galaxies are considered part of GFFA.

It might...there is no reason why our definition of galaxy has to match theirs in its entirety.

[Lord Revan]

Right. It's closer to the Rishi Maze, but for some reason is still considered part of the GFFA.

it's possible that the satellite galaxies are considered part of GFFA.

It might...there is no reason why our definition of galaxy has to match theirs in its entirety.

it's could also be that they use the term "galaxy" to refer both to the local galactic cluster (aka the Main Galaxy and the satellites) and the Astronomical term. Kind of how moons of planets are sometimes included when talking about the planet in regular convensations

[Adam Reynolds]

As for the display screen thing, I will concede it could be the Imperial fleet. However, I am curious as to why none of the Rebels say something like "oh shit what's that huge fleet doing here?"

This is off topic from the discussion as to the size of the SW galaxy, but it is interesting. We also failed to see any concern from Han and company when they land on Endor and see the Executor. Perhaps the Rebel fleet expected a force of something comparable to the Executor and escorts around the Death Star. They just didn't expect that the Empire would know they were coming, assuming that they could get in a sucker punch before the Empire was expecting them.

Though it is odd that other than Lando, no one expected it to be a trap when they didn't see the Imperial fleet. That would have been the obvious thing to assume when no Imperial force was present.

Though I would still agree with you that it is likely the Rebel fleet in hyperspace being detected. A fleet that large would presumably be somewhat easy to detect. While the idea that size has to do with easy of detection is conjecture, it would justify the small size of smuggling vessels in Star Wars. The Millenium Falcon has an easier time jumping into a system undetected than something the size of a Star Destroyer, epsecially as the Falcon is likely faster and thus more able to outrun enemy sensor pulses.

Where have I attacked anyone for using the EU. In this thread I'm looking for canonical evidence. The EU is - as far as I know - not canon any more.

And I have not used Wookipedia to prove any facts about the movies. I have referred to it to show that the interpretation of something shown in the movies is disputed. With that I only wanted to show that it is necessary to provide evidence; that a claim is not enough.

You are using Wookipedia, which is making the claim that supports you based on EU references, while also ignoring the same EU that claims that the SW galaxy is the same size as ours.

That's irrelevant as it does not change the fact that Wookipedia agrees that Obi Wan did not point to what appears to be a galaxy in the background. Whether the region to which he pointed is called the "Unknown Regions" is totally irrelevant. It is not - according to Wookipedia - the object that appears to be a galaxy in the background.

Again, they are referring to the unknown regions, which in the old post-ROTJ EU was where Thrawn's species the Chiss lived. They are doing this in an attempt to reconcile the EU with what we see in AOTC that contradicts this, which is impossible. Perhaps they are assuming that the Unknown Regions are where Kamino is, or that the Satellite Galaxy makes up the Unknown Regions.

My point is that the Wookiepedia entry is irrelevant. It is trying to fit something into canon that cannot be. Don't use it as evidence, even to back up your position. These are the same editors who tried to fit IG-88s Death Star into the battle of Endor.

Again and only to be clear: I do not claim that it can not mean this. But I'm claiming that it could mean something different too. It could e.g. refer to the Outer Rim of the Republic or to a region beyond explored space or to the Outer Rim of a cluster. What canonical evidence is there that "Outer Rim" means the outer edge of the galaxy?

When it appears that Obi-Wan points outside the galaxy AND that it is refereed to as beyond the Outer Rim. It is possible that it means something else, but is it likely?

Who says that this wasn't the umpteenth time that he remembered his guests what for a great man he is. After all, the lack of any reply was so conspicuous that even Han noticed it and commented on it.

This is grasping at straws. So he went into the hold, then back into the cockpit, then back again to boast yet again about how good he was? Please. The logical assumption is that he spend a period of time avoiding pursuit. Which is exactly what Obi-Wan was overpaying him to do.

FTL sensors are also backed up by the incredulous response by Imperial offcicers on the bridge of the Avenger. If it were possible for FTL ships to disappear from enemy scopes, then they would simply make the assumption that the Falcon jumped to hyperspace rather than that it cloaked.

Please describe exactly what happened in it. Did they jumped to hyper speed without a navigation computer? Or where they flying in normal space? Did they really detected the star in front of them or did they knew that it was there?

I'll try to find that episode online - but maybe you can answer my question now.

List of Clone Wars examples of detecting ships before they come out of hyperspace:
Shadow of Malvolence: Clone Y-wings detect and identify Malvolence before it jumps out of hyperspace. Again, at the end of the episode Malvolence detects three Republic destroyers as they jump out of hyperspace

Jedi Crash: Commander Bly refers to the navicomputer as completely fried. After this fact they are still able to determine how close the star is, with Bly again complaining that they were cutting it awfully close. That would obviously mean that they must be detecting the star with their sensors.

Grevious Intrigue: The CIS again detects the Republic fleet before it arrives.

I could keep going easily enough. Clone Wars is chock full of examples of this.

That point is not relevant for the purpose of that thread.

At least you failed to explain why your explanation is supposed to be relevant for the question if there is canonical evidence for the morphology and dimension of the Star Wars galaxy.

My point about tracking devices was in direct response to this:

20th century technology is not able to do that and as far as I know we have no evidence that this happened in the movies. Quite the contrary: In Episode IV and in Episode II they had to use homing beacons to allow them to follow ships.

I was explaining why they used tracking beacons even though they have FTL sensors. It is simply a question of range. When they are capable of the speeds that we see, it is difficult to pursue a ship in hyperspace without a tracking device.

Yes ... what do you want to say with that obviousness?

Even if Hoth-Anoat-Bespin are extremely close together, it doesn't mean that the rest of the galaxy is.

[WATCH-MAN]

• That image you used of th Earth and the Moon is really disingenuous, since it was clearly taken during daytime, whilst the Endor image was taken with the camera over the terminator, as night is falling and the sun sets. Even in space, the light from our sun washes out all but the brightest stars (which is why so few stars are visible in the lunar picture from the Apollo program.

  • And why did that not happen in the Star Wars galaxy?
    
    You claim that their space looks like our space.
    
    But it does not looks like our space.
    
    We see the Star Wars galaxy even with the sun visible and dazzling us.
    
    • • • • 
    • • • • • • • • 1:47 - 1:58
    And yet we are able to see far more stars with a far greater density as we are seeing from Earth orbit - when not looking into the direction of the Milky Way.

  The later image you used, of the Milky WAy, is much closer and the star densities are similar to what we see in SW.

  • If you look at that image, you may notice that the star density varies in the whole image, that it gets denser the more you look at the disc. Can you provide evidence that we have seen anything similar in Star Wars?

  True, we don't see the galactic disc, but that takes up a (in comparison) small portion of the sky.

  • Exactly.
    
    What we see in Earth orbit depends on where we are looking.
    
    And yet you claim that the space we have seen in Star Wars is the same as our space - without providing any evidence.
    
    Fact is that I have provided several images from our space and the Star Wars space and it does not look alike.
    
    But it is not may task to disprove you. I asked you to elaborate your claim and provide evidence.

  Yes, it is suspicious and annoying that we never see a galactic disc in SW, but not seeing it does not mean it is not there, not when everything else is consistent.

  • Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
    
    But the absence of evidence is conspicuous - especially as we have seen - as you are saying it yourself - Star Wars space from many places and directions. Look at the video above - the arrival at Tatooine: There the camera seems to swing around at least 180°. It's the same in many other scenes. A ship flies toward the camera, the camera swings around and the ship flies away from the camera.
    
    That's what made Star Wars so spectacular - the used technique as it was never before exercised for a motion picture production.
    
    But that is what enables us to see very much of the space.
    
    And yet we have never seen a galactic disc.

  As for the display screen thing, I will concede it could be the Imperial fleet. However, I am curious as to why none of the Rebels say something like "oh shit what's that huge fleet doing here?"

  • Who knows?
    
    The presence of an imperial fleet may have been expected - as there wasn't any concern expressed when the Super Star Destroyer with its escort was present, when the task force arrived.
    
    • • • • 
    Maybe they thought it is another fleet - knowing that it can't be the Rebel fleet yet.
    
    Such a big station - still under construction - it wouldn't be unusual that there are many ships going and coming, bringing personnel, equipment and construction materials. And it is not unheard of that cargo ships are forming fleets and having escorts - especially if there is a rebellion going on that may target a lone cargo ship that is trying to bring personnel, equipment and construction materials to the Imperator's new super weapon.

[WATCH-MAN]

• I'm simply going to address WATCH-MAN's OP, on the hopeful assumption that he will engage with me on this, because I literally do not have the time right now to sort through everything said on the past 30 posts.
  
  [...]
  

  • You totally missed the purpose of that thread.
    
    And I literally do not have the time right now to sort through your post to see if there is anything in it that's relevant.

[WATCH-MAN]

• Well that is obviously pointless, since without the EU books which gave us specific numbers, we can not come to an accurate number for you.

  • That would mean that there is no evidence.

  What we do know from available canon sources is that the SW Galaxy is a spiral galaxy, and it has companion dwarf spiral-galaxies in orbit about itself.

  • It's like in a kindergarten. One has to say the same thing again and again as nobody is able to listen to what was said to another.
    
    Do you have any evidence for this claim?
    
    And please consider what was already said in the very first post of this thread and in all other posts; all the arguments and objections in this thread.
    
    I will not answer you again if you merely repeat what others have already said and thus force me to repeat my objections again.

  That means that it could be far bigger than the Milky Way (that could range upwards to 200,000 lightyears or 500,000 lightyears in diameter), equal in size to the Milky Way or perhaps smaller (50,000 lightyears or so).

  • Or it could have a diameter of less than 5 kpc - as there are spiral galaxies that are so small.
    
    Or it could be no spiral galaxy at all. It could be an elliptical galaxy or an irregular galaxy.

  Ideally, I would say that it is on par to the Milky Way to be fair.

  • And this shows a blatant bias.
    
    Why not look at the objective evidence and form then an opinion.
    
    Why not admitting that there are things we simply do not know.
    
    That wouldn't make the Star Wars galaxy small or big.
    
    It would simply mean that we do not know much about its morphology or dimension.

  And my guess is that you are so keen to make it out far smaller than the Milky Way so that the speed of hyperdrive can be lowered to that of ST warp drive. Just a guess....

  • There is a saying: What I'm willing to do myself, I wouldn't put past others.
    
    You have shown your bias above.
    
    Maybe your goal is to keep the Star Wars galaxy as large as the EU says it is so that the speed of hyper drive is not lowered.
    
    That's why you are arguing that the Star Wars galaxy is at least as big as the Milky Way - whereas I'm arguing nothing but am only looking for objective evidence.
    
    If the objective evidence supports the claim that the Star Wars galaxy is at least as big as the Milky Way, I can live with it.
    
    If the objective evidence proves that the Star Wars galaxy is far smaller, I can live with it too.
    
    It there is no objective evidence, I can live with the uncertainty too.

  And in the audio commentary of TESB, it was stated that that object is the SW Galaxy.

  • The audio commentary is overridden by the movie.

  The fact that it seems to spin too quickly, is purely a visual FX error,

  • Now you ignore evidence you do not like.
    
    With that argumentation we can dismiss all we are seeing in space as all is only FX.
    
    Or are we cherry picking? What supports our view is admissible and what contradicts our view has to be an FX error?

  and may be reasonably be explained away by the fact that the Rebel fleet could have been maneuvering in space (which, it was seen doing so).

  • Do you really understand what you are saying?
    
    That would mean that the rebel fleet hat to move with billion times the speed of light.
    
    Curtis Saxton has explained it: "the observed rotation would equate to rotational speeds on the rim reaching at least "the impossible velocity of 33 billion times the speed of light"."
    
    Assuming that this is indeed a galaxy but it is not rotating as fast as seen, that the rebel fleet is moving around it, means, that the rebel fleet has to be as fast - and even fast as they are far far farther away from the rim.

  The object appears too be a spiral galaxy

  • Repeating a claim several times does not substitute the necessity to provide evidence.

  and the Millenium Falcon sets course towards it. Or are you going to claim that the MF was on course into a planetary nebula?

  • Where is the problem?
    
    Why not flying through a nebula - if it is a nebula?
    
    Furthermore: Who says that the Millennium Falcon flew through whatever it is and not past it?

  Give me a break, dude.

  • It would be good if you take a break and start to sort your thoughts.

  Then what else were the spiral galaxy-looking objects in orbit about the main one?

  • 1. I have not claimed that the objects that appear to be a galaxy in the background is not al galaxy.
    2. I have not seen any evidence that they are orbiting the galaxy that is depicted in the middle of the screen.

  Obi-Wan was describing the location of Kamino on the digital screen [...]

  • Yes - he was trying to describe the location of a star system on a screen depicting three galaxies.

  , and pointed to the galaxy-looking object while naming it the Rishi Maze.

  • No
    
    Please consider what was already said in the very first post of this thread and in all other posts; all the arguments and objections in this thread. I will not answer you again if you merely repeat what others have already said and thus force me to repeat my objections again.
    
    This one time I will repeat what I had already written and what you should have considered:
    

    • • • • It is not enough to show that from the perspective of the camera his finger was in front of what appears to be a galaxy in the background. You have to provide evidence that from his perspective, he was pointing to it, that if you would elongate his finger, the tip would touch the display exactly where the galaxy is.

            and
            

            [...]
            
            I can not see how far away his finger was from the display, where it would be when looked from the perspective of Obi Wan or where it would touch the display if the direction of the pointing finger is followed. As I have already said above, in the Wookipedia entry about Kamino in the chapter "Behind the scenes" they seem to think that Obi Wan pointed toward the Unknown Regions, where no known systems are located.
            
            And watching the "zoom in" direction, it does not appear as it is zooming to somewhere at the edge of the galaxy but into the bulge of the galaxy.
            
            Maybe someone could provide us with an image analysis which considers the typical problems of watching a three-dimensional event on a two-dimensional screen - especially if the seen computer display may be a 3D display, depicting a the three-dimensional map on a two-dimensional surface.
            
            Otherwise I think we have to regard this scene as a non sequitur.
            
            It does not proves that Kamino is outside of the Star Wars galaxy.

    Please provide evidence.

  Kamino is stated to be located not too far away from the Rishi Maze, only a few parsecs outside (but still deemed to be part of the SW galaxy).

  • Not knowing what the Rishi Maze is and where it is, that doesn't mean anything.
    
    Without evidence that Obi Wan pointed to what appears to be a galaxy in the background, we have no evidence that this galaxy is supposed to be this Rishi Maze.

  Nice try, though, but we're not idiots.

  • I wouldn't say that aloud.
    
    Idiots could believe you.
    
    But only idiots as every intelligent man would see through that lie.

[Eternal_Freedom]

On the matter of the image Obi-Wan sees in the Archives, why do you assume that the other objects are merely "in the background?" From a purely practical standpoint, such an image has to be artificial (you try sending a probe that far out from a galaxy just to take a picture. Hint: you wouldn't or couldn't). Since it is an artificial image/map, objects would not be included unless they were relevant or connected in some fashion to the primary object. Ergo, those two objects are either similar sized galaxies in a trinery system, or they are dwarf companion galaxies. Since the very first part of every film says "in a galaxy far far away..." (emphasis on the singular form) we can conclude that it is not a triple galactic system. Thus, they are dwarf companions, QED.

Frankly, WAtch-Man, you're getting really irritating. You keep asking for evidence of every little thing. Let's be honest here. There is no "objective evidence" that you will accept. We can only provide suppositions, logical inferences and extrapolations. All of which are consistent with the Legends-era statements and maps of the SW galaxy being a) roughly Milky Way sized (I think the number tossed around was ~120 kly diameter) and b) a spiral galaxy.

Now, granted, the Legends material is no longer canon. However, in the old days it was only canon if it did not contradict the films. Since the galactic maps etc (and the presence of at least two dwarf companions) was considered canon, that means it did not contradict the films. Thus, there is nothing in the films to rule it out or expressly say the galaxy is smaller.

On a more important note, why do you really care about this? It's a rather odd thing to get so focused on unless you have some ulterior motive in wanting this "objective evidence."

[Simon_Jester]

WATCH-MAN, exactly what IS the purpose of this thread that I have allegedly missed? I feel that I have a right to an explanation.

[Simon_Jester]

the exact distance was 12 parsecs that's essentially a stone's throw away in intergalactic terms

To be fair, WATCH-MAN isn't wrong to note that "parsec" is used liberally and ambiguously in the Star Wars movies. I wouldn't take any distance given in 'parsecs' seriously.

This is off topic from the discussion as to the size of the SW galaxy, but it is interesting. We also failed to see any concern from Han and company when they land on Endor and see the Executor. Perhaps the Rebel fleet expected a force of something comparable to the Executor and escorts around the Death Star. They just didn't expect that the Empire would know they were coming, assuming that they could get in a sucker punch before the Empire was expecting them.

Though it is odd that other than Lando, no one expected it to be a trap when they didn't see the Imperial fleet. That would have been the obvious thing to assume when no Imperial force was present.

I don't know; I could see it either way. The Rebels don't know what is or is not present around Endor due to extreme secrecy. They aren't entirely surprised to see Imperial ships- on the other hand, they aren't surprised to NOT see Imperial ships. If you're trying to build something in extreme secrecy there are advantages to not having a bunch of ships with ten thousand man crews (or more) flying around all over the place.

Although in all truth, the rebels would have to be complete fools to put their secret base that close to some place like Bespin. I don't feel like "the Falcon limped over there at STL speeds" is a plausible event regardless of the overall scaling of the Star Wars galaxy.

[Captain Seafort]

From a purely practical standpoint, such an image has to be artificial (you try sending a probe that far out from a galaxy just to take a picture. Hint: you wouldn't or couldn't).

Why not? They've probably got the capability, even for something as mundane as the GFFA equivalent of the family portrait.

[Eternal_Freedom]

That is possible, but it is still exceedingly probable that the two objects shown are dwarf companions. From the last time Watch-Man brought this up in a thread, I made some rough calculations on how big the damn things would have to be to appear that large at the average galactic separation of ~1 Mpc and I came up with about 500-600 kly diameter. It's not an impossible diameter, but it's definitely at the high end of the galactic size chart, and the odds of having two such large galaxies visible in the image is very unlikely.

And of course, there is the other point. If all they wanted was a nice portrait of their own galaxy, why go to the trouble sending a probe out to where it will catch two other large galaxies as well?

[Captain Seafort]

Sorry, I wasn't clear - I wasn't disputing the likelihood of the other galaxies being dwarf companions, just the statement that they wouldn't or couldn't send a probe out to take a picture.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Ah, I see.

Well, they could do that I suppose. If the object we see at the end of ESB is indeed the SW galaxy, then they can get ships out far enough fast enough to do it (given some of the estimated hyperdrive speeds from ANH and the other films, that's hardly surprising).

Though frankly, I can understand the desire to carry out such a mission, but why would you use such an image as a map, rather than an artificial image based on the "family portrait" as it were?

[WATCH-MAN]

• Where have I attacked anyone for using the EU. In this thread I'm looking for canonical evidence. The EU is - as far as I know - not canon any more.
  
  And I have not used Wookipedia to prove any facts about the movies. I have referred to it to show that the interpretation of something shown in the movies is disputed. With that I only wanted to show that it is necessary to provide evidence; that a claim is not enough.

  You are using Wookipedia, which is making the claim that supports you based on EU references, while also ignoring the same EU that claims that the SW galaxy is the same size as ours.
  

  That's irrelevant as it does not change the fact that Wookipedia agrees that Obi Wan did not point to what appears to be a galaxy in the background. Whether the region to which he pointed is called the "Unknown Regions" is totally irrelevant. It is not - according to Wookipedia - the object that appears to be a galaxy in the background.

  Again, they are referring to the unknown regions, which in the old post-ROTJ EU was where Thrawn's species the Chiss lived. They are doing this in an attempt to reconcile the EU with what we see in AOTC that contradicts this, which is impossible. Perhaps they are assuming that the Unknown Regions are where Kamino is, or that the Satellite Galaxy makes up the Unknown Regions.
  
  My point is that the Wookiepedia entry is irrelevant. It is trying to fit something into canon that cannot be. Don't use it as evidence, even to back up your position. These are the same editors who tried to fit IG-88s Death Star into the battle of Endor.

  • Please ignore what I have said about Wookipedia.
    
    Please ignore what Wookipedia has said.
    
    And we still have the same problem: We need evidence that Obi Wan pointed to what appears to be a galaxy in the background.
    
    And now I'm saying the same thing to you I have already said to Boeing 757:
    

    • • • • Please consider what was already said in the very first post of this thread and in all other posts; all the arguments and objections in this thread. I will not answer you again if you merely repeat what others have already said and thus force me to repeat my objections again.
            
            This one time I will repeat what I had already written and what you should have considered:
            

            • • • • It is not enough to show that from the perspective of the camera his finger was in front of what appears to be a galaxy in the background. You have to provide evidence that from his perspective, he was pointing to it, that if you would elongate his finger, the tip would touch the display exactly where the galaxy is.

                    and
                    

                    [list]
                    
                    [list][list][list]

            [...]
            
            I can not see how far away his finger was from the display, where it would be when looked from the perspective of Obi Wan or where it would touch the display if the direction of the pointing finger is followed. As I have already said above, in the Wookipedia entry about Kamino in the chapter "Behind the scenes" they seem to think that Obi Wan pointed toward the Unknown Regions, where no known systems are located.
            
            And watching the "zoom in" direction, it does not appear as it is zooming to somewhere at the edge of the galaxy but into the bulge of the galaxy.
            
            Maybe someone could provide us with an image analysis which considers the typical problems of watching a three-dimensional event on a two-dimensional screen - especially if the seen computer display may be a 3D display, depicting a the three-dimensional map on a two-dimensional surface.
            
            Otherwise I think we have to regard this scene as a non sequitur.
            
            It does not proves that Kamino is outside of the Star Wars galaxy.

    Please provide evidence.[/quote]

[/list][/list][/list]

Again and only to be clear: I do not claim that it can not mean this. But I'm claiming that it could mean something different too. It could e.g. refer to the Outer Rim of the Republic or to a region beyond explored space or to the Outer Rim of a cluster. What canonical evidence is there that "Outer Rim" means the outer edge of the galaxy?

When it appears that Obi-Wan points outside the galaxy AND that it is refereed to as beyond the Outer Rim. It is possible that it means something else, but is it likely?

• How are they saying it: You put the cart before the horse.
  
  Does it really appears that Obi-Wan points outside the galaxy?
  
  Appearance is subjective. Either he does or he does not. Can you provide evidence that he is doing it.

Who says that this wasn't the umpteenth time that he remembered his guests what for a great man he is. After all, the lack of any reply was so conspicuous that even Han noticed it and commented on it.

This is grasping at straws. So he went into the hold, then back into the cockpit, then back again to boast yet again about how good he was? Please. The logical assumption is that he spend a period of time avoiding pursuit. Which is exactly what Obi-Wan was overpaying him to do.

• Your claim is not?
  
  We do not know how long the journey lasted when that scene occurred.
  
  Is it probably that, if the journey to Aldreaan was supposed to last only a few minutes, Obi-Wan and Luke would begin with their jedi training, that R2D2 and Chewbacca would begin to play chess?
  
  Is it probably that they all would leave the cockpit and relax when Star Destroyers were sill pursuing them?
  
  That scene implies that the journey already lasted already quite a time and that they were not pursued.
  
  And Han said himself that they will be safe enough once they made the jump to hyperspace.
  
  We do not know what Han has done before he came into the main hold.

FTL sensors are also backed up by the incredulous response by Imperial offcicers on the bridge of the Avenger. If it were possible for FTL ships to disappear from enemy scopes, then they would simply make the assumption that the Falcon jumped to hyperspace rather than that it cloaked.

• They considered the possibility that the Millennium Falcon cloaked and rejected it at once as no ship this size could have a cloaking device. Insofar they did not assume that the Millennium Falcon cloaked.
  
  And the next thing that happens it that Needa decides to go to Darth Vader to assume full responsibility for losing them. As it seems, he assumed that they were away, that they have gone to hyper speed. Because if they had not - and couldn't possibly have a cloaking device - they still would have to be in their vicinity.
  
  That he did not exclude this possibility shows that he can not detect ships in hyper space. If he could he would have expected to detect the Millennium Falcon in hyper space flying away if it had gone to hyper space. In that case he would have known that if he hadn't detected the Millennium Falcon in hyper space, it could only mean that it still has to be there, in their vicinity.
  
  Only if vanishing into hyper space is as cloaking, could he come to the conclusion that they have loosed them.

List of Clone Wars examples of detecting ships before they come out of hyperspace:
Shadow of Malvolence: Clone Y-wings detect and identify Malvolence before it jumps out of hyperspace. Again, at the end of the episode Malvolence detects three Republic destroyers as they jump out of hyperspace

Jedi Crash: Commander Bly refers to the navicomputer as completely fried. After this fact they are still able to determine how close the star is, with Bly again complaining that they were cutting it awfully close. That would obviously mean that they must be detecting the star with their sensors.

Grevious Intrigue: The CIS again detects the Republic fleet before it arrives.

• That's again the same as earlier. You make claims without providing any evidence.
  
  Please provide evidence that in the episode "Shadow of Malvolence" they detected and identified the Malvolence before it jumped out of hypers pace.
  
  Please provide evidence that in the episode "Shadow of Malvolence" detected three Republic destroyers before they jumped out of hyper space.
  
  Please provide evidence that in the episode "Jedi Crash" they could detect the star and please consider what I already objected here.
  
  Please provide evidence that in the episode "Grievous Intrigue" the CIS detected a Republic fleet before it jumped out of hyper space.

I could keep going easily enough. Clone Wars is chock full of examples of this.

• I'm sure you could make claim after claim without providing any evidence and leave it to me to disprove you.
  
  But I do not play along with that.

That point is not relevant for the purpose of that thread.

At least you failed to explain why your explanation is supposed to be relevant for the question if there is canonical evidence for the morphology and dimension of the Star Wars galaxy.

My point about tracking devices was in direct response to this:

20th century technology is not able to do that and as far as I know we have no evidence that this happened in the movies. Quite the contrary: In Episode IV and in Episode II they had to use homing beacons to allow them to follow ships.

I was explaining why they used tracking beacons even though they have FTL sensors. It is simply a question of range. When they are capable of the speeds that we see, it is difficult to pursue a ship in hyperspace without a tracking device.

• I did not doubt that you have a point.
  
  But it is irrelevant as it does not proves that they have FTL sensors - nor - and that I admit - disproves it.

Yes ... what do you want to say with that obviousness?

Even if Hoth-Anoat-Bespin are extremely close together, it doesn't mean that the rest of the galaxy is.

• Correct.
  
  But it is conspicuous that such an important event is supposed to have happened at such a peculiar region of the galaxy and that the Rebels decided to hide there

[/list]

[WATCH-MAN]

• WATCH-MAN, exactly what IS the purpose of this thread that I have allegedly missed? I feel that I have a right to an explanation.

  • And I feel that I have the right that someone who wants to participate in this thread reads through it.
    
    Otherwise I would have to repeat me again and again as the same arguments are repeated by everyone who was too lazy to sort through the posts already made and thus could not know what I already answered.
    
    But as you have not the time to sort through the posts already made, I have not the time to repeat me again and again.
    
    I expect from someone who wants to participate in this thread that he considers what was already written in this thread - all the arguments and objections.

[Eternal_Freedom]

He's not asking for a summary you blithering idiot, he wants to know what the point of the thread is and why you seem to care about it so much! Since every one of his points was mad in response to your original post, you should at least respond to them rather than blithely ignoring them like you have so many others!