Saudi Arabia to lead UN Human Rights council

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Saudi Arabia to lead UN Human Rights council

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After Beheading 100 People This Year, Saudi Arabia Joins U.N. Human Rights Council With U.S. Support

The State Department has welcomed news that Saudi Arabia will head a U.N. Human Rights Council panel. Criticism has regularly been levelled at Saudi Arabia by human rights groups due to perennial human rights violations.
Saudi Arabia beheaded over 100 people this year through June. That’s already more than they beheaded in the entirety of 2014. The regime there is also known for its use of floggings and implementation of the death penalty against people convicted as minors. A group of U.N. experts called on Saudi Arabia as recently as this week to spare the nephew of a prominent Shia cleric from beheading and crucifixion. Furthermore, Saudi Arabia is regularly the target of international rights groups’ critiques due to their complete disregard for international human rights standards on free speech, freedom of religion, and a plethora of other violations.
“Saudi Arabia … systematically discriminates against Muslim religious minorities, notably Twelver Shia and Ismailis,” a Human Rights Watch (HRW) 2015 report on Saudi Arabia reads. This development has been widely denounced by figures who see the appointment as a way for Saudi Arabia to justify their current practices.
“[The appointment] is like a green light to start flogging Raif Badawi again!” Ensaf Haidar, the wife of Badawi said according to AJ+. Badawi, who helped found an internet discussion channel to discuss religion and politics, was sentenced to 1,000 lashes earlier this year for insulting Islam. Rights groups have rallied to Badawi’s defense but Saudi Arabia has still given him at least 50 lashes to date.
Another case of criminal punishment has caught the world’s attention as of late and this case has come to light almost synonymously with the appointment of Faisal bin Hassan Trad, Saudi Arabia’s ambassador at the UN in Geneva, to the human rights panel.
Ali-al Nimr, now 21, was arrested at 17-years-old for participating in a protest calling for social and political reforms in Saudi Arabia’s Qatif province. The area is largely inhabited by Shia Muslims, a minority that faces harsher penalties and less rights than the Sunni majority.
After his arrest, Nimr was convicted of belonging to a terror cell, attacking police with Molotov cocktails, incitement, and stoking sectarianism, CNN reported.
“Mr. al-Nimr did not receive a fair trial and his lawyer was not allowed to properly assist him and was prevented from accessing the case file,” independent experts told the UN Office of the High Commissioner for Human Rights.
In a recent interview, State Department deputy spokesman Mark Toner seemed to mangle his words when asked about Nirm’s case.
“I’m not aware of the trial that you — or the verdict — death sentence,” Toner told AP’s Matt Lee. Toner followed up by saying that the U.S. and Saudi Arabia share close ties and maintain an active dialogue and that he hoped their involvement on the Human Rights Council panel would help encourage introspection.
Two other minors, also arrested in 2012 at the Qatif protests have also been sentenced to death and are at risk of imminent execution.
“It is scandalous,” U.N. Watch executive director Hillel Neuer, told CNN. “Petro-dollars and politics have trumped human rights.”


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Re: Saudi Arabia to lead UN Human Rights council

Post by Joun_Lord »

Well it makes sense you know. How else are you going to be able to tell if there are human rights abuses being committed unless you have someone who knows first hand what human rights abuses are. Because they are committing them.

Its the same reason so many cops in America are killing poor people, minorities, and crazy people, so they know what to look for when they are investigating murders. Thats why Europeon cops are so bad at investigating murders as they barely kill anyone!
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Re: Saudi Arabia to lead UN Human Rights council

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The UNHRC has always been a farce. What changed today wasn't that Saudi Arabia joined the council, it's that Wikileaks has revealed that in 2013 the United Kingdom conspired with Saudi Arabia to get them both onto the council.
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Re: Saudi Arabia to lead UN Human Rights council

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Is Saudi Arabia heading the council, or a panel on the council?

Not that I can think of any human rights issue literally ever that the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia is qualified to comment on...
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Re: Saudi Arabia to lead UN Human Rights council

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They are better qualfied to comment on homelessness, poverty or social safety nets than the US.
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Re: Saudi Arabia to lead UN Human Rights council

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Simon_Jester wrote:Is Saudi Arabia heading the council, or a panel on the council?
The later. Said panel also has little actual power even in the scale of the laughable council in the first place. While it is charged with examining 'experts' the council as a whole might wish to use, the actual decisions are made by the President of the Council.

Supposedly this deal was arranged backrooms specifically to convince the Saudis not to try to run for the presidency.
Channel72 wrote:They are better qualfied to comment on homelessness, poverty or social safety nets than the US.
That might be true, if you ignored the overtly slave like ways they treat a rather large fraction of the foreign workers in the country.
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Re: Saudi Arabia to lead UN Human Rights council

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Channel72 wrote:They are better qualfied to comment on homelessness, poverty or social safety nets than the US.
Out of sheer morbid curiosity, can you cite that?

I will also note that when it comes to eliminating poverty, Saudi Arabia has one huge advantage- oil money. Were it not for the revenue stream from oil, they'd be on about the same economic level as most other Third World countries.
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Re: Saudi Arabia to lead UN Human Rights council

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Simon_Jester wrote:
Channel72 wrote:They are better qualfied to comment on homelessness, poverty or social safety nets than the US.
Out of sheer morbid curiosity, can you cite that?

I will also note that when it comes to eliminating poverty, Saudi Arabia has one huge advantage- oil money. Were it not for the revenue stream from oil, they'd be on about the same economic level as most other Third World countries.
Saudi Arabia is the archetypal welfare state. Their per-capita GDP is almost equivalent to the US, it's over $50,000 USD, but their welfare programs are much more extensive than what we have in the US - this is so widely documented, I'm not even sure where to begin citing.

I guess:

http://www.saudiembassy.net/about/count ... twork.aspx
http://www.arabnews.com/news/505026
http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/featu ... bia-text/2

Plus free healthcare, of course.

From http://www.state.gov/j/drl/rls/hrrpt/2000/nea/817.htm:
The oil industry has fueled the transformation of Saudi Arabia from a pastoral, agricultural, and commercial society to a rapidly urbanizing one, characterized by large-scale infrastructure projects, an extensive social welfare system, and a labor market comprised largely of foreign workers.
I mean, the stereotypical Saudi 20-something male is basically an unemployed, bored person who lives off of welfare. Although, the unemployment is not out of laziness - it's mostly because the job market sucks in Saudi Arabia and unemployment is a major problem - since as Sea Skimmer mentioned, a lot of the jobs go to cheap foreign workers who are treated like shit. (Although again, there are some important parallels with the US here.)

Anyway, the point of my statement is less to give the Saudis any compliments and more to poke fun at the US, whose welfare system is so crappy it can actually make Saudi Arabia look good in comparison. Obviously yeah, that doesn't make up for their barbaric Wahhabiist theocracy. And of course, yeah, it's all about the oil money - and even the Saudi welfare system is nowhere near as good as it could be with the resources they have available, since so much state money goes directly to the royal family (because you just can't have enough mega-yachts in the South of France).
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Re: Saudi Arabia to lead UN Human Rights council

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To be fair, if the US were getting a free thirty or forty thousand dollars year or so of per capita money from a bunch of magic holes in the ground that required virtually no effort on the part of any American citizen to operate, it seems likely our welfare system would be a lot better than it is.

It's precisely because all the money in our welfare system does have to come from tax receipts that the Scrooges of our national population fight so insanely hard to minimize that system.
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Re: Saudi Arabia to lead UN Human Rights council

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Unlikely - in the US the entire oil industry would be privatized, and then Exxon would just pay ~0.0001% of their income on corporate taxes, while dishing out insane bonuses and dividends to the royal family shareholders, and we still wouldn't have a good welfare system. Just more mega-yachts...
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Re: Saudi Arabia to lead UN Human Rights council

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How can a country, where apostasy is punishable by death, even be considered for a position on the U.N. Human Rights council?
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Re: Saudi Arabia to lead UN Human Rights council

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biostem wrote:How can a country, where apostasy is punishable by death, even be considered for a position on the U.N. Human Rights council?
Because the UNHRC has repeatedly declared their opposition to defamation of religion (and by "religion" I of course mean "Islam"). There are eleven predominantly Muslim and two 50% Muslim countries on the council and only seven seats for Western Europe and associated countries.
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Re: Saudi Arabia to lead UN Human Rights council

Post by AniThyng »

Yeah and I'd be willing to bet if you left it up to a popular referendum these countries would still be on the side of apostasy must be punished, even if the punishment is not death but mandatory counselling.

Democracy: still only as good as the voting populace. Global moderate Islam gets a lot of free passes from criticism compared to what global Christianity gets and I say this from a so called moderate Muslim majority society.
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Re: Saudi Arabia to lead UN Human Rights council

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Look, I have zero interest in defending KSA, because they're basically just a stupid, horrible anachronistic theocracy that really shouldn't even exist. But then... they rank like #34 on the Human Development Index, above places such as Portugal and Argentina - and not too far below Spain, Austria or Belgium.

Why?

Because if you have a penis, and you're a citizen, life there isn't really bad. It's definitely better than many other places. Well... it's actually pretty fucking boring, since basically all they have there is like, mosques, more mosques, F1 Racing, and er... Applebees (yes they have fucking Applebees). (Plus, mosques.) And the job market is horrible. And if you're a woman you better get a fucking Internet connection, because your life will pretty much be limited to Facebook and online shopping - hopefully your husband has time to take you to the mall once in a while, because you can't leave home without him.

But there's something to be said for their extensive social welfare system. Of course, it's all due to the oil. But so what? They have a natural resource and the state (despite being composed mostly of greedy asshole monarchs) uses this resource to benefit the entire population. In contrast, the USA has many natural resources, yet most of these resources are exploited by private corporations and the average citizen sees zero benefit.

KSA is a bizarre fucking country. They have a worse-than-Medieval mentality when it comes to freedom of religion, women's rights, etc., yet in terms of social safety nets they're ahead of the curve when compared to places like the US, and they have a decent healthcare system as well.

(For fuck's sake, I can't believe I'm actually saying something positive about these idiots.)

But as long as we're talking about the (mostly useless) UN Human Rights council, maybe it would be a bit more productive - (rather than harping on how obviously shitty Saudi Arabia is) - to be more self-reflective and consider that maybe the USA isn't exactly the greatest example when it comes to paving the way for human rights. You guys realize we actually interrogate/torture people (without any lawyers present) in Cuba? You realize we have an insane poverty/homelessness problem in many of our large cities? Before we all point fingers at KSA and their stupid bullshit theocracy, we might want to consider whether or not the US is really in any position to start calling the shots when it comes to Human Rights in the 21st century.

It goes without saying that the US is inordinately better than KSA, since we don't do obviously horrible things like oppress 50% of the population and execute homosexuals and apostates. But that really doesn't help the estimated ~500K to 1 million homeless US citizens, who despite living in a country with numerous wealth-producing natural resources, are not seeing any tangible benefit from these resources, since wealth in the US is controlled almost entirely by private interests and is not distributed amongst citizens/taxpayers.

Meanwhile in KSA, the homeless population is limited to foreigners, since all ~30 million citizens benefit from the welfare state. Citizens get pensions, monthly benefits, free healthcare, etc. That's not to say KSA has somehow completely eliminated poverty. It's hard to actually gauge how effective Saudi social programs are in practice, since the state is actively engaged in propaganda, so any failures are harder to detect from the outside. (I was in Riyadh for about a week a few years ago - so anecdotally it seems like most people are more or less middle class, but I can't really say for sure because I never left Riyadh and the surrounding areas.) But regardless of whatever failings might exist behind the scenes, and no matter how self-serving and absurdly indulgent the monarchy is, it's pretty clear that KSA has done much more to aggressively eliminate poverty and homelessness for its citizens than the US. Again, I'm not saying this to give any compliments to Saudi Arabia - I'm saying it more to criticize the US as some kind of "leader" in human rights. I mean seriously, when a backwards Wahhabiist theocracy is doing certain things better than us, it might just be a serious wake-up call.
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Re: Saudi Arabia to lead UN Human Rights council

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Wake-up call, yes- but we should also be realistic about how the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia does what it does, and why it can do so.
Channel72 wrote:Unlikely - in the US the entire oil industry would be privatized, and then Exxon would just pay ~0.0001% of their income on corporate taxes, while dishing out insane bonuses and dividends to the royal family shareholders, and we still wouldn't have a good welfare system. Just more mega-yachts...
That's possible, but I suspect it wouldn't actually be tenable if the amount of money were that much.

One of the reasons that developed nations have welfare systems is a simple practical one- because otherwise the peasants are relatively more likely to look around and say "why is it that they have so much, when we are living in Third World conditions?" Welfare doesn't necessarilly remove the "they have so much more than us" factor, but it does reduce the pain associated with the "we have so little" side of the equation?

If the Saudi monarchy hadn't used the oil money to benefit the population it is very possible they'd have been overthrown by now.
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Re: Saudi Arabia to lead UN Human Rights council

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That's certainly true - which is why none of the various "Arab Spring" movements really spilled over into the GCC region, where most citizens get stipends and enjoy extensive welfare systems.

Still, I mean, KSA's GDP is about $750b USD. In comparison, ExxonMobil makes about $400b USD annually.

So, really - I mean, the entire country of Saudi Arabia makes only about twice (not even) what Exxon makes every year. I doubt that if Exxon's profits suddenly doubled, or even exceeded KSA, everyone in the USA would all of a sudden be clamoring for welfare reform - and I seriously doubt ExxonMobil would begin "sharing" their revenue (which is obtained largely via natural resources they extract from our federal land). So despite the fact that the KSA monarchy is horrible in most ways, the extensive welfare system they've created really hilights a glaring flaw in the privatized economy of the US.

Of course, I agree their motives are mostly to stay in power. Since they're unelected monarchs, they need to do something to keep everyone happy.
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Re: Saudi Arabia to lead UN Human Rights council

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It also helps that the KSA population is a bare fraction of the US (foreign workers excepted). It's much easier for them to just throw money at their citizens than it would be if they had ~300 million citizens.
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Re: Saudi Arabia to lead UN Human Rights council

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Channel72 wrote:That's certainly true - which is why none of the various "Arab Spring" movements really spilled over into the GCC region, where most citizens get stipends and enjoy extensive welfare systems.

Still, I mean, KSA's GDP is about $750b USD. In comparison, ExxonMobil makes about $400b USD annually.

So, really - I mean, the entire country of Saudi Arabia makes only about twice (not even) what Exxon makes every year.
So ExxonMobil, one of the handful of truly large oil companies in the entire world, makes $1300 per American citizen. Thing is, ExxonMobil's revenues come from global oil extraction.

The proceeds of resources extracted on American soil are substantial, but they are nowhere near the 30-40 thousand dollars per year per citizen level that Saudi Arabia enjoys.
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Re: Saudi Arabia to lead UN Human Rights council

Post by Elheru Aran »

Bear in mind though that welfare is given mainly to those that *need* it, which brings down the number of Americans who would need assistance. How much I couldn't say, but I doubt that the KSA's social welfare systems are used by the royal family and similar oil-rich families. Granted the money there is all coming from the same place...
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Re: Saudi Arabia to lead UN Human Rights council

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It's a matter of proportion- no matter how you analyze it, the percentage of Saudi Arabia's GDP that comes from resource extraction is huge, whereas the percentage of the US's GDP from that source is much smaller. Because the US also has major agricultural, manufacturing, financial, and service sectors. Unlike resource extraction this money doesn't come "from nowhere;" it requires extensive labor by the citizenry, and promotes a different attitude towards the wealth on the part of the public.
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