US forces alledgedly bombed MSF Hospital.

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US forces alledgedly bombed MSF Hospital.

Post by The Romulan Republic »

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/u-s-a ... uz-n438001
JALALABAD, Afghanistan — Twelve Doctors Without Borders staff along with seven patients, including three children, were killed after an apparent U.S. airstrike hit the international charity's hospital in the Afghan city of Kunduz.

Another 37 others were injured in the strike: 19 staff members, including five in critical condition, and 18 patients and caretakers, according to Jason Cone, the executive director for Doctors Without Borders in the U.S. The organization didn't comment on the identities of the victims, but said all international staffers were alive and accounted for.

Coalition spokesman Col. Brian Tribus confirmed that a U.S. airstrike conducted at around 2:15 a.m. local time on Saturday (5:45 p.m. ET Friday) "may have caused collateral damage to a nearby health facility." The incident was being investigated, he added.

Image: Fire burns at Doctors Without Borders trauma center in Kunduz, Afghanistan
A fire burns at the Doctors Without Borders trauma center in Kunduz, Afghanistan, early Saturday. Doctors Without Borders / Medecins Sans Frontieres
Tribus said the bombing was targeting "individuals threatening the force." The U.S. Embassy later described it as a "tragic incident."

Secretary of Defense Ash Carter said in a statement that U.S. forces, Afghan Security Force and Taliban fighters have all been active in the area surrounding the hospital, and "we are still trying to determine exactly what happened."

Taliban militants seized control of Kunduz earlier this week but the Afghan government said Thursday that its forces were in "full control" of the city, which is home to 300,000 people.

The Afghan military also said that the U.S. conducted a 2:15 a.m. airstrike "against insurgents who were directly firing upon U.S. service members." Gen. John F. Campbell, Commander of U.S. Forces in Afghanistan, said he spoke with Afghan President Mohammad Ashraf Ghani.

"Both the President and Gen. Campbell agreed to launch a joint and thorough investigation," said a statement from the president's office. "President Ghani reiterates that the Afghan and foreign forces alike must put in serious efforts not to target public places in military operations," the statement said.

Doctors Without Borders — which is also known as Medecins Sans Frontieres — said its site "was hit several times during sustained bombing and was very badly damaged." It called the incident an "aerial attack."


"The bombs hit and then we heard the plane circle round. There was a pause, and then more bombs hit," Heman Nagarathnam, MSF's head of programs in northern Afghanistan, said in a statement. "Patients who were unable to escape burned to death as they lay in their beds," he said.

A nurse who was asleep in a hospital safe room during the airstrike described the shock he felt when he emerged after the bombings ended and saw the destruction. "The first moments were just chaos. Enough staff had survived, so we could help all the wounded with treatable wounds. But there were too many that we couldn't help," wrote nurse Lajos Zoltan Jecs in a statement released by MSF.

Related: Will Taliban Invasion Keep U.S. Boots on Ground in Afghanistan?

Dalila Mahdawi, a spokeswoman for the charity, said that "all parties to the conflict, including in Kabul and Washington, were clearly informed of the precise location (GPS coordinates)" of its hospital and other facilities in the area.

"The bombing continued for more than 30 minutes after American and Afghan military officials in Kabul and Washington were first informed," Mahdawi added.


"This attack is abhorrent and a grave violation of International Humanitarian Law," added MSF President Meinie Nicolai said in a statement. "We demand total transparency from Coalition forces. We cannot accept that this horrific loss of life will simply be dismissed as 'collateral damage.'"

Nicolai said that on top of the devastating loss of life, the "attack has cut off access to urgent trauma care for the population in Kunduz at a time when its services are most needed." The hospital is the only medical facility of its kind in the northeastern region of Afghanistan, according to the aid agency.

In addition to the twelve workers killed, 37 other people were seriously wounded by the bombing — including 19 staff members.

Image: Doctors Without Borders hospital in Kunduz, Afghanistan, after airstrike
Fires burn in part of a Doctors Without Borders hospital in the Afghan city of Kunduz on Saturday. Doctors Without Borders / Medecins Sans Frontieres / AFP - Getty Images
At the time of the incident, the clinic had 105 patients and their caretakers, and more than 80 international and Afghan staff were present, the charity said.

Adil Akbar, a doctor at the trauma center who was on duty at the time, told The Associated Press that the operating theater, emergency room and other parts of the hospital complex had been hit in the bombing.

"I managed to escape after the attack but I know that most of the staff and even some of the patients are missing," Akbar said.

"PATIENTS WHO WERE UNABLE TO ESCAPE BURNED TO DEATH AS THEY LAY IN THEIR BEDS."
Doctors Without Borders said it had treated 394 people who had been injured since fighting began on Monday when Taliban militants conquered the provincial capital in a stunning setback for the Western-backed government. It was the first major urban area to fall to the Taliban since the U.S.-led invasion of Afghanistan in 2001.

Interior Ministry spokesman Sediq Sediqqi told NBC News that up to 15 militants had "taken position inside the hospital compound" and begun firing on Afghan forces.

"There was an operation conducted to eliminate the threat. The hospital has been damaged and there are some casualties," Sediqqi added. "All of the terrorists were killed, but we also lost doctors."

The Doctors Without Borders clinic in Kunduz is a sprawling facility with numerous buildings situated in the east of the city, in a residential area close to the local office of the NDS intelligence service.

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Afghan Security Forces Retake Most of Kunduz 0:37
The U.S. Embassy released a statement saying it was mourning "the individuals and families affected by the tragic incident at the Doctors Without Borders hospital."

"International and Afghan military planners have an obligation to respect and protect civilians at all times, and medical facilities and personnel are the object of a special protection," U.N. High Commissioner for Human Rights Zeid Ra'ad Al Hussein said in a statement Saturday.

"This event is utterly tragic, inexcusable, and possibly even criminal," Al Hussein said. "The seriousness of the incident is underlined by the fact that, if established as deliberate in a court of law, an airstrike on a hospital may amount to a war crime."
A horrifying tragedy, and a deeply shameful event for the US military if they were, in fact, responsible (as seems to be the case).

I accept that sometimes things are accidentally harmed in wars-one of the reasons they should be the last resort-but the events described here suggest at best a shocking level of incompetence and at worst a deliberate bombing of a hospital and warcrime.

The response should be a fair investigation, apology for any wrongdoing, and compensation for the victims (by the US and Afghani governments). But I don't expect that. I expect ass-covering.
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Re: US forces alledgedly bombed MSF Hospital.

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This was probably a US strike, but there is no way they "heard the plane circle around." They are mistaken, but if they are not the only people with equipment where that is possible is the Afghans.
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Re: US forces alledgedly bombed MSF Hospital.

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Well, I won't comment on weather they could have heard the plane, but I suppose it could be an Afghani strike.

Either way, someone either fucked up ridiculously or committed a possible warcrime.
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Re: US forces alledgedly bombed MSF Hospital.

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For that matter, I'd be disappointed in the US Air Force if there weren't quite a number of aircraft flying around and over Kunduz quite often at the moment- in a variety of directions, at with different altitudes and speeds. It may be that people at the hospital heard a jet airplane somewhere in the area around the city, and then were bombed by another, entirely different airplane.
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Re: US forces alledgedly bombed MSF Hospital.

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The Romulan Republic wrote:Well, I won't comment on weather they could have heard the plane, but I suppose it could be an Afghani strike.

Either way, someone either fucked up ridiculously or committed a possible warcrime.
It is explicitly not a warcrime if insurgent forces retreated into the compound and used it as a base of fire, which is what the article says happened. Typically we don't engage in such situations because of the potential for collateral damage like this, but if the Afghan forces followed them in and then called for close air support... someone MIGHT have decided to give it. This is one of those things that's an awful tragedy, but an unfortunate and inevitable consequence of operating NGOs in areas where there really is no front line.
It's also more than likely exactly what the insurgents/taliban/whoever were trying to provoke.
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Re: US forces alledgedly bombed MSF Hospital.

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Block wrote:It is explicitly not a warcrime if insurgent forces retreated into the compound and used it as a base of fire, which is what the article says happened.
...
It's also more than likely exactly what the insurgents/taliban/whoever were trying to provoke.
Which is a war crime. It's not impossible that a fighting retreat inadvertently brought them to the hospital or something like that, but an enemy force using a hospital as a firing position makes it a legitimate military target, which is why it is a violation of international law to do so intentionally.
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Re: US forces alledgedly bombed MSF Hospital.

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Block wrote:
The Romulan Republic wrote:Well, I won't comment on weather they could have heard the plane, but I suppose it could be an Afghani strike.

Either way, someone either fucked up ridiculously or committed a possible warcrime.
It is explicitly not a warcrime if insurgent forces retreated into the compound and used it as a base of fire, which is what the article says happened. Typically we don't engage in such situations because of the potential for collateral damage like this, but if the Afghan forces followed them in and then called for close air support... someone MIGHT have decided to give it. This is one of those things that's an awful tragedy, but an unfortunate and inevitable consequence of operating NGOs in areas where there really is no front line.
It's also more than likely exactly what the insurgents/taliban/whoever were trying to provoke.
Interesting.

However, I'm not clear on weather the militants were in the compound or simply in the area. At least one source in the article I posted claims they were inside, but others just say they were nearby.

Also, the President of MSF is calling it "...a grave violation of International Humanitarian Law..." in the article. I can understand them not being entirely objective about it. But the UN guy quoted at the end agrees that it could be a war crime.
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Re: US forces alledgedly bombed MSF Hospital.

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It could be, it'll all depend on what actually happened. It's sad either way that the doctors and patients were caught up in it.
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Re: US forces alledgedly bombed MSF Hospital.

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It is explicitly not a warcrime if insurgent forces retreated into the compound and used it as a base of fire, which is what the article says happened.
No, it is what the Afghani military said happened. Those are two different things.
Typically we don't engage in such situations because of the potential for collateral damage like this, but if the Afghan forces followed them in and then called for close air support... someone MIGHT have decided to give it.
So let me get this straight. Taliban forces supposedly entered an MSF hospital compound and used it as a base of fire (you would think MSF would say something about that, what with the armed men inside their hospital), and either Afghani or US forces followed them before requesting CAS? Do I need to draw a diagram as to why that makes no sense?
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Re: US forces alledgedly bombed MSF Hospital.

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The MSF claims that at no time where there Taliban fighters in their compound, that it was a well-known hospital which they told both the Afghanis and the US military about beforehand and that the bombing continued for 30 minutes after telling the US that they were bombing a hospital. Even the US is now talking about how the strike was supposed to hit insurgents "near" the compound. more here.
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Re: US forces alledgedly bombed MSF Hospital.

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Did the US ever claim their were insurgents in the hospital? The only person I recall claiming that is apparently someone in the Afghan government (certainly that's the only person claiming that in the article that I posted in the OP). In fact, the article I originally posted has a US official talking about enemies near the hospital. So phrasing it as "Even the US is now talking about...", implying that the US ever said insurgents were inside, seems rather disingenuous unless you can demonstrate that someone in authority in from the United States made an official claim to that effect.
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Re: US forces alledgedly bombed MSF Hospital.

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Even if there was insurgents in the hospital as the Interior Ministry says, putting fire on a hospital (a hospital still with staff and patients at that) is some pretty fucked up shit even if it might be legal. If insurgents weren't in there then this was a massive cock-up. Can't even be blamed on fog of war as it was a known hospital. At best it can be blamed on miscommunication, that somebody reported insurgents in the hospital by mistake which could have happened easily, but even then someone fired on a hospital without actually confirming the presence of bad guys.

Either way an investigation needs made and preferably by a neutral party. Then whomever is at fault needs punished. But good luck on that, the US won't punish anyone and its not like the Taliban would really care about some UN war crimes sanctions against them if they really were hiding in the hospital.
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Re: US forces alledgedly bombed MSF Hospital.

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The Romulan Republic wrote:Did the US ever claim their were insurgents in the hospital? The only person I recall claiming that is apparently someone in the Afghan government (certainly that's the only person claiming that in the article that I posted in the OP). In fact, the article I originally posted has a US official talking about enemies near the hospital. So phrasing it as "Even the US is now talking about...", implying that the US ever said insurgents were inside, seems rather disingenuous unless you can demonstrate that someone in authority in from the United States made an official claim to that effect.
No, what is fucking disingenious is this statement:
“While we work to thoroughly examine the incident and determine what happened, my thoughts and prayers are with those affected,” Campbell said in the statement. “We continue to advise and assist our Afghan partners as they clear the city of Kunduz and surrounding areas of insurgents. As always, we will take all reasonable steps to protect civilians from harm.”
in light of this:
Precise GPS coordinates for all of MSF’s facilities in Kunduz had been provided to “all parties to the conflict, including in Kabul and Washington,” several times over the past months, and most recently on Tuesday, MSF said in a statement.
Oops.
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Re: US forces alledgedly bombed MSF Hospital.

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You will note that that in no way refutes what I said, which was questioning your implication that the US claimed their were enemies inside.

If you can provide a credible source indicating that someone from the US government or military made an official statement suggesting that insurgents were inside, I'll gladly drop this point. After all, it doesn't change the basic nature of the situation- this is either an inexcusable blunder or a despicable atrocity. But I believe in factual accuracy regardless. So if you can't prove the point, I expect you to concede it. Or, on the off-chance that I misinterpreted your position, to clarify what it actually is.

Don't worry Thanas, there's more than enough to condemn here without making things up.
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Re: US forces alledgedly bombed MSF Hospital.

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The Romulan Republic wrote:You will note that that in no way refutes what I said, which was questioning your implication that the US claimed their were enemies inside.
I made no such implication.
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Re: US forces alledgedly bombed MSF Hospital.

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Then I misread your intentions (as I explained, the wording you used seemed to me to be making that implication, and you did not deny it initially). I retract my objection, with my apologies for any misunderstanding.

I think you and I are, broadly at least, in agreement. I don't like to pass judgement before an investigation is done, but it appears that the US military either made a horrific mistake or committed a warcrime. Neither, obviously, is excusable.
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Re: US forces alledgedly bombed MSF Hospital.

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The Romulan Republic wrote:Then I misread your intentions (as I explained, the wording you used seemed to me to be making that implication, and you did not deny it initially). I retract my objection, with my apologies for any misunderstanding.

I think you and I are, broadly at least, in agreement. I don't like to pass judgement before an investigation is done, but it appears that the US military either made a horrific mistake or committed a warcrime. Neither, obviously, is excusable.
Rereading the thread, I see what you mean now. The "even the US now says" was a reference to the posters above who claimed that there were militants hiding inside, but I can see how it could easily be misunderstood to mean that the US said something different. I shall try to be clearer in the future.
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Re: US forces alledgedly bombed MSF Hospital.

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I would very much like to one day learn the sequence of events and communications that led to and occurred during the bombing.

Sort of like the massive series of screwups that led to the Israeli Air Force and Navy attacking the USS Liberty during the Six Days' War.
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Re: US forces alledgedly bombed MSF Hospital.

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Alyrium Denryle wrote:
It is explicitly not a warcrime if insurgent forces retreated into the compound and used it as a base of fire, which is what the article says happened.
No, it is what the Afghani military said happened. Those are two different things.
Typically we don't engage in such situations because of the potential for collateral damage like this, but if the Afghan forces followed them in and then called for close air support... someone MIGHT have decided to give it.
So let me get this straight. Taliban forces supposedly entered an MSF hospital compound and used it as a base of fire (you would think MSF would say something about that, what with the armed men inside their hospital), and either Afghani or US forces followed them before requesting CAS? Do I need to draw a diagram as to why that makes no sense?
You do, because it makes perfect sense. You follow in, can't dislodge the enemy and call for CAS, it's standard procedure. But parse words more to try to look smart.
As for MSF making a statement, Meh. I'd be not at all shocked by them covering their own ass by refusing to admit that Taliban had taken over some corner of their complex.
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Re: US forces alledgedly bombed MSF Hospital.

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Block wrote:You do, because it makes perfect sense. You follow in, can't dislodge the enemy and call for CAS, it's standard procedure. But parse words more to try to look smart. As for MSF making a statement, Meh. I'd be not at all shocked by them covering their own ass by refusing to admit that Taliban had taken over some corner of their complex.
As opposed to them telling the truth? If anybody has an incentive to cover their ass it certainly is not MSF as it looks like they did everything possible to prevent being bombed. Looks more like the side that bombed them has every incentive to cover things up.
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Re: US forces alledgedly bombed MSF Hospital.

Post by Block »

Thanas wrote:
Block wrote:You do, because it makes perfect sense. You follow in, can't dislodge the enemy and call for CAS, it's standard procedure. But parse words more to try to look smart. As for MSF making a statement, Meh. I'd be not at all shocked by them covering their own ass by refusing to admit that Taliban had taken over some corner of their complex.
As opposed to them telling the truth? If anybody has an incentive to cover their ass it certainly is not MSF as it looks like they did everything possible to prevent being bombed. Looks more like the side that bombed them has every incentive to cover things up.
Not particularly, you just have a desire to see everything the US does as sinister. Supposedly neutral facilities get used improperly all the time and it's embarrassing to the organization to admit it. Like the UN schools in Gaza. Organizations will go extremely far to avoid publicly admitting embarassing facts. Note that I'm not claiming that's what happened, I'm just waiting to see all the facts before assuming the US purposely targeted a hospital complex to kill civilians as some in this thread are implying oh so cleverly.
Did they actually target the hospital? Did these particular bombs miss the target? Were they actually bombing for over half an hour if they were hitting the complex or were they hitting nearby and the staff assumed that the hospital was the continuing target? Why are ALL international staff unharmed while only locals were killed? etc.
Again note that the only statement I've made as fact is that it's tragic that the medical staff and patients were injured and killed.
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Re: US forces alledgedly bombed MSF Hospital.

Post by Gandalf »

Simon_Jester wrote:I would very much like to one day learn the sequence of events and communications that led to and occurred during the bombing.

Sort of like the massive series of screwups that led to the Israeli Air Force and Navy attacking the USS Liberty during the Six Days' War.
Based on the treatment of Chelsea Manning and other whistleblowers, I fear there may not be another whistleblower like that any time soon.
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Re: US forces alledgedly bombed MSF Hospital.

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Manning was not a whistleblower by any stretch of the imagination.
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Re: US forces alledgedly bombed MSF Hospital.

Post by Sea Skimmer »

Block wrote: Did they actually target the hospital?
Yes. In fact its very clear that the hospital was targeted, but you know, odds of it being targeted for the sake of blowing up a hospital don't seem very high. No other building in the compound was hit. The attack was against a specific objective or group of targets. It may have been attacked because Taliban were in the street outside the complex, but nobody seems sure at the moment.
Did these particular bombs miss the target? Were they actually bombing for over half an hour if they were hitting the complex or were they hitting nearby and the staff assumed that the hospital was the continuing target?
It was strafed by an AC-130 for about a half an hour. No bombing raid on a single building would last that long. Its rather typical for people on the ground to report gunship attacks, helicopter attacks, artillery fire ect... all as being 'bombing' in recent wars. That has no real relevance since when a hail of explosions fall from the sky on you untrained people are not likely to regard figuring out the exact cause of the attack as a high priority. As it is the term strafing as used in the English language, it was taken from German in WW1, originally referred to artillery fire.

Why are ALL international staff unharmed while only locals were killed? etc.
This is simply false, several international staff were killed and a number wounded. The fact that anyone survived though, and the place was left standing is precisely because it was AC-130 strike on the building. A couple of guided bombs would have simply leveled the place and killed everyone in seconds.

Though considering that MSF reports 105 people were in the building, and 19 died, suggests the hospital was probably only part of the area being attacked by the gunship. Otherwise its hard to see how it wouldn't have killed far more people in that much time. That's just the cold reality of it.
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Re: US forces alledgedly bombed MSF Hospital.

Post by Block »

Skimmer, from the article
Another 37 others were injured in the strike: 19 staff members, including five in critical condition, and 18 patients and caretakers, according to Jason Cone, the executive director for Doctors Without Borders in the U.S. The organization didn't comment on the identities of the victims, but said all international staffers were alive and accounted for.
So that implies locals.
It was strafed by an AC-130 for about a half an hour. No bombing raid on a single building would last that long. Its rather typical for people on the ground to report gunship attacks, helicopter attacks, artillery fire ect... all as being 'bombing' in recent wars. That has no real relevance since when a hail of explosions fall from the sky on you untrained people are not likely to regard figuring out the exact cause of the attack as a high priority. As it is the term strafing as used in the English language, it was taken from German in WW1, originally referred to artillery fire.
I didn't know it was an AC-130, so being on station that long isn't unreasonable. The rest of it, yes, I understand. An actual bombing would last maybe 15-20 seconds unless they were trying to level the complex. That's why I'm curious to see what updates come because there are a number of inconsistencies that don't make a whole lot of sense.
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