Quite Possibly The Worst Star Wars Story Idea Ever

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Re: Quite Possibly The Worst Star Wars Story Idea Ever

Post by Simon_Jester »

Chris Parr wrote:Well, Adam West played "Batman" with a mock serious deadpan tone, and William Katt played "The Greatest American Hero" the same way, and both of those shows are remembered as comedies despite the fact that neither of them ever had a laugh track.

So I think "The Legend of Gary Stuart" can work as a mock serious deadpan comedy. Or as Adam West said, "The comedy of the absurd" It's tricky, but I really think it can be done.
The point is that such comedy takes talent, lots of it, and it sounds like you haven't got enough writing experience to be contemplating such a project. In which case you're just proposing to write a story that everyone will think is bad, and that you'll be constantly shouting at them over saying "Don't you get it, you morons? It's a parody! It's funny!" while nobody laughs.

Get some experience writing things whose premise works without being a parody, instead of trying to figure out a way to 'salvage' an inherently bad idea that only works as a parody.
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Re: Quite Possibly The Worst Star Wars Story Idea Ever

Post by Chris Parr »

Do you remember my "Technobabble™" spoof ad? Just because you don't get my jokes doesn't mean nobody will laugh.

Okay, granted technobabble was an easy target, but so is Star Wars fiction. Honestly, is there an official Star Wars story out there without a Gary Stu/Mary Sue?
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Re: Quite Possibly The Worst Star Wars Story Idea Ever

Post by Crazedwraith »

Chris Parr wrote:Do you remember my "Technobabble™" spoof ad? Just because you don't get my jokes doesn't mean nobody will laugh.

Okay, granted technobabble was an easy target, but so is Star Wars fiction. Honestly, is there an official Star Wars story out there without a Gary Stu/Mary Sue?
Conversely if people don't get your jokes, maybe they weren't that funny.

And since Gary Stu/Mary Sue is in fact a term referring to fanfiction. All of them.

Even being generous with definitions, most of them don't either. Off the top of my head, who's the mary sue in Allston's X-Wing books? Or the MedStar duology? Or Shatterpoint? Or most of the books centering on the cast of the OT, you can't call luke/han/leia that without making the term meaningless.
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Re: Quite Possibly The Worst Star Wars Story Idea Ever

Post by Chris Parr »

Okay, fine, I won't try to spoof Gary Stu—he's too easy a target anyway.

So, how to fix the problem that is Gary Stu? I can look at quite possibly the most popular example of a Gary Stu—Superman! Most everybody loves Superman, although his popularity has risen and fallen based on his power level. The higher his power, the lower his popularity, which is why they had to create kryptonite during the Forties—the Big Blue had just become too strong!

So there are two ways to deal with Gary Stu—either give him a weakness or cut his power level way back. Personally, I think I'd go with the second option. He's powerful, but not insanely so. I think it's okay to wank character in moderation, just as long as one doesn't go to extremes. At least that's the way it seems to me.
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Re: Quite Possibly The Worst Star Wars Story Idea Ever

Post by Simon_Jester »

You fix the problem by not writing characters like that. This is not hard to grasp. You write characters who have normal, realistic limitations, strengths, and weaknesses. Why would you ever do things otherwise? I mean seriously... [scratches head] I don't understand why this is so hard for you.

Sure, a given character may be exceptionally powerful- in that case, you write a story where he is outnumbered, or where he runs into trouble because he can't be everywhere at once, or where he has a handful of similarly powerful opponents, or where he is the Wise Old Wizard and NOT the protagonist and focus of the story.
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Re: Quite Possibly The Worst Star Wars Story Idea Ever

Post by Lord Revan »

as I stated before what makes Lex Luthor so effective as Superman's nemesis is that Lex Luthor's strengths are were superman is weak mainly Lex Luthor tries outsmart Superman since he knows he can't overpower him.

I don't like reference myself but remember I talked about a really powerful character I had in a story idea I was working, well that is not the main character and in fact his power is reduced about human for most of the story on purpose so that he doesn't become story breaking.

everyone likes Superman sure but comic writers think Superman is one the hardest characters to write for due being so powerful and simplistic morally.

Anyone can write a Superman story but it write a good Superman story takes alot of talent.
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Re: Quite Possibly The Worst Star Wars Story Idea Ever

Post by Chris Parr »

Yeah, that's what I'm saying. If Superman (well, John Byrne's mid Eighties reboot Superman) found himself in the Star Wars galaxy he'd be overwhelmed despite his powers by all the planet busting superweapons and turbolasers and swarms of starfighters there.

So you see even if I give Gary Stu super powers, he'd still be challenged, outnumbered, whatever in that galaxy far far away. And those challenges would be on a grand and sweeping scale. What else do you expect in Star Wars?

And to answer your question as to why I don't want to write about normal people doing normal things, it just sounds dull. Dull dull dull. Like "Robinson Crusoe", who spent page after page after page just making raisins on his desert island. Dull.

Maybe if I used something else as my model, like Edgar Rice Burroughs stories about Barsoom. John Carter becomes a superman on that planet, yet we still have a good series of adventure stories, seems to me.
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Re: Quite Possibly The Worst Star Wars Story Idea Ever

Post by Lord Revan »

the thing Simon and me have been trying to tell you is that to do those stories well you need a lot of talent and skill, if you want to write you should start something that's alot easier to write.
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Re: Quite Possibly The Worst Star Wars Story Idea Ever

Post by Simon_Jester »

Basically, any character that is defined by their unique special powers is going to be hard to write convincingly.

It's much easier to start writing a story in one of two other ways.

1) Imagine a situation- not a person, a situation. Picture the situation unfolding. Imagine realistic people with realistic strengths and weaknesses who fit into that situation. The situation isn't about the people- the story isn't about the people. The story is about the people doing their best to cope with the situation.

2) Imagine a character who is defined by personality. Any powers they may have are incidental to the things that make them interesting. Even in superhero comics, most memorable characters are defined by personality. Think about, oh, Iron Man, who went from a relatively obscure Marvel Comics character to one of the most famous comic book characters of modern times the minute Robert Downey, Jr. started playing him in a movie. Why? Because Downey took the character of Iron Man and gave him personality.

And this is even more true outside superhero comics. Most memorable characters in science fiction follow this rule- they are defined not by their powers but by their sense of ethics (or lack thereof), by the risks they choose to run, by the cunning tricks they use to stay ahead of the opposition, by their relationships with others, by the quirks that an alien upbringing give them. We don't remember Spock because of the Vulcan nerve pinch; we remember Spock because he is logical. We don't remember Han Solo because of his superpowers (he has none), but because he's got an interesting combination of roguishness and honor.
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Re: Quite Possibly The Worst Star Wars Story Idea Ever

Post by Lord Revan »

I'd say we remember Spock for his unique mix of logic and humanity (for lack of a better word)

The character (or should I say Kharacter ;) ) of Shujinko from Mortal Kombat is good example when someone without the talent needed to make it work tries to make character definied by his power, instead of the new main character as Midway intended Shujinko was hated by pretty everyone to the point he hasn't been playable since MK:armageddon and has played very little role in the story of those 3 games that have been published since Armageddon (no role in MKvsDC, cameo in MK9 intro and a minor role in the backstory of MKX) and it's not like Mortal Kombat is known for its rich and varied storytelling.
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Re: Quite Possibly The Worst Star Wars Story Idea Ever

Post by Chris Parr »

Okay, I know this subject is getting old, but I really think a few tweaks here and there will fix it.

So, first of all, he's not psychic. That was a mistake on my part, making him close to all powerful. I admit that. Instead, I'd like him to be an homage to a Superman type character—specifically the Max Fleischer Superman. Not just because that version is in the public domain, but because that Superman had to strain to use his powers, and I think my character should have that same limitation. So he can move mountains, but only with supreme effort. In fact, to do anything beyond what a normal person could do requires intense effort on his part, so you're going to see a lot of teeth gritting.

Also, I think I'll make him an alien—a strange visitor from a distant galaxy. This galaxy, to be exact. An Earthling from the year 1976, since I want him to go in cold, with no clue as to where he is or who all these people and strange creatures are. A stranger with no clue as to the customs or languages, although he will learn. However, again this will take effort on his part. He'll have power and intelligence but nothing will come easily to him.

All right, I know that a Max Fleischer Superman in the Star Wars Galaxy seems a bit silly, but hey, they did a Godzilla episode in The Clone Wars television series, right?
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Re: Quite Possibly The Worst Star Wars Story Idea Ever

Post by Lord Revan »

you're still not quite getting what me and Simon have been saying.

you should start with something like cop or a officer worker, meaning someone who is for all intents and purposes a normal human with no special abilities. Once you've been able to make a convincing and fun story with those limits in place only then should you ventrue into harder character types to write well.
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Re: Quite Possibly The Worst Star Wars Story Idea Ever

Post by Chris Parr »

Of course I get it. You want a perfectly normal person with no powers or mad skills. The trouble is, such a character just doesn't work, at least as a Rebel. Look at Rebels—every single character has some kind of special power or mad skill. Zeb has alien strength, Hera is an ace pilot, the Mandalorian chick is a demolitions expert and an artist, there's the Jedi and even Ezra is Force sensitive and training.

A normal character who was crazy enough to try and challenge the Empire would be squashed like a bug. Period. And a normal person who accepted his place in the Empire would fare no better. If he wasn't conscripted into the Stormtrooper corps and blown up by Rebels he would most likely lead a very dull life under Imperial protection. Unless the Imperials decide they want his stuff, in which case it's off the Kessel for him, where once again he's a dead man.

So you see, if a characteer is even going to survive in that Galaxy Far Far Away he's either going to need powers or mad skills, and since I'm going to start him off as a kid powers are the way to go. Although not infinite power. Sure he can push and strain beyond his limits to raise tremendous weights, but even then he's only trillions of times stronger—and that's when he's pushing himself to his most extreme! Compare that to the millions of Star Destroyers and quadrillions of soldiers and TIE pilots the Empire has at its disposal. Hell, even with powers my character would still most likely be squashed like a bug! After all, he couldn't survive, say, a Death Star attack!

So kindly quit harping about me writing a normal character in the Star Wars galaxy, because as I've said such a character just doesn't work.
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Re: Quite Possibly The Worst Star Wars Story Idea Ever

Post by Lord Revan »

Chris Parr wrote:Of course I get it. You want a perfectly normal person with no powers or mad skills. The trouble is, such a character just doesn't work, at least as a Rebel. Look at Rebels—every single character has some kind of special power or mad skill. Zeb has alien strength, Hera is an ace pilot, the Mandalorian chick is a demolitions expert and an artist, there's the Jedi and even Ezra is Force sensitive and training.

A normal character who was crazy enough to try and challenge the Empire would be squashed like a bug. Period. And a normal person who accepted his place in the Empire would fare no better. If he wasn't conscripted into the Stormtrooper corps and blown up by Rebels he would most likely lead a very dull life under Imperial protection. Unless the Imperials decide they want his stuff, in which case it's off the Kessel for him, where once again he's a dead man.

So you see, if a characteer is even going to survive in that Galaxy Far Far Away he's either going to need powers or mad skills, and since I'm going to start him off as a kid powers are the way to go. Although not infinite power. Sure he can push and strain beyond his limits to raise tremendous weights, but even then he's only trillions of times stronger—and that's when he's pushing himself to his most extreme! Compare that to the millions of Star Destroyers and quadrillions of soldiers and TIE pilots the Empire has at its disposal. Hell, even with powers my character would still most likely be squashed like a bug! After all, he couldn't survive, say, a Death Star attack!

So kindly quit harping about me writing a normal character in the Star Wars galaxy, because as I've said such a character just doesn't work.
actually the main character of the Medstar Dualogy were for the most part just normal people, talented sure but not abnormally so and they again for the most part survived the books even though it was set on an active battlefield at height of the clonewars.

You see not every story must involve galaxy shaping threats and the Galactic Empire isn't the Forces of Chaos from WH40k so they would for the most part leave the large masses alone as long they weren't actively opposing the Empire.

You could for example do murder mystery set in the SW verse, thus not needing to involve anyone who isn't a normal human (or what ever species they are) in the story.

You can have stories that are "low scale" in SW you have to let go of the idea that every story needs to have a galaxy threating event to work.
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Re: Quite Possibly The Worst Star Wars Story Idea Ever

Post by Purple »

But if your story is "low scale" than what's the point of using SW as a backdrop anyway? The things that make SW unique are starships blowing each other up, jedi and sith fighting for galactic dominance etc. If you are writing a mystery novel set on #GenericPlanet3 where generic human characters solve generic human problems than the setting does not really get to shine or contribute much except for window dressing.
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Re: Quite Possibly The Worst Star Wars Story Idea Ever

Post by Lord Revan »

Purple wrote:But if your story is "low scale" than what's the point of using SW as a backdrop anyway? The things that make SW unique are starships blowing each other up, jedi and sith fighting for galactic dominance etc. If you are writing a mystery novel set on #GenericPlanet3 where generic human characters solve generic human problems than the setting does not really get to shine or contribute much except for window dressing.
oh there's plenty of ways you make that intresting as "generic planet 3" as you call it wouldn't be identical to modern day earth and some unique aspects of SW verse (like the fact that aliens exist) will play a part if you're not dealing with a totally talentless writer.
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Re: Quite Possibly The Worst Star Wars Story Idea Ever

Post by Purple »

Lord Revan wrote:oh there's plenty of ways you make that intresting as "generic planet 3" as you call it wouldn't be identical to modern day earth and some unique aspects of SW verse (like the fact that aliens exist) will play a part if you're not dealing with a totally talentless writer.
That's not the point. It's not about it being or not being modern day earth. It's about it being or not being SW. Every setting, SW included has some very basic and I would even go so far as to say elemental tropes and elements. In the case of SW it is the force, jedi and sith, white clad stormtroopers, humanoid protocol droids that complain a lot etc. in order of importance. If you do not include many of those elements or include only the very least of them than you get to the point where your story might as well be taking place in another universe and it would not lose any of its potency. The setting in essence becomes unimportant as opposed to contributing heavily.
It has become clear to me in the previous days that any attempts at reconciliation and explanation with the community here has failed. I have tried my best. I really have. I pored my heart out trying. But it was all for nothing.

You win. There, I have said it.

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Re: Quite Possibly The Worst Star Wars Story Idea Ever

Post by Joun_Lord »

Chris Parr wrote:Of course I get it. You want a perfectly normal person with no powers or mad skills. The trouble is, such a character just doesn't work, at least as a Rebel. Look at Rebels—every single character has some kind of special power or mad skill. Zeb has alien strength, Hera is an ace pilot, the Mandalorian chick is a demolitions expert and an artist, there's the Jedi and even Ezra is Force sensitive and training.

A normal character who was crazy enough to try and challenge the Empire would be squashed like a bug. Period. And a normal person who accepted his place in the Empire would fare no better. If he wasn't conscripted into the Stormtrooper corps and blown up by Rebels he would most likely lead a very dull life under Imperial protection. Unless the Imperials decide they want his stuff, in which case it's off the Kessel for him, where once again he's a dead man.

So you see, if a characteer is even going to survive in that Galaxy Far Far Away he's either going to need powers or mad skills, and since I'm going to start him off as a kid powers are the way to go. Although not infinite power. Sure he can push and strain beyond his limits to raise tremendous weights, but even then he's only trillions of times stronger—and that's when he's pushing himself to his most extreme! Compare that to the millions of Star Destroyers and quadrillions of soldiers and TIE pilots the Empire has at its disposal. Hell, even with powers my character would still most likely be squashed like a bug! After all, he couldn't survive, say, a Death Star attack!

So kindly quit harping about me writing a normal character in the Star Wars galaxy, because as I've said such a character just doesn't work.
Arguably normal characters work best in Star Wars. A normal character is much more relatable, can serve as a viewpoint character for the reader as they delve into a world of super-humans and galaxy spanning wars.

A normal character who challenges the Empire isn't squashed like a bug either. Look at the Rebellion, other then Fluke Starbucker everyone is normies. No Jedi, no super soldiers, normal people who took up the call and trained to fight the Empire. It would almost be stirring if they weren't a bunch of deluded fools fighting for rich cunts and a corrupt regime viewed through nostalgia goggles but thats neither here nor there.

Even alone a normal character can fight the powa, just won't be going after Star Destroyers. Have the person fight a guerrilla war, learn new skills, train to become a better fighter. Mad skills usually aren't inherent to a person, they must learn them. Get those skills by some old veteran or just through trial and error. That would be infinitely more interesting then a Superman analog dropped in the GFFA.

The wannabe Supes sounds boring. An overpowered guy playing around in an established sandbox doesn't sound intriguing. Sure you say he's not all powerful but then use not surviving a Death Star blast to show how weak he is. Its like saying Mike Tyson fighting a pile of preschoolers is weak because he couldn't survive a round from the main gun of an M1 Abrams.

He can do anything it sounds like including move mountains though with effort. It is hard to write any sort of suspense or drama when you know the character can do anything more or less if they put their back into it because he's always going to put his back into except when he artificially does not.

The character needs to have an established power limit, not "can do anything but only if he really tries I'm super cereal". And that limit should be on the lower scale rather then higher. And no artificial limits or handicaps. Either he can do something or he can't, there is no try. None of that all powerful but doesn't want to use his power thing either. No Mary Sue weaknesses like he's too powerful or too beautiful or anything of the sort.

And probably the best thing to do if you are dead set on creating a Superman analog is to create a universe for em rather then having him run amok in the SW galaxy. Give him a galaxy where he is not constrained by the needs of creating a Star Wars story, a galaxy where its not extremely weak beings and extremely powerful threats with nothing in between but peers to the character. Characters who can equal him in power forcing him to rely on something else beyond brute strength and power to defeat them.

Maybe try a superbeing on contemporary Earth deal but thats already been done to death in every possible way. Still if you can think of something new to this age old tale of Gulliver and the Lilliputs its could make for an interesting read.
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Re: Quite Possibly The Worst Star Wars Story Idea Ever

Post by Chris Parr »

Well, being too strong can be a disadvantage in and of itself. I remember an old episode of "The Jetsons" where George became so ridiculously super strong he couldn't touch anything without breaking it. Which is why I'm saying that my character's power requires effort, with set limits like the old Fleischer Superman. Probably slightly faster than a podracer, able to jump over buildings, raise a few thousand tons, etc. Nothing that can't be duplicated by SW tech or the Force, in other words. Probably nothing new, but then I like those old Superman stories from the Thirties and early Forties.
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Re: Quite Possibly The Worst Star Wars Story Idea Ever

Post by Simon_Jester »

Thing is, the story of an immensely strong man trapped in a fragile world is potentially compelling, but... why set it in Star Wars? There's nothing about Star Wars that lends itself to telling that class of story. So as noted, you'd be better off just rewriting the whole story as a standalone work of fiction.
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Re: Quite Possibly The Worst Star Wars Story Idea Ever

Post by Chris Parr »

Well, what does Godzilla have to do with Star Wars? Why put Godzilla in a Star Wars setting?

My point is, it's a big galaxy. Really big. Big enough for all manner of stories and characters, including a Superman type.
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Re: Quite Possibly The Worst Star Wars Story Idea Ever

Post by Batman »

You don't get it. If the setting is essentially irrelevant background why bother use it?
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Re: Quite Possibly The Worst Star Wars Story Idea Ever

Post by Lord Revan »

that it might be however "why not" isn't really a good reason to set a story there. Because you should ask what does having it set in SW verse instead of your own creation add to the story?

Also powerful characters tend to have influence greater then that physical presence so the existance your superman character would have to known to general public even if the who and where wasn't.
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Re: Quite Possibly The Worst Star Wars Story Idea Ever

Post by Chris Parr »

Well, there is this thing called "Infinities" where all manner of possibilities in the Star Wars Galaxy are realized.
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Re: Quite Possibly The Worst Star Wars Story Idea Ever

Post by Batman »

What's the point of parking it in the Star Wars universe if none of the aspects that 'make' it the Star Wars universe is in any way relevant to the story?
'Next time I let Superman take charge, just hit me. Real hard.'
'You're a princess from a society of immortal warriors. I'm a rich kid with issues. Lots of issues.'
'No. No dating for the Batman. It might cut into your brooding time.'
'Tactically we have multiple objectives. So we need to split into teams.'-'Dibs on the Amazon!'
'Hey, we both have a Martian's phone number on our speed dial. I think I deserve the benefit of the doubt.'
'You know, for a guy with like 50 different kinds of vision, you sure are blind.'
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