That's The Last Straw! Now We Unleash Our Ultimate Weapon!

[Simon_Jester]

Yes. Among other things, I suspect the latinum standard is less vulnerable to manipulation; the Federation has been through multiple war scares in the past few decades and may well be running the buying power of the 'credit' up and down in response to changing circumstances. A non-fiat currency issued by a power that remains relatively neutral in galactic affairs might well have an advantage in such situations.

Well, going by Memory Alpha, the Galaxy class was being designed and built in the 2350s, with the Nebulas starting to be built in the 2360s. It's possible that the Nebula was like the Miranda class of its day, a smaller, more economic ship, but one that can pack just as much punch...

It is certainly the Miranda of its day structurally- nacelle and engineering structures tightened up against the saucer with an auxiliary hull ('roll bar' or 'mission pod') bolted on top. That may not be a coincidence.

Frankly, that's rather implausible, considering how much genetic engineering scares the crap out of the Federation, and that the UFP isn't really communist, we've had long discussions on that matter in the PST forum.

Yeah. I cannot see the Federation deliberately gene-tinkering its citizens to be more compliant. Honestly I can't imagine them drugging or otherwise altering them either. And if they were doing that, you'd think it would come up at some point. Q would berate the Federation for doing it, or the Klingons would point and laugh, or something.

You are conflating the Soviet Union/Chinese style of how communism was practiced, versus the actual definition of communism. Basically, if the government controls the means of production, transportation, forms of communication/media, and so forth, then said society is communist. How many private shipyards have we seen in Star Trek? How many privately owned communication networks/companies have we seen? Are there many transporter stations or shuttle services owned and operated by non-startfleet personnel?

The US Navy controls dockyards, the US Postal Service is one of the dominant modes of communication in our society (and was more dominant in the recent past), and a wide variety of mass transit systems are government operated in the US because transportation is a public service, it is something that is often provided more cheaply and efficiently by a nonprofit agency.

Does all this mean that the US is a communist state? I mean seriously, if you wrote a series of TV shows about the US Navy, the United States might appear a lot more state-controlled than they really are, just because people in the Navy live in a state-controlled bureaucracy.

Why is Commander Troi a commander? That sounds an awful lot like a political officer.

She isn't a commander, not at the beginning of the series.. She's a lieutenant commander, which means she is two levels of rank junior to the captain. Troi isn't promoted to commander until passing a battery of examinations in the seventh season, by which time she's been in Starfleet for a little over a decade.

She's also, arguably, the second-most senior person in the ship's medical branch (and medical branch is important on a Starfleet exploratory vessel). Moreover, she acts as an aide to Picard on important diplomatic missions courtesy of her empathic abilities.

So I think that the ship's senior psychiatrist is justified in holding the rank of lieutenant commander (as opposed to lieutenant or ensign).

Looking at her biography, her rise in rank seems to have been unusually rapid, but no more so than a number of other characters who were promoted rapidly immediately before or after their tenure on the Enterprise-D.

The fact that the UFP is not revolutionary does not mean they are not communist. And they are not brutal in the same sense as the Soviets, but that does not mean they do not deal with political dissent.

Evidence is still lacking.

If those companies were part of a captialist economy why were they paid in commodities rather than currency?

I suspect that rifling through the episodes in question would reveal numerous examples of these individuals accepting payment in credits. They may be accepting payment in latinum, but there might be a number of reasons for a Federation that allows capitalism to be using Ferengi currency in the DS9/VOY era.

Also, there is the question of what exactly the crew of the Enterprise were betting over during their regular poker games if they had no money.

They could have just been playing for fun. How else could you reconcile the fact that both Councilor Trou and Captain Picard have both expressed shock at the very concept of wealth? In most of the modern world, you would be hard pressed to find a society in which educated individuals would have this position.

Well then we have a contradiction. Senior Federation officials both are, and are not, being confused by the idea of wealth, trade, and personal ownership of property. Perhaps it would be sensible to resolve the contradiction in favor of the majority of the episodes seen (i.e. those not part of the first season or two that were most strongly influenced by Roddenbury's personal quirks?)

But those civilian ships are all the equivalent of space greyhound rather than individual ships.

What do you mean? Are you surprised that there are few or no individual personal starships in Star Trek? I'm not- a starship is a fairly complicated piece of machinery, and almost all such ships that we see have large crews, numerous pieces of complicated machinery, and so on.

They may well be items normally owned by large groups or corporate firms, simply because of the expense. Sort of like how there aren't very many skyscrapers or ocean liners or jumbo jets owned by private individuals in real life.

Communications is an unknown, as we don't see many non-Starfleet calls. All this tells us is that Starfleet and the Federation government has their own communication infrastructure for dealing with call between Starfleet personnel. For all we know, there are civilian calls all the time with private companies.

So why did Quark have to illegally use Federation communication systems to broadcast advertisements?

Perhaps because DS9, specifically, had no pre-existing radio or TV stations or their equivalent, and Quark couldn't be bothered to create one? So he hacked into the phone system to play viral ads.

If you're referring to Cassidy Yates, she (mostly) was a legitimate businesswoman. Which doesn't mean she was operating within the Federation.

She did pay her crew in commodities rather than currency, indicating that she was involved in the black market. She also eventually went to prison for supplying the Marquis.

Legitimate businessmen who supply arms to groups that are legally classified as terrorists do tend to wind up in jail, yes.

Also, in what commodities was Yates paying her crew, again?

Also, Kasidy seems to be businesslike, as she owns her own company. So, again, the Federation either arrests non-Federation citizens, or there are companies in Federation space that chart cargo, freight and passengers for profit. They just aren't a crazy obsessed money society like the Ferengi are.

To be fair, the Federation very well might arrest non-Federation citizens caught running contraband to an organization the Federation regards as terrorists. There are capitalist societies that do this- ask the Afghan government if they've had any luck extraditing their citizens back from wrongful detention at Guantanamo Bay...

[WATCH-MAN]

This argumentation is stupid.

If someone wants to argue, that the Federation is communism, he or she should begin with detailing what communism is supposed to be. It does not make sense to continue this debate as long as you can't even agree what communism is.

If someone really thinks, that ...

• ... the the definition of a communist system is that citizens lack wealth, ...
• ... no one is allowed to own property, ...
• ... the purging of people who speak out against the state is what defines communism, ...
• ... the presence of a political officer is necessary or crucial for communism, ...

... he or she should openly say that this is what he or she understands as communism.

If someone really thinks, that the Soviet Union/Chinese society has nothing to do with he actual definition of communism, he or she should openly say that.

If you do not agree what communism means, you can never answer the question if the Federation is communism.

If someone thinks that communism means that people who speak out against the state have to be executed, he or she can not come to the conclusion that the Federation is communism as such events were never shown to be done by the Federation, while another one may think, that this is not necessary for a society to be communism so that the absence of such executions does not allow the conclusion that the Federation is not communism.

Someone may think that the fact that we have never seen by humans privately owned spaceships means that the Federation is communism while another one may object that it does not make a society communism only because this society does not allow that everyone can have access to potentially dangerous vessels.

[biostem]

The US Navy controls dockyards, the US Postal Service is one of the dominant modes of communication in our society (and was more dominant in the recent past), and a wide variety of mass transit systems are government operated in the US because transportation is a public service, it is something that is often provided more cheaply and efficiently by a nonprofit agency.

Does all this mean that the US is a communist state? I mean seriously, if you wrote a series of TV shows about the US Navy, the United States might appear a lot more state-controlled than they really are, just because people in the Navy live in a state-controlled bureaucracy.

Doe the US Navy control all ports/dock yards? Is the US Navy the only ones that operate sea-going vessels? Are there private ship manufacturers? Do I need to book passage with the US navy to get anywhere?

MUST I ship via the USPS, or are there privately-owned alternatives? Must I take government controlled transportation to get anywhere? Do I have to watch government controlled TV or listen to state radio?

We never see any "experts" in ST that are from the Earth, but were educated in some non-Federation/non-Starfleet school. There are no private contractors, no bidding for ship designs, and no alternative to Starfleet. Even if you dissolved currency, those that owned property or factories would still be able to exert control.

[FaxModem1]

Prove that civilians are booking passage with Starfleet to get to locations. Especially as I have shown above that there are civilian freighters and transports that are from Federation space.

Jake Sisko went to(will go to, might be going to) the Paddington school in New Zealand to become a better writer. This is not a Federation controlled school, it seems, but a very prestigious school for writers. The Daystrom institute also seems to be a science organization that is independent of Starfleet/the Federation, but is within Federation space.

[Lord Revan]

Our main problem with this is that apart from DS9 we don't encounter civilians that much, that said it's sometimes implied that Vulcan Science Academy is independent from Starfleet as well (and obviously within Federation space).

[WATCH-MAN]

The Regular lab and the on the Genesis project working scientists were not from Starfleet - they merely cooperated with Starfleet as they needed it to find a planet where they could test Genesis. But when Chekov demanded Genesis to be transferred to the Reliant for immediate testing at Ceti Alpha VI, Dr. Carol Marcus objected, that this demand is completely irregular as Genesis is a civilian project under her control.

Dr. Nel Apgar, who developed the Krieger wave converter, was not from Starfleet. His research was merely supported by the Federation.

The scientists - as Dr. Farallon - who were working on the Particle Fountain Project, were not from Starfleet.

The scientists - as Dr. Sara Kingsley - who were working at the Darwin Genetic Research Station on the planet Gagarin IV, were not from Starfleet.

Dr. Toby Russell, who specialized in neurogenetic research and worked for some time at the Adelman Neurological Institute, was not from Starfleet.

Dr. Tolian Soran, who worked for a short time in the Amargosa observatory, was not from Starfleet.

The Trills Lenara Kahn, Hanor Pren and Bejal Otner, who investigated methods creating an artificial wormhole, were not from Starfleet.

Keiko O'Brien, a botanist, was not from Starfleet - although she worked for some time on the Starfleet ship USS Enterprise.

Dr. Leah Susan Brahms was a member of the Theoretical Propulsion Group and a graduate of the Daystrom Institute of Technology. Although she seemed to work for or with Starfleet, she wasn't a member of Starfleet.

Professor Gideon Seyetik although working with Starfleet, was not a member of Starfleet. The Starfleet ship USS Prometheus and its crew was even assigned to assist him.

Richard Galen, the most renowned Federation archaeologist of the 24th century, was not a member of Starfleet - although he taught for some time at the Starfleet Academy. And he had his own warp-capable shuttle.

[Simon_Jester]

Doe the US Navy control all ports/dock yards? Is the US Navy the only ones that operate sea-going vessels? Are there private ship manufacturers? Do I need to book passage with the US navy to get anywhere?

MUST I ship via the USPS, or are there privately-owned alternatives? Must I take government controlled transportation to get anywhere? Do I have to watch government controlled TV or listen to state radio?

There is no particularly compelling evidence in Star Trek that the Federation does any of these things. Sure, most of the ships we see are government owned, and most of the places we see are government-run military bases, but that doesn't prove anything in a series of shows that are following the adventures of the crews of warships and the operators of a space station that was always intended in large part as a forward military base.

We never see any "experts" in ST that are from the Earth, but were educated in some non-Federation/non-Starfleet school.

We see plenty of technical experts who don't make a big point out of where they went to school. At most, you've proved that the Federation has a strong public school and university system which leaves only a small (non-conspicuous) percent of the population seeking out private schools.

There are no private contractors, no bidding for ship designs, and no alternative to Starfleet.

There's no evidence for any of this either as far as I can tell.

Negatives are hard to prove and you are using a LOT of negatives here.

[FaxModem1]

Watched the episode 'Conspiracy'. It seems the Federation does contract out mining work, as Dytalix B was mined, in addition to other planets, by the Dytalix Mining Company on behalf of the UFP. This, along with Kasidy's shipping company and the Bank of Bolias, gives us at least three companies that operate in Federation space. A bit odd for a supposedly communist government that ensures that everything is controlled by the state.

EDIT: Fixed links

[The Romulan Republic]

I don't know about the Bank of Bolias, but aren't the Bolians a species in Star Trek? And since Star Trek typically has whole species pretty much under one government, could the bank of Bolias be run by the Bolian planetary government or some such?

[Lord Revan]

I don't know about the Bank of Bolias, but aren't the Bolians a species in Star Trek? And since Star Trek typically has whole species pretty much under one government, could the bank of Bolias be run by the Bolian planetary government or some such?

Bolians are a species in fact but they're also a federation member.

[FaxModem1]

The Bank of Bolias could be a planetary government bank, but it could also be a private company that's distinguished enough to have the title. If nothing else, the UFP embraces the diversity and differences of each culture it has, and keeps their differences.

The Bolian 'hat', compared to Klingon's honor or Vulcan logic, seems to be being delicate, and according to Janeway ,how developed their plumbing is.

So, without any other knowledge on them, but going by Memory Beta(which uses novels, so it may be considered non-canon), the Bank of Bolias is worthy enough that a Ferengi like Quark doesn't mind depositing his latinium accounts into it, it has online accounts that can be hacked by the Orion Syndicate for something as simple as a few mobsters wanting it to pay for their meal, and that it is also considered heavily bureaucratic by others.: link

[Purple]

Maybe the federation is in fact a federation and thus each member has their own social and political system. It would make since since imposing a common narrative would be very much against their idealism.

[The Romulan Republic]

It does seem to be that each member has its own cultural quirks. Though Earth, at least, seems to be directly under the control of the Federation government (at least, I don't recall their being anything about a separate Earth government, and the Federation has a lot of their infrastructure/leadership on Earth).

[Simon_Jester]

Although there isn't a LOT of stuff actually set on Earth that would deal with such things. When the protagonists visit Earth it's usually in the planet's capacity as the Federation capital.

Sort of like how you could have a show about the experiences of people in the navy (I don't know, JAG) that has the protagonists occasionally visit Washington, D.C. to go to the Pentagon or to talk to a Congressman or whatever. And you wouldn't necessarily see a lot of unambiguous evidence for the District of Columbia having its own independent government that doesn't take direct orders from the federal government.

But just because you'd spend almost all your time listening to federal politicians and Navy admirals on the show, doesn't mean that DC is being deliberately portrayed as a military dictatorship.

[Crazedwraith]

In Home Front/Paradise Lost the Federation President is depicted as deciding things for Earth. I believe the writer's said that they thought there was/should have been an Earth President as well but it would have bogged the episode down too much to include him as well as the Fed President.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Hmm, that makes me think that EArth is the Federation's equivalent of Washington, DC. Limited self-government but much less so than, say, Vulcan or Andor.

[WATCH-MAN]

In Home Front/Paradise Lost the Federation President is depicted as deciding things for Earth.

Which things?

A state of emergency?

The deployment of Starfleet?

Maybe these things - regardless on which Federation planet - can only be ordered by the Federation president.

Or is it plausible that in a federation a state governor can declare a state of emergency AND deploy federal military forces?

[FedRebel]

You know, just as an aside, it's amazing to me that after wars with the Klingons, Romulans, Orions, Cardasians, the Borg and the Dominion that the Federation still believes it can maintain the peace by their peacenik ways. I mean, as soon as the enemy is neutralized, sometimes by some "deus ex machina", they go right back to their old "peace and love" ideal as if they don't know how naïve that is!

That's the creative narrative Roddenberry wants though, exploration before war, peace over military mentality.

In universe: Look at the US, America clings to this WW2 fantasy that once they topple an fascist regime, a given region automatically stabilizes into a secular democratic republic that's America Jr. Likewise the Federation clings to a fantasy that once a "no do well" is either eliminated or 'redeemed' and a piece of paper is drafted, it's all sunshine and roses. In reality the treaty to end the Cardassia war in many ways set the foundation for the Dominion War, 8472 is still a wild card with proven infiltration capability, etc.

It's one of the reasons why I love the versus debate, the UFP really needs it's ass handed to it, their Chamberlain-ian philosophy ceding territory to an orders of magnitude greater power and actually codifying their downfall when said power decides to sweep across the Quadrant. The Federation has gone from a 'cool' look at the future into an unbearable mary sue. The Imperial jack boot is a necessary prescription.

Well, maybe in the alternate Trek things are different. Maybe there they know the only way to maintain peace is with a strong Starfleet that is actually willing to fight. I can only hope so, anyway.

I doubt it, Admiral Marcus embodied the more militant mindset and he got vilified heavily, it's quite likely that in JJverse the Marcus incident forces the Federation to take a more hippie perspective. Unless later nuTrek's force a more apparent middle ground, nuTrek Picard is going to wear a poncho and smell of hemp.

[FaxModem1]

That's the creative narrative Roddenberry wants though, exploration before war, peace over military mentality.

In universe: Look at the US, America clings to this WW2 fantasy that once they topple an fascist regime, a given region automatically stabilizes into a secular democratic republic that's America Jr. Likewise the Federation clings to a fantasy that once a "no do well" is either eliminated or 'redeemed' and a piece of paper is drafted, it's all sunshine and roses. In reality the treaty to end the Cardassia war in many ways set the foundation for the Dominion War, 8472 is still a wild card with proven infiltration capability, etc.

It's one of the reasons why I love the versus debate, the UFP really needs it's ass handed to it, their Chamberlain-ian philosophy ceding territory to an orders of magnitude greater power and actually codifying their downfall when said power decides to sweep across the Quadrant. The Federation has gone from a 'cool' look at the future into an unbearable mary sue. The Imperial jack boot is a necessary prescription.

The UFP did get its 'ass handed to it', twice, the Dominion War and the attacks by the Borg. Note how the UFP acts in season 1 and 2 of TNG, and contrast it with the final season of Voyager. Starfleet learned a lot of lessons, and the UFP still stayed a peace loving society, but one that still kept their guard up in case of something happening.

This is analogous to saying that you would love to see the Soviet Union take on King Arthur's Camelot, because they try and make things better after a conflict and live honorably.

[Adam Reynolds]

That's the creative narrative Roddenberry wants though, exploration before war, peace over military mentality.

In terms of going into space, it is a laudable notion, one that NASA believes in. Though not one likely to survive in the face of hostile alien threats as in Star Trek.

In universe: Look at the US, America clings to this WW2 fantasy that once they topple an fascist regime, a given region automatically stabilizes into a secular democratic republic that's America Jr. Likewise the Federation clings to a fantasy that once a "no do well" is either eliminated or 'redeemed' and a piece of paper is drafted, it's all sunshine and roses. In reality the treaty to end the Cardassia war in many ways set the foundation for the Dominion War, 8472 is still a wild card with proven infiltration capability, etc.

As you point out, that element is actually extremely realistic. Everyone believes that once the current threat is taken care of, there won't be a new one to replace it. Look at the 1990s after the Cold War, no one considered the threat that Muslim extremists would become. While some saw it coming, that America's policies were bound to backfire, most just ignored it until 9/11.

It's one of the reasons why I love the versus debate, the UFP really needs it's ass handed to it, their Chamberlain-ian philosophy ceding territory to an orders of magnitude greater power and actually codifying their downfall when said power decides to sweep across the Quadrant. The Federation has gone from a 'cool' look at the future into an unbearable mary sue. The Imperial jack boot is a necessary prescription.

In Chamberlain's defense, he was not entirely unjustified in waiting. the UK was in no position in 1938 to go to war. It was Chamberlain rather than Churchill who built up the British military. He realized that the peace would not be likely to last. This is not the same thing as the Federation's level of stupidity.

[Simon_Jester]

That's the creative narrative Roddenberry wants though, exploration before war, peace over military mentality.

In universe: Look at the US, America clings to this WW2 fantasy that once they topple an fascist regime, a given region automatically stabilizes into a secular democratic republic that's America Jr. Likewise the Federation clings to a fantasy that once a "no do well" is either eliminated or 'redeemed' and a piece of paper is drafted, it's all sunshine and roses. In reality the treaty to end the Cardassia war in many ways set the foundation for the Dominion War, 8472 is still a wild card with proven infiltration capability, etc.

Well, it actually worked rather well for them so far. I mean, you can compare this to the very aggressive Terran Empire that tried to violently subdue all its foes in the Mirror Universe... and that did NOT end nearly as well.

The Federation's greatest enemy of the TOS era is now at worst a weaker neutral and at best an ally. The Cardassians were able to contract with an outside power for reinforcements, but were ultimately defeated precisely because the Federation was taking time to reach a useful understanding with all sorts of entities and cultures outside its own immediate circle (the Bajorans and the Founders).

Species 8472 remains a threat- but the Federation being more violent and brutish wouldn't have changed that, because Species 8472 would still have overwhelming firepower and shapeshifting abilities.

It's one of the reasons why I love the versus debate, the UFP really needs it's ass handed to it, their Chamberlain-ian philosophy ceding territory to an orders of magnitude greater power and actually codifying their downfall when said power decides to sweep across the Quadrant.

...Uh, what?

I doubt it, Admiral Marcus embodied the more militant mindset and he got vilified heavily, it's quite likely that in JJverse the Marcus incident forces the Federation to take a more hippie perspective. Unless later nuTrek's force a more apparent middle ground, nuTrek Picard is going to wear a poncho and smell of hemp.

Bluntly, Marcus was a paranoid thug with dictatorial tendencies, and Starfleet was well rid of him. I'm entirely on board with that. Starfleet isn't just the "make shit blow up" arm of the Federation, and shouldn't be portrayed that way.

That's the creative narrative Roddenberry wants though, exploration before war, peace over military mentality.

In terms of going into space, it is a laudable notion, one that NASA believes in. Though not one likely to survive in the face of hostile alien threats as in Star Trek.

I'm not so sure.

Basically, ever since the Industrial Revolution, the most reliable way to preserve the security of your nation is to have a strong industrial, technological, and economic base, to have healthy networks of allies, to understand the culture of your rivals well enough that you can prepare effectively for their actions, and so on.

Being a ruthless warmonger just plain doesn't work out very well in the modern era- it leads to 'thousand year Reichs' that survive for twelve years.

So I think there's a lot to be said for a Federation-like notion that the first priority of a spacefaring civilization is peaceful colonization, diplomacy, and scientific discovery. Because those come a lot closer to representing the true sources of a technological civilization's strength. Being super-badass and threatening like the Klingons... nobody's gotten a very good deal out of being a warrior race like that since the invention of gunpowder, to say the least.

[Replicant]

I don't know about the Bank of Bolias, but aren't the Bolians a species in Star Trek? And since Star Trek typically has whole species pretty much under one government, could the bank of Bolias be run by the Bolian planetary government or some such?

NBD, before it was bought out by Citibank was the National Bank of Detroit, it changed its name to NBD when it started operating outside the Detroit area.

Just because the name was National Bank of Detroit do we assume the bank was owned by the city? Banks all over this country are named after the city they are located in and it in no way means that the bank is owned by the local government.

[Elheru Aran]

Businesses can pretty much name themselves whatever they want-- with the caveat that they should avoid false representation. 'National Bank of Detroit', for example, would come under some very intense scrutiny if it started saying it represented the financial sector of the city of Detroit, or even the nation itself. 'Bank of America' isn't the nation's financial institution.

It can be fairly contextual, though. In circumstances where we are dealing with world governments such as seems to be the norm in Trek, it's possible they have financial institutions backed by those world governments. Or it could be that the Bank of Bolias is a private corporation which someone happened to be liaising with in that particular episode (I'm not familiar with the context). It's somewhat of a fool's errand to try and contextualize stuff like that without more specific knowledge...

[FaxModem1]

We never see the Bank of Bolias, but in "Honor Among Thieves", a few mobsters(Orion Syndicate) jack into a computer console to have the bank pay for their meal, which the Bank doesn't take kindly to and electrocutes the man hooked up to the terminal.

In "Who Mourns for Morn?", it was where Morn deposited the stolen gold from the heist(minus the latinum, which was in his second stomach), for a decade, with Quark being the executor of Morn's estate after his supposed death.

But, it does establish a bank within Federation space, whether it is a national bank for Bolias or a private corporation, which means that there must be some form of credit unions, savings and deposits, if not loans, in the UFP.