What if Picard took over the Academy?(RAR)

[Tribble]

actually IIRC the Borg had already encountered humans (mainly the crew of the Raven) before the J-25 incident.

True, though that didn't prompt an invasion. The next encounter with the Borg was the ship which assimilated/destroyed several Federation/Romulan outposts along the Neutral Zone, but it left without a trace rather than launch an attack. IMO the Borg weren't really interested in the Federation before J-25, but having the E-D show up out of nowhere, blast several holes in the Cube then disappear right before it could be assimilated certainly would have caught their attention. Not to mention that they assimilated information from the E-D's computer, which likely contained a lot more than the Rvaen or the outposts along the neutral zone. And Guinan stated that the timeline had been altered and the Federation had now officially encountered the Borg far sooner than they should have.

as for Starfleet effectiveness you got remember that Wolf 359 did more to the federation then remove 39 ships and their crews for the avaible pool, it shocked the federation to its very core. In the early TNG the federation had grown complecent and arrogant in that they would never encounter an enemy that couldn't beat without resorting to aggression.

The Borg changed that as the collective cannot be reasoned with and aggressive resistance is the only practical option if you want to stay unassimilated.

Wolf 359 didn't just change how starships were designed and built, also starfleet tactics and strategy changed signifigantly, where as in season 2 Riker dismissed combat training as irrelevant essentially, I can't see any starfleet officer saying the same thing after Wolf 359 or at least not with same smug superiorty that implied that Starfleet had evolved beyond needing combat training.

I agree. What I'm curious about is how events might have played out had "Q-Who" and "BOBW" not occurred. Obviously their ships/strategy/tactics would be a lot less developed, though perhaps they wouldn't have been quite as undermanned as several episodes hinted post Wolf-359 Starfleet to be. How would this have impacted the Cardassian War? How would it have impacted their relationship with the Klingons and Romulans? If the wormhole is discovered and travel was allowed, how would the Dominion react? Would they attack far sooner because the Feds were nowhere near as threatening, or would they put it off because of that? Would more Galaxy-class ships be sent out, instead of remaining home for defense?

[Prometheus Unbound]

And Guinan stated that the timeline had been altered and the Federation had now officially encountered the Borg far sooner than they should have.

Well, she didn't say the world "timeline". She just said "Q set a series of events in place bringing your contact with the Borg far sooner than it should have."

I just took that to mean that had he left well enough alone, they'd encounter them eventually but now it'll be much sooner than if he hadn't. Not that they were destined to meet them later on or that history had been changed.

[Lord Revan]

actually IIRC the Borg had already encountered humans (mainly the crew of the Raven) before the J-25 incident.

True, though that didn't prompt an invasion. The next encounter with the Borg was the ship which assimilated/destroyed several Federation/Romulan outposts along the Neutral Zone, but it left without a trace rather than launch an attack. IMO the Borg weren't really interested in the Federation before J-25, but having the E-D show up out of nowhere, blast several holes in the Cube then disappear right before it could be assimilated certainly would have caught their attention. Not to mention that they assimilated information from the E-D's computer, which likely contained a lot more than the Rvaen or the outposts along the neutral zone. And Guinan stated that the timeline had been altered and the Federation had now officially encountered the Borg far sooner than they should have.

As it was stated by others I too took it as more "you're not ready for this" then "in the correct timeline this should have happend later"

as for Starfleet effectiveness you got remember that Wolf 359 did more to the federation then remove 39 ships and their crews for the avaible pool, it shocked the federation to its very core. In the early TNG the federation had grown complecent and arrogant in that they would never encounter an enemy that couldn't beat without resorting to aggression.

The Borg changed that as the collective cannot be reasoned with and aggressive resistance is the only practical option if you want to stay unassimilated.

Wolf 359 didn't just change how starships were designed and built, also starfleet tactics and strategy changed signifigantly, where as in season 2 Riker dismissed combat training as irrelevant essentially, I can't see any starfleet officer saying the same thing after Wolf 359 or at least not with same smug superiorty that implied that Starfleet had evolved beyond needing combat training.

I agree. What I'm curious about is how events might have played out had "Q-Who" and "BOBW" not occurred. Obviously their ships/strategy/tactics would be a lot less developed, though perhaps they wouldn't have been quite as undermanned as several episodes hinted post Wolf-359 Starfleet to be. How would this have impacted the Cardassian War? How would it have impacted their relationship with the Klingons and Romulans? If the wormhole is discovered and travel was allowed, how would the Dominion react? Would they attack far sooner because the Feds were nowhere near as threatening, or would they put it off because of that? Would more Galaxy-class ships be sent out, instead of remaining home for defense?

While Cardassian War probably ends however I suspect that the Federation will take much clearer territory loss opposed to the ambigious swap of systems, also suspect that Liberation of Bajor won't happen as this Federation will be ironically less likely do things that could reignite the conflict with the Cardassian Union, basically the pre-wolf 359 TNG Federation was almost ashamed for it's role as one the major powers of the Alpha quadrant (and Beta Quadrant) and thus was unwilling to throw its weight around even for the good cause if it meant pissing off someone else.

I also suspect that Klingon Empire would break the Khitomer accords like it in the prime-verse though getting them back into the side of the Federation might prove harder due to this Federation being pacifist to fault, basically before Wolf 359 the doves in the federation council overpowered and drowned out the hawks in terms on political power and influence for the most part, where as post wolf 359 the council was more balanced about its rulings.

[Tribble]

Well, she didn't say the world "timeline". She just said "Q set a series of events in place bringing your contact with the Borg far sooner than it should have."

I just took that to mean that had he left well enough alone, they'd encounter them eventually but now it'll be much sooner than if he hadn't. Not that they were destined to meet them later on or that history had been changed.

True, but that doesn't alter my point. I was pointing out that were it not for Q sending the E-D to J-25, the Borg would not have invaded when they did. Remember that they had already attacked Federation and Romulan territory, but apparently decided that the Federation and Romulans weren't worth the effort of assimilating and left. The events at J-25 was what changed their mind.

As it was stated by others I too took it as more "you're not ready for this" then "in the correct timeline this should have happend later"

True, though less is said about why the Federation wasn't prepared. If Q hadn't thrown the E-D over to J-25, the Federation would have had years, perhaps even decades longer before the Borg were "officially" encountered. This might have led to them learning more about the Borg as they expanded into that area of space. They might have encountered more destroyed civilizations, refugees, or others who have run into the Borg, and had a more clear picture of what they were about. They might have been better prepared when the first official encounter did occur. Instead of "let's try diplomacy and do nothing until the Borg rip chunks out of our ship" their response might be "fire all weapons" and/or "get the fuck out of here!"

Or perhaps the Federation might have even be able to figure out how to effectively deal with them. Guinan felt that doing so was possible, but that the Federation ready to do so right at that moment. Perhaps given the extra time they could have figured out something.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Something just struck me. The Borg destroyed the El-Aurian's world before Generations ahppened, so surely the Federation would have been at least aware of them before Q Who?

Ah, hold on, that explains why the Hansen's were off chasing rumours rather than having a better idea of what they were heading for.

[Lord Revan]

I'm sure that Federation of in some sense aware that Borg Collective existed, but they probably had only vague rumors and hearsay as to what Borg were actualy capable of it wouldn't surprise if the El-Aurian descriptions on the Borg were actually rather vague and varied so much that you couldn't tell what was hard fact and what was fiction probably caused by terror of the Borg.

[Elheru Aran]

Given that there appears to be a certain amount of interstellar trade among various warp-capable planets-- not just immigration, trade usually happens *before* immigration-- it's reasonable to assume that there were rumours floating around of a powerful enemy in the distant stars wiping out planets. So it's unlikely that the Federation would have been overly concerned, although they would probably have tacitly encouraged a certain amount of intelligence gathering expeditions just on general principles.

[Terralthra]

While Cardassian War probably ends however I suspect that the Federation will take much clearer territory loss opposed to the ambigious swap of systems, also suspect that Liberation of Bajor won't happen as this Federation will be ironically less likely do things that could reignite the conflict with the Cardassian Union, basically the pre-wolf 359 TNG Federation was almost ashamed for it's role as one the major powers of the Alpha quadrant (and Beta Quadrant) and thus was unwilling to throw its weight around even for the good cause if it meant pissing off someone else.

The Federation-Cardassian War which resulted in the DMZ, territorial swap, Bajoran occupation ending, and the Maquis coming into existence ended well before the period during which Picard was in command of the Enterprise. The truce came in the same year as Wolf 359, and hostilities had died down before that. I don't see the change from the J-25 incident not occurring as altering that much.

[Tribble]

Also, if Picard ran the academy, you can kiss anything remotely related to combat training goodbye. Why have cadets worry about starship tactics when they can discuss poetry, or go into archaeology, or botany? This was the guy who intensely disliked having a training exercise even after the Borg became a threat. And his strategies in most battles seemed to be "let them shoot us until our shields drop, then respond with minimal force".

[The Romulan Republic]

Somehow I doubt the head of the Academy has the authority to completely demilitarize Starfleet Academy. Presumably they have superiors who have some say in the ciriculum.

And you're really misrepresenting Picard when you milk the old "stupid pacifist" cliche. Picard has engaged in combat, and will again if he feels its necessary.

[Lord Revan]

Picard is an idealistic, he prefers to talk things over then to shoot but he's not so pacifistic that he demilitarize starfleet or anything that stupid, also while slightly off-topic Picard also grew when came to this matter during the run of TNG season 1 Picard as alot less willing to use the force then season 7 PIcard.

And I'm sure that while the Headmaster of Starfleet Academy has some influence as to what's being teached (probably on the lines of what's being focused on) I'm pretty sure that the Federation Council (thru Starfleet HQ) has the final say on what's being teached.

[Tribble]

Yes, Picard matured as time went on, and he became much better at both military tactics, diplomacy... and even dealing with his mortal nemesis, children. The problem is that this is early TNG Picard we are talking about here, and at this time he was still an arrogant sanctimonious asshole. While it's true that Picard wouldn't completely demilitarize Starfleet Academy his attitude of "humans are like angels and gods" "we're ready for everything," and "only defend yourself after you've been shot several times" etc would not help matters.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Stupid as it might be to find examples from Nemesis, I think the changes to Picard's attitude can be seen in his speech at the wedding. When he talks about a starship captain's life being filed with solemn duty, his first example is "I have commanded men in battle."

[Borgholio]

Stupid as it might be to find examples from Nemesis, I think the changes to Picard's attitude can be seen in his speech at the wedding. When he talks about a starship captain's life being filed with solemn duty, his first example is "I have commanded men in battle."

Honestly I can't recall any real serious combat situations that Picard had to deal with in his past aside from the Battle of Maxia. It could be that, despite being a captain for many years, he was basically still a combat rookie and had no idea what it was really about. It wasn't until he had gone through the many conflicts of TNG and several wars that he became a veteran and realized that people died because of his inaction in the past.

[Prometheus Unbound]

Stupid as it might be to find examples from Nemesis, I think the changes to Picard's attitude can be seen in his speech at the wedding. When he talks about a starship captain's life being filed with solemn duty, his first example is "I have commanded men in battle."

Honestly I can't recall any real serious combat situations that Picard had to deal with in his past aside from the Battle of Maxia. It could be that, despite being a captain for many years, he was basically still a combat rookie and had no idea what it was really about. It wasn't until he had gone through the many conflicts of TNG and several wars that he became a veteran and realized that people died because of his inaction in the past.

Well there was Q Who, the first half of the first half of the best of both worlds... led security teams in STFC (he said led men in battle afterall)... but no sadly TNG didn't really have the budget for it.

[Ziggy Stardust]

Picard was in at least three battles during his time on the Stargazer, from a quick scan of his Memory Alpha page.