Star Wars: Rebels

[Rogue 9]

So it just occurred to me that apart from bartering with Lando, those shield generators they stole in Siege of Lothal were pointless. They were never unloaded from the stolen shuttle, and even if they were, they were on Phoenix Home when it was destroyed.

[Rogue 9]

Ghetto edit: Phoenix Squadron has five fighters left, as we can see in the opening scene of The Lost Commanders. Aside from the fact that we initially saw eight before Vader destroyed four (in the chaos there could have been another off screen, after all, so that's not that big a deal), how is a flotilla of Corvettes maintaining them without carrier capability?

[Lord Revan]

Don't some versions of the corvette have a hangar, so while slow and inefficient they have fighters come in 1 by 1 and maintain them that way.

[The Romulan Republic]

As I recall, Obi-wan docks a fighter in Bail Organa's corvette in Revenge of the Sith.

[RogueIce]

So Rex and the others removed their control chips...but they're the only ones amongst the unspecified but presumably large number of clones to do so?
This doesn't work with the movies or TCW. They should've left it at ordinary brainwashing. Some individuals being able to shake that makes sense.

Kanan says the Clones claimed the chips made them do it. So presumably they became aware of them after, and this says nothing about whether or not they subsequently removed them.

Heck, nothing in the episode says when Rex and crew removed theirs. His statement is vague on that point. All he says is that those three didn't betray "their" Jedi, but consider:

Rex's Jedi was Anakin.
Wolffe's Jedi was Plo Koon (shot down by pilots, not his ground troopers)
Gregor didn't have a Jedi anyway, so far as we know

For all we know, Wolffe's distrust and paranoia toward the Jedi is lingering psychological damage from the Order 66 implementation.

[SAMAS]

I think Gregor was in Obi-Wan's force.

[Lord Revan]

I think Gregor was in Obi-Wan's force.

IIRC he was "independent" in that he was commando who had been presumed dead and left behind so he might not technically be part of any Jedi's forces.

[Rogue 9]

Don't some versions of the corvette have a hangar, so while slow and inefficient they have fighters come in 1 by 1 and maintain them that way.

It doesn't help the pilots to just bring them one at a time into a hangar to refuel. You can't live for days on end in the cockpit of a fighter. They've got to have downtime. If there are more fighters than hangar space for them, you will suffer attrition.

[Batman]

Who says they have to live in their fighters? Bring them in, let them debark, have the fighters tractored along or fly on some exoitc technology like I dunno, an autopilot?

[RogueIce]

It's three corvettes for five fighters. So three possible hangers like what we saw in Ep3. And conceivably, if need be, they can dock sort like the Ghost has, and use tractor beams or whatever to move them into position. Probably not efficient but it might work.

Anyway, we don't know how long the time between SoL and TLC is. Sabine changed the color of her hair but that wouldn't take more than a few hours at most, I imagine. So it might not be a pressing issue (yet) and I imagine they'll get the location of a base by the end of the next episode, eliminating the problem entirely.

[The Romulan Republic]

I was sure the fleet in Siege of Lothal had more than three corvettes.

[Rogue 9]

It did; there were five. We only saw three in the opening for The Lost Commanders. The other two are either off on other business or have been destroyed in the interim (unlikely since it would have been mentioned). In fact, likely Commander Sato has them somewhere, since he was communicating by hologram when the Ghost could easily have docked with the corvette he was on instead if he were with the fleet.

[RogueIce]

It did; there were five. We only saw three in the opening for The Lost Commanders. The other two are either off on other business or have been destroyed in the interim (unlikely since it would have been mentioned). In fact, likely Commander Sato has them somewhere, since he was communicating by hologram when the Ghost could easily have docked with the corvette he was on instead if he were with the fleet.

In that case, they'd have one corvette for each A-wing, and the current lack is temporary. So not really an issue.

[Abacus]

The whole idea that the clone army executed Order 66 because of "control chips" in their heads is stupid. They followed the order because they were bred to be obedient and they were following the direct order of the ruler of the Republic. It's not a soldier's duty to normally question an order, especially if said soldier is bred specifically for war and obedience. This makes the clones that much more tragic, in that they made such good friends among the Jedi, but ultimately killed them -- and it's even made clear that there were clones that willingly disobeyed Order 66. Vader was sent to deal with them, if you all recall.

[Adam Reynolds]

The whole idea that the clone army executed Order 66 because of "control chips" in their heads is stupid. They followed the order because they were bred to be obedient and they were following the direct order of the ruler of the Republic. It's not a soldier's duty to normally question an order, especially if said soldier is bred specifically for war and obedience. This makes the clones that much more tragic, in that they made such good friends among the Jedi, but ultimately killed them -- and it's even made clear that there were clones that willingly disobeyed Order 66. Vader was sent to deal with them, if you all recall.

Agreed. It makes it more tragic. More than any plot issues that is enough of a reason to ignore it.

I liked a bit in the novelization of ROTS that went into this issue: If you don't remember from the movie, Obi-Wan had dropped his lightsaber while chasing Grievous and Cody had just returned it to him.

"It is time," the holoscam said, "Execute Order Sixty-Six"

Cody responded as he had been trained since before he'd ever awakened in his creche school. "It will be done, my lord"

The holoscan vanished. Cody stuck the comlink back into its concealed recess and frowned down towards where Kenobi rode his dragonmount into selflessly heroic battle.

Cody was a clone. He would execute the order faithfully, without hesitation or regret. But he was also human enough to mutter glumly, "Would it have been too much to ask for the order to have come through before I gave him back the bloody lightsaber ...?

[Abacus]

Haha, yeah, that was one of my favorite clone moments. Cody was a great Clone Commander.

[NecronLord]

Except y'know, how the order was delivered by a random disfigured dude. Who was addressed by a mysterious title. Who happened to be known to some people as the head of state of the enemy faction.

[SAMAS]

Except y'know, how the order was delivered by a random disfigured dude. Who was addressed by a mysterious title. Who happened to be known to some people as the head of state of the enemy faction.

This is a good point. Remember, Tup's chip malfuntioned, which is why he acted so strange when carrying it out. To me, Order 66 always felt like a memenomic(sp?) command rather than "Your commander is now a bad guy. Don't ask questions, shoot him!"

[Adam Reynolds]

Except y'know, how the order was delivered by a random disfigured dude. Who was addressed by a mysterious title. Who happened to be known to some people as the head of state of the enemy faction.

What difference did it make to clones if he was known as the head of the CIS? He was still at the top of their legal chain of command. As for the My Lord comment, who knows why that was attached? It doesn't require a control chip that makes the Jedi several times more foolish than they were shown to be previously.

To me it always made more sense as a legal and political issue. Palpatine was granted additional powers as commander in chief as a result of the Battle of Coruscant(why he instigated it). With said powers, it put him in the legal power to give Order 66. The Jedi never really considered the fact that a Sith Lord would have that level of political power and so they never saw it coming. Even though Dooku told them directly.

[Lord Revan]

unless the Senate totally screwed the pootch, I suspect that they would kind of make being the head of the enemy to Republic illegal and an act of treason, thus making Palpatine a traitor to the Republic (unless it's been retconned Palpatine's authority over the Clone Army was due being the supreme chancellor, not personal authority) and most sane nations make orders from a traitor to be illegal orders.

[Abacus]

Except y'know, how the order was delivered by a random disfigured dude. Who was addressed by a mysterious title. Who happened to be known to some people as the head of state of the enemy faction.

The signal the order was given over was a priority, executive one -- from the Supreme Chancellor's office and only used by the Supreme Chancellor. Why it would be anyone other than the Supreme Chancellor on that particular coded channel wouldn't make sense to a clone. But if that isn't a good enough reason for you, then how about the idea that the clones always knew what Palpatine looked like? It's mentioned in various sources that the Palpatine we knew pre-Windu Encounter was a glamour created with Sith powers to make him seem more likable and appealing to your average Republic citizen; that trusted grandpa look, quite disarming. The clones however, as part of their various training methods and buried deep perhaps within their subconscious was the image of Palpatine both as Supreme Chancellor and "unmasked" as Darth Sidious. So they'd respond to his orders no matter if he'd lost his glamour or hadn't.

Also, you forget that Darth Sidious was never recognized as the head of state of the CIS. Count Dooku was the face of the Confederacy and subsequently replaced by General Grievous. Only the Jedi Council knew about a Sith Lord controlling the CIS and they kept that knowledge to themselves, compartmentalizing it. So both your average Joe citizen of the Republic and the Grand Army saw Palpatine as being the Supreme Chancellor and the Supreme Chancellor only.

To me, Order 66 always felt like a memenomic(sp?) command rather than "Your commander is now a bad guy. Don't ask questions, shoot him!"

This kind of supports that subconscious idea I just mentioned. Seeing Palpatine unmasked could have been the "trigger" for such memetic engineering.

unless the Senate totally screwed the pootch, I suspect that they would kind of make being the head of the enemy to Republic illegal and an act of treason, thus making Palpatine a traitor to the Republic (unless it's been retconned Palpatine's authority over the Clone Army was due being the supreme chancellor, not personal authority) and most sane nations make orders from a traitor to be illegal orders.

Again, no one knew that Darth Sidious was also Palpatine. No one knew who Darth Sidious was, period, except for the occasional dark shadow with a strong chin. The face of the CIS was Count Dooku and General Grievous. Only a few people knew about Sidious at all, ie the Jedi Council who chose to keep that secret among themselves.

Palpatine, as part of his grand scheme, had the title of "Commander-in-Chief" bestowed upon his office by the Senate when he requested emergency powers to deal with the Separatist Crisis. It would have appeared logical to have the powers of Chief of State and Commander in Chief locked within a single officer of the government -- especially one who was so publicly trusted by the Republic (remember, he looked like everyone's grandfather; the kind of guy you trust implicitly).

Also, it's worth noting that the correct way to address the Supreme Chancellor during the Republic era, was "Your Excellency." Also, Palpatine himself comes from an aristocratic family on Naboo. Even if the idea of a memetic image of Palpatine triggering something in the clones is not a good explanation, the fact that he was of noble blood and already addressed with noble titles is enough for a clone to call him "my lord."

[NecronLord]

Except y'know, how the order was delivered by a random disfigured dude. Who was addressed by a mysterious title. Who happened to be known to some people as the head of state of the enemy faction.

The signal the order was given over was a priority, executive one -- from the Supreme Chancellor's office and only used by the Supreme Chancellor. Why it would be anyone other than the Supreme Chancellor on that particular coded channel wouldn't make sense to a clone. But if that isn't a good enough reason for you, then how about the idea that the clones always knew what Palpatine looked like? It's mentioned in various sources that the Palpatine we knew pre-Windu Encounter was a glamour created with Sith powers to make him seem more likable and appealing to your average Republic citizen; that trusted grandpa look, quite disarming. The clones however, as part of their various training methods and buried deep perhaps within their subconscious was the image of Palpatine both as Supreme Chancellor and "unmasked" as Darth Sidious. So they'd respond to his orders no matter if he'd lost his glamour or hadn't.

None of that is in the movie, you're making it up to favour your interpretation. In the movie the clones hear 'Order 66' and respond with a curious 'My Lord' to a guy who looks very different to the public face of the supreme chancellor, and sounds different too.

Yes, you can explain that away through various apologetics, but don't claim there's nothing at all unusual about the Order 66 scene, or that it requires mundane obedience. You're already claiming sith conspiracy where a million units of clones recognize Sidious as Palpatine.

The chip is perfectly consistant with the film, to the point that this board had discussion of whether or not the clones were programmed secretly to respond to 'Order 66' when the movie came out. There was space to disagree, but many people watching the movie got the impression that the clones were specially conditioned, above their usual obedience, to carry out this task.

[Havok]

The chip makes sense. Palpatine knows these clones are going to be fighting alongside the Jedi for an undetermined amount of time, earning and garnering trust, respect, and even friendship. Counting on millions of individuals to all follow an order to kill a person that has saved your life multiple times over and vice versa based on an order is what is stupid.

As to recognizing Palpatine, it would be a simple matter of a special channel only he can communicate through, authentication codes popping up on the in helmet HUDs, etc., etc..

This was an act that needed to be carried out immediately and instantly with no warning whatsoever. There could be no room for questioning.

[Abacus]

It's mentioned in several different sources that the general Order 66, as recorded in the general orders that all clones memorize and follow to the letter (most of the time) is what they followed. They were following orders. There was no chip.

[NecronLord]

It's mentioned in several different sources that the general Order 66, as recorded in the general orders that all clones memorize and follow to the letter (most of the time) is what they followed. They were following orders. There was no chip.

Legends sources.

The Clone Wars was in no way bound to those, and even under the old canon rules, it trumps them all.