Star Wars: Rebels

[Galvatron]

It's mentioned in several different sources that the general Order 66, as recorded in the general orders that all clones memorize and follow to the letter (most of the time) is what they followed. They were following orders. There was no chip.

And all those sources are now decanonized and irrelevant. Welcome to the new canon, where the clones had chips in their heads.

[Abacus]

Let me see, let me see...[*rummages around*]...yup, nope -- not seeing any of the f**ks I could have given about the "new canon."

[Galvatron]

Fine. You're not going to win any arguments by clinging to apocryphal sources around here though.

[Abacus]

I will if anyone gives a damn about context. You know: "the circumstances that form the setting for an event, statement, or idea, and in terms of which it can be fully understood."

Just because Disney now has control over the IP and has retconned just about everything doesn't mean that what happened, as it happened, is somehow changed. An example: just because DC comics likes to retcon everything with a new release (Looking at you Crisis of the Infinite Earths) doesn't mean that the previous comics I have are somehow going to physically disappear; nor are the characters actions and choices taken in that setting going to change.

Ergo, if we're going to have an honest conversation about the Clone Wars, in context, then anything involving the Rebels series is not going to be included in it. I would also even question the inclusion of the Clone Wars animated TV show. The movies and novelizations thereof are, in my opinion, far more important and canonical than anything anyone else could claim.

[NecronLord]

You realize that the author of the General Order 66 material you reference was actually in an actual fued with various members of this board at one point, over her stubborn insistance that the clone army was three million individual soldiers max. That content was in no way better than TCW or Rebels.

[Crazedwraith]

You realize that the author of the General Order 66 material you reference was actually in an actual fued with various members of this board at one point, over her stubborn insistance that the clone army was three million individual soldiers max. That content was in no way better than TCW or Rebels.

He actually seems to be referencing the Stover Novelisation of RotS rather than Traviss' stuff. Especially the commlink only the Supreme Commander can use bit.

I don't think any one's nailed down the canon level of the Novelisation. But Stover's book is pretty steeping in Legends material so I figure it's at least in a 'if contradicted by new canon the book is overruled' situation as in old canon.


eta: That's at least one of the source. Traviss may be another she did write about the rules, and had that rule 65 was the same thing except for the Chancellor or something. In her crusade to make the jedi look stupid and evil....

[Galvatron]

The novelization for ROTJ said Owen was Obi-wan's brother. The novelizations are always subject to being overriden by subsequent Lucasfilm productions, which is exactly what TCW is.

[Mange]

The novelization for ROTJ said Owen was Obi-wan's brother. The novelizations are always subject to being overriden by subsequent Lucasfilm productions, which is exactly what TCW is.

That Owen and Obi-Wan were brothers came from the screenplay. That was also probably filmed but trimmed. According to Lucasfilm, the novelizations are canon "where they align with what is seen on the screen" (the Obi-Wan/Owen example is thus non-canon).

[Galvatron]

I understand that. The prequels overrode the screenplay, any deleted scenes and the novelization. By the same token, as Lucasfilm productions, TCW and Rebels would also qualify as "what is seen on screen." Hence, chips in the clones' heads override whatever contradictory information the ROTS novelization presented, whether it was adapted directly from the screenplay or not.

[Crazedwraith]

Oh yes, I quite agree. Though it's a shame. The RotS Novel was quite good.

The chips seem a silly idea to me as well, despite being canon. I thought there was some more than ordinary compulsion for the clones to obey Order 66 but I'd have thought it was more brainwashing than an actual physical chip. That would have been more secure and less easily detected/removed.

Though I guess if the chips allow more story telling opportunities it's not that bad.

[Galvatron]

The Emperor directly addressed this in the old EU and admitted that the pre-TCW, pre-head chip method of clonetrooper "programming" was imperfect.

http://oi61.tinypic.com/1qjsoy.jpg

My guess is that the new canon is trying to minimize any potential Jedi survivors of Order 66 by making it virtually impossible for the clones to disobey Palpatine's command. The chip was a failsafe, thus we're left with only a handful of survivors in the new canon versus the dozens upon dozens that we saw in the old EU.

[Rogue 9]

So, back to the actual subject of the thread, we came very close to seeing an orbital bombardment delivered from a Star Destroyer last night before Agent Kallus (I still can't believe they named him that) overrode Admiral Konstantine and ordered a ground assault. Speaking of said ground assault, the AT-ATs in Rebels are explicitly noted as an earlier mark and actually much larger than the ones in Empire, to explain the massive disparity between them and the Republic walker.

[Vance]

I thought there would be a massive disparity between the AT AT and AT TE regardless.

[Adam Reynolds]

Oh yes, I quite agree. Though it's a shame. The RotS Novel was quite good.

The chips seem a silly idea to me as well, despite being canon. I thought there was some more than ordinary compulsion for the clones to obey Order 66 but I'd have thought it was more brainwashing than an actual physical chip. That would have been more secure and less easily detected/removed.

Though I guess if the chips allow more story telling opportunities it's not that bad.

It is when it makes the Jedi even dumber than the films alone showed. The Jedi go from realizing that the clones have control chips to realizing that Tyranus is Dooku, who recruited the clone template. How did they not put two and two together?

The Jedi not realizing this based on Jango Fett, as from the films alone, was somewhat reasonable. Not realizing a problem after the above issue is just plain stupid.

My guess is that the new canon is trying to minimize any potential Jedi survivors of Order 66 by making it virtually impossible for the clones to disobey Palpatine's command. The chip was a failsafe, thus we're left with only a handful of survivors in the new canon versus the dozens upon dozens that we saw in the old EU.

That doesn't require a control chips that make the Jedi morons. There was only a single case of clones disobeying Order 66. The reason that so many Jedi survived was quite simply that they had character shields and certain wanted their pet Jedi to survive. What should have been done was that they simply said that most Jedi died or went into hiding in ways that made them irrelevant. This should have been easy with the new continuity.

[Batman]

So, back to the actual subject of the thread, we came very close to seeing an orbital bombardment delivered from a Star Destroyer last night before Agent Kallus (I still can't believe they named him that) overrode Admiral Konstantine and ordered a ground assault. Speaking of said ground assault, the AT-ATs in Rebels are explicitly noted as an earlier mark and actually much larger than the ones in Empire, to explain the massive disparity between them and the Republic walker.

Actually the 'height' difference at least seems about accurate. The AT-TE seems to be 8-15 metres tall and comes about to an AT-AT's knee, which seems to jive reasonably well with the scene from TESB where Luke ninjas one (at least on the 8 metre end).

[Galvatron]

There was only a single case of clones disobeying Order 66.

I know you're talking about Ion Team on Murkhana, but what about all the Jedi that Kal Skirata's boys saved? Hell, Captain Maze wasn't even one of Skirata's and he disobeyed Order 66 as well. Or are we excluding the Traviss novels from the old EU?

[Adam Reynolds]

I know you're talking about Ion Team on Murkhana, but what about all the Jedi that Kal Skirata's boys saved? Hell, Captain Maze wasn't even one of Skirata's and he disobeyed Order 66 as well. Or are we excluding the Traviss novels from the old EU?

I never read any of her novels or any sourcebooks that seriously considered any of her sources as canon. So I suppose that would be yes.

My point was that more generally, this plot device wasn't required to change this.

Actually the 'height' difference at least seems about accurate. The AT-TE seems to be 8-15 metres tall and comes about to an AT-AT's knee, which seems to jive reasonably well with the scene from TESB where Luke ninjas one (at least on the 8 metre end).

The official numbers are 13.5 meters and 22.5 meters. That would be 60% of the height. Judging by ESB scaling it would come out at 3/4ths of the way up the leg.

[Rogue 9]

Yes. In the Rebels Recon behind the scenes thing they put up after each episode, Dave Filoni said these were a different mark and were taller than the ESB walkers. He also said he just wanted a kaiju battle out of the episode and would gladly have just done that for 21 minutes, plot be damned.

[Gandalf]

Oh yes, I quite agree. Though it's a shame. The RotS Novel was quite good.

The chips seem a silly idea to me as well, despite being canon. I thought there was some more than ordinary compulsion for the clones to obey Order 66 but I'd have thought it was more brainwashing than an actual physical chip. That would have been more secure and less easily detected/removed.

Though I guess if the chips allow more story telling opportunities it's not that bad.

I think the big loss is one of imagery. What RTS did quite well was its visual storytelling in the Republic becoming the Empire. In the start people were taken in by the heroic army in the nice uniforms bringing strength and order back to the nation, but then had to see those same heroes become mass murderers. Having that slaughter be because of control chips breaks that symbolic link rather unpleasantly, in a similar manner to if Anakin had a chip in his head.

[Adam Reynolds]

I think the big loss is one of imagery. What RTS did quite well was its visual storytelling in the Republic becoming the Empire. In the start people were taken in by the heroic army in the nice uniforms bringing strength and order back to the nation, but then had to see those same heroes become mass murderers. Having that slaughter be because of control chips breaks that symbolic link rather unpleasantly, in a similar manner to if Anakin had a chip in his head.

Agreed completely.

EDIT: The problem with Clone Wars was that it was written after ROTS and thus didn't really think about the thematic problems in the same sense. They were concerned about the small stories at the expense of the big one.

[Gandalf]

I understand why they did it, from a brand management perspective. The clones are likable and easy to sell, but this becomes harder when one works out that they're basically the SS.

[Abacus]

I'd be a bit more forgiving and simply say "Wehrmacht," but yeah, a German uniform from WWII is still a German uniform from WWII.

[Adam Reynolds]

I'd be a bit more forgiving and simply say "Wehrmacht," but yeah, a German uniform from WWII is still a German uniform from WWII.

I think he was more going for the Order 66 - Holocaust comparison. Thus the GAR would be the SS.

[Abacus]

Order 66 is hardly a comparison to the Holocaust. If any WWII comparison could be made, it would be the pre-war Night of Long Knives.

[The Romulan Republic]

Well, what happened to the Jedi was a genocide, at least as defined by Merriam Webster Dictionary:

www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/genocide

": the deliberate killing of people who belong to a particular racial, political, or cultural group"

So while the killing was not on the same scale, comparisons to other genocides are not invalid.

Of course, you could also argue that that definition of genocide is overly broad, since it encompasses any killing of political opponents. But the Jedi also fit the "cultural group" criteria and are a subgroup of a "racial" group of sorts (Force users).