Who is the top dog of the Top Dogs in Trek? (Energy Beings)

[Prometheus Unbound]

True. And if the Borg don't care about people and only care about technology... they probably wouldn't bother to read security logs or personal diaries if they had access to direct specifications about the engineering capabilities of the ship. Since the only reason to pay attention to such information, for them, would be if it somehow provided information about the technology. They already have as much of that kind of information as they could want, so why bother?

in their search for Omega, they went through pre-warp societies literature / artwork / books / films or something.

There were 18 people assimilated (presumably, either that or just plain shot but I doubt it) in the part of the enterprise that was scooped out.

[biostem]

I would have said the Q quickly except for one thing. Q, in a Voyager episode once very clearly told Junior Q that one does not play with the Borg. This, to me at least, implies a level of parental safety warning.

I read that in the same vein as "Now Junior, I told you to stop kicking over that anthill! It's mean to the ants." Q didn't sound concerned for his son's safety...just wanted him to stop pestering the Borg.

So who is more powerful the Q or the Douwd?

We've never seen the Q destroy an entire race...but then again the Douwd was forced to resort to illusions and tricks to drive off the Enterprise instead of simply teleporting them away or wiping their memories.

Why make it a big point about the Borg. I mean look at them, they would be boring to tease anyway since 99.9999999% are drones you cannot have fun with. It would have made more sense if Q had said "Do not torment the Borg Queen" because she is the only one that will respond in a fun way.

As for Douwd, he was so depressed by his act of rage that the last thing he wanted to do was actually hurt anyone.

Who knows, maybe the fight boils down to who thinks the other one dead first.

Even though the Q seem unconcerned with what happens to lesser species, I do not that that is actually the case. To that end, that may be why the Q warn about riling up the Borg, as they tend to have a very bad effect on the lesser species they encounter...

I mean, a bunch of mice may not bother me, and I may be able to get along with a cat without issue, but if I really annoy that cat, THEN introduce it to the mice, things won't turn out very well...

[Simon_Jester]

True. And if the Borg don't care about people and only care about technology... they probably wouldn't bother to read security logs or personal diaries if they had access to direct specifications about the engineering capabilities of the ship. Since the only reason to pay attention to such information, for them, would be if it somehow provided information about the technology. They already have as much of that kind of information as they could want, so why bother?

in their search for Omega, they went through pre-warp societies literature / artwork / books / films or something.

There were 18 people assimilated (presumably, either that or just plain shot but I doubt it) in the part of the enterprise that was scooped out.

Eh. I have enough trouble making the events of the episode hang together without trying to factor in what the Borg did years later in a different series...

[grumbles]

It's certainly true that over time the Borg are portrayed as being more and more interested in people and cultural information, whereas they are almost purely interested in technology in their earliest appearances and are obviously a very technology-oriented culture (the masses of cybernetic implants should be a giveaway of that much).

In their first encounter with the Enterprise-D, it may well be that the Borg didn't get all the information they might desire. They'd have fragmentary data from the main computer, details from whatever subsystems were located in that plug of the hull they ripped out. But not enough to definitively understand how the Enterprise had come to be there. That would have to wait until later... and somehow, in the process of learning what had been going on the Borg became more interested in assimilating large numbers of humans.

Even though the Q seem unconcerned with what happens to lesser species, I do not that that is actually the case. To that end, that may be why the Q warn about riling up the Borg, as they tend to have a very bad effect on the lesser species they encounter...

I mean, a bunch of mice may not bother me, and I may be able to get along with a cat without issue, but if I really annoy that cat, THEN introduce it to the mice, things won't turn out very well...

Hm... yes. That's one possibility- that given their tendencies, riling up the Borg is a lot like blowing up stars gratuitously. The Q can do it in complete personal safety, but it has many consequences for lesser beings, some of them fatal. So that a young Q should not do it lightly or casually, because they don't have a clear enough understanding of the consequences to prevent those consequences.

Another possibility is the "don't give a boring toy to an immature lifeform" possibility- Q is saying "don't meddle with the Borg" not for anyone else's protection, and not for his, but for the Borg themselves. Because Q Junior is very likely to keep screwing around with a boring, unreactive, hyper-logical alien until finally getting petulant enough about the lack of response that he snaps their fingers and blows up all their ships or whatever.

[Tribble]

In-universe explanation that most makes sense(ish)- Q was lying to Picard about the Borg, for unknown reasons. Q is noted for being a liar after all. Perhaps if he told Picard what the Borg were really about and what they were going to do to him, Picard may acted differently, and Q wanted events to happen like they did. Of course, that interpretation is basically the complete opposite of how "Q-Who" played out on screen, but it's the best idea I can come up with.

The real reason for the Borg's change in behaviour is because the idea of assimilation became a brain bug for writers. I'll quote Darth Wong here:

"Brain bugs" is my personal term for ideas which are implanted in the collective consciousness of sci-fi fans. They enter through the ears ... and warp themselves around the cerebral cortex. This has the effect of making the victim extremely susceptible to ... suggestion. As they grow ... follows madness. And- oh, I'm sorry, am I quoting Khan again? Anyway, these ideas start as an insignificant microbe and then grow of their own accord, gradually infecting the mind like a malignant tumour.

This is generally not a problem with a sci-fi series that is authored (or at least closely directed) by one man. However, Star Trek is a collaborative effort spanning several decades and dozens (perhaps hundreds) of different writers, not to mention different producers. In many cases, the writers grew up as fans of earlier series, which meant that throw-away items from those earlier series became brain bugs in their minds. They infected the minds of the viewing public (including these writers), where they grew and festered for years into bloated, monstrous masses of diseased tissue. The result was that with each spin-off, minor elements of earlier series were blown completely out of proportion and became self-sustaining mythologies in their own right. In this document, I will discuss some of these brain bugs.

Borg assimilation

When we were first introduced to the Borg in "Q Who", they appeared to be a race of cyborg techno-scavengers. There was no hint of assimilation; we saw birthing rooms where baby drones were being grown in incubators, and Q explained that they were not interested in humans, or the Federation. They wanted only the Enterprise. They were technological "users", who apparently wandered space in search of useful technology to take from its owners by force. They validated Q's claims in that episode by demonstrating their interest in technology over organic life, when their only reaction to the death of a comrade was to take some important bits of his technology back with them.

But in "Best of Both Worlds", one of the writers had the bright idea of making the Borg kidnap Picard and then assimilate him while aboard their ship, thus setting up one of the best best cliff-hangers in Star Trek history. The situation was resolved (although Star Trek: Insurrection suggests that there may have been lasting brain damage from the incident), but the brain bug was planted. The Borg assimilate people! Of course, they only did it to one person, and they had to beam onto the Enterprise, knock him out, beam him back to their ship, and then surgically alter him in order to make it happen, but they did it nonetheless, and that was more than enough for the brain bug.

Fast forward to STFC: the writers get the bright idea that if a little bit of assimilation is good, then a lot of assimilation will be better. Where once they were interested in assimilating Federation technology, they were now interested only in assimilating people. Consider the plot of the film; when their attack failed and they were forced to go to plan B, they tried to prevent the technological development of the human race in order to assimilate it! They would have erased the very technology that they were supposedly interested in! But of course, their interest in technology was just part of their original concept, and all of that was washed away by the big brain bug.

Now, instead of assimilating key personnel in order to facilitate their goal of turning humans into a slave race ("to service us") and stealing all of the Federation's technology, assimilation is the entire raison d'etre of their society! All of a sudden, they're friggin' vampires! They lurch through the corridors of the Enterprise-E like extras from Night of the Living Dead, and when they seize their prey, they sink their fangs, er- "assimilation tubules" into their necks, leaving two nice little fang-marks, er- "assimilation tubule punctures". Instead of assimilating their victims through surgical procedures (as in "Best of Both Worlds"), they pollute your blood with nanoprobes (more parallels with vampires, who drink some of your blood and leave the rest in an undead state). Best of all, when you kill the head vampire, er- "Borg Queen", all of the other vampires, er- "drones" die too.

By the time the Voyager writers were done, the Borg were utterly useless, unable to learn or analyze or think for themselves. Their only means of technological advancement was to assimilate technology that they did not already have, and if they could not assimilate (eg- Species 8472), they were totally helpless. They actually needed Voyager to defeat Species 8472 for them! Yet another case of a brain bug turning an alien society into a farcical one-note joke.

And that's not even getting into how Voyager manages to beat them several times over...

[Tribble]

I forgot to add that another major change to the Borg was their location. In TNG it was heavily implied that the Borg were located a lot closer to the Federation, and that J-25 was roughly where Borg territory started (assuming that Q threw the E-D at the nearest Borg Cube). Q warned Picard that the area they were exploring was very dangerous. IMO the events of the "Neutral Zone," "BOBW," "I Borg" and "Descent" make a lot more sense if the Borg were only 7,000 ly away as opposed to 70,000 ly. It makes more sense that the Borg would decide to explore and invade the Federation was only a few thousand light years away rather than send ships all the way across the Galaxy and bypassing countless interesting/powerful species in the process. Unfortunately because the Borg were very popular villains and Voyager was in a bit of a ratings slump, the writers decided to throw them into the mix even though Voyager was nowhere near where the Borg were encountered in previous episodes.

[Simon_Jester]

It is also established that the Borg possess some kind of very fast travel technology- 'transwarp' or whatever.

I may be missing something due to lack of familiarity with Voyager, but is there any reason to assume that the Borg civilization isn't distributed throughout the galaxy, with 'nodes' or concentrations of Borg activity having sprouted up in whatever regions the Borg found something worth assimilating and decided to build up a few established worlds? The nodes would then be linked via transwarp corridors.

The largest and best-established of these nodes might be in the Delta Quadrant, but that wouldn't preclude the idea that there are other, smaller Borg 'colony' nodes somewhere much closer to Federation space.

[Eframepilot]

I forgot to add that another major change to the Borg was their location. In TNG it was heavily implied that the Borg were located a lot closer to the Federation, and that J-25 was roughly where Borg territory started (assuming that Q threw the E-D at the nearest Borg Cube). Q warned Picard that the area they were exploring was very dangerous. IMO the events of the "Neutral Zone," "BOBW," "I Borg" and "Descent" make a lot more sense if the Borg were only 7,000 ly away as opposed to 70,000 ly. It makes more sense that the Borg would decide to explore and invade the Federation was only a few thousand light years away rather than send ships all the way across the Galaxy and bypassing countless interesting/powerful species in the process. Unfortunately because the Borg were very popular villains and Voyager was in a bit of a ratings slump, the writers decided to throw them into the mix even though Voyager was nowhere near where the Borg were encountered in previous episodes.

The Borg's origin was set in the Delta Quadrant as far back as late TNG. The first Star Trek Encyclopedia says that they originated there (oddly without an episode citation) and a display of Geordi's in "Descent" shows the transwarp conduit exiting in the Delta Quadrant.

I always assumed that the Borg were spread out in small areas across much of the galaxy, as Simon_Jester describes above.

[Korgeta]

I honestly forgot about the Douwd, the Q are without doubt the well known power house but not eventhe continuum or Q himself have wiped out 50 billion in an instant, they might have the power but they certainly don't have the intent to do so, or at least how it was done by that Douwd.

I think the Q are the top dogs, they make themselves known, have a ego and are powerful, but the Douwd are clearly the quiet ones, no one knows much about them, and given how one wiped out an entire species in an instant, then its perhaps for the best, that they be left undisturbed, even for the Q.

[Ziggy Stardust]

Do we even know for certain that there ARE other Douwd? When Kevin revealed what he was, he seemed to imply that he CAME to the Milky Way galaxy, not that he was FROM there. For all we know, he is the only Douwd in the Milky Way or even remotely close to it. Hell, he could be the only Douwd left at all.

Further, we don't know what these other Douwd are LIKE. Kevin had the desire to be left alone and use trickery to conceal himself, but it is never implied in the episode that this is anything more than his individual personality, and a lot of that is fueled by him having fallen in love with a human (and the events that followed).

It is also worth noting that, while Kevin was immortal and possessed immense power, he certainly wasn't omniscient (he was perpetually caught surprised by the presence of the Enterprise/Picard).

We've never seen the Q destroy an entire race...but then again the Douwd was forced to resort to illusions and tricks to drive off the Enterprise instead of simply teleporting them away or wiping their memories.

Well, we don't know that the Douwd isn't capable of doing so ... remember, he was trying to convince the Enterprise to leave his world alone. Flinging them away with a snap of the finger would pretty much guarantee that they return. He wanted them to basically sound the "all clear" and go about their merry way, without drawing attention to himself (or his powers). And his desire to not hurt anyone would have precluded him from sending them so far away they couldn't come back.

[Tribble]

Well we do know some limits to Douwd:

A) He cannot resurrect people
B) He cannot hide himself from telepaths
C) He is clearly not omniscient.
D) It is possible to use transporters on him, at least if he is caught off guard. A transporter could potentially be used to kill him by dispersing his molecules, provided he cannot reform himself ala doctor Manhatten
E) He might not be able to teleport himself, as he appeared to use the turbolift to attend to Troi.

Of course, all of this could be due to him deliberately choosing to limit his powers.

[Prometheus Unbound]

Well, A B and C aren't him limiting his powers.

[Simon_Jester]

Well we do know some limits to Douwd:

A) He cannot resurrect people
B) He cannot hide himself from telepaths
C) He is clearly not omniscient.
D) It is possible to use transporters on him, at least if he is caught off guard. A transporter could potentially be used to kill him by dispersing his molecules, provided he cannot reform himself ala doctor Manhatten
E) He might not be able to teleport himself, as he appeared to use the turbolift to attend to Troi.

Of course, all of this could be due to him deliberately choosing to limit his powers.

As noted, A and C are not him limiting himself, or it would be insane for him to limit himself in such a way. If he could truly resurrect the dead and not just illusions of them, he would have done so. I assume that being omniscient would have helped him in some way that he simply did not have- for instance, he could have foreseen and neutralized the attack on his chosen homeworld before it arrived.

Now, which of these limits do the Q share? The Q are definitely able to teleport, but so might be the Douwd. I don't know if we've ever seen Q transported against his will.

Q does appear to lack true omniscience, or that is my opinion. I don't know if Q is detectable by telepaths (think so) or if he can hide from them (don't know).

I also do not know if Q can resurrect the dead, and if so whether any limits apply to that ability.

[Borgholio]

I also do not know if Q can resurrect the dead, and if so whether any limits apply to that ability.

Q has several times brought people back from the past, such as Issac Newton. Whether that falls under the category of time travel or resurrecting the dead is the question. But if Q can casually snap his fingers and teleport a centuries-dead scientist to the present day...I would say that restoring a dead corpse would be a piece of cake.

[Prometheus Unbound]

I also don't know if it counts, but Quinn managed to make all the males on Voyager... "gone".

Janeway: GONE??!!!!

Quinn: Yes... "gone" (dismissively). Oh well.



Or something like that. Q showed up and brought them back. I don't know if they were dead or never existed or ... what.

Did he bring Picard back to life in Tapestry? We only have his word, I guess.

[Elheru Aran]

IIRC, there are two theories as to what the Q do (well, more than two, but these are applicable):

--Either they make it *seem* as though what they've done has happened via extremely specific applications of technology. Make all the male population of the ship vanish=done by beaming them into a containment space of some sort, matter suspension in extradimensional space, cloak the men from sound and sight.

--By some technology or ability intrinisic to themselves, they are actually capable of doing all this.

EDIT: Just realized that these points aren't exclusive. Never mind. I guess it doesn't really matter just *how* they do all that, the fact is that they *can*, and we don't really have any upper limit for their power level.

[Prometheus Unbound]

Yeah; it's possible it's done via tech and it's all lies. I mean, transporters and a holodeck could create a poor facsimile of what they do, afterall.

but if they're at the stage where the tech is invisible and can apparently allow them to read minds and stuff to the point it is real to those experiencing it (like a super galactic version of the Talosians)... any sufficiently advanced technology is indi.. etc.

Tech or "energy being" ... it doesn't matter - they apparently can. And if no one can prove them otherwise, in universe, what does it matter? the effect is the same.

[Prometheus Unbound]

Damn it, what is it with the edit timer on this forum? Why was that ever introduced? :S


EDIT: One thing that makes me think it's a "natural" ability rather than techtech is because we, as the viewers, get to see it happen when the main characters / POV can't. We see Q talking to each other, debating, arguing. We never are given the impression, even "behind the scenes" out of sight of Picard etc that it's tech.

Even back stage, none of the producers or writers to my knowledge have ever indicated that it's trickery. Nor from DeLancie.


You can argue it's tech and put forth ideas - and they can't be ruled out. But it's like proving a negative. Teapot orbiting out past Mars etc. Unicorns. Can a Trekkie prove, in a vs, that it isn't tech? No. But at the end of the day, I don't think it's important. Whether they can or not, as far as day to day people are concerned in universe, they can.

Though I wonder what would happen if you tried to shoot one with a phaser? One tried in Farpoint but was stopped before he could. Worf tried but Picard told him not to. I don't think anyone has ever tried to do it? heh. Who knows, maybe if they did, they'd get stunned. for all we know.

I doubt it though.


But then Sisko broke Q's nose lol. Was that all part of a fantasy or was it real? I think it was Q playing along but... *holds up hands*.

[Elheru Aran]

The edit timer is to prevent dishonest debating. It's been around awhile-- it runs longer on some subforums than others-- but it can be annoying sometimes. Just something to live with, though.

Perhaps the classic flash that happens when Q's show up is some sort of transporter effect that's particularly convenient... but who knows.

[Prometheus Unbound]

The edit timer is to prevent dishonest debating. It's been around awhile-- it runs longer on some subforums than others-- but it can be annoying sometimes. Just something to live with, though.

Perhaps the classic flash that happens when Q's show up is some sort of transporter effect that's particularly convenient... but who knows.

As a kid watching it, I sometimes thought the flash was a warp effect (it's an identical effect, actually. in TNG it's the same as the enterprise's flash, in DS9 it's the same as a runabout flash and in VOY it's the same as Voyager's flash - I guess just reusing stock footage). Maybe he was "warping in" some stuff. but that doesn't make sense like when he makes Vash get skin legions or someone feel something.


But yes, it could, from a character's point of view, be tech.

EAFP:
Following the Enterprise - lots of ships are faster than warp 9.8.
Freezing a crew member - localised forcefield and temperature drop?
The court - transporter capable of beaming through shields and a holodeck
Observing all the crew and knowing what they're up to - sensors - voyager did this in The Void for example.
2D Brick Star Wall thing - energy field
Reading minds - telepathy certainly exists in the Trek universe - or even Geordi can sometimes tell when someone is lying by their body temperature and physiological changes with his VISOR - sensors capable of connecting to someone's mind? - Barclay did that in Nth Degree with the computer so he could "think" things to happen.

What else?


Other episodes:

Picard moving through time - could entirely be a holodeck for that episode as it starts and ends with Picard coming out of his quarters. Memory implants and erasures (done before multiple times).

Q Who - Tractor beams and warp drive more powerful than the Borg - easily possible.

Cleaning Picard's uniform - I dunno they have dermal regenerators, I'm sure a portable hairdryer that doesn't make a noise exists. Or just beaming the loose H20 molecules out.

Speaking to Picard whilst dead - mmmm got me there... since his body was still around. But he could make a clone, beam that to the Enterprise, then take the original picard, do medical stuff to revive him, holodeck / memory implants and then beam back to the enterprise.

Taking Voyager to subatomic levels before the big bang - holodeck or whatever to confuse sensors and the viewscreen.

Voyager as a christmas decoration - same

Any instance like Sherwood Forest - Transporter and holodeck.

Chasing Amanda Rogers through the ship - transporter and phase cloak

errrr.... Minimising the Calamarain and holding them in his hand whilst talking to them - holoprojector projecting a giant Him to them and a small them to Him.



Yadda yadda. Anything they have done to characters - taking them to the Q continuum etc - holodecks, replicators, transporters and medical stuff. Sure. Technically can't prove otherwise.

But then we've also seen Q when by themselves or with other Q and no humans - they ... *seem* to .. have legitimate powers. They talk as if they do, they act as if they do. There's never any talk of trickery or lies about what they seem to do.

Look at Amanda Rogers - she was imagining puppies and making them real. She was moving stuff with her mind without purposefully using technology.

Q and Q2 talking about punishments and one of them "losing" an entire asteroid belt.


Honestly, they're described as "omnipotent" but they seem more like the ancient Greek gods, with their silly games and using humans as pawns in some competition. The Q seem to act like that. They're not *all* powerful. At least some seem surprised sometimes. They don't finish each other's sentences. They can be killed (only by other's of their own kind and only then when it's 2:1 odds or more). So they're not literally the be all and end all of energy and the universe, but they are... up there. As Q said once, to Amanda : "There is nothing. NOTHING we cannot do."

[Prometheus Unbound]

We know we can't take them literally at their word. Q does lie. Actually he's the only one we've seen lie, as far as I know. Guinan said they're not all like him. When Q says "there is nothing. NOTHING we cannot do." he isn't being 100% truthful.

Individually, as far as we know, they cannot kill each other - they instead "will stalemate you forever!".

They can be surprised. There are things they don't know. However, I do wonder if this is something they do on purpose. They're always in control - there's no danger to them from us no matter what we do to them - and as Quinn has said they've seen everything, done everything, and now there is nothing left to talk about. Q sit in the continuum doing nothing. "Just existing", according to Quinn. He even spent some time as a scarecrow that never moves in a field with no birds, because he hadn't done it. Same as being a sleeping dog.

These were "representations" and projections of an actual reality behind it all - a metaphor - he's been a lizard, he's been a star, he's been a vacuum, he's been ... an electron and a supernova and a submarine and a landslide... he's .. they have all done... everything.

They have been everyone and they know all that there is. There's no debate, there's no discussion. All of them (however many - 10s, hundreds, trillions, an infinite amount) have been everything, seen everything, done everything, heard everything, been everyone, seen everyone, every planktime of history from before the big bang to the heath death of the multiverse that never ends... And all of that in only an infinitely small part of their entire existence. It's a bit like Michael Poole in the Xeelee Sequence (was that him, who got turned into a cosmic string and just spent 10^10^10^10^10 years or whatever just orbiting a black hole in silence with his arch enemy doing the same cos neither could hurt the other or say anything?).

So every so often they go off and change something. Throw a small pebble into an ocean with no waves and just watch what happens.

They don't "skip ahead", they observe it all, experience everything of it. and then go back for a while and exist as nothing and everything again.


It's like a culture mind without any stimulation.


So there are some limits, but it seems they're either self imposed or only when facing another Q.


I have a question; if we assume that the only limit they have is each other, and we take what they do at face value - "before the big bang", "creating an actual afterlife" and feats like that - I mean.. they are up there, right? Ignoring the STvsSW stuff and general trek hate on this forum, what they're meant to be, the writer's intent and all - they are pretty much ... it, as far as a being can go, other than existing as the multiverse itself, right?

[Tribble]

Well, Q's abilities seem to be intrinsic to their being and can be passed on. Amanda Rogers was apparently born with the powers of the Q even though her parents had taken human form and were apparently not using their powers at the time. Her only limitation was that her awareness of her abilities only came gradually.

I have a question; if we assume that the only limit they have is each other, and we take what they do at face value - "before the big bang", "creating an actual afterlife" and feats like that - I mean.. they are up there, right? Ignoring the STvsSW stuff and general trek hate on this forum, what they're meant to be, the writer's intent and all - they are pretty much ... it, as far as a being can go, other than existing as the multiverse itself, right?

Apparently humanity has the potential of one day surpassing them, which is why they sent de Lancie's Q to monitor humanity and test it. It seemed as though the Q wanted to know whether or not humanity was worthy of the power it might one day achieve. How humanity is supposed to surpass the Q or what being greater than a Q means from a practical standpoint is not known, though De Lancie's Q does give a hint in "All Good Things:"

Q: We wanted to see if you had the ability to expand your mind and your horizons, and for one brief moment, you did.
Picard: When I realised the paradox.
Q: Exactly. For that one fraction of a second, you were open to options you had never considered. That is the exploration that awaits you. Not mapping stars or studying nebula, but charting the unknown possibilities of existence.

[Elheru Aran]

All smells of navel-gazing to me, frankly... There's expanding your mind and then there's actually getting stuff done. Or maybe I'm just not a poet.

[Tribble]

All smells of navel-gazing to me, frankly... There's expanding your mind and then there's actually getting stuff done. Or maybe I'm just not a poet.

Well, we are dealing with a fictional universe here. It quite possible that Q's powers are thought related in some manner and were at least partially developed via introspection. The point Q seemed to be making was that it was studying what you are is at least as important as studying the universe around you.

[biostem]

Well, Q's abilities seem to be intrinsic to their being and can be passed on. Amanda Rogers was apparently born with the powers of the Q even though her parents had taken human form and were apparently not using their powers at the time. Her only limitation was that her awareness of her abilities only came gradually.

I have a question; if we assume that the only limit they have is each other, and we take what they do at face value - "before the big bang", "creating an actual afterlife" and feats like that - I mean.. they are up there, right? Ignoring the STvsSW stuff and general trek hate on this forum, what they're meant to be, the writer's intent and all - they are pretty much ... it, as far as a being can go, other than existing as the multiverse itself, right?

Apparently humanity has the potential of one day surpassing them, which is why they sent de Lancie's Q to monitor humanity and test it. It seemed as though the Q wanted to know whether or not humanity was worthy of the power it might one day achieve. How humanity is supposed to surpass the Q or what being greater than a Q means from a practical standpoint is not known, though De Lancie's Q does give a hint in "All Good Things:"

Q: We wanted to see if you had the ability to expand your mind and your horizons, and for one brief moment, you did.
Picard: When I realised the paradox.
Q: Exactly. For that one fraction of a second, you were open to options you had never considered. That is the exploration that awaits you. Not mapping stars or studying nebula, but charting the unknown possibilities of existence.

Star Trek has this theme that comes up every so often, that there's this "potential" that humanity has, and they need only expand their minds/thoughts/etc to unlock it - look at the episodes with the Traveler, or when Chakotay was able to overcome the events in that one episode where he was hallucinating about the boxing ring. There was also that episode, (again with the Traveler), where they went to a region of the universe where thoughts became reality, (though it affected Worf as well, so that couldn't be just a human thing).

[Tribble]

Well, Q's abilities seem to be intrinsic to their being and can be passed on. Amanda Rogers was apparently born with the powers of the Q even though her parents had taken human form and were apparently not using their powers at the time. Her only limitation was that her awareness of her abilities only came gradually.

I have a question; if we assume that the only limit they have is each other, and we take what they do at face value - "before the big bang", "creating an actual afterlife" and feats like that - I mean.. they are up there, right? Ignoring the STvsSW stuff and general trek hate on this forum, what they're meant to be, the writer's intent and all - they are pretty much ... it, as far as a being can go, other than existing as the multiverse itself, right?

Apparently humanity has the potential of one day surpassing them, which is why they sent de Lancie's Q to monitor humanity and test it. It seemed as though the Q wanted to know whether or not humanity was worthy of the power it might one day achieve. How humanity is supposed to surpass the Q or what being greater than a Q means from a practical standpoint is not known, though De Lancie's Q does give a hint in "All Good Things:"

Q: We wanted to see if you had the ability to expand your mind and your horizons, and for one brief moment, you did.
Picard: When I realised the paradox.
Q: Exactly. For that one fraction of a second, you were open to options you had never considered. That is the exploration that awaits you. Not mapping stars or studying nebula, but charting the unknown possibilities of existence.

Star Trek has this theme that comes up every so often, that there's this "potential" that humanity has, and they need only expand their minds/thoughts/etc to unlock it - look at the episodes with the Traveler, or when Chakotay was able to overcome the events in that one episode where he was hallucinating about the boxing ring. There was also that episode, (again with the Traveler), where they went to a region of the universe where thoughts became reality, (though it affected Worf as well, so that couldn't be just a human thing).

Well, I suppose humanity could be interpreted a bit more broadly to include any group that descended from the ancient humanoids from "The Chase." The anomaly in "All Good Things" did wipe out virtually every Alpha Quadrant power.