Something big

[23 November 1939]

Weapons - partly it's style and based on existing references. But if it's up to me I like centerline mounts because they have the best arc, but the ability to mount many of them is limiting. The result go to flanks and then I just I try to give them the best arc possible given the hull form.

...

For design trade offs, I think the key thing to look at is mass, not volume, because that determines what's required for good acceleration. Armor is expensive in that it is heavy (neutronium), weapons are heavy for the structural strength necessary to take continent-evaporating recoil (probably also something involving neutronium). I happen to think SW warships use very little power relatively speaking for propulsion - most of it is going to weapons or shields. If a significant portion of SW power is needed to move their mass, that mass is so great that some canon scenes of ships interacting with planets become impossibly mild in terms of effects (the Lucrehulk crashing in AOTC, for example).

...

[W]arships need protected volume, so engines that get big cost armor. At that point, weapons and their recoil absorbing structure is the only thing to give.

Fair enough. I get your point about volume really mattering only to the extent that one has to protect it. I had wondered a bit about the cost of moving weapons further away from the reactor. But, unless the power "cables" (for lack of a better term) are really mass intensive, bracing a turret is probably a far more significant concern. And concentrating too much recoil in one spot probably has its own issues.

Centerline turrets certainly make sense to me. And, I do prefer the look. Centerline always seems neater and more "professional," in the same way that two turrets fore and aft always looks "right."

Edit: I appreciate your point about the Star Destroyer occupying a sweet spot. Does explain 25,000 and counting. As I say, part of what I am really enjoy with these recent frigates is that the hulls are large enough to allow some nice toys, but small enough that one has to balance - and decide what one gives up relative to an ISD. The balance of protection, mobility, and firepower (with the implicit issue of endurance in each case).

[fractalsponge1]

Vindicator pretty much done:

[Crossroads Inc.]

That pretty freeking sweet!
I can see this craft as an excellent mid-range support craft. Powerful medium sized guns, no "Big" guns, but a lot of mediums.
The five engines give me the impression this is a speedy ship as well, maybe for hunting down smugglers / Pirates?
Also having a hanger, I wonder how many fighters it could hold.
Over all I very much like how much of a different look it has from standard SD's.
And you said this was done as a Commission?

[fractalsponge1]

Yep commissioned piece. Next up I believe is supposed to be a Mandalorian warship.

This was supposed to be the Vindicator, which in the old EU was the base hull of the Immobilizer. Definitely the wrong hull for it, given the power demands, but in my headcanon Sienar was in deep on the gravity well project and managed to get one of its hulls selected as a launch platform...

The carriage for the Vindicator is (from earlier post):
Space for ~4-5 light fighter squadrons, or 2 heavy squadrons (Defender/Scimitar), or 1 assault gunboat and 1 light squadron. Flexibility to dock many types of ship is important away from the fleet. Room for Escort shuttles, single Lambda, selection of light dropships and transports. Probably typical carriage would be 1 flight of assault gunboats and 2 light squadrons. Flank hangar bays room for racked light fighters in 2 levels, or Defender/Gunboat in one level. Aft aperture just big enough to take a Lambda (the prestige personnel transport), as well as Escort shuttles. Front aperture for transports and dropships.

Troops - tactically, would be battalion, since that's typically the smallest independent ground force unit. 1 company in repulsorlift, 1 company light armor (Sabre, or scout/medium walker mix), 1 company leg infantry for ship duties, 1 company scouts and light infantry (speeder bikes).

Vindicator was supposedly a replacement for the old Rendili Dreadnaught. In Imperial service that was mostly a local group sort of unit, so I think this is as well, just much more agile and more efficient.

[Crazedwraith]

Wasn't there a canon ship based on the Interdictor hull like this? Dominator Class picket ship IIRC.

Pretty ship, though the guns are always much more obvious on your stuff than on canon depictions of things.

[Abacus]

...though the guns are always much more obvious on your stuff than on canon depictions of things.

Most Pre-Imperial ships had exposed or out-hull mounted weaponry. Only when guns had fixed mountings, such as the "inside" guns you see in the RotS entry scene at the Battle of Coruscant (making a literal broadside fusillade in space -- the merits of which can be discussed elsewhere), when the Venator is firing at Grievous' flagship.



Nice new ship there Ansel! Looks fairly menacing.

[fractalsponge1]

Let's be honest: most of the old art was totally incongruous with the stated armament because they could not be bothered to make it detailed enough. Fixed that for you guys

Dominator is the interdictor (small I) variant of the ISD. Its gravity wells are enormous, combined several times the total volume of the Vindicator hull. I would expect that its performance is much higher than the original Immobilizer.

Some recent renders of Wrath and Secutor. I realized I never even added windows to the Secutor!

http://fractalsponge.net/?p=854

Examples:

[Abacus]

Nice view!

[Raesene]

A private commission or can we expect to see your work again illustrating an official book ?

The Vindicator is another nice one, has a good size; somehow it seems more... usable than the big ones. Wrath is still a monster

[23 November 1939]

Like what you've done with the Vindicator. The large, flexible hanger bay makes a lot of sense as you describe it. I was never sure whether the Dominator actually retained the volume of the globes - it is described as an Immobilizer 418 variant, which always felt a bit backwards since the Immobilizer appeared to be a Vindicator variant. I just chalked it up to retconning.

Always happy to see more of the Assertor and, especially, the Secutor. I never noticed the lack of windows, but always glad to see more of these two. The Assertor was a heck of a lot of fun to watch unfold. For some reason or other, the Secutor just fascinates me with every new angle. It feels like a classic. The battery concentrated forward for pursuit, the broad stern to accommodate the engines, the enormous recessed bays... It grabs me in a way that the Venator just never managed to.

[fractalsponge1]

The Dominator is this one (this is the version I made for the Essential Guide to Warfare):


As you can see, the grav well volume is enormous compared to an Immobilizer based on the Vindicator. I'm going to do a render that should make that clear.

And yes, I really like how the Secutor came out

[Eternal_Freedom]

Every time I see the Dominator I think "oh look, an ISD with boobs."

On a serious note, that is a very pretty model of the Vindicator, and the Assertor is always awesome to see.

Incidentally, that Fleet Tender of yours that was in the Guide to Warfare? It's made it into a Sins of a Solar Empire mod (not the model itself, but the design and the name and the idea behind it).

[fractalsponge1]

Yes, the Altor was in two of the pictures I made for the book.

http://fractalsponge.net/?p=105
http://fractalsponge.net/?p=102

[Eternal_Freedom]

Ah it was the Altor, I couldn't remember if that was the name you used or one they added for the mod. It's a good mod by the way, Thrawn's Revenge II: Ascendency.

[Crossroads Inc.]

A private commission

Yeah it's pretty intense if you think about it.
I've always considered wishing for a commission from Ansel, but I don't think I could afford it.
Well not unless he did commissions on an installment plan

Let's be honest: most of the old art was totally incongruous with the stated armament because they could not be bothered to make it detailed enough. Fixed that for you guys

I agree and it is not something you can really fault them for back in the day.
If your an artist drawing something like an ISD or something bigger you have the space of maybe 5 or 6 inches to work with. Maybe more if they are scaling down an image.
I have to say, with the advent of CGI, making 'realistic' gun armaments is probably one of the most awesome things to come from it.

Dominator is the interdictor (small I) variant of the ISD. Its gravity wells are enormous, combined several times the total volume of the Vindicator hull. I would expect that its performance is much higher than the original Immobilizer.

Which is confusing when you consider that most source books say it had POOR performance and took 'A long time' to power up.
(conveniently giving rebels a chance to escape.)

You would think that the Energy usage of the grav generators would be more than offset by the reduction of weapons and such from it.

On a final note, it is always good seeing you going back and touching up old designs.
Especially ones like the "Wrath"!
It was almost 5 years ago at this point that someone dubbed it the "cyclopean murderwedges" and I think it is by far one of the most accurate descriptions!

[Crazedwraith]

I misremembered I was thinking of the Enforcer Class picket. But the images still shows grav generator domes on that one.

But look at other immobiliser variants on wookiepedia... Oh the Vindicator class you're talking about is actually legends canon? I didn't know that, I'd got it in my head it was totally custom for the commissionor or something..

[Torben]

I think the ship that some are calling the Dominator is actually the Enforcer-class picket cruiser developed by the PentaStar alignment. Wookiepedia (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Enforcer ... et_cruiser) states the Enforcer was based on the Immobilizer 418 and Vindicator heavy cruiser hulls.

[fractalsponge1]

No, the Dominator is this one:
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Dominato ... Destroyer)

The EU lineage is:
Vindicator -> Immobilizer (grav well interdictor variant) -> Enforcer (reconversion to combatant design - the wookie pic is wrong, since it does not have grav wells)

[Crossroads Inc.]

Oh fractal, random question.
What was the total cubic cargo capacity of your Consolidator-class Assault Carrier?

[fractalsponge1]

You don't ask easy questions, do you? I'd have to do some calcs for that, as long as I can include hangar and vehicle bay volume as well. It would be very approximate, as I never actually did a precise internal deck arrangement.

[Torben]

No, the Dominator is this one:
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Dominato ... Destroyer)

The EU lineage is:
Vindicator -> Immobilizer (grav well interdictor variant) -> Enforcer (reconversion to combatant design - the wookie pic is wrong, since it does not have grav wells)

I understand that the Dominator is a gravwell ship based on an ISD hull. A comment upthread mentioned the Dominator being a cruiser based on the Immobilizer hull, but specifically not the Vindicator. The only other canon ship of which I'm aware that shares a 600m hull with the Immobilizer is the Enforcer, hence my comment. Apologies if I wasn't clear in my thinking.

[Crossroads Inc.]

You don't ask easy questions, do you? I'd have to do some calcs for that, as long as I can include hangar and vehicle bay volume as well. It would be very approximate, as I never actually did a precise internal deck arrangement.

LOL sorry matie, I actually could have swore it was something you had pre calculated when you had that giant almagamation of everything you would need to fit inside of it all stacked together.

The main reason I am curious, I wonder if it has a bigger or smaller capacity then a 'Lucrehulk' which (supposedly) has a capacity of 25 million metric tons.

[Crazedwraith]

No, the Dominator is this one:
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Dominato ... Destroyer)

The EU lineage is:
Vindicator -> Immobilizer (grav well interdictor variant) -> Enforcer (reconversion to combatant design - the wookie pic is wrong, since it does not have grav wells)

I understand that the Dominator is a gravwell ship based on an ISD hull. A comment upthread mentioned the Dominator being a cruiser based on the Immobilizer hull, but specifically not the Vindicator. The only other canon ship of which I'm aware that shares a 600m hull with the Immobilizer is the Enforcer, hence my comment. Apologies if I wasn't clear in my thinking.

Yep, that was me.

I also corrected myself and posted the same wookie link as you, right above your post.

[23 November 1939]

The Dominator is this one (this is the version I made for the Essential Guide to Warfare):
[snip]
As you can see, the grav well volume is enormous compared to an Immobilizer based on the Vindicator. I'm going to do a render that should make that clear.

I misremembered I was thinking of the Enforcer Class picket. But the images still shows grav generator domes on that one.

I was thinking of the same on one as Crazedwraith. Enforcer, as described, did not make much sense to me.

[N]aval architects removed the massive power generators from an Immobilizer 418 cruiser and discovered that by re-arranging the vessels power grids, they could significantly enhance the ship's energy weapons, shields, and tractor beams. Even the engines experienced a bonus from this reconfiguration. The end result was a very fast and maneuverable vessel that was well armed for a ship its size.

Of course that could be just bad writing (either in Wookieepedia or the source material). At least as far back as the original Guide to Vehicles and Vessels, the Immobilizer 418 was described as being built on an existing heavy cruiser hull. Seems odd that one would talk of starting with an Immobilizer 418 and razeeing it to a general purpose cruiser. But, perhaps the intent was to give readers an idea of what it looked like, as easily as possible. "Canon" was always such a lose concept in the EU - less important to those selling things than to those who were buying them.

I can definitely see what you mean about the volume of the Dominator, but I certainly will not complain if you are inclined to share a few comp pics . It has probably been asked, but I wonder how much an ISD would have to give up to squeeze in Immobilizer-scale projectors rather than Dominator-scale.

[Torben]

Enforcer originally debuted in one of the WEG RPG Adventure Journals detailing an Imperial Remnant in one of the rim territories. I'll see if I can dig it up when I get home. I don't recall what artwork was used, if any. I don't recall the specifics of the backstory as detailed in the AJ either. If I still have the book or can find it online somewhere, I'll post the relevant text.