Star Wars: Rebels

[Batman]

Um...the production model B-Wings had fully functional hyperdrives. The prototype kinda didn't. When you're an Insurgent movement that doesn't have bases everywhere or a large fleet of hypercapable carriers that's something of a drawback.

[tezunegari]

Um...the production model B-Wings had fully functional hyperdrives. The prototype kinda didn't. When you're an Insurgent movement that doesn't have bases everywhere or a large fleet of hypercapable carriers that's something of a drawback.

The prototype had a Hyperdrive. It was fried during the weapons test. Most likely they will have replaced it once the prototype was officially handed over to the rebel fleet.

[biostem]

Um...the production model B-Wings had fully functional hyperdrives. The prototype kinda didn't. When you're an Insurgent movement that doesn't have bases everywhere or a large fleet of hypercapable carriers that's something of a drawback.

The prototype had a Hyperdrive. It was fried during the weapons test. Most likely they will have replaced it once the prototype was officially handed over to the rebel fleet.

This makes me wonder - the physical space where the hyperdrive would be was still there... so why not make a little thing that basically disconnects the hyperdrive when you are firing the mini-superlaser, then reconnects it afterward? Or, if the damage was due to some kind of surge or something, add in some circuit breaker devices to cut off the connection when said overload is about to happen...

[Abacus]

It makes me angry that they shat all over a legacy of Admiral Ackbar. The greatest military mind and patriot Mon Calamari ever produced, helping to create a fighter to specifically be a nightmare of the government forces that enslaved him and his people -- and they rip that to shreds with a cranky old fish stuck on a backward world tinkering away by himself for no other purpose than because he likes to tinker and make ships.

I'm hating Rebels Season 2 now...

[Zixinus]

Where did they even say that the B-wing was made by Ackbar? I don't recall.

To me, when I first read that detail it came across more as an author unable to figure out how to characterize how good a commander Ackbar is and then figured throwing the credit of designing the thing to him. Because the Mon Calamari are good at making spaceships and he is a Mon Calamari and thus he is good as designing spaceships, yeah, right. Unless they handled the story of Ackbar way better than that, I only see improvement.

The thing is that they are rebels: eccentric engineers tinkering away for the pleasure of building spaceships is going to be their first choice of picking both engineers and ship designers. They can't exactly just hire a company to do it for them, even if money is not a factor. The fact that this guy was in contact with rebels and was willing to give away both his prototype and his design instead of selling it tells that the guy obviously had a grudge.

To me it came across more pissing when it happened in Clone Wars where they took a spaceship commander and turned him into the captain of a infantry. This guy should up be up there leading a desperate, scrambled-together armada of spaceships trying to gain superiority to allow taking back their planet, but instead he demoted to be down there nursing a kid who had to rub his metaphorical balls together to lead a revolt.

[Galvatron]

Yeah, I never liked the idea that Ackbar had a hand in designing the B-wing. It seemed wankish, like having Vader design his own fighter. I'd much rather the new EU focus on his strategic acumen as the commander of the Alliance fleet.

[RogueIce]

It'll be interesting to see how they reconcile the production model B-Wings not being as good as the prototype. I wonder if it'll make a re-appearance as well.

Maybe he ultimately can't fix the "superlaser knocks out hyperdrive" problem. Or maybe because they're mass producing, they had to cut corners because something-something not reliable, too expensive, etc. I mean we see the production B-wings don't have that ball turret like the prototype. Clearly adjustments were made.

I wonder if they'll get into the whole "Incom tech-team defecting to the Rebellion and bringing the X-Wings with them" plot... and how/why they seemed to become the staple fighter over the B-Wings apparent superior performance, (perhaps much simpler to produce, or the Incom team brought all the already-produced models with them)?

IIRC Rebels Recon says that the cells using X-wings and Y-wings are out there, they're just not this cell the Rebels hooked up with.

I kind of prefer it, honestly, to have the A-wing and B-wing be contemporary to the X- and Y-wings (well at least X-wings, since Y-wings are Clone Wars craft) rather than the Rebels being all F-22 with their shit.

Yeah, I never liked the idea that Ackbar had a hand in designing the B-wing. It seemed wankish, like having Vader design his own fighter. I'd much rather the new EU focus on his strategic acumen as the commander of the Alliance fleet.

Or Jan Dodonna inventing the A-wing.

Basically they were extremely uncreative and just slapped movie characters into making these ships, rather than just some faceless tech team doing what faceless tech teams do.

I mean, did Admiral Piett invent the TIE interceptor in time for ROTJ? Of course not. But for some reason the new Rebel fighters introduced in ROTJ had minor movie characters creating them. Because reasons.

[NecronLord]

It makes me angry that they shat all over a legacy of Admiral Ackbar. The greatest military mind and patriot Mon Calamari ever produced, helping to create a fighter to specifically be a nightmare of the government forces that enslaved him and his people -- and they rip that to shreds with a cranky old fish stuck on a backward world tinkering away by himself for no other purpose than because he likes to tinker and make ships.

I'm hating Rebels Season 2 now...

Umm. Ackbar commanded the battle that caused the fall of the Empire. He needs no other legacy.

He certainly doesn't need to be a genius ship designer as well as a commander, that was EU silliness.

[FaxModem1]

It makes me angry that they shat all over a legacy of Admiral Ackbar. The greatest military mind and patriot Mon Calamari ever produced, helping to create a fighter to specifically be a nightmare of the government forces that enslaved him and his people -- and they rip that to shreds with a cranky old fish stuck on a backward world tinkering away by himself for no other purpose than because he likes to tinker and make ships.

I'm hating Rebels Season 2 now...

We should also keep in mind that the greatest tactical mind from Mon Calamari didn't send in a single vessel or fighter as a scout to radio ahead and to give the all clear before sending in the entire fleet to Endor, only finding out it was a trap after his fleet got boxed in by all the TIE fighters and the Imperial fleet, leading to his most famous line. It's probably for the best that a somewhat kooky inventor is the creator of the fighter instead of Ackmar.

[NecronLord]

We should also keep in mind that the greatest tactical mind from Mon Calamari didn't send in a single vessel or fighter as a scout to radio ahead and to give the all clear before sending in the entire fleet to Endor, only finding out it was a trap after his fleet got boxed in by all the TIE fighters and the Imperial fleet, leading to his most famous line. It's probably for the best that a somewhat kooky inventor is the creator of the fighter instead of Ackmar.

I'd like to assume there was some sort of jamming at Endor, otherwise obviously the ground team should have been able to radio the fleet to give them an all clear when the shield was down.

[FaxModem1]

I'd like to assume there was some sort of jamming at Endor, otherwise obviously the ground team should have been able to radio the fleet to give them an all clear when the shield was down.

Possible, as the fleet couldn't tell whether the shield was up or down. It's also possible that unless the ground team was a suicide team, they didn't want to have them broadcasting with a transmitter capable of telling the fleet outside the system what was going on. It also wouldn't have helped the fleet know what the defenses were in orbit.

If only they had a ship with a cloaking device, as we do know they have them in this setting.

[Batman]

Lando for all practical purposes says there was jamming. 'How can they be jamming us if they didn't know we're coming?'

[Galvatron]

I didn't even like Ackbar's old backstory as some sort of slave/protege of Tarkin's. I'm glad this new EU is refraining from the temptation to show us that.

[FaxModem1]

Still comes to stupidity on Ackbar and the rebellion's part to give a rebel ship a slotted amount of time to broadcast an all clear, with any jamming or lack of transmission to let them know that their mission has been compromised, and they shouldn't risk the entire fleet to what is a compromised mission.

[Galvatron]

How do we know he didn't? The Emperor ordered the fleet hide on the far side of Endor so any scout ship that Acbkar sent would have seen an unprotected Death Star.

[The Romulan Republic]

It makes me angry that they shat all over a legacy of Admiral Ackbar. The greatest military mind and patriot Mon Calamari ever produced, helping to create a fighter to specifically be a nightmare of the government forces that enslaved him and his people -- and they rip that to shreds with a cranky old fish stuck on a backward world tinkering away by himself for no other purpose than because he likes to tinker and make ships.

I'm hating Rebels Season 2 now...

We should also keep in mind that the greatest tactical mind from Mon Calamari didn't send in a single vessel or fighter as a scout to radio ahead and to give the all clear before sending in the entire fleet to Endor, only finding out it was a trap after his fleet got boxed in by all the TIE fighters and the Imperial fleet, leading to his most famous line. It's probably for the best that a somewhat kooky inventor is the creator of the fighter instead of Ackmar.

I've thought for a long time that the EU stuff about Ackbar being a military genius or something like that was off.

Let's look at Ackbar's role in the films. It pretty much amounts to this:

He briefly explains some stuff at the briefing on the Second Death Star attack.
He catches onto the trap (after Lando, as I recall) and starts shouting like he's in a panic rather than maintaining an air of calm professionalism.
He gives some simple orders related to positioning the fleet, at least some of which are fairly straightforward and obvious (like going away from the Death Star when its about to blow up).
He appears highly indecisive, initially opting to retreat before being talked into fighting by Lando.
He orders all ships (other than those flying into the Death Star itself, anyway) to concentrate fire on the Executor. Which is not a bad idea, but hardly a brilliant tactic. Hell, "Everybody shoot at the biggest enemy ship" is probably an order you could train an ape to give.

The decision to stand and fight, and the unconventional tactics that allowed them to do so, were largely Lando's doing. Likewise, Lando lead the assault on the Death Star's core.

Ackbar strikes me as a probably basically competent but rather by the book and not terribly decisive or imaginative commander. Good enough in an administrative position, perhaps, or for more routine operations, but not in the top tier. He simply has an inflated reputation because he was the commander at Endor and a much more clever (albeit arguably more reckless) commander named Lando, along with a lot of luck, saved his ass.

[Adam Reynolds]

Ackbar is actually a good example of a tactical strawman. The incompetent character that exists in order to make our hero look good. In the case of the Battle of Endor(space), that hero was Lando. Every notable observation in that fight is Lando's.
- He notices that the shields are still up. Even everyone's favorite action survivor X-wing pilot was about to fly right into it.
- He calmly gives orders to the Rebel fighters, while in the thick of the action himself in contrast to the more frantic position of Ackbar.
- He notices the oddity of Star Destroyers not attacking just before the Death Star opens up on them.
- While Ackbar was about to turn and run, Lando points out that this battle really is an all or nothing struggle. If the Alliance lost at Endor that would have been the end of it. An operation Death Star means the end of the Rebel Alliance as a effective force.
- He correctly notes that the best way to avoid the Death Star mauling the Rebel fleet is to get in close to Imperial ships. This also plays to the strength of smaller Rebel ships if they can maneuver out of position of Imperial big guns. A Nebulon B frigate even survives a point blank duel with Executor by doing exactly this.

All and all, Ackbar only seems competent once Lando is busy flying into the Death Star. Presumably that is because he was only confident enough after the Rebels were winning. Not exactly the model of a skilled commander.

[Prometheus Unbound]

I'd like to assume there was some sort of jamming at Endor,

Yeah it was pretty much directly stated.

"Ah meta go moopy weepy" (whatever)

"Well how could they be jamming us if they don't know that we're...... coming. Break off the attack, the shield is still up!"
"I get no reading, are you sure?" (because he's being jammed)
"Pull up, all craft pull up!"

[Rogue 9]

It'll be interesting to see how they reconcile the production model B-Wings not being as good as the prototype. I wonder if it'll make a re-appearance as well.

I wonder if they'll get into the whole "Incom tech-team defecting to the Rebellion and bringing the X-Wings with them" plot... and how/why they seemed to become the staple fighter over the B-Wings apparent superior performance, (perhaps much simpler to produce, or the Incom team brought all the already-produced models with them)?

In the Rebels Recon bit for the last episode, Pablo Hidalgo said that the Phoenix cell is different from the cell on Yavin IV that was fielding X-wings and Y-wings, which is why they have different fighters (the fact that the Phoenix cell is also covertly sponsored by Alderaan aside). This also strikes me as the beginning of setting up the reason why these characters can coexist with the OT when they come to that and don't want to kill them off.

We also don't know that the production model B-wings aren't as good as the prototype; we never see them in action in Return of the Jedi. They simply don't appear on screen after the initial run at the Death Star was broken off. We do know that a squadron of them at least disabled the Devastator in the battle, so the production models apparently still pack quite a punch.

[Rogue 9]

Spoiler

Okay, what the hell? At the beginning of the episode this woman was trying to steal their stuff and/or murder them, and by the end Sabine trusts her enough to openly say that Senator Organa is a rebel right in front of her? Did I miss something?

[Galvatron]

I've thought for a long time that the EU stuff about Ackbar being a military genius or something like that was off.

It would have been interesting to see or even simply hear a reference to Ackbar commanding a separatist fleet and winning during The Clone Wars. Something about his brilliance in achieving a major victory against superior Republic forces commanded by a Jedi would have been great.

Then having him pop back up on the side of the good guys in ROTJ would have really put into perspective that whole "heroes on both sides" thing that the ROTS crawl teased us with and failed to deliver on.

[The Romulan Republic]

Ackbar was on the Republic's side in the Clone Wars. We did get a chance to see him in action, during the animated series. But it was as a ground commander (well, underwater commander), not a fleet commander, and though its been a while since I saw it, I don't recall him doing anything really brilliant.

Your idea is interesting, I'll admit.

[Zixinus]

Spoiler

Okay, what the hell? At the beginning of the episode this woman was trying to steal their stuff and/or murder them, and by the end Sabine trusts her enough to openly say that Senator Organa is a rebel right in front of her? Did I miss something?

Spoiler

The bit where it is revealed that she is Sabine's sister? And that they managed to repair their relationship?

Yeah, it's not completely believable but it wasn't too bad.
Spoiler

Yeah, she shouldn't know about Organa but she probably would have figured it out by that point so it was pointless to hide it.

Who do you think they delivered the droid to?

[Rogue 9]

Spoiler

Okay, what the hell? At the beginning of the episode this woman was trying to steal their stuff and/or murder them, and by the end Sabine trusts her enough to openly say that Senator Organa is a rebel right in front of her? Did I miss something?

Spoiler

The bit where it is revealed that she is Sabine's sister? And that they managed to repair their relationship?

Yeah, it's not completely believable but it wasn't too bad.
Spoiler

Yeah, she shouldn't know about Organa but she probably would have figured it out by that point so it was pointless to hide it.

Who do you think they delivered the droid to?

They're not blood relations; they just escaped from the Academy together and had wacky hijinks as bounty hunters before she left Sabine for dead. And they delivered the droid to a standard-model astromech and some anonymous guards. It wasn't inevitable that she'd figure out they were Alderaanian.

[Galvatron]

Ackbar was on the Republic's side in the Clone Wars. We did get a chance to see him in action, during the animated series. But it was as a ground commander (well, underwater commander), not a fleet commander, and though its been a while since I saw it, I don't recall him doing anything really brilliant.

Yeah, I know. What a disappointment and a wasted opportunity.

Your idea is interesting, I'll admit.

I appreciate that. Thanks.