Lawsuit tries to apply foreign speech restrictions in U.S. court, hold Facebook liable for not censoring allegedly terro

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amigocabal
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Lawsuit tries to apply foreign speech restrictions in U.S. court, hold Facebook liable for not censoring allegedly terro

Post by amigocabal »

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/vol ... ing-pages/

Eugene Volokh wrote:Lakin v. Facebook, Inc., filed last week in New York trial court, is quite a remarkable lawsuit. Facebook, the plaintiffs say, is being used by Palestinian groups “to incite violent attacks against Israeli citizens.” The plaintiffs argue that Facebook has a legal obligation to police this material, and that a court should order Facebook to do so.
Continue Reading...

The complaint is here. The key things to notice is that this action was filed in the Supreme court of the State of New York, County of Kings, and that the only laws Facebook is alleged to have violated is the Civil Wrongs Ordinance of the State of Israel.

I wonder how the lawyers expect the court to even have subject-matter jurisdiction over this complaint. The complaint does not even cite the relevant New York statute that would authorize its courts to hear lawsuits arising from Israeli law. It would be like trying to seek an injunction against Saudi officials, in a Saudi court, arising from the U.S. Constitution's First Amendment. (notably, the complaint does not even contain the phrase "diversity jurisdiction")

I have not found any recent articles about the lawsuit aside from its filing. Maybe the court had already dismissed the lawsuit for lack of jurisdiction, which it should have done already.
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Re: Lawsuit tries to apply foreign speech restrictions in U.S. court, hold Facebook liable for not censoring allegedly t

Post by Simon_Jester »

Personally I feel ambiguous about one. The jurisdiction issue is obviously a huge deal, and while I'm not a lawyer I'm pretty sure it's a show-stopper.

But I dislike the immunity multinational corporations routinely enjoy by incorporating in countries with permissive laws and then using their economic leverage to force other countries to let them ignore or bypass those countries' own laws.

As a way of countering this, a lawsuit like this is an ineffectual joke. But it is a problem.
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Re: Lawsuit tries to apply foreign speech restrictions in U.S. court, hold Facebook liable for not censoring allegedly t

Post by JI_Joe84 »

So the Israeli's are trying to shove their laws down our throats? Seriously why we Americans don't just bomb them next time some thing goes wrong in the middle East is beyond me but it might just help, no mater what the situation turns out to be.
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Re: Lawsuit tries to apply foreign speech restrictions in U.S. court, hold Facebook liable for not censoring allegedly t

Post by Crown »

JI_Joe84 wrote:So the Israeli's are trying to shove their laws down our throats? Seriously why we Americans don't just bomb them next time some thing goes wrong in the middle East is beyond me but it might just help, no mater what the situation turns out to be.
:?:

You want to bomb people for suing? What? :lol:
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Re: Lawsuit tries to apply foreign speech restrictions in U.S. court, hold Facebook liable for not censoring allegedly t

Post by Ralin »

Crown wrote:
JI_Joe84 wrote:So the Israeli's are trying to shove their laws down our throats? Seriously why we Americans don't just bomb them next time some thing goes wrong in the middle East is beyond me but it might just help, no mater what the situation turns out to be.
:?:

You want to bomb people for suing? What? :lol:
While it's a dumb comment either way, I think the latter bit is a general statement regarding Israel's various actions towards its neighbors and ethnic minorities.
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Re: Lawsuit tries to apply foreign speech restrictions in U.S. court, hold Facebook liable for not censoring allegedly t

Post by Crown »

Ralin wrote:While it's a dumb comment either way, I think the latter bit is a general statement regarding Israel's various actions towards its neighbors and ethnic minorities.
Yeah I suppose I get it, but it's just as fucking stupid as bombing Iran or Saudi Arabia for their actions towards their neighbours and ethnic (or religious) minorities.
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Re: Lawsuit tries to apply foreign speech restrictions in U.S. court, hold Facebook liable for not censoring allegedly t

Post by Purple »

JI_Joe84 wrote:So the Israeli's are trying to shove their laws down our throats? Seriously why we Americans don't just bomb them next time some thing goes wrong in the middle East is beyond me but it might just help, no mater what the situation turns out to be.
Because that would be in violation of the 1st commandment of politics: Thau shalt not speak ill of israel lest your opponents immediately label you a nazi and your carrier be over forever.
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Re: Lawsuit tries to apply foreign speech restrictions in U.S. court, hold Facebook liable for not censoring allegedly t

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JI_Joe84 wrote:So the Israeli's are trying to shove their laws down our throats? Seriously why we Americans don't just bomb them next time some thing goes wrong in the middle East is beyond me but it might just help, no mater what the situation turns out to be.
Welcome to the world of non-US Americans. US courts and multinationals do that all the time.
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Re: Lawsuit tries to apply foreign speech restrictions in U.S. court, hold Facebook liable for not censoring allegedly t

Post by General Zod »

I'm not sure if jl's post is an amazing lack of self awareness or if he's just taking the piss.
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Re: Lawsuit tries to apply foreign speech restrictions in U.S. court, hold Facebook liable for not censoring allegedly t

Post by Edi »

I'd err on the side of taking the piss.
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Re: Lawsuit tries to apply foreign speech restrictions in U.S. court, hold Facebook liable for not censoring allegedly t

Post by Ralin »

I figure it's an expression of frustration rather than something he thinks we should literally do.
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Re: Lawsuit tries to apply foreign speech restrictions in U.S. court, hold Facebook liable for not censoring allegedly t

Post by JI_Joe84 »

Well if they don't stop deliberately pissing folks of then complain to the world when shit starts missterously exploding or getting shot up then yes. They are like spoiled brat kids, acting up and doing things no one else could do simply because they can. I'm on American that says f*ck them.
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Re: Lawsuit tries to apply foreign speech restrictions in U.S. court, hold Facebook liable for not censoring allegedly t

Post by Batman »

So essentially, they're acting like americans?
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Re: Lawsuit tries to apply foreign speech restrictions in U.S. court, hold Facebook liable for not censoring allegedly t

Post by JI_Joe84 »

Ooohhh owe! That stings. Still bomb the izzies.
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Re: Lawsuit tries to apply foreign speech restrictions in U.S. court, hold Facebook liable for not censoring allegedly t

Post by Coop D'etat »

There is nothing in the slightest bit sinister or unusual about this. The parties involved are litigating a dispute that occured in Israel thus Israeli law applies as the lex causae. They are filling suit in New York's jurisdiction because they need the judgement to be enforced in New York and thus the trial would be conducted according to New York's procedures as the lex fori. The Supreme Court of New York, has the authority to hear such a case as a residual power that courts generally have and may choice to exercise at their discretion. This is basic procedure in court cases which span accross international borders and in no way reflects some kind of American imperialism or kowtowing to Israel. Its the same process by which Finnish parties could potentially bring suit in England for example, or in a recent notable case, Honduran peasants bring suit against an American multi-national oil company in Ontario. The basic principle is that of comity, that courts will generally respect and recognize the applicablity of foreign law to foreign suits and apply to suits in their jurisdiction if there is reason to do so.


So to answer the OP. This isn't in the slightest like Saudi litigants applying US constitutional law to a Saudi case. Its an American court applying Israeli law to a case that took place in Israel but needs to be litigated in America for enforcement reasons.


Now on the other hand, there are plenty of reasons why the New York court could decline to hear the case or rule against the Israeli plaintiffs or the merits of this particular suit. In particular, the First Amendment will raise the issue of enforcement being against forum public policy. But that doesn't mean the principles involved in asking a court to apply foriegn law on American soil are suspect. They are standard methods of legal practice generally held to across the globe.
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Re: Lawsuit tries to apply foreign speech restrictions in U.S. court, hold Facebook liable for not censoring allegedly t

Post by amigocabal »

Coop D'etat wrote:There is nothing in the slightest bit sinister or unusual about this. The parties involved are litigating a dispute that occured in Israel thus Israeli law applies as the lex causae. They are filling suit in New York's jurisdiction because they need the judgement to be enforced in New York and thus the trial would be conducted according to New York's procedures as the lex fori. The Supreme Court of New York, has the authority to hear such a case as a residual power that courts generally have and may choice to exercise at their discretion. This is basic procedure in court cases which span accross international borders and in no way reflects some kind of American imperialism or kowtowing to Israel. Its the same process by which Finnish parties could potentially bring suit in England for example, or in a recent notable case, Honduran peasants bring suit against an American multi-national oil company in Ontario. The basic principle is that of comity, that courts will generally respect and recognize the applicablity of foreign law to foreign suits and apply to suits in their jurisdiction if there is reason to do so.


So to answer the OP. This isn't in the slightest like Saudi litigants applying US constitutional law to a Saudi case. Its an American court applying Israeli law to a case that took place in Israel but needs to be litigated in America for enforcement reasons.


Now on the other hand, there are plenty of reasons why the New York court could decline to hear the case or rule against the Israeli plaintiffs or the merits of this particular suit. In particular, the First Amendment will raise the issue of enforcement being against forum public policy. But that doesn't mean the principles involved in asking a court to apply foriegn law on American soil are suspect. They are standard methods of legal practice generally held to across the globe.
I do not dispute that New York can authorize its courts to hear suits arising from foreign law.

The complaint did not cite the statute or state constitutional provision giving this power to the New York judiciary. Usually, when filing a complaint, a litigant cites the law that grants the court jurisdiction to decide the merits. This web site, for example, has a template for writing complaints to be filed in New York courts, and a section titled JURISDICTION AND VENUE is on the first page, where the author would presumably cite the laws and explain why the court has jurisdiction and venue.
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Re: Lawsuit tries to apply foreign speech restrictions in U.S. court, hold Facebook liable for not censoring allegedly t

Post by Jub »

Simon_Jester wrote:Personally I feel ambiguous about one. The jurisdiction issue is obviously a huge deal, and while I'm not a lawyer I'm pretty sure it's a show-stopper.

But I dislike the immunity multinational corporations routinely enjoy by incorporating in countries with permissive laws and then using their economic leverage to force other countries to let them ignore or bypass those countries' own laws.

As a way of countering this, a lawsuit like this is an ineffectual joke. But it is a problem.
Nations can always do the same thing China has done and ban certain multinationals from their nation if they don't like their business practices. Look at how long China held google back and the hoops google was willing to jump through to finally get in. If Israel or any other nation doesn't like a corporation, especially a website, blocking unless the company decides to play ball is an option.

Most likely this is just more theatrics by Israel.
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Re: Lawsuit tries to apply foreign speech restrictions in U.S. court, hold Facebook liable for not censoring allegedly t

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Coop D'etat wrote:There is nothing in the slightest bit sinister or unusual about this. The parties involved are litigating a dispute that occured in Israel thus Israeli law applies as the lex causae. They are filling suit in New York's jurisdiction because they need the judgement to be enforced in New York and thus the trial would be conducted according to New York's procedures as the lex fori. The Supreme Court of New York, has the authority to hear such a case as a residual power that courts generally have and may choice to exercise at their discretion. This is basic procedure in court cases which span accross international borders and in no way reflects some kind of American imperialism or kowtowing to Israel. Its the same process by which Finnish parties could potentially bring suit in England for example, or in a recent notable case, Honduran peasants bring suit against an American multi-national oil company in Ontario. The basic principle is that of comity, that courts will generally respect and recognize the applicablity of foreign law to foreign suits and apply to suits in their jurisdiction if there is reason to do so.


So to answer the OP. This isn't in the slightest like Saudi litigants applying US constitutional law to a Saudi case. Its an American court applying Israeli law to a case that took place in Israel but needs to be litigated in America for enforcement reasons.


Now on the other hand, there are plenty of reasons why the New York court could decline to hear the case or rule against the Israeli plaintiffs or the merits of this particular suit. In particular, the First Amendment will raise the issue of enforcement being against forum public policy. But that doesn't mean the principles involved in asking a court to apply foriegn law on American soil are suspect. They are standard methods of legal practice generally held to across the globe.
Huh. Explained that way this is a pretty boring case.
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Re: Lawsuit tries to apply foreign speech restrictions in U.S. court, hold Facebook liable for not censoring allegedly t

Post by Elheru Aran »

Welf wrote:
Coop D'etat wrote:[snip]
So to answer the OP. This isn't in the slightest like Saudi litigants applying US constitutional law to a Saudi case. Its an American court applying Israeli law to a case that took place in Israel but needs to be litigated in America for enforcement reasons.

[snip]
Huh. Explained that way this is a pretty boring case.
What about the implications though? If a country is enforcing their law in another country's jurisdiction? Say Israel wins the suit and Facebook has to censor itself; does that mean that other countries can use the same precedent to make Facebook self-censor in so many areas it becomes pointless as a free venue for public discourse?

Also, it's an Israeli case being tried under Israeli law in an American court? Or am I reading it wrong? Because I don't see why American law wouldn't apply in an American court, especially if the case is being tried by an American judge.
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Re: Lawsuit tries to apply foreign speech restrictions in U.S. court, hold Facebook liable for not censoring allegedly t

Post by Coop D'etat »

Elheru Aran wrote:
Welf wrote:
Coop D'etat wrote:[snip]
So to answer the OP. This isn't in the slightest like Saudi litigants applying US constitutional law to a Saudi case. Its an American court applying Israeli law to a case that took place in Israel but needs to be litigated in America for enforcement reasons.

[snip]
Huh. Explained that way this is a pretty boring case.
What about the implications though? If a country is enforcing their law in another country's jurisdiction? Say Israel wins the suit and Facebook has to censor itself; does that mean that other countries can use the same precedent to make Facebook self-censor in so many areas it becomes pointless as a free venue for public discourse?

Also, it's an Israeli case being tried under Israeli law in an American court? Or am I reading it wrong? Because I don't see why American law wouldn't apply in an American court, especially if the case is being tried by an American judge.

The rule is that a country's law applies for events which took place within its own jurisdiction (there can be exceptions to this, but its the general rule). This would be a case from a cause of action from events which took place in Israel, so Israeli law would apply. Rulings coming from a Israeli case can effect an entity in America, so they can ask an American court to rule on the matter for ease of enforcement. The American court is not obligated to take the case, but may elect to do so if they feel that they are an appropriate forum for the dispute purely at their own discretion. The trial then proceeds on the basis of applying the foreign law (known as the lex causae) while the court will still use their own procedural rules to conduct the trial (known as the lex fori). They may also decline to enforce foreign law even after hearing the case if they believe that it is too far away from local norms of justice to do so (this can be a fairly high bar, its not sufficient that the two legal systems come to different conclusions or handle matters differently, its for substaintial disagreements about what would be just).

The other method is to sue in the jurisdiction where the cause of action took place, get a judgment and then request that another jurisdiction enforce said judgment. This can end up being such an involved process that its easier to hold the first trial in that jurisdiction to ensure that said jurisdiction views the judgment as legitimate and thus would be more willing to enforce it, or it can just be easier from a procedural standpoint to do it that way.

For your specific questions, suits can be brought against Facebook in America from foreign jurisdictions to the extent they could be found to have violated the law in said jurisdiction. Notably, the state of said jurisdiction is not allowed to do so in such a matter because that would be considered a penal action and one of the rules states aren't allowed to enforce penal actions outside of their soveriegnty. Also, it would be a huge wrinkle to try to get an American court to enforce something that smacks of censorship as American courts tend view free speech in absolutist terms compared to other legal systems. From reading the cause of action in this case, there is ample reason to believe it would fail or get nowhere in New York Supreme Court, but the concept of asking said court to apply an Israeli civil cause of action under Israeli law isn't outrageous.
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