U.S. Department of Education Taking a Stand Regarding Locker Rooms?

[Civil War Man]

14 or 16? Are you actually some kind of weird entity in a floating orbital cube?

I do not get it.

He's saying that if you have a daughter who's that old and doesn't know what a penis looks like, then you are either impersonating a human or you are part of one of those religious sects that lives in what can only be accurately described as a compound.

[madd0ct0r]

I think you all are massively over thinking this. There is absolutely no reason to assume hatred of alternate sexualities on part of anyone involved. If you ask me this is simply the logical outcome of the fact that most parents are very awkward when it comes to their children and sexuality. Thus they don't want their little girls coming home one day after school and asking uncomfortable questions about human genitals that they than have to face and explain. Imagine if you had a 14 or 16 or what ever year old kid and found your self in the situation of having to explain what that strange dangly thing is that one of the girls has in place of her girl parts.

I'll point out Purple isn't describing his thinking, just the thinking of a hypothetical intently uncomfortable with nudity parent. Which I'm pretty sure America has in abundance, along with porn.

[Crown]

The school already crossed the rubicon when it permitted a transgender student to participate in girls sports. Once it does that, it has de facto admitted that said student is a girl and Title IX applies.

Had they not done so, they would (and should) be facing an entirely different lawsuit.

I have to ask; am I the only one here who believes that a Transgendered woman (for my lack of proper descriptor I a referring to a male transitioning to a woman) shouldn't be allowed to participate as a woman in sports?

[Purple]

I have to ask; am I the only one here who believes that a Transgendered woman (for my lack of proper descriptor I a referring to a male transitioning to a woman) shouldn't be allowed to participate as a woman in sports?

I sort of agree. I basically think that it's fine to let the person take part in school level sports with their chosen sex since that's not really serious anything and just serves as a good way to build self esteem and stuff. But I would draw the line at professional sports.

[Crown]

I have to ask; am I the only one here who believes that a Transgendered woman (for my lack of proper descriptor I a referring to a male transitioning to a woman) shouldn't be allowed to participate as a woman in sports?

I sort of agree. I basically think that it's fine to let the person take part in school level sports with their chosen sex since that's not really serious anything and just serves as a good way to build self esteem and stuff. But I would draw the line at professional sports.

Wrestling and boxing?

[Purple]

Wrestling and boxing?

Honestly I don't think such things belong in school sports. School sports are supposed to just be fun and exercise for the kids. Not some sort of real competitive sporting thing where they can actually get hurt.

[Ralin]

Wrestling and boxing?

Honestly I don't think such things belong in school sports. School sports are supposed to just be fun and exercise for the kids. Not some sort of real competitive sporting thing where they can actually get hurt.

Football is at least as potentially injurious as either of those things and it's far more common in American schools.

Really there aren't a whole lot of sports many kids would give a shit about where you aren't risking getting hurt.

[Purple]

Wrestling and boxing?

Honestly I don't think such things belong in school sports. School sports are supposed to just be fun and exercise for the kids. Not some sort of real competitive sporting thing where they can actually get hurt.

Football is at least as potentially injurious as either of those things and it's far more common in American schools.

Really there aren't a whole lot of sports many kids would give a shit about where you aren't risking getting hurt.

What I call football is not exactly dangerous. Than again it actually involves a ball that's ball shaped and using your feet. And the same goes for running, gymnastics etc. All of them can be fun with minimal danger. Especially football.

[Alyrium Denryle]

The school already crossed the rubicon when it permitted a transgender student to participate in girls sports. Once it does that, it has de facto admitted that said student is a girl and Title IX applies.

Had they not done so, they would (and should) be facing an entirely different lawsuit.

I have to ask; am I the only one here who believes that a Transgendered woman (for my lack of proper descriptor I a referring to a male transitioning to a woman) shouldn't be allowed to participate as a woman in sports?

You might not be the only one, but I will generally be here to tell you and the others to go fuck yourselves. Seriously, if you dont even know the proper terms, how the ever-loving fuck do you expect to have an informed opinion on that issue?

[Batman]

What I think Crown is getting at is that as males are on average more physically performant than females males-transitioning-to-female may retain that advantage and thus have an unfair edge in competitive sports. Or I could be completely wrong.

[Napoleon the Clown]

The school already crossed the rubicon when it permitted a transgender student to participate in girls sports. Once it does that, it has de facto admitted that said student is a girl and Title IX applies.

Had they not done so, they would (and should) be facing an entirely different lawsuit.

I have to ask; am I the only one here who believes that a Transgendered woman (for my lack of proper descriptor I a referring to a male transitioning to a woman) shouldn't be allowed to participate as a woman in sports?

The term you're looking for is transwoman.

To answer why the notion of disallowing a transwoman to compete with other women, I'll go over a small amount of what transitioning entails. Hormone therapy involves medication that blocks testosterone. That is the hormone that causes a great deal of the difference in muscle mass in cismales. Cismale being the term for someone assigned male at birth and identifies as male. Muscle mass will decrease some as a result. Additionally, hormone therapy includes taking estrogen. I may be mistaken, but creams and patches are one of the better options for this. These factors combined will make a big difference in musculature. The broadened shoulders won't go away completely, but that's a bone structure thing and doesn't affect athletic ability to a meaningful degree. The notion that a transwoman is going to have an advantage over a ciswoman is incorrect.

[Alyrium Denryle]

Napoleon got it in one.

There is not much difference between a ciswoman and a transwoman after transition has gone to an appreciable extent. For something like wrestling, there is already a way to deal with the rest. Weight class. My cousin for example is a good case in point. She is a ciswoman. She went to high school in a place such that she was the only girl on the girls wrestling team. She got folded in with the boys wrestling team as a result, and proceeded to kick large amounts of ass, because they only had her wrestle against tiny dudes on the other team. Yes, they exist.

This is a sport where one might think women would be at a disadvantage, but provided mass is controlled for, it is not that big a problem. She had to work harder to put on the necessary muscle mass, sure. But a transwoman is going to be in a similar position to a ciswoman in that respect because they lose muscle mass.

Other sports? Say Basketball? A transwoman might be a bit taller on average. Oh No! A taller person playing basketball! THE HORROR! Baseball? Not much difference there either. They are using a different bat, maybe. The list goes on.

[Purple]

In that case I stand corrected.

[Crown]

I have to ask; am I the only one here who believes that a Transgendered woman (for my lack of proper descriptor I a referring to a male transitioning to a woman) shouldn't be allowed to participate as a woman in sports?

You might not be the only one, but I will generally be here to tell you and the others to go fuck yourselves. Seriously, if you dont even know the proper terms, how the ever-loving fuck do you expect to have an informed opinion on that issue?

Calm down precious, I didn't call her a Shemale or anything that could possibly be crude, and I was off from 'Transgendered Woman' to 'Transwoman'. Bit of fucking perspective yeah?

Napoleon got it in one.

There is not much difference between a ciswoman and a transwoman after transition has gone to an appreciable extent.

And would the transition have reached said 'appreciable extent' in High School? How long does it take? I consider myself a rational human being, if you can provide some kind of objective evidence I'll either change my mind or you can call me on my bullshit.

For something like wrestling, there is already a way to deal with the rest. Weight class. My cousin for example is a good case in point. She is a ciswoman. She went to high school in a place such that she was the only girl on the girls wrestling team. She got folded in with the boys wrestling team as a result, and proceeded to kick large amounts of ass, because they only had her wrestle against tiny dudes on the other team. Yes, they exist.

What a well sourced and factually laden anecdote!

This is a sport where one might think women would be at a disadvantage, but provided mass is controlled for, it is not that big a problem. She had to work harder to put on the necessary muscle mass, sure. But a transwoman is going to be in a similar position to a ciswoman in that respect because they lose muscle mass.

Other sports? Say Basketball? A transwoman might be a bit taller on average. Oh No! A taller person playing basketball! THE HORROR! Baseball? Not much difference there either. They are using a different bat, maybe. The list goes on.

I was specifically referring to contact sports.

[Simon_Jester]

Concerns about fairness in contact sports are probably a moot point.

Most American high schools I'm familiar with don't have a lot of female contact sports teams. It's hardly unheard of, but there are nearly 1.1 million boys playing football in America, and only about 1500 girls playing it. About a quarter million boys in wrestling, and about 11000 girls.

Most other sports are more evenly divided- but aren't contact sports or aren't contact to anything like the same degree.

All in all, of the several million high school athletes in the US, I doubt more than a few hundred- maybe a few thousand- are trans, so I would bet on any statistical advantage those handful of athletes enjoy being totally swamped by the larger variability and diversity of the cis population.

And that's if there IS any advantage, which would probably depend on case by case things. For instance, if the trans athlete in question went on drugs to delay puberty and started taking estrogen at fourteen or whatever, odds are they're not in any meaningful sense enjoying a physical advantage over a typical female athlete.

[Alyrium Denryle]

And would the transition have reached said 'appreciable extent' in High School? How long does it take? I consider myself a rational human being, if you can provide some kind of objective evidence I'll either change my mind or you can call me on my bullshit.

10 years ago, I would have said "no". But now, more and more parents are supportive of trans teenagers, and start HRT (hormone replacement therapy) in the teenage years or earlier (when earlier, they usually elect to hold off puberty chemically until such time as they are sure, which will usually begin in the teens and HRT can begin without having to counteract the wrong puberty at all) so yes. HRT works pretty quickly. For someone who has been on it post-puberty, you are looking at a year or two for most effects with muscle mass dropping by year three or earlier. But for trans teenagers who started earlier, they may not have gone through a cisgender puberty at all, or it was chemically suspended part way through. For them, they dont develop male muscle mass at all.

For a teenage transwoman who is in girl's sports, the chance that they are not at least on puberty blockers or outright HRT is pretty minimal.

I was specifically referring to contact sports.

Which is one of the reasons I mentioned my cousin. You should have been more specific.

For most contact sports (wrestling, for example) there is not going to be a girls team at the highschool level, so any young woman who wants to participate will be on the boys team and your concerns are thus completely moot. In college or professional sports, the majority of transwomen who are going to be on the girls team will be on HRT and will have been on HRT for a protracted period. Thus also rendering your concerns moot.

[Esquire]

EDIT: Ninja'd, people post fast here.

[trekky0623]

The Olympics mandate two years of hormone therapy before one can compete in a gender class other than their birth gender. But given that we're talking about high school sports and not the Olympics, I would say that the chances are quite likely that a transgender student who has been taking hormone therapy for a year or so is probably able to compete as their chosen gender.

[Ralin]

The Olympics mandate two years of hormone therapy before one can compete in a gender class other than their birth gender.

A number which IIRC was pulled out of someone's ass with little to no attention to the relevant medical science or individual sports. The best you can really say about it is that it IS a mandated standard instead of the previous no policy/ad hoc decisions.

[trekky0623]

A number which IIRC was pulled out of someone's ass with little to no attention to the relevant medical science or individual sports. The best you can really say about it is that it IS a mandated standard instead of the previous no policy/ad hoc decisions.

This paper from the Journal of Endocrinology & Metabolism claims that in MTF transgender persons, changes in body fat distribution and muscle mass reach their maximum effect by 2–3 years and 1–2 years, respectively, and in FTM cases, maximization of the same effects can take as much as 2–5 years (p. 3145). I wouldn't say it's complete bullshit; two years seems like a reasonable amount of time for the Olympics to mandate in order to minimize potential unfairness when competing with others of your gender.