BattleTech invades nBSG Colonies

[Balrog]

Inspired by the other thread but a bit more clear-cut and simple. The Twelve Colonies, whose position has been moved to a few dozen lightyears outside the "borders" of the Inner Sphere, get invaded by various states from BattleTech; their objective is to avoid being conquered and come out of one of the following conflicts still retaining their independence.

For the first scenario, they have to try and hold off the Star League at its height from conquering them. Second, they are set against one of the Successor States during the middle of the Succession Wars (we can go round-robin and consider how each one would fare in their own attempt to conquer the Colonies). Finally, assume the Colonies are placed in the path of the invading Clans around 3050, and the Clanners decide to conquer them first before continuing on to the Inner Sphere.

[Tribble]

Funny thing is I'm not sure that the Clans would immediately invade the nBSG colonies, especially if Clan Wolf was the first Clan to encounter them. Having an unknown group with superior technology unexpectedly appear on the scene is precisely the kind of thing that Warden Clans were always worried about. I could see the Crusader Clans saying "to hell with it!" and wanting attack right away, but the Warden Clans would want to halt and thoroughly analyse the situation first. Should the Warden Clans win that particular argument they might end up opening up diplomatic relations with the nBSG colonies rather than invade in order to learn more about them. Hell, the entire Inner Sphere invasion might be put on hold as the Warden Clans would be constantly yelling "We told you so!" to everyone within earshot.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Hmm...well, if the Colonies have to fight the Star League at it's full strength, then jump drives or no, once the SL gets mobilised the Colonies are going to be overrun. The SL could muster what, something like 6000 WarShips? Against ~120 Battlestars and an unknown number of escorts. They may well be able to hold them off for a while, but eventually they're going to start taking losses they can't replace easily.

Add to that the fact that the SL is most definitely not the enemy that the Colonial Fleet was built to fight. The SL use capital ships in direct combat an awful lot more than the Cylons do. And I have no freaking idea what Naval Lasers and N-PPC's will do to Colonial hulls.

Once the Fleet gets overrun, the Colonial ground forces (which we see bugger-all of) almost certainly don't have an answer for BattleMechs, so any ground campaign is going to be bloody for the Colonies and probably unsuccessful.

As for the Clans? That's a different kettle of fish. They still have SL technology but nowhere near the numbers, either in space or on the ground. Against twelve populated, industrialised, well-defended worlds? I think the Colonies would be able to fend them off, not easily perhaps but I think they'd merge victorious.

Successor States? Not a chance. Given that they have to jump in to Zenith/Nadir points or use Lagrange pirate points, and the piss-poor acceleration of their JumpShips, they can be intercepted hours or days away from a planet. And the Colonies never signed that convention that says JumpShips can't be targeted.

[Tribble]

Well, even if the Colonies' ground forces were only equivalent to our modern forces, they'd still pose quite a challenge. As was discussed in another post, Mechs are generally not that effective against combined armed tactics. Especially Battletech Mechs. Most of their weapons are line of sight with an effective range of a couple hundred metres. Even their "long-range" missiles can only go a kilometre or two. With modern tanks, missles, artillery, rockets etc the nBSG ground forces would be able to fight the Battlemechs far outside their effective range, and would probably inflict heavy casualties. In fact the SLDF's best tactic would be to avoid a ground war altogether and just bombard the Colonies from orbit until they unconditionally surrendered.

[Tribble]

Also, ground warfare is only prevalent in BattleTech because after the Star League fell no one had the industrial capacity to produce more than a handful of warships. The Successor states practically destroyed themselves in the Successor Wars, and the Clans simply weren't big enough industry wise. Plus, no one could afford to lay waste to a planet anymore since it contained precious resources and industries. However, the Star League at its height had more than enough industrial capability to produce thousands of warships, and it wouldn't think twice about glassing a few planets and studying the wreckage later if it thought that was the most expedient way to win.

[Q99]

Well, even if the Colonies' ground forces were only equivalent to our modern forces, they'd still pose quite a challenge. As was discussed in another post, Mechs are generally not that effective against combined armed tactics. Especially Battletech Mechs. Most of their weapons are line of sight with an effective range of a couple hundred metres. Even their "long-range" missiles can only go a kilometre or two. With modern tanks, missles, artillery, rockets etc the nBSG ground forces would be able to fight the Battlemechs far outside their effective range, and would probably inflict heavy casualties. In fact the SLDF's best tactic would be to avoid a ground war altogether and just bombard the Colonies from orbit until they unconditionally surrendered.

It's not like Btech does have artillery with multi-kilometer range, Arrow IVs and Long Toms, it's just not as prevalent.

The armor technology and firepower is well above modern- modern tank cannons deal a fairly small amount of damage, even a battle armor can take a number of hits. This doesn't matter in some cases, if you can bombard from out of range, but it does in others.

Aerospace fighters are the real unit that stands out, as they are essentially flying tanks only marginally less protected than mechs, and not so easy to avoid conflict with. Anti-air weaponry is rarely designed to deal with heavily armored units.

Successor States? Not a chance. Given that they have to jump in to Zenith/Nadir points or use Lagrange pirate points, and the piss-poor acceleration of their JumpShips, they can be intercepted hours or days away from a planet. And the Colonies never signed that convention that says JumpShips can't be targeted.

Depends on when, after the clan contact the Successor states got into warship production again, and while their fleets aren't star league big, they do have fleets.

[Eternal_Freedom]

The OP said "during the middle of the Succession Wars" which if I remember my dates right, means around 2850-2900 or so.

[Tribble]

It's not like Btech does have artillery with multi-kilometer range, Arrow IVs and Long Toms, it's just not as prevalent.

They also have tanks and infantry as well, but apparently they are quite rare because they are hardly mentioned. And whenever an artillery piece is mentioned, it's invariably involved in some kind of ambush and everyone treats it as a dire threat until the main character/s take it out. BattleMechs would be in for a real surprise if they had to face the numbers of artillery present in a modern army.

The armor technology and firepower is well above modern- modern tank cannons deal a fairly small amount of damage, even a battle armor can take a number of hits. This doesn't matter in some cases, if you can bombard from out of range, but it does in others.

Light Mechs can be destroyed by sustained .50 calibre machine gun fire. While Heavy / Assault Mechs would take a number of hits to bring down, the point is that they would not be able to properly engage a modern army. The Mechs will take damage, and unless they are somehow able close the range they are going to sustain heavy casualties. The only instance I can think of where Mechs might force the issue of range is if they are terrorizing civilians and attacking cities, since the nBSG Colonies might be hesitant in bombarding their own cities. On the other hand, knocking down buildings on top of Mechs would be a pretty good way of taking them out...

Aerospace fighters are the real unit that stands out, as they are essentially flying tanks only marginally less protected than mechs, and not so easy to avoid conflict with. Anti-air weaponry is rarely designed to deal with heavily armored units.

Note that they are Aerospace fighters. If any of them survive the space battle and participate in a ground assault unchallenged, they would pose a significant threat. On the other hand, if the invading force has already achieved total air/space superiority, there really is no point in launching a ground invasion at all. Why bother sending troops to the surface for an invasion when you could simply nuke cities from orbit until the defender unconditionally surrenders? The Successor States and Clans generally avoided civilian targets because surviving industry is precious, but this wouldn't be a problem for the SLDF.

Depends on when, after the clan contact the Successor states got into warship production again, and while their fleets aren't star league big, they do have fleets.

There were literally zero warships left in the Inner Sphere after the first couple of succession wars, apart from a couple of derelicts. There was a period where they weren't even able to build jumpships anymore, which is why they signed that convection banning the deliberate targeting of jumpships. Hell, most planets couldn't even build Mechs anymore, and if it weren't for them stumbling upon a Star-League era data cache they would have continued to decline. While they have been able to start warship production against since the Clan invasion, they are limited to producing only a 1-2 per year. The InnerSphere would have zero change of successfully invading nBSG Colonies after the Star League fell.

As for the Clans, ~400 warships took part in the Exodus, but only ~260 warships survived the Exodus Civil War. After that, the Clans were able to build more, ableit slowly. By the time of the Clan Invasion they had somewhere ~300-400 warships or so. If they were to launch an all-out attack with all their warships at once they could potentially win against the nBSG Colonies, if only due to sheer numbers.

[Simon_Jester]

Where's the cite on .50 caliber machine gun fire?

[Batman]

'Lethal Heritage' ch16 explicitely calls the MGs on a Phoenix Hawk .50 cal.

[Balrog]

Machine guns in BattleTech technically cover a wide range of weapons, including ones we would normally classify as autocannons, which makes a bit more sense in their ability to damage the hitpoints armor of what are in most cases reconnaissance vehicles.

Also while 'Mechs get far more attention BTech does pay lip service to the idea of combined arms; a Federated Suns RCT has just one 'Mech regiment and half a dozen or more conventional regiments backing it up.

But for the second scenario I'm thinking more specifically during the latter part of the Third Succession War.

[Tribble]

But for the second scenario I'm thinking more specifically during the latter part of the Third Succession War.

Well then... whatever Successor State foolish enough to take on the Twelve Colonies is going to get curbstomped. Without any viable warships their jumpships/dropships would be slaughtered by the Colonial fleet. Not that there would be much of a fleet- by this time jumpships had become so rare and irreplaceable that there was a treaty signed by all the Successor States banning them as military targets. And the Successor state could only afford to send a small portion of its forces as the majority would be tied up fighting the Successor War.

Hell, given the state and condition of the Inner Sphere fleets at this time the nBSG Colonies might very well mistake an invasion fleet as a fleet of refugee ships.

[Q99]

The OP said "during the middle of the Succession Wars" which if I remember my dates right, means around 2850-2900 or so.

Ok, then their only space combat assets are dropships and fighters, which is quite insufficient to even hope of taking on the colonies.

About the best they could do is load up lots of fighter carrying dropships, which strikes me as a limited approach.

Light Mechs can be destroyed by sustained .50 calibre machine gun fire. While Heavy / Assault Mechs would take a number of hits to bring down, the point is that they would not be able to properly engage a modern army. The Mechs will take damage, and unless they are somehow able close the range they are going to sustain heavy casualties. The only instance I can think of where Mechs might force the issue of range is if they are terrorizing civilians and attacking cities, since the nBSG Colonies might be hesitant in bombarding their own cities. On the other hand, knocking down buildings on top of Mechs would be a pretty good way of taking them out...

Battletech armor is funky in how it handles projectiles, due to it's ablative properties. It can be hurt by quantities of *relatively* small caliber weapon fire if it's in good quantity, but as one scales up the weaponry, it's efficiency improves. Iirc, a modern tank cannon is rated as only doing 2 or 3 damage points- trying to take out mechs with modern tanks is a very un-fun game for the tanks, even a light mech can shrug good quantities of hits.


We also have an unusual situation where the rules are a useful guide for at least some aspects, because the novel writers are known to use them for how much damage a mech takes (i.e. a laser 'boils off a half ton of armor' in a book when in game terms it removes half a ton's worth of damage points).

Note that they are Aerospace fighters. If any of them survive the space battle and participate in a ground assault unchallenged, they would pose a significant threat. On the other hand, if the invading force has already achieved total air/space superiority, there really is no point in launching a ground invasion at all. Why bother sending troops to the surface for an invasion when you could simply nuke cities from orbit until the defender unconditionally surrenders? The Successor States and Clans generally avoided civilian targets because surviving industry is precious, but this wouldn't be a problem for the SLDF.

Agreed.

While they have been able to start warship production against since the Clan invasion, they are limited to producing only a 1-2 per year.

True, but that's per state, and Comstar has a pretty good sized fleet. By the 3060s, I think the Inner Sphere's around a hundred warships.

[SAMAS]

'Lethal Heritage' ch16 explicitely calls the MGs on a Phoenix Hawk .50 cal.

There's a bit of a "but" to that now.

You see, BattleTech recently released a PDF Technical Readout for, of all eras, 1945. With rules for using WWII-era units with BattleTech rules. And yes, while they do confirm that a .50 cal still counts as a machinegun, it now only counts as an infantry support machinegun, which does less than a point of damage to Military-Grade armor(compared to two points for a standard machinegun, one for Light, and three for heavy). On top of that, Standard machinegun ammunition weighs nearly twice as much per shot.

[starfury]

You see, BattleTech recently released a PDF Technical Readout for, of all eras, 1945. With rules for using WWII-era units with BattleTech rules. And yes, while they do confirm that a .50 cal still counts as a machinegun, it now only counts as an infantry support machinegun, which does less than a point of damage to Military-Grade armor(compared to two points for a standard machinegun, one for Light, and three for heavy). On top of that, Standard machinegun ammunition weighs nearly twice as much per shot.

Didn't they also released nebula california recently with the standard archtype of star wars factions, aka stormtroopers can't aim tropes and "super slow' turbolasers, aka more less advanced version of battletech technolgy

[Tribble]

Upon further reflection I'm not sure the nBSG Colonies would have much use for a large ground army. They must have known that if the Cylons were ever able to breach their defences in orbit their planets would be nuked, which would make a large ground army pretty irrelevant.

True, but that's per state, and Comstar has a pretty good sized fleet.

Right, I should have been more specific as that's what I meant. And I forgot about Comstar's fleet, though I imagine they wouldn't be participating.

By the 3060s, I think the Inner Sphere's around a hundred warships.

That would mean that each Successor State would have ~10-20 warships by the 3060s. No chance that an individual Successor State is going to win. Even if the entire Inner Sphere combined their forces, they'd still be outnumbered.

Btw, is there any info on the industrial capacity of the nBSG Colonies? How many Battlestars and other craft were they building each year? I wouldn't be surprised if the Twelve Colonies matched or exceeded the entire industrial capacity of the Inner Sphere, at least when it comes to spacecraft.

Really, the only interesting fight would involve the Clans. The SLDF is guaranteed to win due to sheer numbers if nothing else, while the Successor States wouldn't stand a chance.

Assuming that the Clans decide to immediately launch an all out invasion, how do you think that would play out? Do the Clans follow the same honour codes in space as they do on the ground? Would there be a bidding process, and would they only fight one on one with other warships? Or would they be willing to cast aside those traditions as the nBSG Colonies fall under the "external threat" the Warden Clans were worried about?

[Eternal_Freedom]

I can't recall if it has any basis in canon, but there's a common theory that the 120 Battlestar fleet at the Fall was after a long series of major defence cutbacks. So it's possible they'd have large numbers of mothballed ships that they could reactivate in a (relatively) short period of time to gain reinforcements after the intial attack. Not ideal, but faster than buildign new ships from the ground-up anyways.

Of course, that's only really useful in the Clans Invasion scenario. Third Succession War they won't need it and SLDF-Invasion they won't have time.

[Batman]

Um-how exactly are the SLDF guaranteed to win? Nevermind the fact that on the ground they're toast against anybody with post-WW2 technology, they have the same 'can't jump very far' , 'can't jump anywhere but null-gravity jump points' and 'need eons to recharge' problems the Clans and Successor States have while the Colonials can jump pretty much anywhere they want on short notice and unlike the SLDF have jump drive on the fighter level, the Colonials are used to and equipped for dealing with nukes, which last I checked were a big 'We're screwed' In Btech.

[Eternal_Freedom]

It's more the sheer number of WarShips the SLDF can muster, something like fifty times what the Colonies have. I'm assuming that if the SLDF are going to invade they aren't going to half-ass it and will bring enough forces to do the job.

[Batman]

Warships that lumber about the system at a G or two while the Colonials can have Raptors lob nukes at them with impunity.

[Q99]

Warships that lumber about the system at a G or two while the Colonials can have Raptors lob nukes at them with impunity.

Warships do have point defenses and fighters of their own.

If the raptors attack with nukes, you'll need enough to saturate the defenses and make sure the nukes hit or you're just giving the anti-missile defenses a workout. And they gotta worry about laser fire while doing so.

So they're slow, but they're still prickly targets, so to speak. The nBSG forces have the initiative but still will have to work to put them down.

That would mean that each Successor State would have ~10-20 warships by the 3060s. No chance that an individual Successor State is going to win. Even if the entire Inner Sphere combined their forces, they'd still be outnumbered.

Yep. There's probably some crossover point at which they'd have a chance, but I'm not sure when.

[Batman]

Warships that lumber about the system at a G or two while the Colonials can have Raptors lob nukes at them with impunity.

Warships do have point defenses and fighters of their own.

Designed to deal with BT threats. nBSG nukes seem to be roughly the same scale as real world ones, so tiny by BT standards.

If the raptors attack with nukes, you'll need enough to saturate the defenses and make sure the nukes hit or you're just giving the anti-missile defenses a workout. And they gotta worry about laser fire while doing so.

Given how sucky BT antimissile defenses are anything upwards of three should do the trick. But let's make certain-every parasite craft the Colonials have fires four nuclear-tipped missiles. Note that this is enough to eat the Star League without the Colonial capital ships so much as firing a single shot.

So they're slow, but they're still prickly targets, so to speak. The nBSG forces have the initiative but still will have to work to put them down.

They're pushovers. The Colonials can attack when they want, wherever they want, and there's nothing the BT Forces can do about it. Even if we do assume they stand a chance on the ground (which is highly doubtful) they'll never get there because the nBSG force can take them apart in space at their leasure.

[Q99]

Designed to deal with BT threats. nBSG nukes seem to be roughly the same scale as real world ones, so tiny by BT standards.

Depends on the missile, LRMs and such aren't exactly huge. An anti-missile system is designed to shoot down good quantities from volleys of small missiles.

They're pushovers. The Colonials can attack when they want, wherever they want, and there's nothing the BT Forces can do about it. Even if we do assume they stand a chance on the ground (which is highly doubtful) they'll never get there because the nBSG force can take them apart in space at their leasure.

They can still blast whoever tries to attack with lasers, naval PPCs, and similar. They can jump in and out, but once in range, they're in range.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Warships that lumber about the system at a G or two while the Colonials can have Raptors lob nukes at them with impunity.

And we see them do this how often? As best I can recall, once, in the finale against the Colony, a last-ditch desperate effort and even that wasn't a "jump in, fire nukes, jump out" attack.

We see the Cylons do it, but as was repeatedly shown in the series, the Cylons had much better FTL navigation computers.

Also, BSG nukes seem to be relatively low-yield. Fighter-sized missiles are in the 50 kiloton range or so. From what I can recall of BT space combat, a hit from one of their Killer Whale nuclear missiles is enough to completely destroy a million-ton armoured WarShip, which suggests a much higher yield. Thus, a few BSg nukes making it past their defences may not be enough for a guaranteed kill.

[SAMAS]

Warships that lumber about the system at a G or two while the Colonials can have Raptors lob nukes at them with impunity.

Warships do have point defenses and fighters of their own.

Designed to deal with BT threats. nBSG nukes seem to be roughly the same scale as real world ones, so tiny by BT standards.

Not really, they have Anti-Missile Systems for small stuff, which can hit targets as small as LRMs. Which, to be fair, they 're gonna need.

If the raptors attack with nukes, you'll need enough to saturate the defenses and make sure the nukes hit or you're just giving the anti-missile defenses a workout. And they gotta worry about laser fire while doing so.

Given how sucky BT antimissile defenses are anything upwards of three should do the trick. But let's make certain-every parasite craft the Colonials have fires four nuclear-tipped missiles. Note that this is enough to eat the Star League without the Colonial capital ships so much as firing a single shot.

To do that, they'd have to get past the SLDF's Aerospace fighters. Honestly, it's what's keeping this from in fact being a total curbstomp.