the BREAKING NEWS debate thread

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the BREAKING NEWS debate thread

Post by BoredShirtless »

This thread serves to debate the posts in the Breaking News thread. Keep the discussion here, and the news thread clean.~CO
Kamakazie Sith wrote:
Why do you trust this site more than others? Like CNN for example.....
Trust CNN? You're kidding right? CNN is supplied info by the coalition military! I trust CNN as about as much as I trust Iraqi media.

What is it about this site that earned your trust?[/quote]
Kamakazie Sith wrote: Look, this is a war ok? Everone has got many reasons to lie through their ass, especially those directly involved. So I take the party who has the least number of reasons to lie, and assign them the most credibility.
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Post by BoredShirtless »

Enlightenment wrote:
BoredShirtless wrote:Looks like Jordan are playing favorites:
Isn't this an open secret?

When H1 and H2 were captured it was reported that the US forces had been inserted from Jordan.
Reported by whom?
Enlightenment wrote:
Success of destroying Baghdad air defense:
Doesn't seem to be of any importance at present given the remarkable lack of US aircraft shot down by Iraqi AD.
Think about air support the coalition ground forces get. The Iraqi's would want to have their air defense intact for when the ground force gets to Baghdad.
Enlightenment wrote:
Are heads already rolling?:
If Franks gets extra 'help' in the next while then the Russians' thoughts on US staffing would have a bit more credibility. Time will tell...


These guys have dug up quite a bit of accurate information from time to time but it's burried within a pile of garbage; telling what's real and what's disinformation is not exactly easy.
Agreed. But that goes with the mainstream media too.
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Post by Axis Kast »

Is anybody placing a great deal of stock in the Russian reports? I'm very skeptical of their validity.
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Post by BoredShirtless »

Axis Kast wrote:Is anybody placing a great deal of stock in the Russian reports? I'm very skeptical of their validity.
Why?
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Post by The Duchess of Zeon »

BoredShirtless wrote:
Axis Kast wrote:Is anybody placing a great deal of stock in the Russian reports? I'm very skeptical of their validity.
Why?
I believe Rob Wilson explained in detail already why they couldn't be valid.
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Post by Axis Kast »

I seriously doubt their validity. Unless they mistook the 507th as a fuel convoy, they've been reporting seperate incidents about which I have heard nothing.

Keep in mind that these are the same people who consistently reported downed NATO aircraft in Kosovo and paint celebratory colors around supposed Russian victories in Chechnya.
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Post by Vympel »

Montcalm wrote: And a bus full of civilian has aledgedly been destroyed by American,yeah right aljazeera what a reliable source :x
Oh? NATO blew up a train and a convoy of civvies in Kosovo, they denied it vigorously for a while, called it propaganda- and the media faithfully acted as a mouthpiece- then admitted it. I don't see why Western media should get high marks for objectivity or reliability.
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Post by BoredShirtless »

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:
BoredShirtless wrote:
Axis Kast wrote:Is anybody placing a great deal of stock in the Russian reports? I'm very skeptical of their validity.
Why?
I believe Rob Wilson explained in detail already why they couldn't be valid.
How so?
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Post by BoredShirtless »

Axis Kast wrote:I seriously doubt their validity. Unless they mistook the 507th as a fuel convoy, they've been reporting seperate incidents about which I have heard nothing.
Ah so if it isn't on CNN, then it didn't happen :roll:
Axis Kast wrote: Keep in mind that these are the same people who consistently reported downed NATO aircraft in Kosovo and paint celebratory colors around supposed Russian victories in Chechnya.
It's important to read various sources form various countries, to get a more balanced picture. Do you disagree with this? If so, why?
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Post by Vympel »

Axis Kast wrote: Keep in mind that these are the same people who consistently reported downed NATO aircraft in Kosovo and paint celebratory colors around supposed Russian victories in Chechnya.
Venik and iraqwar.ru are seperate entities. Also, I haven't seen him paint celebratory colours around many supposed victories, though I have seen support for the war (unsurprising). His Kosovo reports were extremely dubious, but then again, this iraqwar.ru stuff isn't him.

As long as he has excellent pdfs to download, I'll continue to visit.
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Post by Axis Kast »

I get most of my news from about five sources: CNN, FOX, MSNBC, the Sydney Morning Herald, and the BBC. From time to time I'll read some Guardian articles.

Why do I mistrust the foreign sources? For the same reason I deny that the French have covered this war properly. Whereas American news is admittadly biased in favor of the war and paints a largely optimistic picture, the French media is consistently bashing our invasion of Iraq and has done nothing but played up the pesimistic. Russia spewed too much garbage concerning Kosovo and Checnya to carry legitimacy here.

I was watching French news on television - I get an international channel here - and they consistently refered to the capture of American POWs as "revenge" and spoke only of "stunning losses" for the Americans, not any progress.

I admit I'm a bit perturbed at having heard that the Al Faw penninsular fell as early as Friday or that Basra was in our hands on Saturday, but at least CNN and BBC aren't feeding me trash designed to make America look bad. The French channel I've got doesn't do what one would exactly call "objective reporting."

And keep in mind you're talking to someone who regularly follows the news in Africa and acknowledges that most reliable sources are written from a unique perspective: that of exiles and emigrants, not Africans themselves.

I understand objective reporting when I see it. Russian and French sources have proved to be the least.
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Post by BoredShirtless »

Axis Kast wrote:I get most of my news from about five sources: CNN, FOX, MSNBC, the Sydney Morning Herald, and the BBC. From time to time I'll read some Guardian articles.

Why do I mistrust the foreign sources? For the same reason I deny that the French have covered this war properly. Whereas American news is admittadly biased in favor of the war and paints a largely optimistic picture, the French media is consistently bashing our invasion of Iraq and has done nothing but played up the pesimistic.
Let me organise what you just said. You trust your media even though they're pro war, while mistrust the French because they're anti war? Are you for real? Look, get this through your noggin: don't trust either! By themselves anyway. Wait until everyone is saying the same thing before trusting anything.
Axis Kast wrote: Russia spewed too much garbage concerning Kosovo and Checnya to carry legitimacy here.
Russia would have had their propaganda machine in overdrive seeing as it did involve them, don't you think? Are you honest enough to extend that a little to this war?

Kosovo: proof of "too much garbage"? What is "too much garbage"? The numerous NATO fuckups/crimes in Serbia covered up, was that an ok level of garbage?
Axis Kast wrote: I was watching French news on television - I get an international channel here - and they consistently refered to the capture of American POWs as "revenge" and spoke only of "stunning losses" for the Americans, not any progress.
Adding emotional langauge to a report doesn't invalidate the information contained.
Axis Kast wrote: I admit I'm a bit perturbed at having heard that the Al Faw penninsular fell as early as Friday or that Basra was in our hands on Saturday, but at least CNN and BBC aren't feeding me trash designed to make America look bad.
Wait. It's ok to lie about key facts like capturing a city, but not ok to give an opinion on POWs? :roll:
Axis Kast wrote: I understand objective reporting when I see it.
No you don't. You see only that which fits between the stripes of your national flag
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Post by Kelly Antilles »

PEOPLE!!! THIS THREAD IS FOR BREAKING NEWS ONLY! TAKE YOUR ARGUMENTS OUTSIDE OF THE FUCKING THREAD!
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Post by Axis Kast »

Let me organize what you just said. You trust your media even though they're pro war, while mistrust the French because they're anti war? Are you for real? Look, get this through your noggin: don't trust either! By themselves anyway. Wait until everyone is saying the same thing before trusting anything.
It’s choosing between two distinctly opposite points of view. The Anglo-American position is one of optimism while the French deliver only thinly veiled criticism.

I’m not going to live in paranoia, fearful that every news outlet out there is lying to me. I take things with a grain of salt, but I’m not going to sit down and watch the French bash my country and suggest that executed prisoners-of-war got some of their own medicine, no.

And who said I didn’t wait for repeat-news before fully accepting a given scenario? You might try that, too. You’d realize that by comparison with all other networks, Russia’s offer the least-verifiable news.
Russia would have had their propaganda machine in overdrive seeing as it did involve them, don't you think? Are you honest enough to extend that a little to this war?

Kosovo: proof of "too much garbage"? What is "too much garbage"? The numerous NATO fuckups/crimes in Serbia covered up, was that an ok level of garbage?
Russia’s propaganda machine is constantly in overdrive. Some of the reports coming out of the Russian media – purportedly courtesy of Russian military “specialists” are absolutely unverifiable. I’ve not seen them repeated by any other news outlets in the United States, Australia, and Great Britain. Not even the French network was prepared to cover any of the stories some of the IraqWar.ru posts detailed.

The Kosovo situation was too clouded to follow Russian sources. The same is true of Chechnya. These might be excusable, but they leave a bad taste. Their sensationalized reports on Iraq are quite similar.
Adding emotional langauge to a report doesn't invalidate the information contained.
It certainly does when that information is similar to or even worse than that in Western media.

The French were running constant stories on Gulf War illness just before the war when certain Western sources – ie, my local newspaper – had covered them in detail – with relevant interviews – months earlier. And with less accusatory language. Their treatment of the current situation with American prisoners-of-war was abominable. You’re telling me that I’m somehow a corrupted fool if I don’t sit here and watch 10% news and 90% posturing? They offer less than half the news of CNN or BBC anyway.
Wait. It's ok to lie about key facts like capturing a city, but not ok to give an opinion on POWs?
All these networks “lie.” It’s not necessarily intentional. Somebody makes a mistake. And if you think I’m blind to that, it’s a grave mistake. I follow three networks here at home as well as up to three foreign news sources – BBC, Sydney Morning Herald, Guardian – for most of my information.

But at least these networks later acknowledge their mistakes. Russia’s made some, too. They’ve continued making them for two days – ie, the fuel tanker claim.
No you don't. You see only that which fits between the stripes of your national flag.
I can’t change your opinion of me. Why enter into debate if you’ve already made up your mind?
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Post by Vympel »

Kelly Antilles wrote:PEOPLE!!! THIS THREAD IS FOR BREAKING NEWS ONLY! TAKE YOUR ARGUMENTS OUTSIDE OF THE FUCKING THREAD!
If I and Col. Orlik had been given the mod powers over this forum like we decided basically yesterday, I definitely would split this topic. Unfortunately, I'm helpless right now. Don't know what's going on. Only the supermods have Politics jurisdiction right now.
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Post by Kamakazie Sith »

BoredShirtless wrote:
Trust CNN? You're kidding right? CNN is supplied info by the coalition military! I trust CNN as about as much as I trust Iraqi media.
No, CNN is supplied information by the reporters that they have with the soldiers.

Some even being with those soldiers that your site claims took heavy losses and lost ground.
BoredShirtless wrote: Look, this is a war ok? Everone has got many reasons to lie through their ass, especially those directly involved. So I take the party who has the least number of reasons to lie, and assign them the most credibility.
Thank you Captain Obvious. That's correct everyone has many reasons to lie. The Russians are no exception, especially considering the possibility that they are selling equipment and giving training to the Iraqi military.
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Post by Vympel »

Debate split.
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Post by BoredShirtless »

Kamakazie Sith wrote:
BoredShirtless wrote:
Trust CNN? You're kidding right? CNN is supplied info by the coalition military! I trust CNN as about as much as I trust Iraqi media.
No, CNN is supplied information by the reporters that they have with the soldiers.
Embedded reporters report under a set of coalition rules. From CNN's webite:

EDITOR'S NOTE: This report was written in accordance with Pentagon ground rules allowing so-called embedded reporting, in which journalists join deployed troops. Among the rules accepted by all participating news organizations is an agreement not to disclose sensitive operational details. CNN's policy is to not report information that puts operational security at risk.

These set of rules are used by the coalition to control the flow and type of information these reporters can make. In essense, embedded reporters are the middle man, a mouth piece to the coalition. Who in turn filter information to a degree were we need organisations like Al Jazeera to force the coalition to reveal their hand. Note that news of the 5 captured soldiers was broken by Al Jazeera.
Kamakazie Sith wrote: Some even being with those soldiers that your site claims took heavy losses and lost ground.
Proof? So?
BoredShirtless wrote: Look, this is a war ok? Everone has got many reasons to lie through their ass, especially those directly involved. So I take the party who has the least number of reasons to lie, and assign them the most credibility.
Kamakazie Sith wrote: Thank you Captain Obvious. That's correct everyone has many reasons to lie. The Russians are no exception, especially considering the possibility that they are selling equipment and giving training to the Iraqi military.
:roll: Reread what I wrote.
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Post by Axis Kast »

The question isn't whether reporters from CNN are embedded and thus subject to press controls, but whether their news is any less worthy and reliable than that of Russia. The answer? No.

Russia is spouting as much - if not more - propaganda than our most ardent networks - ie, FOX, MSNBC. They've highlighted ambushes and captures that I've never seen discussed elsewhere. Al Jazeera and the French haven't even broken that news.
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Axis Kast wrote:
Let me organize what you just said. You trust your media even though they're pro war, while mistrust the French because they're anti war? Are you for real? Look, get this through your noggin: don't trust either! By themselves anyway. Wait until everyone is saying the same thing before trusting anything.
It’s choosing between two distinctly opposite points of view. The Anglo-American position is one of optimism while the French deliver only thinly veiled criticism.
Your argument for choosing one side is self defeating. If the French media can't be trusted because they're critical, then the coalition media can't be trusted because they're optimistic. 10 dead soldiers is 10 dead soldiers. Wrap that in an opinion, you still get 10 dead soldiers.

BTW can you cite one example of a reputable French source lying about the "truth", and relate that lie to their anti-war stance?
Axis Kast wrote: I’m not going to live in paranoia, fearful that every news outlet out there is lying to me. I take things with a grain of salt, but I’m not going to sit down and watch the French bash my country and suggest that executed prisoners-of-war got some of their own medicine, no.
Link to executed POWs story?
Axis Kast wrote: And who said I didn’t wait for repeat-news before fully accepting a given scenario? You might try that, too. You’d realize that by comparison with all other networks, Russia’s offer the least-verifiable news.
They claim to be analysing intercepted radio comm and using satellite images, those resources mainstream media do not have.
Axis Kast wrote:
Adding emotional langauge to a report doesn't invalidate the information contained.
It certainly does when that information is similar to or even worse than that in Western media.
Tell me how.
Axis Kast wrote: The French were running constant stories on Gulf War illness just before the war when certain Western sources – ie, my local newspaper – had covered them in detail – with relevant interviews – months earlier.
Fucking so what? http://www.infidels.org/news/atheism/logic.html#herring
Axis Kast wrote: You’re telling me that I’m somehow a corrupted fool if I don’t sit here and watch 10% news and 90% posturing? They offer less than half the news of CNN or BBC anyway.
You're losing it Axis: no media have claimed they were executed POWs. Your getting carried away. Please settle down and relax.
Axis Kast wrote:
Wait. It's ok to lie about key facts like capturing a city, but not ok to give an opinion on POWs?
All these networks “lie.” It’s not necessarily intentional. Somebody makes a mistake. And if you think I’m blind to that, it’s a grave mistake. I follow three networks here at home as well as up to three foreign news sources – BBC, Sydney Morning Herald, Guardian – for most of my information.

But at least these networks later acknowledge their mistakes. Russia’s made some, too. They’ve continued making them for two days – ie, the fuel tanker claim.
What fuel tanker claim?
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Post by Axis Kast »

Your argument for choosing one side is self defeating. If the French media can't be trusted because they're critical, then the coalition media can't be trusted because they're optimistic. 10 dead soldiers is 10 dead soldiers. Wrap that in an opinion, you still get 10 dead soldiers.
If one station is optimistic and another blatantly critical, why shouldn’t I exercise my right to listen to the source most compatible with my opinions? After all, if the news is the same – and it’s not; the French channel is far less comprehensive -, what’s the problem?

I have not said that the French station lied – merely that their news was sub-par and their opinions unacceptable to me. I don’t see why you should be critical of that other than to wrongly paint me as some kind of jingoistic fool for not appreciating “the other side.”
BTW can you cite one example of a reputable French source lying about the "truth", and relate that lie to their anti-war stance?
I haven’t said anything about the French having been caught in a lie. My argument is that they are both distastefully critical and less broad in their coverage. Why shouldn’t I watch CNN if the news is largely the same, there is more of it, and they paint a more cheerful picture?
Link to executed POWs story?
According to MSNBC and FOX news, the government now fears that four of the 507th Maintenance personnel were shot in the head. The French statements were made on television. Don’t tell me you’ve heard nothing of this.
They claim to be analyzing intercepted radio comm and using satellite images, those resources mainstream media do not have.
I seriously doubt whether the Russian military’s analysis of the ground war is being let slip into the hands of their media.

Why have the French and Germans chosen not to release similar data?
Tell me how.
Vympel posted information on the “Breaking News” thread that seven American fuel transports had been destroyed during an ambush and three prisoners taken by Iraqi special forces.
Fucking so what?
If the French provide late and inadequate coverage as compared to other media sources, why read or watch? If the sole difference is one of opinion, why should I subject myself to it?
ou're losing it Axis: no media have claimed they were executed POWs. Your getting carried away. Please settle down and relax.
They certainly have begun to make those speculations. FOX and MSNBC were making them throughout the day yesterday.
What fuel tanker claim?
Vympel’s claim that the Russians intercepted data regarding the capture of three Americans.
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Post by Vympel »

Axis Kast wrote: Vympel’s claim that the Russians intercepted data regarding the capture of three Americans.
*My* claim? I didn't claim anything of the sort. I have already given my opinion on the war coverage.
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Post by Axis Kast »

Did you not post this?
During the past night a fuel supply convoy of the US 3rd Infantry Division was attacked by Iraqi special forces. Up to 7 fuel trucks have been lost in the attack. Three US soldiers were killed and nine wounded. Another three US soldiers are considered MIA and are believed to have been captured by the Iraqis.
That information is from a Russian source, no? I haven’t seen it repeated elsewhere. Why should I then respect the validity of these reports?
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Post by Vympel »

Axis Kast wrote:Did you not post this?
That doesn't make it MY claim- if you bothered to read what I wrote after I first posted that, you'd know my opinion.
That information is from a Russian source, no? I haven’t seen it repeated elsewhere. Why should I then respect the validity of these reports?
CNN, Fox and all the other mainstream media have consistently and at the same time made the same false reports- in particular- the surrender of the 51st mech, the capture of Um Qasr, the capture of Basra, and the SCUD claim. Since when does repetition equal fact?
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