Trudeau abandons refugee pledge.

[The Romulan Republic]

As I said before, I think we could do a lot worse than Justin Trudeau.

However, that doesn't mean that I'm not going to criticize him when I feel he's falling short, or demand that he do the best he can. You run for Prime Minister, you should bloody well be held to the highest possible standard.

[Tribble]

As I said before, I think we could do a lot worse than Justin Trudeau.

However, that doesn't mean that I'm not going to criticize him when I feel he's falling short, or demand that he do the best he can. You run for Prime Minister, you should bloody well be held to the highest possible standard.

Even if a campaign promise is unrealistic? Again, this depends on your point of view as to whether or not accepting 25,000 refugees by the end of the year based on Harper's preparations (or lack thereof) is realistic or not. Obviously you feel it is better for the refugees if they come now, while I feel that they will benefit more by waiting another 60 days. From my perspective, Trudeau would be falling short of his standards as Prime Minister if he continued to insist on bringing 25,000 refugees even if its clear were just not ready enough yet. To each their own I guess.

Note that we are still accepting 10,000 by the end of the year, and the remaining 15,000 will at least be processed by the end of the year as well.

[The Romulan Republic]

Obviously, if a promise turns out to be impossible or dangerously impractical to meet, then it should be abandoned. However, a politician should also be careful not to make foolish or impractical promises.

I think you could make an argument that Trudeau is doing the right thing, but I'm not convinced. Canada is not a major power, but it is not a poor nation either. It should be able to handle something on this scale. Remember that 25,000 is less than one thousandth of our nation's population. And Europe, which includes many nations that are supposedly our allies, is taking far, far more people with zero choice in the matter. Admittedly it doesn't have to transport them to European soil- they're coming on their own.

[Tribble]

Obviously, if a promise turns out to be impossible or dangerously impractical to meet, then it should be abandoned. However, a politician should also be careful not to make foolish or impractical promises.

I think you could make an argument that Trudeau is doing the right thing, but I'm not convinced. Canada is not a major power, but it is not a poor nation either. It should be able to handle something on this scale. Remember that 25,000 is less than one thousandth of our nation's population. And Europe, which includes many nations that are supposedly our allies, is taking far, far more people with zero choice in the matter. Admittedly it doesn't have to transport them to European soil- they're coming on their own.

The percentage of the population has little to do with it. We could easily accept 100,000+ Syrian refugees if we wanted to, that's less than half of how many people immigrate to Canada each year. Our problem is our lack of preparedness. At best, we have the staff, equipment and facilities to handle 10,000 refugees by the end of the year (assuming Harper actually intended to follow through on that). We simply are not ready to properly handle 2.5x that number. It highly likely that the refugees that are coming were selected in areas where they are not at immediate risk of harm. There not likely to all get shot while waiting an extra month or two. Why should we bring over all 25,000 now, when by preparing for just two more months we can do it properly? I'm not a fan of doing things half-assed for no real purpose other than political expediency.

[Solauren]

Romulan Republic, I said this once, and I'll say it again.

it gets down to Manpower.

Simply put, thanks to Harper's slow gutting of alot of the public service (at the Federal level at any rate), as well as building closures and lack of maintenance and other issues (i.e the supposedly 'secure' Federal office I work in removed the fucking security guards due to 'budget cuts', despite the fact our bloody address is on all outgoing mail, and we have irrate tax debtors showing up at the front door on occasion. Fortunately, they don't get far as the elevators don't work half the time). the facilities we have are not up to taking people in.

Should Justin have double checked some facts before he said 'we can take 25000 by New years? Absolutely. Always double check facts and figures. Measure twice, cut once.

However, given Harper's governments policy of not admiting to anything, and muzzling people, I'm not sure that would have made a difference.

I'm saying this as a employee of the Federal Government of Canada. The fact the infrastructure that's in place after Harper's last 10 years is going to be able to process, transport and house 25,000 refugees, within 3 months, is surprising. Quite frankly, it speaks more to the dedication of the people involved then it does to any support they had under the previous government.

[Zaune]

Besides, what happens if they screw this up and those twenty-five thousand refugees end up an isolated, insular and widely-disliked minority who never end up feeling like they're real Canadians? That won't just be a massive source of social problems for them and the existing Canadian population alike, it'll poison the well for the next wave of people fleeing some outfit who decide they want to outdo Imperial Japan in the Atrocity Olympics.

[The Romulan Republic]

Zaune, that is a fair point, in and of itself at least. But I'm inclined to think that the first priority should be to get them here (though obviously basic security cannot be neglected), and then we can work out some of the details when they're here. Not that we should just skip the integration stage.

Obviously, if a promise turns out to be impossible or dangerously impractical to meet, then it should be abandoned. However, a politician should also be careful not to make foolish or impractical promises.

I think you could make an argument that Trudeau is doing the right thing, but I'm not convinced. Canada is not a major power, but it is not a poor nation either. It should be able to handle something on this scale. Remember that 25,000 is less than one thousandth of our nation's population. And Europe, which includes many nations that are supposedly our allies, is taking far, far more people with zero choice in the matter. Admittedly it doesn't have to transport them to European soil- they're coming on their own.

The percentage of the population has little to do with it. We could easily accept 100,000+ Syrian refugees if we wanted to, that's less than half of how many people immigrate to Canada each year. Our problem is our lack of preparedness. At best, we have the staff, equipment and facilities to handle 10,000 refugees by the end of the year (assuming Harper actually intended to follow through on that). We simply are not ready to properly handle 2.5x that number. It highly likely that the refugees that are coming were selected in areas where they are not at immediate risk of harm. There not likely to all get shot while waiting an extra month or two. Why should we bring over all 25,000 now, when by preparing for just two more months we can do it properly? I'm not a fan of doing things half-assed for no real purpose other than political expediency.

Its not about political expediency. I'm looking at it from the perspective of it being a massive crisis that needs more help than we can possibly provide even if we go all out, and every delay that's at all avoidable makes it worse. Hell, political expediency right now might be to do jack.

Solauren, I'm not questioning the dedication of our civil servants. Nor am I even going to say this is all Trudeau's fault. But this is a bloody frustrating reversal, and I am certain we could do better if we really went all out. We could devote more resources. We could be less worried about security when the threat is minimal (though I don't see that going over well right now, of course). It is, to some extent at least, a choice of priorities. That's how I see it.

[Jub]

Its not about political expediency. I'm looking at it from the perspective of it being a massive crisis that needs more help than we can possibly provide even if we go all out, and every delay that's at all avoidable makes it worse. Hell, political expediency right now might be to do jack.

Solauren, I'm not questioning the dedication of our civil servants. Nor am I even going to say this is all Trudeau's fault. But this is a bloody frustrating reversal, and I am certain we could do better if we really went all out. We could devote more resources. We could be less worried about security when the threat is minimal (though I don't see that going over well right now, of course). It is, to some extent at least, a choice of priorities. That's how I see it.

You can't just throw money and political capital at an issue and have it dealt with instantly. Sometimes infrastructure must be built, people must be recruited, hired, and trained for their roles, flights (and everything associated with them) must be scheduled, negotiations for buying land must follow their natural course, and so on. It's frustrating that we can't just snap our fingers, spend some money, and help as many of these desperate people as possible, but if it can't be done properly it's best for us to wait and do things correctly the first time.

[aerius]

Besides, what happens if they screw this up and those twenty-five thousand refugees end up an isolated, insular and widely-disliked minority who never end up feeling like they're real Canadians? That won't just be a massive source of social problems for them and the existing Canadian population alike, it'll poison the well for the next wave of people fleeing some outfit who decide they want to outdo Imperial Japan in the Atrocity Olympics.

Funny that you mention that, cause that's pretty much what happened in the 90s. Anyone remember the Somali refugee crisis from back then? Cause we botched that one good from lack of preparation and rushing it through. As in we just dumped most of them into subsidized housing projects in shitty areas such as Regent Park. There wasn't much support, screening, and all that other stuff, net result is we now have 2 lost generations of Somalis; the original refugees plus their children, many of whom are now stuck in a cycle of poverty & crime.

[Zaune]

Funny that you mention that, cause that's pretty much what happened in the 90s. Anyone remember the Somali refugee crisis from back then? Cause we botched that one good from lack of preparation and rushing it through. As in we just dumped most of them into subsidized housing projects in shitty areas such as Regent Park. There wasn't much support, screening, and all that other stuff, net result is we now have 2 lost generations of Somalis; the original refugees plus their children, many of whom are now stuck in a cycle of poverty & crime.

I was too young to remember that, but I can't say I'm all that surprised.

[trekky0623]

Campaign promises are made before a person takes office, before they are privy to the information available to prime ministers. If Trudeau promised 25,000 refugees by January 1st with the information available as the leader of the Liberal Party, and is now saying 25,000 by March with the information available to the Prime Minister, I honestly am not going to blame him.

If anything, trying to honor a campaign promise based on limited information despite a lack of manpower or logistics would be worse than simply waiting 2 months for logistics to be in place. Bringing 25,000 people to Canada without everything in place to care for them does the refugees and the people of Canada a disservice. Are people going to suffer over those two months? Yes, but that's going to happen regardless of when those 25,000 arrive in Canada, and will continue after. It is the ultimate wellbeing of those who arrive that Canada is worried about, and the logistics are not in place to guarantee that.

[Dartzap]

I must admit, that from what I had seen of the fellow from this side of the pond, the hype surrounding his campaign and election, very much reminded me of the 1997 election in the UK. It follows a similar path of a Tory administration long past its Best Before date. Does Trudeau have ambition to be the new Middle East peace envoy?

Good luck with finding a honest politician. Pragmatic is the closet you're likely to find.

[Purple]

Honestly I am not sure a politician that's honest is a good thing. History shows us time and time again that when people who truly believe in what they are saying come to power nothing good ever comes of it. At best they will be too ideologically rigid to indulge in the level of pragmatism required to not run the country into the ground and at worst...

[Alyrium Denryle]

This is Canada. Thanksgiving was more than a month ago.

As to Christmas, I suppose everything might already be booked up with Christmas flights. I don't know. Been a while since I flew at Christmastime.

It is madness. Total and complete madness. The airlanes themselves are booked. You cannot just add 100 or more flights in an already stressed and heavily trafficked time of year. International airports are already at capacity. In terms of gate space, travel lane space, and de-icing. If there is bad weather... holy fuck.

But this is a bloody frustrating reversal, and I am certain we could do better if we really went all out. We could devote more resources. We could be less worried about security when the threat is minimal (though I don't see that going over well right now, of course). It is, to some extent at least, a choice of priorities. That's how I see it.

You are not being realistic, again. Say you have 100 people to do a job that requires 300, meaning 200 people must be hired. No matter how much you spend, you have to post the job with enough time to attract applicants, do cursory resume pruning (because a lot wont be at all suitable), second pass resume checks, get a short list together in some committee somewhere, schedule interviews, do interviews, give the new hires time to relocate to Ottowa, deal with paperwork, on site training if the job requires it etc. Now, do that with a staff that was gutted by the prior administration because otherwise you have to double up on that whole process to hire HR peeps using your pre-existing HR peeps.

All that just for the people doing the paperwork.

It does not matter how much money you throw at it, there are only so many hours in the work day and you have to do a lot of this with pre-existing staff. Available person-hours limit you, not the money you throw at it. You may also have to lease an office building to hold these new paper-pushers, and furnish it to your job requirements, requisition a fuckton of desks, hire support staff (Janitors, admin personnel etc). Once again, you are limited by, person-hours, flat our statutes that govern things like building inspections, the time it takes to negotiate contracts the the leasing agent, processing time on the bulk order desks and office chairs, the time lag on a mass requisition from dell for office machines etc etc etc etc.

[The Romulan Republic]

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/pol ... e27477121/

Prime Minister Justin Trudeau conceded his government altered its plans to resettle 25,000 Syrian refugees to accommodate the changed perceptions about risk after the terrorist attacks in Paris two weeks ago.

The Liberal government unveiled some details of the plan to resettle refugees on Tuesday, pushing back the time frame for resettlement to the end of February, rather than the end of this year, and choosing to conduct all security screening overseas, before any of the refugees arrive in Canada.


Explained: How Syrian refugees will be screened for resettlement in Canada ( Globe and Mail Update )
Mr. Trudeau said things changed in Paris, and that the government wanted to provide reassurance, so Canadians’ welcome would not be dimmed.

“One of the things that changed with Paris was the perception that Canadians had. Canadians who have been extremely supportive and open to the idea of bringing in more refugees and demonstrating that Canada is there to help, had a few more questions,” Mr. Trudeau told reporters in London.

“And we realized that the most important thing is to be able to reassure Canadians that absolutely everything is being done to keep Canadians safe and therefore ensure that these refugees are welcomed as new Canadians, and not a cause for anxiety or division within the population.”

In short, Mr. Trudeau acknowledged that his government sacrificed some of the details of its initial plans so that it could reassure Canadians, so public support for resettling refugees would not fall.

He conceded that for many Canadians, thinking of the Mideast raises concerns, but argued those fears will evaporate when Canadians see the families who have fled terror arriving in Canada -- and hear their stories.

‎Mr. Trudeau initially promised to bring 25,000 Syrian refugees to Canada by year-end. Now the goal is the end of February.

Security screening will now be conducted abroad. The government had initially planned to expedite the process by providing many refugees with temporary visas, and screen them in Canada.

Mr. Trudeau came to London touting Canada’s record of welcoming people of different cultures -- and his Syrian refugee plan.

"We know that we are not just resettling refugees, we are welcoming new Canadians," he said in a speech at Canada House in London, before a packed crowd of dignitaries and Canadian expatriates.

‎"And more, Canada can also export the ideas and institutions that make diversity work so well at home."

He said embracing diversity makes the world better and safer.

"In the wake of horrific events like the recent attacks in Paris, as we renew our resolve to work with the international community to help prevent such attacks, and as we reaffirm our steadfast participation in the coalition against ISIL, we must also recommit to building a world where diversity and difference are promoted and celebrated," he said.

In other words, the earlier claim that the refugee issue wasn't about security was a bald-faced lie, or else an admission that he knows their's no threat but did this anyway. He backed down to pander to peoples' paranoia and xenophobia. He threw refugees under the bus for politics. Justin Trudeau is a coward, a liar, and a hypocrite.

No excuses. I'm interested to hear what everyone saying I was being too hard on Trudeau and it just wasn't feasible has to say about this dog shit.

[The Romulan Republic]

And yes, he says its so Canadians will be reassured and welcome refugees. But I'm not sure that works. See, by doing this, he appears to concede that their is a genuine reason to be afraid.

[Zaune]

I think you should be glad they're still getting anything at all done instead of declaring the whole mess Somebody Else's Problem and stalling for time until the Daesh overrun the refugee camps and render it academic, because if they were really committed to appeasing the NIMBY lobby instead of throwing them just enough of a concession to shut them up then that's what they'd be doing.

Besides, what happens if they don't provide a bit of security theatre? How many of those paranoids and xenophobes will decide to get their retaliation in first, or just make their neighbourhoods a no-go area for anyone who even looks vaguely brown? At least this way they've got fewer excuses.

[The Romulan Republic]

The latter point has some validity, perhaps. The former does not. I'm not going to metaphorically pat Trudeau on the back just for not being utterly abhorrent. Yeah, he could be a lot worse. But you don't win points with me simply for not being completely callous or bigoted.

And I'm not sure it will shut up the anti-refugee crowd. Some might be assuaged by this. But others will see it as validation of their fears. I tend to feel that prejudice and paranoia should be confronted head on, not pandered to and appeased.

[trekky0623]

The latter point has some validity, perhaps. The former does not. I'm not going to metaphorically pat Trudeau on the back just for not being utterly abhorrent. Yeah, he could be a lot worse. But you don't win points with me simply for not being completely callous or bigoted.

If importing 25,000 refugees by March instead of by January is only shy of utterly abhorrent, callous, and bigoted up in Canada, then I'm moving to Canada. Sounds great if a 2-month delay on importing refugees is what gets people's feathers ruffled.

Yes, of course things changed after France. I wouldn't be surprised if they're stepping up security at airports in light of the ISIS attacks and increased tensions in Syria and the middle east. This all makes it even more difficult to import refugees during the busy traveling season. Rushing through to fulfill an arbitrary campaign promise would be worse.

[Zaune]

The latter point has some validity, perhaps. The former does not. I'm not going to metaphorically pat Trudeau on the back just for not being utterly abhorrent. Yeah, he could be a lot worse. But you don't win points with me simply for not being completely callous or bigoted.

What can I say? I believe in being grateful for small mercies.

[Temjin]

Oh, I'm not saying we shouldn't do the job as well as possible. Just that given a choice between leaving them where they are a little longer to have everything right when they get here, and bringing them here now and sorting out some of the problems once they're here, I lean toward the latter. Though I can see an argument either way.

I also think taking people only from safe areas is rather stupid. Probably a concession to national security fears.

This is not a job that Trudeau can just half-ass.

With the Paris attacks, even in Canada, there is growing anti-refugee sentiment. The fact that Trudeau is keeping his promise of 25,000 refugees coming to Canada even after those attacks is, in my opinion, surprising and admirable. But it also means that Trudeau has had to make some modifications to his plan, such as doing the full security screening before their feet are able to touch Canadian soil. You may not agree with it, but it may be the only way that Trudeau feels can still keep the "spirit" of his campaign promise.

Yes, it's regrettable that Trudeau didn't keep his promise. But that promise was made before Paris, and regrettably, that changed a lot of things.

(God damn it. I hate this new board software. This post was made before I realized there was a second page. I apologise for the brain fart, and if this stuff was already covered.)

[cmdrjones]

Source for the dates? Neither was in the article I posted, or anything else I recall reading.

I am glad if their is a definite deadline, and if its so soon, though I am still concerned that people brought in next year may be taken out of next year's refugee numbers. I hope that's not the case.

And frankly, Canada is a rich nation of over 30 million. I don't see why this is that hard. If it was 25,000 of our people who had to be resettled, I expect their'd be more of an effort to find a way.

And if it is impossible, Trudeau shouldn't have promised to do it.

"Our people"??? what kind of nativist nonsense is this? What do you mean "our people"!??! isn't Canada a nation of IDEAS?! You'd think you had insufficient faith in the efficacy of Magic Canadian Dirt! (TM) Heretic!

[Alyrium Denryle]

Source for the dates? Neither was in the article I posted, or anything else I recall reading.

I am glad if their is a definite deadline, and if its so soon, though I am still concerned that people brought in next year may be taken out of next year's refugee numbers. I hope that's not the case.

And frankly, Canada is a rich nation of over 30 million. I don't see why this is that hard. If it was 25,000 of our people who had to be resettled, I expect their'd be more of an effort to find a way.

And if it is impossible, Trudeau shouldn't have promised to do it.

"Our people"??? what kind of nativist nonsense is this? What do you mean "our people"!??! isn't Canada a nation of IDEAS?! You'd think you had insufficient faith in the efficacy of Magic Canadian Dirt! (TM) Heretic!

Canadians. As in, those holding Canadian citizenship under their very much civic rather than ethnic conception of nationalism. You self-fellating troglodyte. If something bad were to happen to Canada (I dont know, a heretofore undiscovered super volcano in the Yukon that rendered much of canada uninhabitable due to ashfall) the US et al would bend over backwards to help resettle the population

[jwl]

and stalling for time until the Daesh overrun the refugee camps and render it academic,

Is this likely? I didn't have the impression Daesh was powerful enough to do something like invading Turkey.

[The Romulan Republic]

Yeah, I don't think they are.

And if they were... well, Turkey is a NATO member. Article five is invoked, NATO puts large numbers of boots on the ground, I imagine.