Tank Battle #2: Leopard 2 vs. M1A2 Abrams

Post by **K. A. Pital** » 2003-03-23 09:52am

I was inspired by the "Sherman vs. IS-3 tank battle". It's interesting to know what do people think of that pair.

Deutsche Leopard 2.

American M1A2 Abrams.

Leopard 2 is the best tank in the world, but still interesting if there's something that might help the Abrams out...

Oberleutnant · Post by **Oberleutnant** » 2003-03-23 10:18am

Let's be more specific.

What Leo 2 variant are we talking about? Strv-122, Leopard 2, Leopard 2A4, Leopard 2A5 or Leopard 2A6?

What Abrams variant are talking about? A standard M1A2 or the ugpraded M1A2 SEP?

Besides, we had a thread like this a while ago.

http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic. ... d+2#331108

Post by **K. A. Pital** » 2003-03-23 10:23am

The standard Leo 2 and M1A2 (not the upgraded M1A2 SEP).
Edit: Oh sorry for the duplication.
Edit #2: I know that the not the standard Leo got "the best tank 2002", but I'd like to compare the standard versions

Oberleutnant · Post by **Oberleutnant** » 2003-03-23 10:43am

Well, if it's standard Leopard 2 vs M1A2 then the former gets 0wned. It's not even a fair fight, since it entered service in 1979. See here: http://www.fprado.com/armorsite/leo2.htm

M1A2 came into service in the mid 90s.

phongn · Post by **phongn** » 2003-03-23 11:44am

He posted a pic of an L2A5/L2A6 though

The Leopard probably takes it one-on-one, though if I'm going to buy a bunch I'll take the M1A2 due to it's datalinks and such.

Atlan · Post by **Atlan** » 2003-03-23 05:27pm

From the front the later models are pretty much invulnerable to each others main gun, with the Leo A6 having the edge in the turret area.

My opinion is that without figuring in things like terrain and more importantly the crew, it is almost impossible to decide which one is better.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-03-23 05:33pm

Been done a half dozen times already. Depends on which crew gets a flank shot first if its an A6 Leo. Saying the Standard Leo2 doesnt work, Germany has multipul variants in service.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2003-03-23 07:02pm

The two are so closely matched that it will come down to training above all else. However in large scale operations the M1A2 with its IVIS system has a significant advantage over the Leo2.

Post by **K. A. Pital** » 2003-03-24 01:14am

If it comes to training, German is superior.

Post by **K. A. Pital** » 2003-03-24 02:56am

GrandAdmiralPrawn

That's not fair!

Boba Fett · Post by **Boba Fett** » 2003-03-24 04:22am

Leopard...natürlich!

Post by **K. A. Pital** » 2003-03-24 04:52am

Hey Boba Fett, wie has du den ü gemacht?

Faram · Post by **Faram** » 2003-03-24 06:05am

Stas Bush wrote:Hey Boba Fett, wie has du den ü gemacht?

He probebly have it on the keyboard.

If you don't have it on the keyboard press alt+129 or alt+154 on the numerical keyboard. ü Ü

Perinquus · Post by **Perinquus** » 2003-03-24 06:13am

Stas Bush wrote:If it comes to training, German is superior.

In the WWII Wehrmacht, yes. Nowadays, I don't believe so. I speak as a former U.S. Army Sergeant whose trained in joint exercises with various foreign militaries, including Germany's.

Post by **Vympel** » 2003-03-24 06:22am

Tank on tank, technology wise, Leopard 2A6 is the superior machine.

Post by **K. A. Pital** » 2003-03-24 07:09am

Perinquus
The Bundeswehr is the direct succesor to the Wehrmacht, and many old militarians helped to build it. I spoke to the soldiers, their training seems to be supreme. Since black sunday or whatever it was, Germany also improved the special forces greatly.
The bad thing is, I met only a few people from the American army, and I can't decide they somewhat worse trained basing on personal experience. I conclude that from history, although I may be wrong.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-03-24 08:10am

Stas Bush wrote:If it comes to training, German is superior.

Actually it’s considerably inferior due to a lack of ranges and a lack of anything approaching the US NTC. To conduct any training operations higher then battalion size the troops must be flown to Canada and that rarely happens. And even the battalion ranges are booked up for decades and in many cases must be shared with other NATO forces in Germany. Live fire is also restricted in some areas because of noise. In Germany for the most part training means driving in columes along the roads and engaing with lasers only.

Everyone remember the Pzh2000 pic with the giant silencer?

Boba Fett · Post by **Boba Fett** » 2003-03-24 08:16am

Stas Bush wrote:Hey Boba Fett, wie has du den ü gemacht?

It's on my keyboard as Faram said.

It's vital for a hungarian!

Sir Sirius · Post by **Sir Sirius** » 2003-03-24 08:22am

I think that we should keep this about the Tanks and assume that the crews are roughly equal in skill. It is difficult to objectively measure the skill of a crew, let alone estimate the effect of skill differences between two tank crews in combat.

Other then that, I agree with Vympel here, as a tank the Leo 2A6 is superior.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-03-24 08:29am

One on one yes. In groups IVIS gives a considerable advantage, especially when you begin to a include combined arms.

Oberleutnant · Post by **Oberleutnant** » 2003-03-24 08:37am

Yes, if it the Leopard is A6 or the Swedish Strv-122, it will come out as a winner.

Sea Skimmer wrote:Actually it’s considerably inferior due to a lack of ranges and a lack of anything approaching the US NTC.

NTC?

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-03-24 08:46am

Oberleutnant wrote:Yes, if it the Leopard is A6 or the Swedish Strv-122, it will come out as a winner.

Sea Skimmer wrote:Actually it’s considerably inferior due to a lack of ranges and a lack of anything approaching the US NTC.
NTC?

National Training Center. The worlds most advanced armored training range, with both a massive life fire range with over 1000 targets, and huge areas for force on force training. The 11th ACR provides a dedicated OPFOR using M551’s and a few other vehicle abd aircraft types with vismod kits.

Post by **K. A. Pital** » 2003-03-24 09:15am

Sea Skimmer
Training grounds are not everything. And why do you think it would be worse in a group?

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-03-24 09:27am

Stas Bush wrote:Sea Skimmer
Training grounds are not everything. And why do you think it would be worse in a group?

They are a major factor, tanks are very hands on. And while a simulator can do a few things, there still very limited. Course the US also has several entire brigade sets of M1 and M2 simulators its crews can train on. The US also has recent combat experiance, while Germany has Balkans peacekeeping and nothing else since WW2.

IVIS gives a group of M1A2s a big advantage over those with only voice radio. Information sharing is far easier, the vehicles all know where each other are, any vehicle can call down artillery with nearly the accuracy of a dedicated fire support team.

Now if an M1A2 is totally alone, the map display is still useful for some things but not nearly as many. But once you get up to the platoon level it really helps. And as you go higher you can have an entire brigade doing it. it also greatly aids the unit commanders which is just as important.

Oberleutnant · Post by **Oberleutnant** » 2003-03-24 09:51am

Sea Skimmer wrote:Now if an M1A2 is totally alone, the map display is still useful for some things but not nearly as many. But once you get up to the platoon level it really helps. And as you go higher you can have an entire brigade doing it. it also greatly aids the unit commanders which is just as important.

Aha, but the Swedes have also taken care of this in their Strv-122s that are equipped with their own command and control system that has all the features you mentioned. In addition to commanding other tanks in the unit it can be used for assigning artillery targets, among other things.

Leopard 2, Strv-122 variant

StarDestroyer.Net BBS

Tank Battle #2: Leopard 2 vs. M1A2 Abrams

Which is better?

Tank Battle #2: Leopard 2 vs. M1A2 Abrams