Active shooters in San Bernardino, California

[Wild Zontargs]

For whatever it's worth, conservative gun nuts have identified the gun used as an AK-74. They say that those are not common or easy to legally obtain [EDIT: that part is apparently wrong] in the US. I personally have no knowledge of the subject.

[Lonestar]

AK-74s can be bought in most American States. I have one.

However comma, if it's a full auto AK-74, the sort that militaries use, then yes that's exceedingly rare. I strongly doubt that there's even 5 legal selectfire -75s in the country.

Similarly, in California AKs have to have modifications to be legal there. It needs to have a mag lock on it in order to have the features of a AK. I believe that the modifications are more significant than with a AR(which only requres a bullet button). So the gun itself may be illegal in Cali.

[Lonestar]

That said, looking at the picture, I'm not sure if it's skewed in such a way to make a 5.56 look like something else. AK-74 ammo that uses brass instead of steel cartridges is pretty rare. I'm sure it exists, but I've never seen it in the wild. I think there might be some militaries that use brass-cased 5.45, but in the US it's essentially always steel.

EDIT: The "difference between a AK-47 and AK-74" picture is stupid as hell. AKMs look much the same regardless of caliber, throwing a bunch of after market stuff on it doesn't make it 74 instead of a -47/AKM.

[Zaune]

There are AK-pattern rifles in 5.56mm anyway. The Russians make one for export, and I bet there's at least a couple of US firms buying surplus 5.45mm examples and converting them to budget .223 sporter rifles.

[Jub]

So how many mass shootings is that in the US this year? Some sites claim it's more than one a day, and I tend to agree with them. Then again, the last time I brought that up I was told that some of them don't count because they were gang on gang violence; as if gang members are somehow less worthy of life than the rest of society. Still, unless somebody can post a better source, I'm going to use the numbers provided by shootingtracker.

According to these numbers, there have been 351 shootings as of 11/27/2015. 351 events where I can probably find more news about the shooter than the victims; though frankly the shooter is often a victim as well. These shootings have killed 454 people and wounded 1,281 more. That's three or four Paris attacks per year. Nothing seriously done about any of this.

So where does the buck stop? Where do we draw the line between guns protect us and our homes and guns kill people?

[Jub]

[delete me]

[Agent Fisher]

I'm gonna call bullshit on that shootingtracker page, Jub. The very first incident they cite for 2015 is a 0 dead, 5 wounded from a dispute at a bar that spilled outside and onto the interstate. That's not a mass shooting.

Second incident is a domestic disturbance where two male subjects arrived separately at an apartment, got into a fight, produced guns and shot at each other.

Those aren't Mass Shootings. Mass Shootings indicate a subject who takes a weapon, goes to a particular site in order to inflict casualties. Domestics and bar fights that end in gunfire are not mass shootings.

[Darmalus]

So where does the buck stop? Where do we draw the line between guns protect us and our homes and guns kill people?

Never, not in our lifetimes. The well has been completely and totally poisoned and reached religious levels of irrational conviction on both sides. The only hope is that the underlying causes are addressed and fixed by someone who never once publicly breaths a word on the subject of gun control to prevent their work being torpedoed by either side at the outset.

[Jub]

I'm gonna call bullshit on that shootingtracker page, Jub. The very first incident they cite for 2015 is a 0 dead, 5 wounded from a dispute at a bar that spilled outside and onto the interstate. That's not a mass shooting.

Second incident is a domestic disturbance where two male subjects arrived separately at an apartment, got into a fight, produced guns and shot at each other.

Those aren't Mass Shootings. Mass Shootings indicate a subject who takes a weapon, goes to a particular site in order to inflict casualties. Domestics and bar fights that end in gunfire are not mass shootings.

Did more than one person, say a mass of people, get injured due to gun fire? If so, that sounds like a mass shooting to me.

Also, if you don't like it please provide better numbers.

[Lonestar]

So how many mass shootings is that in the US this year? Some sites claim it's more than one a day, and I tend to agree with them. Then again, the last time I brought that up I was told that some of them don't count because they were gang on gang violence; as if gang members are somehow less worthy of life than the rest of society. Still, unless somebody can post a better source, I'm going to use the numbers provided by shootingtracker.

According to these numbers, there have been 351 shootings as of 11/27/2015. 351 events where I can probably find more news about the shooter than the victims; though frankly the shooter is often a victim as well. These shootings have killed 454 people and wounded 1,281 more. That's three or four Paris attacks per year. Nothing seriously done about any of this.

So where does the buck stop? Where do we draw the line between guns protect us and our homes and guns kill people?

Don't use the Mass Shooting Tracker. It has all kinds of problems.

• The authors are using a made up definition for "mass shooting", the ATF doesn't use the definition, the FBI doesn't. Just keep that in mind.
• The mass shooter tracker includes air guns in mass shootings.
• Many citations are dead links or connected to different shootings.
• Some of the shootings cited don't even meet their own made up criteria for mass shootings.
• They just throw whatever comes up first, news report wise, and leave it there. Maybe the shooting was worse, maybe the shooting wasn't as bad as initially reported.
• The admins of the tracker apparently have been contacted about it with concerns about the quality of the data. These concerns have been ignored, or they claimed that they were never contracted.
• Hilariously, the administrators complain about the audit making it's way to pro-gun media even as they brag about the Tracker being picked up by outlets like the WaPost or TDS.
• The Administrators engaged in the included thread from a month ago. As of 12/2/2015 at least some of the events that were proven to be wrong remain up on the tracker, not just in the archived list. Despite one of the Administrators claiming that "they'll fix it, they always do". However, I just double checked and it seems to be getting the Internet Hug of Death.

The guy doing the audit noted that the out of the total 996 listed shootings as of a month ago:

• 54 could not be verified due to the lack of citations
• 34 were either not mass shootings or could not be confirmed as mass shootings due to the lack of information
• 7 stretched the definition of a mass shooting, with one person committing separate shootings anywhere from one day to two weeks apart
• 4 were mass shootings according to the shooting tracker's definition but the listed number of victims was incorrect
• 1 was a 'mass shooting' committed with a pellet gun

That's a over 10% error in reporting. And those are just some assholes on Reddit who looked it over.

[Jub]

So how many mass shootings is that in the US this year? Some sites claim it's more than one a day, and I tend to agree with them. Then again, the last time I brought that up I was told that some of them don't count because they were gang on gang violence; as if gang members are somehow less worthy of life than the rest of society. Still, unless somebody can post a better source, I'm going to use the numbers provided by shootingtracker.

According to these numbers, there have been 351 shootings as of 11/27/2015. 351 events where I can probably find more news about the shooter than the victims; though frankly the shooter is often a victim as well. These shootings have killed 454 people and wounded 1,281 more. That's three or four Paris attacks per year. Nothing seriously done about any of this.

So where does the buck stop? Where do we draw the line between guns protect us and our homes and guns kill people?

Don't use the Mass Shooting Tracker. It has all kinds of problems.

• The authors are using a made up definition for "mass shooting", the ATF doesn't use the definition, the FBI doesn't. Just keep that in mind.
• The mass shooter tracker includes air guns in mass shootings.
• Many citations are dead links or connected to different shootings.
• Some of the shootings cited don't even meet their own made up criteria for mass shootings.
• They just throw whatever comes up first, news report wise, and leave it there. Maybe the shooting was worse, maybe the shooting wasn't as bad as initially reported.
• The admins of the tracker apparently have been contacted about it with concerns about the quality of the data. These concerns have been ignored, or they claimed that they were never contracted.
• Hilariously, the administrators complain about the audit making it's way to pro-gun media even as they brag about the Tracker being picked up by outlets like the WaPost or TDS.
• The Administrators engaged in the included thread from a month ago. As of 12/2/2015 at least some of the events that were proven to be wrong remain up on the tracker, not just in the archived list. Despite one of the Administrators claiming that "they'll fix it, they always do". However, I just double checked and it seems to be getting the Internet Hug of Death.

The guy doing the audit noted that the out of the total 996 listed shootings as of a month ago:

• 54 could not be verified due to the lack of citations
• 34 were either not mass shootings or could not be confirmed as mass shootings due to the lack of information
• 7 stretched the definition of a mass shooting, with one person committing separate shootings anywhere from one day to two weeks apart
• 4 were mass shootings according to the shooting tracker's definition but the listed number of victims was incorrect
• 1 was a 'mass shooting' committed with a pellet gun

That's a over 10% error in reporting. And those are just some assholes on Reddit who looked it over.

By all means, provide better numbers then. I know that the site has issues, but nobody has yet stepped up to show better numbers.

As for pellet guns not counting, that's bullshit. They make airguns capable of downing deer. Even paintball guns can maim or kill very easily.

Frankly, I'd love to have data for the total number of shootings that happen yearly in the US with data for things like home defense, self defense outside of the home, police shootings, etc. That would make it a lot easier to see the effects of guns on the US as a whole.

[Lonestar]

There are AK-pattern rifles in 5.56mm anyway. The Russians make one for export, and I bet there's at least a couple of US firms buying surplus 5.45mm examples and converting them to budget .223 sporter rifles.

Russian sporter rifles have had mixed availability for the past year or so thanks to the embargo. Ironically, a imported Saiga Sporter with a traditional stock and no bullet guide(allowing for double stack mags) would be completely legal in all 50 states, as it doesn't meet the "assault weapon" criteria.

But honestly, it would be weird as hell to find a 5.56 AK being used. They exist, but they're pretty rare because you need expensive mags and parts for them compared to "standard" AKs.

[Lonestar]

By all means, provide better numbers then. I know that the site has issues, but nobody has yet stepped up to show better numbers.

Yeah, you're the one saying "there have been x number of shootings and here is my source", not me. And when I point out the problems with the source and you go "yup! they sure do exist! But I'm going with those numbers anyway!" it sorta indicates you aren't too serious about arguing honestly.

As for pellet guns not counting, that's bullshit. They make airguns capable of downing deer.

Okay?

How many of those "pellet guns capable of downing deer" do you think are owned by the general public? This isn't a rhetorical question, I'd like to see some sales numbers. Lot of kids have small plinking air rifles growing up, I would be very surprised if that many have some capable of killing large game.

Even paintball guns can maim or kill very easily.

Well, shit dude. In that case so can chucking nerf guns and marbles are people.

Frankly, I'd love to have data for the total number of shootings that happen yearly in the US with data for things like home defense, self defense outside of the home, police shootings, etc.

Look up the homicide totals. Most divide it between "homicide" and "justifiable homicide"(typically police shootings or self defense shootings).

Buuuuuut, that would be a fairly incomplete picture. Lotta people engage in DGU without actually shooting people.

[Jub]

Yeah, you're the one saying "there have been x number of shootings and here is my source", not me. And when I point out the problems with the source and you go "yup! they sure do exist! But I'm going with those numbers anyway!" it sorta indicates you aren't too serious about arguing honestly.

Those numbers give a better ballpark figure than no numbers at all, and they're easy to access. If you dispute the numbers, by all means provide your own.

Okay?

How many of those "pellet guns capable of downing deer" do you think are owned by the general public? This isn't a rhetorical question, I'd like to see some sales numbers. Lot of kids have small plinking air rifles growing up, I would be very surprised if that many have some capable of killing large game.

The number is irrelevant given that even a shitty spring loaded pellet gun can kill. I'm also merely aiming to show that it's dishonest to dismiss an airgun as just a children's toy when even the weakest examples can produce the same fatal results as a .22, or even weaker round, which nobody would call a toy.

Well, shit dude. In that case so can chucking nerf guns and marbles are people.

Your tangent is irrelevant as none of those things are classified as firearms. At least in Canada, airguns, and spring guns do count as firearms. Feel free to call up Canada's lawmakers if you care to dispute this fact.

http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/cfp-pcaf/fs-f ... ir-eng.htm

Look up the homicide totals. Most divide it between "homicide" and "justifiable homicide"(typically police shootings or self defense shootings).

Buuuuuut, that would be a fairly incomplete picture. Lotta people engage in DGU without actually shooting people.

That won't show cases where people were wounded or where shots were fired without injury, both of which are still shootings.

[Zaune]

But honestly, it would be weird as hell to find a 5.56 AK being used. They exist, but they're pretty rare because you need expensive mags and parts for them compared to "standard" AKs.

It's not the sort of gun you'd buy specially to carry out a terrorist attack with, true. But for all we know the perpetrator was a hunter or target shooter who picked it up at a gun show a few years back for its novelty value.

[Lonestar]

Those numbers give a better ballpark figure than no numbers at all, and they're easy to access. If you dispute the numbers, by all means provide your own.

So, not interested in arguing honestly. Got it.

BTW, I can think of a non-shitty tracker not slapped together by assholes on Reddit that knocks about 50+ instances right off the top, if you only look.

The number is irrelevant given that even a shitty spring loaded pellet gun can kill. I'm also merely aiming to show that it's dishonest to dismiss an airgun as just a children's toy when even the weakest examples can produce the same fatal results as a .22, or even weaker round, which nobody would call a toy.

Dishonest?

Do you honestly think that most people think of airguns when they think of gun violence?

Bullshit

Your tangent is irrelevant as none of those things are classified as firearms. At least in Canada, airguns, and spring guns do count as firearms. Feel free to call up Canada's lawmakers if you care to dispute this fact.

Oh, we're talking about violent crime in Canada now?

And getting called on making a vague claim that "even paintball guns can kill or maim easily" and therefore implying they should be included in gun violence numbers is hardly a "irrelevant tangent". If we're down to "shit that throws stuff counts as gun violence" why not various flavors of bows? Slingshots? A nerf gun some asshole modified to shoot pencils?

[Jub]

So, not interested in arguing honestly. Got it.

BTW, I can think of a non-shitty tracker not slapped together by assholes on Reddit that knocks about 50+ instances right off the top, if you only look.

By all means, post your links. Until then you're just blustering.

Dishonest?

Do you honestly think that most people think of airguns when they think of gun violence?

Bullshit

Does that matter? Where I live they're equally a firearm. They can still main and kill though some models do it with less ease than others.

Do we not still call a .22 LR a gun even though it has, with certain ammo, less than 9x the muzzle energy of a .700 nitro express round? That's about the same step down as there is between a 495fps airgun and a .22 LR.

Oh, we're talking about violent crime in Canada now?

And getting called on making a vague claim that "even paintball guns can kill or maim easily" and therefore implying they should be included in gun violence numbers is hardly a "irrelevant tangent". If we're down to "shit that throws stuff counts as gun violence" why not various flavors of bows? Slingshots? A nerf gun some asshole modified to shoot pencils?

I'm using the official definition for my country of residence. The definition doesn't change based on the location of the weapon, and therefore, from my point of view, it doesn't matter if the weapon used was an anti-material rifle or a spring loaded airsoft gun. Your nerf example could actually get you in shit here in Canada based on the specifics of your modifications.

Now do you have an actual counter argument to including airguns aside from jamming fingers in ears and crying that they're not what you think of when you think of guns?

[cmdrjones]

For whatever it's worth, conservative gun nuts have identified the gun used as an AK-74. They say that those are not common or easy to legally obtain [EDIT: that part is apparently wrong] in the US. I personally have no knowledge of the subject.

At least you admit it

[Patroklos]

I'm gonna call bullshit on that shootingtracker page, Jub. The very first incident they cite for 2015 is a 0 dead, 5 wounded from a dispute at a bar that spilled outside and onto the interstate. That's not a mass shooting.

Second incident is a domestic disturbance where two male subjects arrived separately at an apartment, got into a fight, produced guns and shot at each other.

Those aren't Mass Shootings. Mass Shootings indicate a subject who takes a weapon, goes to a particular site in order to inflict casualties. Domestics and bar fights that end in gunfire are not mass shootings.

Did more than one person, say a mass of people, get injured due to gun fire? If so, that sounds like a mass shooting to me.

Also, if you don't like it please provide better numbers.

I'm sorry, did you just claim that anything above one qualifies as "mass"?

[Jub]

I'm sorry, did you just claim that anything above one qualifies as "mass"?

I don't see you putting forth a better definition. Not to mention a quick glance at the data I grabbed my numbers from doesn't list anything below 4 dead and/or wounded.

[Patroklos]

Whatever it is I am sure qualifiers like "a couple," "few," and "a lot" are supposed to have space to fit between 1 and "mass" or massive.

You know damn well no rational person would consider a shooting involving two people, so pretty much all of them since the shooter is often a casualty, as relevant. You said it not me.

[Jub]

Whatever it is I am sure qualifiers like "a couple," "few," and "a lot" are supposed to have space to fit between 1 and "mass" or massive.

You know damn well no rational person would consider a shooting involving two people, so pretty much all of them since the shooter is often a casualty, as relevant. You said it not me.

I never said that two people shooting one another counted as a mass shooting. I was defending the site I used, I would say that a shooting where four people, the lowest number I saw on the site I used, were killed or injured ought to count. Besides, a theater shooting where the shooter was the only death and there were no injuries could still count as mass shooting if he fired shots at the crowd and it was clear that he intended to kill as many people as possible before being put down.

[Channel72]

Well, the shooters were Muslim, but no further information is available yet. Obviously this was well planned in advance.

My guess is that this has no official connection to any organized Jihadist movement, but is simply the act of a couple of people who were "inspired" by overseas Islamism. The targets were probably chosen because this guy, Syed Rizwan Farook, worked for the county and this is basically the most convenient gathering of a large number of people he knew about in advance.

Regardless, ISIS members are celebrating and taunting as usual, naturally (with a fun new hashtag #America_Burning)

But they don't seem to be claiming any involvement or taking credit, so again, it's likely the attackers were simply "inspired", but not directly ordered to do this.

[Kojiro]

I'm sorry, did you just claim that anything above one qualifies as "mass"?

I don't see you putting forth a better definition. Not to mention a quick glance at the data I grabbed my numbers from doesn't list anything below 4 dead and/or wounded.

It's my understanding the current definition of mass shooting is 4 or more people injured or killed, including the shooter(s). That's the one used for this infographic floating around:



Technically this means that a husband who shoots his wife and two kids, then offs himself qualifies as a mass shooting. I have to say this doesn't quite feel right to me.It has the feel of the bar being lowered to inflate numbers. Like saying that a pile up is now '4 or more people injured in a car crash'.

[The Romulan Republic]

What would you consider an appropriate number?