Fallout 4 (Major Spoilers start about half-way)

[TheFeniX]

The FallScrolls games hit an area very few, if any, other developers will go. Blank slate main character dumped off in a open world and made to survive. As limited as options have become, you still have a varied amount of shallow content and builds to work with. Even the Witcher series has problems comparing (though they are arguably better games in general) because you are playing as an established character. No matter how much you want to, Shepard in Mass Effect isn't going to just walk off and say "fuck the galaxy" as there is very little, aside from off the narrow beaten path to do side-quest wise. Fallout has the added advantage of no one really taking a crack at the post-apocalyptic genre. That's part of why the original Fallouts were so popular. Futuristic technology, but none of the generic sci-fi junk.

There's hundreds of hours of bullshit to do in FallScroll games outside the main quest, and even though a lot of that is just as shallow: people like rummaging around for parts on the odd cool item here and there. It's a skinner box, just like MMO players work for years to collect segments of code that sparkle when rendered. It's really not hard to understand why they are popular to mainstream players, especially as they have become more and more cutdown. Also of note: the modding community.

As horrible as Beth writing is, it's actually relatively easy to tolerate. But that only matters to people who've been around long enough or care about story-telling. For every person like that, there's probably 100 who haven't read/watched/played anything with better writing and they just don't know any better. New generation of kids are growing up and Beth Fallout games are their "how to do storytelling" examples. There's a not small segment of gamers who think Fallout 3's story made more sense than New Vegas. Dems the breaks.

Not understanding why Half-Life has enduring popularity makes less sense. I could write a book on why it's lasted so long in gamer memory. Other gamers have already done so. That said, just Half-Life standalone is one of the best FPS (if not best all-around) games of all time. It has everything and other developers have built off their success and ideas for their own games. This doesn't even include what else it came with as valve didn't think it could stand on it's own so they rummage around and crammed Counter-Strike and Team Fortress into it.

Damn, it's like 1 of 5 games in history with any note-worthy AI.

I don't enjoy 4X games. I prefer more fast-paced RTS. Civ Rev is the closest I'd ever get to playing one. But it's pretty easy to understand why certain gamers love them.

[PREDATOR490]

196 Hours into the game and I still have not completed the main story - As soon as I saw the Institute I decided to throw in with them. 200 years and they are the only ones that seemingly know how to make progress as evil scientists. Meanwhile, the BOS have spent decades making little progress at all except becoming increasingly more tediously dated.

Frankly, I would rather have had the game allow the player the choice to tell all the factions to get stuffed and progressively exterminate them all to form your own empire. That is effectively what the settlement system actually does without any realization from the developers about what that would do to impact the story.

BOS wants the player to kill the Railroad and the Institute - Insert Liberty Prime
The Institute wants you to kill the BOS and the Railroad - Insert Terminator mode
The Railroad wants you to kill the BOS and the Institute - Insert Synth Revolution

Cue the supposed moral / ethic dilemma when all options have pros and cons.

Through the story so far I have been constantly getting disillusioned at the inability of the game to deviate down the glaringly obvious path - Side with the minute men and play the factions against one another until you systematically gut them all.

[Gaidin]

Seems like the choice is obvious. Nuke the site from orbit...

Besides the obvious technical challenges...

[Enigma]

196 Hours into the game and I still have not completed the main story - As soon as I saw the Institute I decided to throw in with them. 200 years and they are the only ones that seemingly know how to make progress as evil scientists. Meanwhile, the BOS have spent decades making little progress at all except becoming increasingly more tediously dated.

Frankly, I would rather have had the game allow the player the choice to tell all the factions to get stuffed and progressively exterminate them all to form your own empire. That is effectively what the settlement system actually does without any realization from the developers about what that would do to impact the story.

BOS wants the player to kill the Railroad and the Institute - Insert Liberty Prime
The Institute wants you to kill the BOS and the Railroad - Insert Terminator mode
The Railroad wants you to kill the BOS and the Institute - Insert Synth Revolution

Cue the supposed moral / ethic dilemma when all options have pros and cons.

Through the story so far I have been constantly getting disillusioned at the inability of the game to deviate down the glaringly obvious path - Side with the minute men and play the factions against one another until you systematically gut them all.

I understood that the Minutemen just want the Institute nuked, that is it. I don't think they have plans for the Railroad or the BOS.

[Enigma]

This time around I'm siding with the BOS but I'm stuck in one mission. I'm supposed to talk to Madison Li and try to convince her to return. How do I travel throughout the Institute the first time I go there when I'm basically herded towards Father?

[Jub]

This time around I'm siding with the BOS but I'm stuck in one mission. I'm supposed to talk to Madison Li and try to convince her to return. How do I travel throughout the Institute the first time I go there when I'm basically herded towards Father?

You talk to father first and then they let you explore the Insitute. So you can do those quests after the railroad bit.

[PREDATOR490]

You have to play nice with Father until he lets you free roam the place. Kinda thought Madison Li was a bit silly.

You can send her to the BOS then become director of the Institute then if you see Madisin Li afterwards she still uses the voice dialogue about you being in charge of the Institute. If you go hostile with BOS, Madisin goes hostile so it is not as if she is playing the mole and I doubt you can recruit her back once you get her to leave.

I find it equally tedious that you find out Danse is a Synth and going hostile with the BOS makes him either go hostile or just not speak to you. If I am the director of the Institute I should be able to 'reset' Danse to be my Synth buddy and / or turn him in for retention. You do not get any avenue to cover Danse's subject from the Institute side from what I saw.
Meanwhile - The player can have Deacon sent and staying at the same location as X8 or Danse without the obvious incident that would occur.

Essentially, I would have seen a perfectly viable story choice to use the Minute Men / settlement backed player to kick the Railroad and BOS into line and storm the Institute until it is in Player control. Responding to settlement distress is going to be mighty easier with a facility that allows teleportation and can mint out robotic troops.

[TheFeniX]

Through the story so far I have been constantly getting disillusioned at the inability of the game to deviate down the glaringly obvious path - Side with the minute men and play the factions against one another until you systematically gut them all.

I think the only way to side with the Minutemen (as a faction, solo. Not just having them around) is to tell father to fuck off in the first meeting or kill him. After that, da istatoot launches an all-out attack on the Castle.... which makes zero fucking sense. Preston then reluctantly declares war and is broken up about all the lives that are lost. Really, his best dialog as it's not delivered at gunpoint.

I reloaded after the fight, but it seems this is the only thing that will kick the Minutemen into gear. They give no fucks (besides 1-2 lines of dialog) if you side with the Institute and wipe out the RR and BOS. They just..... build stuff?

Essentially, I would have seen a perfectly viable story choice to use the Minute Men / settlement backed player to kick the Railroad and BOS into line and storm the Institute until it is in Player control. Responding to settlement distress is going to be mighty easier with a facility that allows teleportation and can mint out robotic troops.

No shit. After shooting Father the first time, I did a "killall" in the console as a joke. The entire room filled with Synth.... Striders (I think) immediately afterward. They teleported in. Could have been an attempt to stop an exploit, but the amount of Synths the tiny Institute can crank out is absurd.

The Railroad should not exist. There's no reason 1-2 sleeper agents can't find their way in and murder the top brass. The Minuemen could be easily infiltrated to high hell with the Player, Preston, and... that one crotchety old broad killed in their sleep and/or replaced and the MM moved in a direction they want. The BoS might be a bit harder to take out, but 3 yokels in the Railroad snuck explosives in to blow up their one main base.

They've already done this, but I won't spoil with who/where. But also we have in-game confirmation there is zero way to tell a Gen 3 synth apart from a human, which is probably the dumbest part of the whole thing.

That the player is a catalyst in F4 is also dumb, aside from the Minutemen. They finish the reactor without you anyway. They've all drawn their battle-lines and are killing each other. This would have been the perfect opportunity for Beth to put forth a game in the vein of Star Control where other factions will fight each other and "win the game" without your help if you just messed around with settlement building. It would be so cool to just see a nuke go off at X and have agents for the BoS, Railroad, or Institute show up and start talking about what's been going on and how they're now willing to offer you and the Minutemen help for the future. Or, the BoS gets blown up and now you have random "settlers" trying to kill you for "no reason."

But no, they sit around except in random encounters waiting for "Ramirez, do everything." Except when you pick the other guy, then things all move along without you somehow.

[PREDATOR490]

Through the story so far I have been constantly getting disillusioned at the inability of the game to deviate down the glaringly obvious path - Side with the minute men and play the factions against one another until you systematically gut them all.

I think the only way to side with the Minutemen (as a faction, solo. Not just having them around) is to tell father to fuck off in the first meeting or kill him. After that, da istatoot launches an all-out attack on the Castle.... which makes zero fucking sense. Preston then reluctantly declares war and is broken up about all the lives that are lost. Really, his best dialog as it's not delivered at gunpoint.

I reloaded after the fight, but it seems this is the only thing that will kick the Minutemen into gear. They give no fucks (besides 1-2 lines of dialog) if you side with the Institute and wipe out the RR and BOS. They just..... build stuff?

This is what I kinda expected and it annoys me because the game has setup this obvious situation where the player must choose who to 'join' when player is ALREADY the head / general of a faction I.E Miniutemen. The existing factions and story do not seem to notice or care that the player is effectively building their own MM empire right under their nose so forcing the player to choose the best existing faction is silly when I already have spent my time building the MM from the ground up.

Ideally, I see multiple easy roads where the story could have expanded to include the settlement system and turn the game into a hybrid of RTS / FPS
Prime Example: Spectacle Island

Giving the player the ability to construct bases for strategic fire support is the kind of thing that breaks the idea of the story being about the Lone Vault Dweller being Mad Max rather than building their own personal army / empire. If they wanted to go the route of personal empire, that would be actually interesting if you get to manage it properly.
I.E Recruit people, gather tech and lead your group from being random settlers with pitchforks into an organised force that has the tech to match the Institute and BOS.

Essentially: Player ends up turning the Miniute Men into the Enclave for good or bad. THAT was the kinda ending I was hoping to push towards but I guess I will have to wait until the mods start exploring the RTS / empire building aspect of the game.

[TheFeniX]

Essentially: Player ends up turning the Miniute Men into the Enclave for good or bad. THAT was the kinda ending I was hoping to push towards but I guess I will have to wait until the mods start exploring the RTS / empire building aspect of the game.

Being able to take over the map, especially places like Quincy really should have been a thing. You can find so many little "settlements" that look like they were specifically setup for the settlement system, yet lack a workbench. There's no reason I shouldn't be able to fight the raiders, Gunners, and Super Mutants into a retreat as I expand my settlements. Work hard enough and I should be able to never see a red icon on my HUD.

Bet money they use at least one expansion development cycles adding in what should have been there in the first place. That said, I would kill for a mod where I go to the BoS and say "Yea, you got VTOLS and power armor. But I've got missile turrets and my own army. Fall in line or I'll turn every Vertibird that flies over a MM settlement into flaming coffins."

Honestly though, the idea of arming Minutemen with Power Armor and sending them into the Commonwealth to fight battles is probably a recipe to crater their dated engine, even if they did port it over to 64-bit. But the ability to train up squads, send them out on missions, deal with the dead, etc would actually be world-building. Setting up a few turrets is not, no matter how much some reviewers make it out to be.

[Gaidin]

Honestly though, the idea of arming Minutemen with Power Armor and sending them into the Commonwealth to fight battles is probably a recipe to crater their dated engine, even if they did port it over to 64-bit. But the ability to train up squads, send them out on missions, deal with the dead, etc would actually be world-building. Setting up a few turrets is not, no matter how much some reviewers make it out to be.

Probably also start a fun war with the BoS given their philosophy with technology and hoarding it.

[Jaepheth]

So far I've only gotten up to the first few quests with the institute.

So far the biggest thing to break my suspension of disbelief...
When you first exit the vault you're supposed to already be a human killing machine that judges by appearance.

This is a person who grew up and lived in the pre-war world. Taking a human life shouldn't be a casual thing for them at the outset.

In my opinion; the lone survivor should have been awoken from the cryo-pod by raider(s) doing their raider thing; killing your other frozen neighbors who you got to know from an extended pre-nuke segment. Then you spend the first 5-10 minutes of actual gameplay doing the Die Hard shtick in the vault. Sneaking around, attempting to reason with them etc. until you're eventually forced to kill them to get out and learn that in this world there are those who are beyond redemption or reason.

[Gaidin]

So far I've only gotten up to the first few quests with the institute.

So far the biggest thing to break my suspension of disbelief...
When you first exit the vault you're supposed to already be a human killing machine that judges by appearance.

This is a person who grew up and lived in the pre-war world. Taking a human life shouldn't be a casual thing for them at the outset.

When you first exit the vault you're a human that grew up and lived in a pre-nuclear war world that was a soldier in another war. Yea. I think you know how to handle yourself.

[Jaepheth]

When you first exit the vault you're a human that grew up and lived in a pre-nuclear war world that was a soldier in another war. Yea. I think you know how to handle yourself.

The woman was just a lawyer.

And the husband, soldier though he may be, would have no way of knowing that mohawk = shoot on sight, tricorne hat = goodguy.

[PREDATOR490]

Turning the MM into a Power Armor force would certainly be fun but I think the more hilarious option is if you do that with the Institute. Although the game hilariously allows Settlers to jump in power armor even if you leave it docked. However, when they go passive they instantly ditch the suit right where they are standing.
I was not pleased when I ended up going back to my base to find my settlers had raided my power armor bay and left them sitting all over the place.

I cannot help but laugh when NPCs instantly recognize Nick when he is running around in the Power Armor I give him. In reality, Power Armor is fucking awesome and should be well within the production capabilities of the Institute so putting them on a Courser would curb stomp everyone. Not to mention they could have implemented a brutally effective PR demolishing of the BOS simply by painting up some Synths with BOS flavored Power Armor to do their evil kidnapping.

It still bugs the hell out of me to find out Danse is a Synth but no explanation of what the fuck for ?
Even as Director of the Institute, it is kinda perplexing that no indication is given about what Danse was meant to achieve and if you go hostile with the BOS for the Institute, noone mentions that Danse is a Synth or bothers to pick him up. Instead the game seems to have set Danse to 'no speak mode' where he just stares at me and will not do shit.
I should be grateful at least he can be traded with so I can get my stuff back but he still keeps initiating the romance trigger dialogue with me. Danse will not travel me, talk to me, cannot be moved and essentially just walks around but he will totally keep bringing up how much he is my awesome friend so I can convince him to turn gay.

I think it would have been an ideal implementation of the settlement system to make the player build a fortress then decide who to ally with benefits to the building options. As it is, the building system is so far disconnected with the rest of the game it is woefully sad but so much of the game forces the settlement system into your face. I despise Preston constantly bitching about wanting to setup new settlements or the constant attacks that I have to witness even if the place I built is so heavily defended that nothing short of a major BOS army is going to require me to anything but laugh.

Oh no - Settlement is under attack from Ghouls - Clearly the player must respond to watch 6 Ghouls get hosed by laser turrets or settler bulked out in heavy combat armor and carrying mini-guns.

As for the engine - I have seen one of my settlements climb to a population of 29 when the max is supposed to be 21 - No idea how that happened but it ran pretty well.
I used the console to effectively kit out a bunch of guards with Legendary Combat Armor and Laser Gatling guns = A BOS Vertibird showed up and it was a gigantic light show. Game handled it reasonably well.

The only major slowdowns I have encountered is when you start building really big complexes which makes sense and if you build lots of them. End result - If the game would just have cut back on the trivial bullshit like making beds or lights and condensed the building system to one base per faction that is the size of Spectacle island. When the player has to choose the player goes up against the base they built for the rivals and defend the one they built for their allies from a much easier to script onslaught.

[TheFeniX]

It still bugs the hell out of me to find out Danse is a Synth but no explanation of what the fuck for ?

There's just so much of this it makes me tired. Why can't I, after re-humanizing Virgil, convince him to come back to the Institute? I'm the head bitch, I can let him work as he pleases. Why is the mayor of Diamond City being a Synth just kind of there? Nick might be pissed off at me for running the Institute, but why can't I drag him there and find out what they were smoking when they made him?

This shit is as infuritating because it undercuts the entire "I'm the biggest baddest motherfucker around here" vibe. Beth is horrible about this. You become the head of everything from the Dark Brotherhood to the Wasteland Knitting Society, yet you don't actually do anything. You don't give orders. You don't set the path a faction is going, except I told my Isstadood guys to work on weapons. You're still just some asshole and the same people give you the same Radiant Sidequests. You aren't actually in charge of anything, you just get some more dialog flags and certain items laying around are no longer flagged as owned, so you can pick them up without stealing.

And reading around, aside from those involved in the mod community (at least those not content with just boobs), no one gives a shit while I'm dieing dreaming about a Fallout game where Beth only handles the combat system, Obsidian handles the details of the writing, and CD Projekt handles the actual implementation.

The only major slowdowns I have encountered is when you start building really big complexes which makes sense and if you build lots of them. End result - If the game would just have cut back on the trivial bullshit like making beds or lights and condensed the building system to one base per faction that is the size of Spectacle island. When the player has to choose the player goes up against the base they built for the rivals and defend the one they built for their allies from a much easier to script onslaught.

Yea, this small settlement bullshit is annoying. Like Hangman's Alley is cool and all, but who would really want to live in a 500 sq ft area crammed between busted buildings? That I can even plant crops there is dumb.

[Vendetta]

You just have to accept the fact that this is a Bethesda game and logical underpinnings for their plots are not what anybody's here for.

Why is the Institute replacing people with Synths?

Because of SCIENCE!!!!!.

They don't seem to want anything out of it, sometimes they want the synths back, sometimes they want them out in the world impersonating people, and there doesn't appear to be a damn bit of difference. The people they're impersonating can't give them anything (sure, the mayor of Diamond City might be "influential", but Diamond City is a useless shithole compared to an underground super science base, and it's not even decent territorial real estate for a move topside because it's a damn baseball stadium.)

They're just doing it to see if they can, I guess?

[Jub]

Given the unlimited number of synths the institute can crank out, they could have taken over the entire region peacefully just by giving every farm as many synth farmhands/bodyguards as the farmer wishes to ask for. Nobody in their right mind would say no if the offer was we protect you or we send a hundred synths to rain laser fire down on you and everything you've ever cared about. They could have also just overrun the BoS garrison holed up in the police station thus ensuring that the Prydwyn never shows up. From there they could infiltrate the Railroad, easy to do when you can gain their trust by having your synth give your dupe a way to enter the Insitute, then you either let them attack you or have your infiltrator kill them.

Bam! Now you control the wasteland and can scavenge whatever you desire and conduct your science in peace.

[Vendetta]

I mean let's not forget as well that the whole inciting incident of the plot is because the Institute are stupid and couldn't think of a way to trick the PC and his or her spouse into coming along peacefully with the people who are obviously here to help after a terrible problem with the cryogenic vault killed everyone else PS we also need to do extensive medical tests on especially Shaun to see if you are all alright after so long.

(Bethesda are not good at plot).

(And it's still not as stupid as Fallout 3)

[TheFeniX]

You just have to accept the fact that this is a Bethesda game and logical underpinnings for their plots are not what anybody's here for.

Look, if there's a dead horse covered in DLC armor to beat, then beat a dead horse I SHALL.

They're just doing it to see if they can, I guess?

"We need the Commonwealth to fear us so they don't interfere with our plan."
"But shouldn't you maybe not be murdering people and replacing them with robits?"
"The people have to fear us."
"But that shit just got the Brotherhood out here on a Crusade, this seems...."
"Shut up and go murder the Railroad. They are a huge threat."
"But, it's like 8 guys just helping Sythns get away."
"THOSE SYNTHS COULD DO BAD THINGS AND MAKE PEOPLE FEAR THE INSTITUTE!"
"Wait, what?"
"MOOOOM, go beat up the Railroad already. GAH, I WISH I WAS DEAD!"

I started laughing uncontrollably at one point because Shaun gets all petulant. I thought it would be hilarious if he started doing that whole "jump up and down while 'slapping' your arms into your sides" thing kids do when they want something..... usually Micro Machines. You guys know what I'm talking about? Like, really whiney and annoying jumping jacks?

I thought maybe Beth was doing some kind of regression bit with Shaun finally meeting his mom/dad. Then I realized the obvious: shitty writers.

Given the unlimited number of synths the institute can crank out, they could have taken over the entire region peacefully just by giving every farm as many synth farmhands/bodyguards as the farmer wishes to ask for.

Even better, they could just wholesale create new colonies run by Gen 3s that are so attractive, other settlers would join. Fat and happy people don't care about some non-existent boogyman. The could then build their reactor and do whatever SCIENCE! they want in peace. You know, up until they're all a bunch of inbreds.

[PREDATOR490]

I was kinda expecting the settlement system to tie into the player being able to slap the Institute in the face with their stupidity as he takes over. Institute is raising all manners of hell against them either oblivious or uncaring to how much things are going south for their position. The BOS literally bring up their biggest toys and their spiels make it abundantly clear they are gunning for the Synths.

Having the player slap Father or any of the factions silly with figuring out how to do things a better way would have at least been somewhat appealing. From my understanding of the way the Institute ending is going to go, the player takes charge while also being the general of the MM by eliminating all major opposition. During the Institute missions you even recruit one of the settlers above ground because he is 'useful' and you can actually reason with him to go willingly.
We further learn the Institute is mining underground to expand their facilities but supposedly lacks manpower (Stop building army synths then for fuck sake ?) so why not have the player settlements act as recruiting points to willingly accept volunteers for the institute ?
Nah - Lets keep launching random attacks on people to scare them

Bonus points - Why the fuck is the game still sending SYNTH armies at my settlements when I am the director of the damn Institute. The Synths even try to shoot at me even when I show up. Not only is it retarded for the game to send me a notification to defend my settlement from a Synth attack, they should not be attacking in the first place.

[TheFeniX]

Wouldn't surprise me in the least if the development groups for F4 were almost completely compartmentalized. Like, the settlement group worked that out, then added in the attack radiant quests. They just pulled from a list of eligible "hostile mobs" like Super Mutants, Raiders, Gunners, and Synths. And there was never a flag setup to change if you allied with the Institute because the guys working on the Institute portions didn't think about it.

I probably should have played longer after beating the game, but I felt like such an errand boy after becoming Director, I just loaded my save before meeting father and have been fucking around.