World of Warships

[Borgholio]

The Yamato is a beast. Have you played her yet?

[Thanas]

Yep.

She is great fun to play but will eat into your money really fast.


This was a very fast game. Basically we won with me playing monster Tank in the Yamato and eating the combined fire of their CV and six of their ships for close to ten minutes before sinking. We also had great teamwork - I would damage a ship, get it close to sinking and a cruiser or BB would finish it off. It wasn't my best game as I was getting used to the turrets but hey.


4th in experience. Alright for a first game.


96k in total damage caused.


.....are you kidding me? I was 4th in experience. I tanked for 10 minutes. I caused almost 100k damage.
I had premium.
I had the extra credits flag.
I had the lower repair costs flag.
And still a loss.
Even worse, had I not used premium and flags it would have been a loss of 100k credits.

So yeah, not gonna play much Yamato.

[Nephtys]

I cannot see anything the tier 7 Pensacola can do that a tier 5 Kongo cannot. I'd rather have the Kongo: It's more survivable vs all threats (including DDs really), has substantially better armament (Every 8-incher would be upgraded by becoming an upgraded 6-incher like the Clevelands or Myoko), and comparable speed. Only marginally worse maneuverability and AA.

Add to the fact that Tier 7 Pensacolas get to fight Iowas, who literally can one shot you, versus Tier 5 Kongos beating the snot out of Kawachis and at worst, New Mexico/Nagato, and... welp. Nearly 50% more range doesn't hurt either when you're against tougher foes.

Maybe it's my playstyle. I do great in the Farragut, the Kongo, the Myogi, the Cleveland, the Omaha/Murmansk... but just simply cannot get Pensacola to work.

[Thanas]

Are you always pointing your bow at the enemy and take care you do not come closer than 12km? And are you running if you are 1vs1 against a BB?

[Jub]

Are you always pointing your bow at the enemy and take care you do not come closer than 12km? And are you running if you are 1vs1 against a BB?

The point is that the Kongo doesn't need to do any of these things while being able to deal with destroyers around as well as the Pepsi does. Sure, it doesn't provide the same level of fleet AA, but it's also 2 tiers lower.

[Thanas]

The Kongo cannot deal with T7 DDs as well as the Pepsi. It absolutely cannot.

And yes, the Kongo needs angling too. less of it, but she still needs it.

[Jub]

The Kongo cannot deal with T7 DDs as well as the Pepsi. It absolutely cannot.

And yes, the Kongo needs angling too. less of it, but she still needs it.

Maybe not exactly as well, though with maxed out secondary upgrades it wouldn't do badly.

As for angling, every ship in the game benefits from angling, even if just to make getting a bead harder. However unlike a cruiser, a battleship/battlecruiser only needs to angle against ships with BB/BC scale main batteries. That makes a world of difference.

You're also still ignoring that globaly cruiser win rates suck when compared to the other classes. With CVs being less common now than they were CA/CL AA defense is less required, and their only real role is to fight other cruisers and maybe make a DD think twice about the exact angle they approach from. In comparison a BB kills cruisers better than another cruiser does, while also killing other BBs.

[Imperial528]

The New Mexico is so much more fun to play than the New York. Feels like I can actually contribute throughout the match instead of taking out one ship then floundering about until I die.

By the way, that's without premium or the daily bonus exp.

[Borgholio]

Yeah the New Mex is the first battleship I played that I really enjoyed. No stupid amidships turret, faster, better armor, more accurate guns. From the way Thanas describes it, the next ship up, the Colorado, is shit. So I'm really not looking forward to leaving the New Mex...even though after the Colorado there are even better ships waiting.

[Thanas]

Yeah the New Mex is the first battleship I played that I really enjoyed. No stupid amidships turret, faster, better armor, more accurate guns. From the way Thanas describes it, the next ship up, the Colorado, is shit. So I'm really not looking forward to leaving the New Mex...even though after the Colorado there are even better ships waiting.

They recently buffed it, so I can't speak about its buffed form (other than that I have no problem dominating it in ranked).

As for angling, every ship in the game benefits from angling, even if just to make getting a bead harder. However unlike a cruiser, a battleship/battlecruiser only needs to angle against ships with BB/BC scale main batteries. That makes a world of difference.

No. You can now penetrate BB broadside armor with cruiser AP. So yes, BBs need to angle against cruiser as well. Where do you think those 5-6k AP damage per volley comes from that the Atago and Myoko put out?

You're also still ignoring that globaly cruiser win rates suck when compared to the other classes. With CVs being less common now than they were CA/CL AA defense is less required, and their only real role is to fight other cruisers and maybe make a DD think twice about the exact angle they approach from. In comparison a BB kills cruisers better than another cruiser does, while also killing other BBs.

Ships with the highest winrates on EU server (largest server), per http://warshipstats.com/analytics/ , post Tier III:
Marblehead (Omaha variant cruiser) 62.7%
Imperator Nikolai I (BB) 62.1%
Kiev (DD) 60.2%
Midway (CV) 58.5%
Iwaki (Cruiser) (58.2)
Fujin (DD) 58.0%
Udaloi (DD) 56.3%
Murmank (Cruiser) 55.8%
Ognevoi (DD) 55.7%

You want to know when the first regular, non-premium BB makes an apearance?
16. Yamato
then it is all cruiser/BB until:
26. Fuso

So yeah.

[Thanas]

ghetto edit: DD, cruiser and CV not cruiser/BB

[Skywalker_T-65]

Man, Fuso's that low? That's one of my best ships, and I certainly do better in her than any cruiser other than the Konig.

[Thanas]

Turns out that when nobody plays carriers anymore (because they are finally hard to play), nobody spots DDs and thus DDs are really hard to defeat right now (won't say overpowered because it is not the fault of the class). So BBs suffer disproportionately from this, as now everybody wants to play DDs and matches with 12 DDs are not uncommon now.

[Skywalker_T-65]

Never played a DD and don't really intend to start myself. Much the same reason I don't play light tanks over in WoT...I'm a tanky player. I don't like playing something that can't take hits and hit back. Granted, a DD is far more effective at killing than a light tank, but the point remains.

I'm very much a BB player, and have gotten fairly decent at dodging torps and punishing DDs myself. The notable exception to that is the bloody Kiev. Can't stand those things, since any halfway decent players knows his guns are the better weapon, and'll stay at a range where it's nearly impossible to hit him with RNG what it is.

[Jub]

Ships with the highest winrates on EU server (largest server), per http://warshipstats.com/analytics/ , post Tier III:
Marblehead (Omaha variant cruiser) 62.7%
Imperator Nikolai I (BB) 62.1%
Kiev (DD) 60.2%
Midway (CV) 58.5%
Iwaki (Cruiser) (58.2)
Fujin (DD) 58.0%
Udaloi (DD) 56.3%
Murmank (Cruiser) 55.8%
Ognevoi (DD) 55.7%

You want to know when the first regular, non-premium BB makes an apearance?
16. Yamato
then it is all cruiser/BB until:
26. Fuso

So yeah.

Let's do something slightly more useful, and go with tier 7+, where, with the exception of the tier 10 ships and in my experience, cruisers generally start to fall off pretty badly.

I'm going to use the NA server, as it's where I play, as well as the EU server for comparison.

NA Server:
1. Kiev - Tier 7 - DD - 59.9% W/R
2. Midway - Tier 10 - CV - 59.3% W/R
3. Yamato - Tier 10 - BB - 54.1% W/R
4. Udaloi - Tier 9 - DD - 54.0% W/R *
5. Tashkent - Tier 8 - DD - 53.9% W/R *
6. Zao - Tier 10 - CA - 53.8% W/R
7. Hiryu - Tier 7 - CV - 53.3% W/R
8. Mogami - Tier 8 - CA - 53.2% W/R
9. Myoko - Tier 7 - CA - 52.6% W/R
10. Khabarovsk - Tier 10 - DD - 52.4% W/R *
11. Roon - Tier 9 - CA - 52.1% W/R *
12. Hindenburg - Tier 10 - CA - 52.1% W/R *
13. Amagi - Tier 8 - BB - 51.9% W/R
14. Nagato - Tier 7 - BB - 51.2% W/R
15. Hakuryu - Tier 10 - CV - 51.2% W/R
16. Admiral Hipper - Tier 8 - CA - 51.0% W/R
17. Tirpitz - Tier 8 - BB - 50.9% W/R
18. Shokaku - Tier 9 - CV - 50.7% W/R
19. Essex - Tier 9 - CV - 50.6% W/R
20. Yorck - Tier 7 - CA - 50.6% W/R
21. Taiho - Tier 9 - CV - 50.5% W/R
22. Fletcher - Tier 9 - DD - 50.1% W/R
23. Iowa - Tier 9 - BB - 49.9% W/R
24. Benson - Tier 8 - DD - 49.8% W/R
25. Hatsuharu - Tier 7 - DD - 49.3% W/R
26. Shimakaze - Tier 10 - DD - 49.2% W/R
27. Mahan - Tier 7 - DD - 49.0% W/R
28. Ibuki - Tier 9 - BB - 48.9% W/R
29. Montana - Tier 10 - BB - 48.8% W/R
30. Des Moines - Tier 10 - CA - 48.8% W/R
31. Gearing - Tier 10 - DD - 48.8% W/R
32. North Carolina - Tier 8 - BB - 48.5% W/R
33. Fubuki - Tier 8 - DD - 48.5% W/R
34. Pensacola - Tier 7 - CA - 48.1%% W/R
35. Atago - Tier 8 - CA - 47.9%% W/R
36. Kagero - Tier 9 - DD - 47.9%% W/R
37. Colorado - Tier 7 - BB - 47.8% W/R
38. New Orleans - Tier 8 - CA - 47.8%% W/R
39. Ranger - Tier 7 - CV - 47.7% W/R
40. Izumo - Tier 9 - BB - 47.4% W/R
41. Atlanta - Tier 7 - CL - 47.0% W/R
42. Lexington - Tier 8 - CV - 46.5% W/R
43. Sims - Tier 7 - DD - 46.1% W/R
44. Baltimore - Tier 9 - CA - 45.8% W/R

EU Server:
1. Kiev - Tier 7 - DD - 60.2% W/R - No change
2. Midway - Tier 10 - CV - 58.5% W/R - No change
3. Udaloi - Tier 9 - DD - 56.3% W/R - Risen by 1 rank *
4. Tashkent - Tier 8 - DD - 55.1% W/R - Risen by 1 rank *
5. Hakuryu - Tier 10 - CV - 54.5% W/R - Risen by 10 ranks
6. Yamato - Tier 10 - BB - 54.1% W/R - Fallen by 3 ranks
7. Khabarovsk - Tier 10 - DD - 52.9% W/R - Risen by 4 ranks *
8. Mogami - Tier 8 - CA - 52.8% W/R - Risen by 2 ranks
9. Essex - Tier 9 - CV - 52.8% W/R - Risen by 10 ranks
10. Hiryu - Tier 7 - CV - 52.6% W/R - Risen by 1 rank
11. Fletcher - Tier 9 - DD - 52.5% W/R - Risen by 11 ranks
12. Gearing - Tier 10 - DD - 52.3% W/R - Risen by 19 ranks
13. Zao - Tier 10 - CA - 53.8% W/R - Fallen by 7 ranks
14. Myoko - Tier 7 - CA - 52.1% W/R - Fallen by 5 ranks
15. Amagi - Tier 8 - BB - 52.0% W/R - Fallen by 2 ranks
16. Taiho - Tier 9 - CV - 51.9% W/R - Risen by 5 ranks
17. Admiral Hipper - Tier 8 - CA - 51.6%% W/R - Risen by 1 rank
18. Hindenburg - Tier 10 - CA - 51.5% W/R - Fallen by 6 ranks *
19. Benson - Tier 8 - DD - 51.3% W/R - Risen by 5 ranks
20. Shokaku - Tier 9 - CV - 51.2% W/R - Fallen by 1 rank
21. Roon - Tier 9 - CA - 51.1% W/R - Fallen by 6 ranks *
22. Nagato - Tier 7 - BB - 50.8% W/R - Fallen by 8 ranks
23. Iowa - Tier 9 - BB - 50.7% W/R - No change
24. Yorck - Tier 7 - CA - 50.7% W/R - Fallen by 4 ranks
25. Shimakaze - Tier 10 - DD - 50.6% W/R - Fallen by 1 rank
26. Tirpitz - Tier 8 - BB - 50.1% W/R - Fallen by 9 ranks
27. Montana - Tier 10 - BB - 50.1% W/R - Risen by 2 ranks
28. Mahan - Tier 7 - DD - 49.9% W/R - Fallen by 1 rank
29. North Carolina - Tier 8 - BB - 49.5% W/R - Risen by 3 ranks
30. Ibuki - Tier 9 - BB - 48.9% W/R - Fallen by 2 ranks
31. Hatsuharu - Tier 7 - DD - 49.3% W/R - Fallen by 6 ranks
32. Kagero - Tier 9 - DD - 49.3%% W/R - Risen by 4 ranks
33. Fubuki - Tier 8 - DD - 48.5% W/R - No change
34. Des Moines - Tier 10 - CA - 48.7% W/R - Fallen by 4 ranks
35. Ranger - Tier 7 - CV - 48.4% W/R - Risen by 4 ranks
36. Lexington - Tier 8 - CV - 48.4% W/R - Risen by 6 ranks
37. Colorado - Tier 7 - BB - 48.3% W/R - No change
38. New Orleans - Tier 8 - CA - 48.3%% W/R - No change
39. Izumo - Tier 9 - BB - 48.2% W/R - Risen by 1 rank
40. Pensacola - Tier 7 - CA - 47.7%% W/R - Fallen by 6 ranks
41. Atago - Tier 8 - CA - 47.3%% W/R - Fallen by 6 ranks
42. Atlanta - Tier 7 - CL - 46.6% W/R - Fallen by 1 rank
43. Sims - Tier 7 - DD - 46.2% W/R - No change
44. Baltimore - Tier 9 - CA - 46.1% W/R - No change

* Denotes less than 10,000 total battles played. Low overall battles played will tend to skew stats for a less popular ship upward at higher tiers as only players well suited to that ship's play style will continue an unpopular line to higher tiers.

It looks like the general trend is that on the EU server carriers and destroyers are doing far better than on the NA server. Both of those changes would skew how useful a cruiser is going to be to their team.

That said, of the top 22 ships in the NA list we have 7 cruisers, in ranks 6, 8, 9, 11, 12, 16, and 20. That leaves on 6 ships in the bottom 22 at ranks 30, 34, 35, 38, 42, and 44. You'll note that no American cruiser makes the top half of that list with the best USN cruiser showing up at rank 30, well into the bottom 3rd of all the ships listed.

On the EU side things look even worse for the cruiser as a class. Looking at the EU ranks there are only 6 cruisers in the top half, with the highest ranked coming in at 8th, with the others being at ranks 13, 14, 17, 18, and 21. The other 7 ships come in at 24, 34, 38, 40, 41, 42, and 44. Again the best USN cruiser is in the bottom 3rd showing a clear lack of balance among cruiser trees.

The other classes, don't have nearly the same issues in terms of power when looked at across both servers. In NA the split for Destroyers is 5/8, but they cluster around the middle of the pack far more tightly than cruisers do, they also have the single most highly rated ship in the game. On the EU server the split is 7/6, a DD is still ruling the roost, but the main cluster of bad destroyers gets pushed down towards the 30's instead of the mid 20's.

Carriers are very clearly still doing well on either server. In NA they hold the 2nd spot in terms of power with a 6/2 split between ships in the top and bottom half of the list. On the EU server they do even better in terms of rank while keeping the same 6/2 split.

Battleships are probably still the next weakest class after cruisers. On the NA server they do hold down the 3rd overall spot, even then they still manage a split of 4/6 without the massive gap seen with the cruisers. On the EU server, BBs are punished heavily by the increased carrier and destroyer rankings managing to drop from 3rd to 6th in terms of power with a 3/7 split. Still, they're in a healthier place than cruisers are in terms of balance between IJN and USN ships.

Looking at the numbers, cruisers not only fail at being balanced between nations, they also have the single worst tier 7+ ship in the entire game. They also make up 31% of ships in the bottom 3rd in terms of win rate on both servers. Still, this is mostly an issue with the USN cruisers from 7 onwards being complete ass next to their KM and IJN counterparts, and that might skew my view of things as I've never played the higher tier IJN cruisers, aside from the Atago and the Kitispami, while I did play the high tier USN cruisers back before the beta wipe.

[Jub]

I still hate the new edit and quote buttons...

[Thanas]

You just can't ignore tier 4-6 where cruiser dominate in such an analysis.

Besides, all that confirms is that the US CA - who are geared for AA - suffer at higher tiers. Which to be honest is working as intended, what with little AA around. Besides, you just had a new CA line introduced who are really only good for hitting other CA, which will further bring them down.

[Jub]

You just can't ignore tier 4-6 where cruiser dominate in such an analysis.

Besides, all that confirms is that the US CA - who are geared for AA - suffer at higher tiers. Which to be honest is working as intended, what with little AA around. Besides, you just had a new CA line introduced who are really only good for hitting other CA, which will further bring them down.

I've ignored them because they basically don't matter when it comes to ranked, you can cruise to rank 10 in literally anything and probably do so in under 30 matches. The other reason is that they won't be a factor in tournaments and whatever they add for clan wars. Not to mention that the time needed to grind through ships only increases as you go up tiers so 4-6 fly by taking less total experience and games played than tier 7 to tier 8.

Saying that cruisers are good from tiers 4-6 is like saying that a certain ship is OP in co-op, it's technically true, but in the grand scheme of things it's also pointless.

[Thanas]

You just can't ignore tier 4-6 where cruiser dominate in such an analysis.

Besides, all that confirms is that the US CA - who are geared for AA - suffer at higher tiers. Which to be honest is working as intended, what with little AA around. Besides, you just had a new CA line introduced who are really only good for hitting other CA, which will further bring them down.

I've ignored them because they basically don't matter when it comes to ranked, you can cruise to rank 10 in literally anything and probably do so in under 30 matches.

But you can't use random stats to make an argument about ranked, for the limit on BBs and CVs there as well as no cap on DDs makes cruiser much more valuable and powerful than in random. The Atago, which having a shitty winrate in random due to every idiot buying her, is a monster in ranked. Probably better than any BB.

Saying that cruisers are good from tiers 4-6 is like saying that a certain ship is OP in co-op, it's technically true, but in the grand scheme of things it's also pointless.

Meh. I think it is a good tradeoff - you get an OP ship at the start for easy access and learning how to play, then you struggle later on.

[Jub]

But you can't use random stats to make an argument about ranked, for the limit on BBs and CVs there as well as no cap on DDs makes cruiser much more valuable and powerful than in random. The Atago, which having a shitty winrate in random due to every idiot buying her, is a monster in ranked. Probably better than any BB.

If they had stats for ranked I'd use them as well, but this game is still pretty new and lacking something like XVM gathering stats from everybody so we don't have much to go on. Still, destroyers aren't that large of a threat on the NA server, nobody plays the Russian DDs, and most DDs waste themselves rushing the cap away from their team and dying early. In this meta cruisers don't have much of a point.

The other issue is that at tiers 9 and 10 every other class in the game out ranges them. DDs can spam 20km torps, BBs have 20km+ guns, Carriers have planes, and cruisers have 15km main battery guns that force them forward into the teeth of the enemy before they can do anything.

Meh. I think it is a good tradeoff - you get an OP ship at the start for easy access and learning how to play, then you struggle later on.

Tech trees should stay balanced all the way through the game.

[Thanas]

The other issue is that at tiers 9 and 10 every other class in the game out ranges them. DDs can spam 20km torps, BBs have 20km+ guns, Carriers have planes, and cruisers have 15km main battery guns that force them forward into the teeth of the enemy before they can do anything.

You do not know what you are talking about. Tier X cruisers can completely stealth fire.

EDIT: And you can push cruiser range up unto the 18km range with upgrades - and few BBs will hit you at that range while HE always does damage.

[Jub]

You do not know what you are talking about. Tier X cruisers can completely stealth fire.

EDIT: And you can push cruiser range up unto the 18km range with upgrades - and few BBs will hit you at that range while HE always does damage.

That's great, they can fire 18km HE at a battle line set up greater than 20km apart. Sure the BBs won't hit much, at those ranges, but they can and will land some hits. Now that the cruisers are pushed 4 and 6km closer to one another they've moved up to the point where Destroyers start to become a threat. Once the Destroyers come into play they beat your cruiser at stealth fire, are making it so you're now visible to anybody within gunnery range, and, as an added bonus, they're now out of position to provide AA cover to their fleet.

If a cruiser stays with their fleet, they can't shoot anything and won't earn exp because killing planes doesn't give any semblance of a reward.

You can disagree, but cruisers, especially in the current meta, simply don't have the impact of the other classes.

[Thanas]

You do not know what you are talking about. Tier X cruisers can completely stealth fire.

EDIT: And you can push cruiser range up unto the 18km range with upgrades - and few BBs will hit you at that range while HE always does damage.

That's great, they can fire 18km HE at a battle line set up greater than 20km apart. Sure the BBs won't hit much,

They won't hit anything at all because a good cruiser can stay hidden nearly the entire time.

Do you even know how stealth fire works?

[Jub]

They won't hit anything at all because a good cruiser can stay hidden nearly the entire time.

Do you even know how stealth fire works?

That only works if nobody is attacking into their positions and if nobody is ever attacking you're going to lose anyway. Plus, a destroyer, at least any destroyer worth playing, is able to stealth fire on a cruiser just as well as a cruiser can stealth fire on a battleship. So the game should start with cruisers pushing out to stealth fire on the battleline, only to be countered by destroyers spotting them while playing cat and mouse with the cruisers and enemy destroyers, easily done with a lack of carriers to help spot, and then move into BBs firing at targets of opportunity for large damage.

Assuming each player is skilled, the cruisers are forced to retreat away from the enemy DDs pressuring them. In this position what exactly is the cruiser adding to the game?

[Thanas]

Dude, play Tier X before you make any stupid assumptions. I am done with this. The game does not work how you think it does. So reach Tier X and then come back.