Pre-industrial Fantasy STGOD OOC/Rules Thread:

[Simon_Jester]

GHETTO EDIT

Revision: if Imperial528 wants West Virginia he can have it, or most of it, because damn sorcerous hillbillies.

[Imperial528]

Yeah. There's a reason the English colonies planted in and around Massachusetts Bay thrived so well; it was relatively similar to the kind of ecosystem the English already knew how to live in back home. By contrast, the Deep South is so hot and pestilential that traditional English architecture is overbuilt for the conditions and tropical diseases are a major problem; one of the big drivers of slave plantation agriculture was that West Africans are immune or highly resistant to strains of malaria that devastated populations of white indentured servants in the region.

Yeah. Though Massachusetts is rather swampy, the winters ensure that large disease-carrying insect populations are rare.

GHETTO EDIT

Revision: if Imperial528 wants West Virginia he can have it, or most of it, because damn sorcerous hillbillies.

I'm thinking of being up in the northern Appalachians e.g. the Adirondacs, parts of the Green Mountains and the Taconics, if Eternal_Freedom doesn't mind.

Map for reference:

[Simon_Jester]

If your polity is of significant size it might well control much of OTL Pennsylvania and upstate New York, in which case there would be interesting interactions between us. What are your people like?

[Simon_Jester]

On consultation with TimothyC, I have decided to formally request the Tennessee River as my southern border. More generally, unless there is pressing need for a revision at my expense, I ask that the Imperial borders run as follows:

Start on Lake Erie where the OTL Ohio state line meets the lake shore. Run roughly south-by-southeast to Duquesne (OTL Pittsburgh). The Empire fought a campaign, once, to secure the junction of the Monongahela and Alleghany rivers; fortifying the junction makes them quite a bit more secure).

The border then runs in a generally south-by-southwesterly direction through West Virginia, presumably following ridgeline(s) but I am indifferent to the details.

The border meets the tributaries of the Tennessee River somewhere in the Virginia panhandle and passes through the fan of rivers that make the eastern part of OTL Tennessee, the exact line to be determined. The border then follows the Tennessee to the Mississippi River, follows the Mississippi north to OTL Cairo, then runs overland in a northeasterly direction to a point on what is OTL the northern outskirts of Chicago.

The Empire claims the shore of the southern fifty miles or so of Lake Michigan , and the de facto border cuts across the Lower Peninsula of OTL Michigan roughly along the line of Interstate 94, running south of OTL Detroit (an independent city-state hostile to the Empire).

Then back down along the shore of Lake Erie to the starting point.

FURTHER NOTE:

The site of the current imperial capital has been moved to OTL Cincinnati, where it forms one end of the Imperial Canal (following the line of the OTL Miami and Erie Canal) connecting the Ohio valley to Lake Erie.

Of course, just to make things extra silly, and because I cannot possibly name the capital of an absolute monarchy after Cincinnatus and still look myself in the mirror in the morning, OTL Cincinnati gets renamed... Louisville!

The site of OTL Louisville is now the old capital from back when the ancestor-state of the present Empire was rather smaller and more primitive, and will have the name Kingsport. Kingsport remains a major religious center and a city of respectable size in her own right.

[Imperial528]

If your polity is of significant size it might well control much of OTL Pennsylvania and upstate New York, in which case there would be interesting interactions between us. What are your people like?

It's a more or less united collection of states, with two or three major kingdoms and several smaller polities, along with a handful of mage-dominated city-states. The vast majority of the population are peasants. The "government" consists primarily of various treaties binding the nations together and setting trade laws, though the mages cities are a unified polity that has persisted despite territorial separation.

I never really got around to thinking of a proper culture, though.

[Simon_Jester]

Interesting. The Empire would automatically distrust the magocrats to a grim, occasionally violent extent. No wonder there's a substantial fortress at Duquesne (OTL Pittsburgh), and a respectable fleet on Lake Erie.

Do you think your border would run as far as Lake Erie? That could get interesting.

From your described territory you'd definitely have ports on Lake Ontario, but there may be Niagara Falls in the way between the two lakes, so unless someone's dug the Welland Canal, there's no way to get from one lake to the other without a portage.

Louis' empire is an enthusiastic collection of canal-builders within their own borders, and much of their economic and military strength comes from the logistical advantages of natural and artificial waterways for transportation. Not sure how well a confederacy could duplicate that... but then, historically, most of these canals were built by individual state governments or private consortiums.

[Shinn Langley Soryu]

After giving it some thought, I'll be setting up my base of operations in California, like so:



Haven't decided on a name yet, and I only have a vague idea of cultural composition (currently leaning towards a mix of Chinese and Spanish influences, though).

In the absence of PC states directly bordering my nation, the territories surrounding it would be occupied by the following barriers to its further expansion:
1) The Emerald Triangle is occupied by sorcerous drug cartels.
2) The OTL Reno-Sparks and San Diego-Tijuana metropolitan areas are home to two separate and unusually powerful confederations of city-states.
3) An actual empire of hostile nomads controls the Inland Empire.
4) The far north (OTL Del Norte, Siskiyou, and Modoc Counties) and the mid-east (OTL Mono and Inyo Counties) frontiers are home to hostile terrain and even more hostile natives.

[Imperial528]

Interesting. The Empire would automatically distrust the magocrats to a grim, occasionally violent extent. No wonder there's a substantial fortress at Duquesne (OTL Pittsburgh), and a respectable fleet on Lake Erie.

Do you think your border would run as far as Lake Erie? That could get interesting.

Possibly, it would definitely run the shore of Lake Ontario. The larger mundane kingdoms would have significant farmland in Upstate New York, with the Catskills as outlying territory.

From your described territory you'd definitely have ports on Lake Ontario, but there may be Niagara Falls in the way between the two lakes, so unless someone's dug the Welland Canal, there's no way to get from one lake to the other without a portage.

[madd0ct0r]

I'd like the northern half of Quebec please. Lake pinguluit is too cool to pass up

[The Romulan Republic]

That might conflict with Eternal_Freedom's territory. Best talk to him about it.

[The Romulan Republic]

After giving it some thought, I'll be setting up my base of operations in California, like so:



Haven't decided on a name yet, and I only have a vague idea of cultural composition (currently leaning towards a mix of Chinese and Spanish influences, though).

In the absence of PC states directly bordering my nation, the territories surrounding it would be occupied by the following barriers to its further expansion:
1) The Emerald Triangle is occupied by sorcerous drug cartels.
2) The OTL Reno-Sparks and San Diego-Tijuana metropolitan areas are home to two separate and unusually powerful confederations of city-states.
3) An actual empire of hostile nomads controls the Inland Empire.
4) The far north (OTL Del Norte, Siskiyou, and Modoc Counties) and the mid-east (OTL Mono and Inyo Counties) frontiers are home to hostile terrain and even more hostile natives.

Okay, we'll add that to the list of territorial claims.

[Jub]

Another point to address:

Jub, if I go with my "migrant people fleeing the destruction of their homeland" plot, the likeliest route for my people to have gone to reach their new home, geographically, would be through your territory. How would you feel about that, and would it interfere with any backstory you have planned? Their are other options if necessary.

My people would have been cautious, but they would have helped guide you through our lands. After all, as much trouble as guiding refugees through their lands would have been, it would have been far more trouble to appease all the spirits you would have angered crossing our lands without knowing the correct rituals.

[The Romulan Republic]

Okay, that works.

[Jub]

Here are the map borders based on what I've read thus far. It's just a rough idea of where people are at this stage, so let me know if you want any changes made.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Yeah sorry maddoctor, but at present Quebec is mine

Jub, I should have all of Quebec as well, but to avoid squashing Imperial too much, I'll shift my boarder to a line starting at the southernmost point of Maine, up to Ottawa and then NNW up to that southern dick-shaped extension of Hudson Bay.

Good to know that the OTL-US parts of my nation are roughly the climate I wanted. Can I extend that further north so I can actually use most of the territory? I can live with some Northern Ice Wastes though, as long as they aren't too big. Also, is Hudson Bay navigable?

So, I am officially declaring the Empire of Orion (I told you I'd be re-using things). The Empire has existed in virtually it's current form for most of a thousand years and have always been among the largest and most advanced nations on the continent. They have led the way in the study of the natural universe, with Orion scientists claiming many great discoveries: calculus, details of optics, the heliocentric model, early experiments with electricity and so on). While not "industrialised" per se, agriculture is as advanced and efficient as possible given the time. Helping with this is magic.

Orion has always had a love-hate relationship with magic. Whilst lower-level magical ability is relatively commonplace (affecting perhaps one in four of the population) the Empire has historically produced very few high-level mages. Those that do exist are shunned, distrusted and disliked. Even among the common low and mid-level mages there is a curious and almost unique phenomenon. Virtually no Orion mages manifest what may be termed "offensive" magical abilities. You will not see an Orion war-mage throwing fireballs or summoning lightning.

That is not to say that magic is not used in Orion's army and navy. The most common ability found in Orion is telepathy, which is used to communicate armies and fleets over great distances. Telepath-choirs are found in all five of the major cities (the capital Hephaestus, Port Rigel, Bellatrix, Saiph and the cold northern city of Fenris) and most of the larger towns, these are used to spread news and gather information from all parts of the Empire.

In addition to using telepaths for communication between army units, it also has more immediate uses. A skilled war-mage (one or more of which is attached to every army unit of Company size or greater and every Navy ship of sixth rate of larger) can produce an extremely strong will to fight among their soldiers and can also make them appear far more terrifying to enemy troops. It is also believed that this magic also speeds up Orion soldier's reflexes, though this has not been confirmed.

A more civilian use for this telepathy is found in the police force. With telepaths (called Interromancers) on hand, it is virtually impossible to conceal a crime from them. Orion police and courts have a 99% arrest and conviction rate, leading to a consierably lower crime rate than might be expected from such a nation. As telepaths are able to establish guilt with extreme precision, it has become known throughout much of the continent "never lie to an Interromancer."

Among the more unique magical abilities found in Orion is the ability to lower an object's weight, making it easier to move. This ability is not common enough to be used on the scale of individual soldier's weapons, but it is used for artillery and in the construction of naval vessels, making the guns and ships lighter and easier to move. Thanks to a fortuitous discovery, it can also be applied to the gun's munitions as well.

Orion chemists, while attempting to discover a superior form of black powder for cannon, found a special additive that not only makes black powder burn slower (not quite smokeless powder, but think about half-way between that and black powder in terms of effectiveness) but also cancels this weight-lifting effect on the shot. Hence a gun crew can load what feels like a 12-pound shot into the gun, but once it fires the shot reverts to it's original 36-pound weight without losing any speed (OOC: yes I nicked the idea from Mass Effect).

As a result of this, ships of the Orion Imperial Navy are considerably more powerful than might otherwise be thought. Their ships are more maneuverable and can, on average, sail 4-5 knots faster than a comparably-sized enemy ship. With the weight-lifting magic, much heavier guns can be carried on the upper gundecks without compromising stability, meaning in a contest between an Orion 100-gun First Rate and a hostile ship of the same type, the Orion ship may fire perhaps twice as much weight of shot in a broadside.

The Empire of Orion as a nation is moderately xenophobic, has no organised religion (the old tribal faiths died out rather rapidly after magic users began appearing) and has an overall philosophy that anything and everything can be measured, understood and quantified. This is part of their love-hate approach to magic: the common lower-level abilities can be easily defined, measured and controlled. Higher-level abilities are too erratic, too illogical and too unsafe to their fellow humans to appeal to Orion.

As such, the Empire thinks very poorly of other nations that use such "offensive" war-mages or allow them to roam around uncontrolled. We have fought many wars over the years and we continue to be ready and willing to fight if provoked. Our Navy is among the strongest in the world, with powerful ships of the line cruising up and down the eastern seaboard keeping the maritime peace. Fast and powerful frigates patrol the Northern Sea and the Hudson Bay against pirates, bandits and the occasional sea-monster.

Our border with the rest of the continent runs in almost dead straight line north-west from the Atlantic coast to the Hudson Bay. This was decided on in order to make it easier to defend, with no exposed salients presenting weak points. The border itself is heavily fortified, anyone crossing it without authorization, in either direction, is shot.

OOC summary: Basically, nation of rationalists and scientists circa 1800, with added low-level magic use, no high-level crazy shit. However, I found a way to have radios (borrowing the astropath idea from 40K), Interromancers (again, 40K) and make my naval guns and land artillery even more awesome (heh). Strongly fortified border, have fought many wars in the past. Strong navy, strong army (not as large as others, but the telepathy and the boost morale/terrify enemy powers act as a force-multiplier).

We have some steam engines in use but nothing on an industrial scale as yet. We are working on it however, and if an Industrial Revolution were to happen in-game, it would probably be us that started it.

[The Romulan Republic]

Looks pretty good as far as I'm concerned, Jub, Eternal_Freedom's concerns aside.

Edit: One concern I do have is that we're basically separated into two groups with a big gap in the middle. I worry that their won't be much interaction between the east and west blocks.

[madd0ct0r]

No worries, I'll take Nunuvut then. Big Hairy heyenaorks going raiding south in winter.

[Eternal_Freedom]

can I check to make sure my nation-concept is acceptable? I found a way to have radios and heavier guns and such, is that game-breaking or permissible, since I don't have dragons/other species/high-end war-mages.

[Jub]

Here's the newest version of the map with updated borders.



If we run into concerns about the large flyover gap, I have a few ideas for how to scrunch up the map to ensure that we're all nice and nestled up.

[Simon_Jester]

Jub, I'd rather recruit another player or two than physically compress the map of the North American continent.

Maddoc, so far there isn't much in the way of settlement anywhere from Nunavut down to the Canadian shores of the Great Lakes. If no one gets in the way... Put horned helmets on your hyenorks and we can go dancing.

Aaaand... TRR, we only have seven players so far. The real question is, who are we going to bring in, who wants to take nations in the Great Plains? That's the missing link.

Hudson Bay is navigable, otherwise Hudson would not have been able to discover it. At least, it's navigable in summer. Ships trying to make the passage into or out of the Bay in winter will so get trapped in sea ice. During the Little Ice Age, the ice-free period on the Bay was only four months long; absent that but without global warming it might be more like five.

Also, note that the St. Lawrence Seaway and the Great Lakes are a very useful way to penetrate the interior of the North American continent with pre-industrial technology, which is why we Yanks were so enthusiastically building canals and so on at a time when we were barely established as an independent country. Does your nation extend south into Ontario and onto the Great Lakes?

Since I have built an (if not the) Erie Canal, I would like to know my neighbor and my pal.

...

Only skimming your information, EF, but you're going to be an interesting foil for Louis' Empire (still a working title). The five pillars of the Empire are waterways, monastic warrior ethos, faith, ancestral spirits, and musketry. The Kingdom of Orion may have its doubts about at least three out of five of those.

[Jub]

Jub, I'd rather recruit another player or two than physically compress the map of the North American continent.

I feel the same way. I just wanted to throw the option out there so nobody felt compelled to change their plans too much.

[Simon_Jester]

Also, E_F, I would point out that a border which follows natural terrain features will probably be more defensible than a geometric straight line.

I put a bit of time and sweat into thinking about where my borders would go, for this very reason; it makes a lot more sense for an independent nation to put its border along, for example, the Tennessee River than to put it along the southern border of the state of Tennessee.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Good point Simon. Unfortunately I am about as unfamiliar with the area as it is possible to be, so I have no idea of any suitable geographic feature.

And yes, I daresay the Empire of Orion (no mere Kingdom this time, hah!) will have a great many things to say about your Empire. Waterways and musketry I can get behind, but the rest? Oh boy it's gonna be bloody. What would you say to us having fought a war or three in the past?

[Simon_Jester]

For the geography, look at a topographic map. Borders usually follow either a ridge line or a river line.

As to conflict... I look forward to it.

Expect a bunch of veterans with missing feet from when a disenchanted pack howitzer landed on their toes.

On my end, of course, I have no doubt you helped create some of the ancestral spirits now hovering protectively over my tercios.

[Jub]

The entire line up from Ottawa to Hudson's Bay is all Canadian shield, there aren't any great rivers or mountains to use a natural border, just miles and miles of this.