Pre-industrial Fantasy STGOD OOC/Rules Thread:

[Eternal_Freedom]

For the geography, look at a topographic map. Borders usually follow either a ridge line or a river line.

As to conflict... I look forward to it.

Expect a bunch of veterans with missing feet from when a disenchanted pack howitzer landed on their toes.

On my end, of course, I have no doubt you helped create some of the ancestral spirits now hovering protectively over my tercios.

Hehe...yes we did lose a few feet here and there in the early days of using the weight-lifting magic. Took us a year or so to realise you need to add an inner barrel/chamber lining that's resistant to the anti-magic effect of the new gunpowder to stopt he whole gun regaining it's original weight rather than just the round.

Also, I may add that we're working on developing magic fuses for exploding shells, to make my nvy even more potent

As for the terrain....hmmm. Is it feasible to add a large river or two running along the rough lines of my border?

[Eternal_Freedom]

Ghetto edit: Simon, what would your nation say to working on a joint project to dig an Atlantic-Hudson Bay canal along my border?

[Simon_Jester]

I would say "Aw hell no that sounds like an expensive boondoggle." You're proposing to dig across a very long distance along the Canadian shield, in a climate so cold that the canal will be frozen solid for much of the year in any event. And there's just not much there there on the shores of Hudson Bay; it's too remote and frigid to be a major economic powerhouse

If we were going to invest in cooperating on canal building with a foreign nation, we'd be looking to dig the OTL Erie Canal across upstate New York from the site of OTL Buffalo to the Hudson River, creating a second commercial route to the Atlantic which bypasses your territory entirely. Which is historically exactly what happened to the economy of Quebec after the canal was dug; canal traffic through New York reduced the river traffic along the St. Lawrence.

[wanders away, humming "Low Bridge," by Thomas S. Allen...]

For the geography, look at a topographic map. Borders usually follow either a ridge line or a river line.

As to conflict... I look forward to it.

Expect a bunch of veterans with missing feet from when a disenchanted pack howitzer landed on their toes.

On my end, of course, I have no doubt you helped create some of the ancestral spirits now hovering protectively over my tercios.

Hehe...yes we did lose a few feet here and there in the early days of using the weight-lifting magic. Took us a year or so to realise you need to add an inner barrel/chamber lining that's resistant to the anti-magic effect of the new gunpowder to stopt he whole gun regaining it's original weight rather than just the round.

[Grins]

I didn't say that was why the pack howitzer got disenchanted.

Also, I may add that we're working on developing magic fuses for exploding shells, to make my nvy even more potent

[Grins enigmatically]

The living stars protect.

As for the terrain....hmmm. Is it feasible to add a large river or two running along the rough lines of my border?

Look here.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... ivides.png

The green line on that map is the Laurentian Divide. North of the green line, rivers flow into Hudson Bay. South of the green line, they flow into the St. Lawrence or the Great Lakes.

Now look here at a terrain map of Quebec.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... Quebec.png

There are plenty of river lines that could be used for a border- realistically, you'd pick two rivers, one on each side of the Laurentian Divide.

I suppose it doesn't really matter which two you pick...

[Eternal_Freedom]

Fair point on the canal, though the climate in this region will be different to OTL.

AS for the rivers...I dunno. Hell, TRR, Jub, however is making the map, pick two rivers that are close enough to my stated border and call it that. My side will still be heavily fortified though

[madd0ct0r]

The climate will only be different as long as your wards stand. Winter is coming.

[Jub]

Eternal, you've lost a fair chunk of land, but everything borders a river now for defense. The new layout also gives Imperial a bit more room in New England should he want to expand.

[Simon_Jester]

I cannot see these images from my current laptop.

Also, as a working title, you can just call my nation "Ohio." It is an empire, it is ruled by a dynasty of Louises, but "Ohio" sounds less silly than describing my nation as 'Imperial' as though it is the only empire that exists.
_______________________

I suppose this may be obsolete, but I have a suggested set of borders for Orion based on his own description.

Start at the mouth of the Harricanaw River at the headwaters of James Bay. Run south along the river line to the site of OTL Val d'Or, then south to the headwaters of the Ottawa River, following that river to the St. Lawrence, passing through or near OTL Ottawa and Montreal.

Cut southeast, passing to the southwest of the site of OTL Montreal, until crossing over the St. Lawrence and intersecting with the OTL western border of the state of Maine at roughly 71 degrees west longitude. Continue south to the coast, then follow the coast north up and around until returning to the James Bay. Include, of course, Newfoundland as well as the Maritime Provinces.

[Jub]

Simon, you pretty much nailed exactly what I did. The line I took goes:

Harricanaw River ---> Val d'Or
Val d'Or ---> Lac Simard
Lac Simard ---> Lake Timiskaming
Lake Timiskaming ---> Mattawa
Mattawa ---> Pembroke
Pembroke ---> Ottawa
Ottawa ---> Montreal
Montreal ---> Quebec

The main change is that from there I just followed the St. Lawrence, and then drew the border along the coast including Nova Scotia, and PEI before coming up and basically making the same border around the rest of his nation as I'd done before. It would be easy to add Maine and New Brunswick back in as needed, but I figured this way leaves a little more room for Imperial to expand if he needs it.

[Simon_Jester]

The Empire is built around the Ohio River valley and does not extend northeast past a line running roughly north-by-northwest from Duquesne (OTL Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania). While the the marshals in Louisville (OTL Cincinnati, just so we're clear) may dream of clearing the south shore of Lake Erie clear up to the site of OTL Buffalo, they're not up to advancing further than that, and to do so would place them into conflict with Imperial528's unnamed confederacy.

There is no way I have or want a claim on Maine.

Imperial528, however, might.

EDIT: To be clear, I put out a fairly precisely defined set of borders here. The exact extent of my eastern border remains to be settled since West Virginia and eastern Tennessee may or may not be contested; the other borders I'd like to insist on unless there is a compelling reason to change. They were selected as logical frontiers that are defensible and consistent with the nature of the terrain and the available logistics.

[Jub]

I was talking about the borders for Orion seeing as you couldn't see the latest map. I guess I didn't make that clear.

[Simon_Jester]

Ohh, you meant you were leaving Maine empty so Orion could expand into it?

I... genuinely did not imagine you might have wanted to do that.

[Jub]

Maine was originally in Orion's borders, but with the request to create some more defensible borders I ended up cutting it out. If Eternal wants it back, the border is easily changed, but I figured that Imperial528 might want to beef up his starting area a bit so I didn't exactly go out of my way to include all of Orion's initial claims within the new borders.

You'll see what I mean when you're able to compare the old world map and the most recent edit.

[Imperial528]

Eternal, you've lost a fair chunk of land, but everything borders a river now for defense. The new layout also gives Imperial a bit more room in New England should he want to expand.

<snip>

Personally I'd rather E_F get to keep the territory, like this:



Black is me, green for E_F.

[Simon_Jester]

[Translates a song from Spanish to provide a moderately badass battle-song for his army]

Maine was originally in Orion's borders, but with the request to create some more defensible borders I ended up cutting it out. If Eternal wants it back, the border is easily changed, but I figured that Imperial528 might want to beef up his starting area a bit so I didn't exactly go out of my way to include all of Orion's initial claims within the new borders.

You'll see what I mean when you're able to compare the old world map and the most recent edit.

It seems likely that it would be in some ways easier to defend Orion's heartland if they control both banks of the St. Lawrence.

You want your frontier to run along a river line because it's hard to cross the river. But if there is a river which realistically represents the main economic artery of your nation's life and commerce, then you definitely want both banks of that river to be secure, so that random pirates and thieves can't hop in a boat and harass your core territory.

[madd0ct0r]

first draft if people would be interested in this?

Physiologically the hyenorks aren't human. An adult female stands a comfortable 3m tall or 2m at rest with a Summer weight of 200-300 kg. Born and built for the tundra, hyenorks have thick dark fur, stubby thick limbs, broad shoulders and stupidly heavy jaws compared a human. Bipedal over short distances, they palm walk when required to move further then a sprint. Their front paws are tipped with heavy claws and lack fur. To prevent overheating in the chase, blood vessels in their palms dilate, using the cold ground as a heat-sink. For a hyenaork, a handshake is a deeply intimate act.

There are no hyenork cities. There are no hyenork famers. What use is a farm to a carnivore in the tundra? Clans of females follow the herds of tundra grazers as they follow the seasons. Each female will have up to four kits a year, but only one of those four is likely to survive to adulthood and reaching 30 years old is very rare. Males form smaller bands of a dozen at most, and travel between female clans. Social status is gained in wrestling matches, and silver scarring rippling through fur is considered deeply beautiful.

As might be expected for nomadic pastoralists, as a race they are largely in the stone and ice age. Leather from mammoths or rhino is the major resource, with many household items being made from combinations of animal skins, bones and compacted ice. Wood is sometimes harvested in the southern parts of their range, stone and flint from the south side of peaks. War Parties will often seize iron tools and weapons as loot. Slaving has been known, but is largely considered a waste of time unless of other Hyenorks. A typical warparty might consist of a dozen males, armed with leather slings, claws and their heavy jaws, capable of crushing through mammoth bone. Armour is typically layered leather across the shoulders, with particular attention to the head. Frequent decorative motifs are clan markings, bloodlines, and the Summer Sun. Female clans with semi-domesticated mammoths or rhinos will also wield a long stone tipped club made from bone or imported wood. Southern clans that herd the more delicate forest caribou sometimes also carry leather whips or flails. A war party will rampage southwards until dead, rich and fat or forced back north by the start of summer and rising temperatures. Hyenorks are at risk of overheating from exertion at temperatures warmer then 10 Deg C (50F)

Magic wielders are rare amongst the clans, literacy rarer still. Hyenorks have a natural healing magic, but it simply allows them to close wounds and bounce back much faster. Using this power takes a lot of body fat, and it is the mark of a successful clan that they have a rich enough diet to indulge in wicked brawls. Limbs and eyes do not regrow, and brain damage will result in severe personality loss or worse as neural patterns are overwritten with new, random growth.

Religion is not organised and remains an awareness of omens, of small gods and spirits and advisers to clan matriarchs. Major universal beliefs are in the cyclic battle between the Summer Sun and the Howling Night. One is a symbol of good luck, comradeship and fat bellies; the other of darkest nights, starvation and cannibalism. The Wendigo is a curse laid upon any Hyenork who consumes another's still living flesh. The Wendigo grows continuously and painfully. It is always on the brink of starvation, and any meal consumed just makes it grow faster. Unable to put on weight and maddened by hunger, Wendigo's rarely survive a year in the tundra.

The Northern Lights are thought to represent the ghost world, of spirits fighting to prove themselves worthy to be born. It is said some Hyenork's can read the future in the sky, but it is also said the moon is a great skull, full of marrow and brain and ripe to be crushed.

[madd0ct0r]

Ghetto edit. I'd count each hyenork warrior as two points in value.

[Eternal_Freedom]

If Imperial528 is happy to let me have Maine/New Brunswick, I'll take it. Go ahead and use his suggested borders please

I suppose I should add that we Orions have a dislike for nomadic non-humans. Though a scientific curiosity as to how other intelligent bipeds developed exists, they are mostly seen as little better than tribal animals. We don't exactly go out hunting them down, and there is even some limited trade across Hudson Bay from the northern city of Fenris, but generally/officially they are ignored.

[Imperial528]

That's not just Maine, it's all of New England east of the Green Mountains.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Shows how much I know of North American geography

Seriously though, if you're happy with those borders, go with it. Unless you want to throw in some NPC city-states in that area for us to conquer, uh, I mean interact with

[Imperial528]

Well, I left Long Island if anyone wants to put a micro state there. It'd also be nice to know how far Simon's borders go into Pennsylvania. Say Simon, what are your thoughts on close borders?

[Jub]

Here's the latest update to the map.

[The Romulan Republic]

Excellent, presuming no one else objects.

I'm going to be going back over what everyone has said regarding rules and such and come up with an updated version of the rules for your consideration. Following that, I hope to put an OOB thread up.

Not sure how long it'll be until we get the actual story rolling. I don't want to leave it too long, but with Christmas coming up, I figure a lot of people might be busy for the next couple of weeks.

[Simon_Jester]

Shows how much I know of North American geography

Seriously though, if you're happy with those borders, go with it. Unless you want to throw in some NPC city-states in that area for us to conquer, uh, I mean interact with

Imperial528's polity is a confederation of independent city states and (relatively) minor kingdoms, just as a reminder.

Well, I left Long Island if anyone wants to put a micro state there. It'd also be nice to know how far Simon's borders go into Pennsylvania. Say Simon, what are your thoughts on close borders?

Positively, they make for interesting problems. They also present a significant obstacle to the Empire's long-range dreams of conquering the Monongahela and Alleghany river basins and finally controlling the headwaters of the Ohio... and of pushing east along the shore of Lake Erie up to Buffalo.

By all means, roll your frontiers west a few hundred miles, up to, oh, Erie, Pennsylvania and the Alleghany and the Monongahela. Honestly, anyone independent in that area might want to join you anyway; they've been watching the Empire march upriver at an average speed of a few miles a year for the past century or two.

To recap, the position of my borders can be observed by looking at any political map of the United States. This one's a good choice because it comes with the Ohio Valley overlaid.

http://outreach.lrh.usace.army.mil/Basi ... Cities.png

Start in or very near the northeastern corner of Ohio, on the shore of Lake Erie. Follow a line in a generally south-by-southeasterly direction until you reach the site of OTL Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania (here a heavily garrisoned and fortified town called 'Duquesne,' with forts and cannon batteries that control the place where the Monongahela and Alleghany Rivers flow together to form the Ohio).

The border then curves back along the Ohio River and cuts away from the river in a southeasterly direction, headed off for a point in eastern Tennessee where it meets the fan of rivers at the head of the Tennessee River.

So...

Duquesne represents the easternmost point of the Empire's control of the Ohio River valley, and the easternmost point on Imperial soil is probably a border checkpoint a few miles up the Alleghany from the confluence.

So in other words, the question "how much of Pennsylvania does the Empire own" is "almost none of it, a strip between zero and thirty miles wide shaved off the extreme western edge of the state."

[The Romulan Republic]

Jub, I'd rather recruit another player or two than physically compress the map of the North American continent.

Agreed, presuming we can get more people to join.

Aaaand... TRR, we only have seven players so far. The real question is, who are we going to bring in, who wants to take nations in the Great Plains? That's the missing link.

If anyone knows someone who might be interested, by all means PM them and ask if they're interested in joining.

[Simon_Jester]

As a random suggestion, you could PM one of the Gaming-and-Computers mods about posting a recruitment thread in the main game forum? I suspect a lot of people just completely ignore the STGOD forum at the moment, because effectively nothing has happened here since last winter, and we've only had two rather... sputtery and abortive... games here in the past four years.