Pre-industrial Fantasy STGOD OOC/Rules Thread:

[Zwinmar]

The Polish Winged Hussars carried three (one under left thigh, one under right and one at the waist...the two under are obviously under the saddle), I am going with 2 plus a bayonet. The Minie ball is after this time period anyways.

[Simon_Jester]

OK fine, just checking and pointing out that the real advantage of the Minie ball was the way it allowed rifles to fire rapidly, so the disadvantage of slow-firing rifles is still in play.

And, hm... I'm inspired by 17th century France, I probably have a small corps of sharpshooters, but only a small one. Smaller-barreled rifles, comparable barrel length, because "Kentucky rifle" is too good to pass up and I DO have some remote hillbilly territories in my nation. They may be more heavily settled than the historical 1800-era Applachians, but they're still a long way from major cities and centers of production for things like lead for bullets.

[Aasharu]

I imagine the Tarnish attitude towards firearms is that they are an interesting new invention, and many of the barons (and certainly the Triumvirate,) are smart and tactical enough to understand why they're so useful, but they are somewhat redundant in Tarn. One of the largest advantages of firearms over other weapons, as I understand it, is that they are very easy to learn to use, and almost anyone can use them with only minimal training. However, skeletons and zombies are too mindless to use them, even when being controlled, and most every other being in Tarn is undead, and therefore at least a low level necromancer, so capable of magic that can match a gun, if not exceed it for the barons. About the only place you'll find guns would be in the hands of the bodyguards of powerful mortals in Sanctuary.

[Esquire]

Updated nation profile, now with preliminary order of battle:

Osmanli Surgun Devleti
Ottoman Empire-in-Exile


Overview
The Ottoman Empire in the Americas dates from 1453, when the desperate Eastern Roman Empire, with nowhere to turn in the face of overwhelming Turkish might, sacrificed fully half the collected Imperial treasure-store to the ancestral pantheon - specifically Poseidon, the God Who Shakes the Islands - for deliverance. Just moments after they embarked from their Anatolian camps, Sultan Mehmet's troops found themselves in the midst of the fiercest storm any of them, indeed any human since Atlantis had seen. The storm blew for weeks, hurricane-force winds shattering the masts of the ships and the oars of the galleys, hundred-foot waves tossing men and beasts into the raging sea, drowning thousands, and when it finally subsided the Sultan's army was further from their ancient homeland than any of them had ever been. Mehmet and his chief captains landed at the mouth of a great river, the equal of the Nile, and considered their situation. They knew not where they were, or what had happened, but it was clear to all that there could be no return. Whatever force had cast them here could do so again, easily, even if they knew how to return to the Mediterranean. The army quickly set about building a camp from the wreckage of their ships, then a city from the pines they found growing nearby. The local tribes, faced with either peaceful assimilation or a starving army of 100,000 battle-hardened men on their borders, quickly submitted to Turkish rule, and the tolerant Ottoman tradition made for a rapid merging of the two societies.

Over the next centuries, the fiery Islam of Mehmet and his men faded, replaced with a more animistic worship of the Great River as a kind of All-Merciful Providing Spirit. The River brought the exiled Ottomans their food, their brides, and their trade; while they began by thanking Allah for the River, the exiled Turks soon found themselves thanking the River directly. Without any clear idea of where Mecca lay, they oriented their mosques north, towards the headwaters of the River, and their soldiers cried "there is no God but God, and his River is the River." Mehmet and his successors pushed the Empire's borders northwards along the Great River, fighting when needed but largely preferring to assimilate local populations in order to add to the Imperial population. By most counts the Sultan's domains now include nearly ten million people, most at least nominally adherents to the new River-Islam.

The Empire of today is a unique mix of Mehmet's centralizing Islam and the more democratic animism of the natives. By the time the Empire re-established contact with Europe in 1577, it was too established in its new home to return, and the power vacuum left by Mehmet's disappearance had been filled for a century. Extensive trade across the Atlantic and throughout the Caribbean keeps the Ottoman coffers full, but there is no possibility of a transatlantic Ottoman superstate. The Empire is bookended by the great cities of Yenistanbul, the New City, where Mehmet's troops first landed (OTL New Orleans, more-or-less) and Mehmetan, the City of Mehmet, near the northern extent of Ottoman territory (OTL St. Louis). Mehmetan, while only five decades old, benefited greatly from the conquest of Cahokia, a huge native mound-city across the River; its population was resettled to the strategic confluence of the Great River and the Missouri (the latter called by its native name, the former by its Ottoman) after its priest-kings refused to convert. Only limited settlement has taken place East of the River, as most Ottomans prefer to have one border secured by the physical embodiment of their God.


Technology
Overview
Ottoman science has progressed in fits and starts since the Exile, and remains at a very uneven level today. Militarily, Imperial artillery is some of the best available, with high-quality craftsmanship mated to efficient standardization. Other weaponry is mediocre at best; muskets are optimized for rapid fire rather than accuracy or reliability, as Ottoman troops prefer to use the shock of a few vollies to cover their advance into grenade and melee range instead of exchange fire, and troops wear armor not substantially different (mail and segmented plate) from what Mehmet the Exile's forces wore. In part, this is due to the comparative ease of Imperial expansion up the Great River. Massed cavalry was usually good enough to secure victory against native forces, and when it was not the sheer ferocity of Ottoman infantry could be relied upon to do so. The current Sultan is aware that other powers have surpassed his subjects' science, and is seeking ways to address the problem.

Industrially, the Empire is very proficient in its traditional areas of expertise. Ottoman textiles and ceramics are unmatched, supporting the extensive trade networks that enrich the Sultan's treasury. A mix of native and traditional foods are grown and harvested, with rice, wheat, corn, and sweet potatoes being the prime food crops and chickens the prime livestock - cows and goats are kept largely for milk, instead of meat. The Empire is also blessed with substantial mineral wealth, with huge reserves of lead, iron, and diamonds. An unusual ore called 'bauxite' has been recently discovered, but no clear use for it has been found as yet.

Magically, Ottoman priests have managed to meld River-Islamic theology and traditionally craftsmanship admirably. Etched Koranic verses lend strength and flexibility to armor, sharpness to blades, and accuracy to cannon and (very high-end) hand weapons. The same techniques are used to produce the equally beautiful and useful tiles that coat the outer faces of Ottoman fortresses and warships. Similar effects can be achieved in fabric media, and the successful development of cavalry lizards from native alligators is detailed below. That said, commonplace Ottoman magic is largely passive in nature, with only a few ghazi Orders preferring to use the supernatural offensively as a matter of course. Some philosophers have speculated, however, that this might change if the Empire ever found itself in serious conflict with a more obviously-magical state - the remains of Islamic reticence concerning the supernatural grow weaker ever year.


Military

Overview
The Imperial army is structured along the lines of Mehmet's forces, with a strong core of regular Janissary troops directly serving the Sultan (though without their traditional recruitment areas the Corps has become an elite volunteer organization drawing from the whole Empire), and a mass of feudal troops of varying quality supporting them. The Ottomans learned from the native shamans, though, and new orders of ghazis (holy warriors empowered by the River God and various subservient spirits) fight alongside the army. They may be thought of as analogous to the Old World's religious knightly orders; technically subservient to the Sultan in his role as Caliph, but prone to independent action when least convenient. The Empire has been resistant towards using magical beasts in battle, with one comparatively recent and very noteworthy exception, but does not mind dealing with nonhuman civilizations in order to obtain a strategic or economic advantage.

Ottoman troops are mixed, in many senses - cavalry and infantry are (often) integrated at the regimental level, and divinely-empowered ghazis fight side-by-side with sword-armed irregulars and line infantry carrying grenades and bayoneted muskets. The nobility and their retainers provide most of the Imperial cavalry, mostly heavy lancers and pistol-and-saber armed hussar-type light cavalry. Artillery has progressed significantly since the days of Mehmet, with paired batteries of heavy (24-pounder or larger) and light (12- or 8-pounder) guns attached at the regimental level. Battalions, usually two to the regiment, usually have a battery or two of very light artillery, 1- or 2-pounders with special mounts, as organic fire support and anti-air artillery.

At sea and on the Great River, the Empire makes heavy use of large sail/oar hybrid galleys called xebecs. A typical specimen will mount 24 to 30 guns and etched-tile plating, carrying up to two hundred troops for boarding actions and extra strength on the oars. Very fast, they can sail very close to the wind, or row directly against it, and use that maneuverability to dictate the terms of engagement. Additionally, a squadron of heavy ocean-going warships harbors at Yenistanbul.

There are three divisions of Janissaries subdivided into three infantry brigades and three cavalry brigades. These are the Sultan's elite troops, and the artillery of the Janissary Corps is trained in grand battery tactics and equipped with the best guns Ottoman forges can cast, as well as experimental howitzer-type weapons. Two of the cavalry brigades are heavy lancers, the last - unique in the Ottoman army - is trained as dragoons, the best of the best, able to fight equally well on foot or astride their magically-enhanced armored lizards. These beasts, bred from crocodiles native to the swamplands around Yenistanbul, can run as quickly as a horse for great distances without tiring, bite clean through an armored man, and have their scales etched with verses from the Holy Koran for added protection from mystical attack. These are the only magical beasts employed by the Sultan's forces, having first been used in the conquest of Cahokia. The infantry of the Corps eschews bayonets, preferring to drop their muskets in favor of grenades and their trusty yataghans when the enemy draws near. Janissary troops have never broken on the field of battle, though several units have died to a man rather than retreat.

Feudal troops are largely cavalry, and largely light cavalry at that. Smaller detachments are amalgamated into regional regiments; great nobles raise coherent units. Feudal infantry are mostly armed with bayoneted muskets, dedicated grenadier companies, and short swords, though a few pike-and-shot formations survive on the Eastern frontier, where the Great River limits potential invasion routes to predictable landing zones or fords. Regimental artillery is not, generally, trained in divisional or corps coordination.

The ghazi Orders tend to be self-contained combined-arms formations, with their own organic infantry, cavalry, and artillery (or their supernatural equivalents). The Ottoman military tradition has led to the Orders organizing themselves along regimental lines; there are twenty currently-recognized orders, each with its own secret teachings and special military focuses.

Order of Battle, Osmanli Ordu (Ottoman Army)

• Janissary Corps, 30,000 men in six brigades totaling 110,000 points.
  • 3x Janissary Infantry Brigade, elite line infantry/shock grenadiers, each 5,000 strong including attached artillery. 15,000 points per brigade, 45,000 total.
    2x Janissary Lancer Brigade, elite armored lancers, each 5,000 strong. 20,000 points per brigade, 40,000 total.
    1x Janissary Lizard Dragoon Brigade, elite magically-enhanced dragoons, 5,000 strong including attached artillery. 25,000 points.
  Noble Levees, 60,000 men in 60 independent regiments totaling 115,000 points.
  • 11x Sipahi Heavy Cavalry Regiment, armored lancers/melee cavalry, each 1,000 strong. 3,000 points per regiment, 33,000 points total.
    15x Akinci Light Cavalry Regiment, scout/raider cavalry, each 1,000 strong. 2,000 points per regiment, 30,000 points total.
    21x Yaya Infantry Regiment, line infantry, each 1,000 strong. 2,000 points per regiment, 42,000 points total.
    10x Sekban Infantry Regiment, pike-and-shot, each 1,000 strong, 1,000 points per regiment, 10,000 points total.
  Ghazi Orders, 20,000 men in 20 Orders totalling 60,000 points.
  • [Details to follow]

Order of Battle, Osmanli Donanmasi (Ottoman Navy)

• Yenistanbul Fleet, 67 ships totaling 8,200 points.
  • 67x Xebec, hybrid sail/oar galley with 24 medium guns. 100 points per ship, 6,700 points total.
    9x 42-gun Heavy Frigate. 300 points per ship, 2,700 points total.
    19x 36-gun Frigate, 200 points per ship, 3,800 points total.
  Mehmetan Fleet, 120 ships totaling 6,800 points.
  • 48x Xebec, 4,800 points total.
    80x River Gunboat, flatboat with light cannon, 25 points per ship, 2,000 points total.

[Esquire]

Oh, in case you don't catch it above - it turns out I have a crapload of lead in my territory; Missouri has 90% of US lead production. You may present your bids now.

[Raw Shark]

Oh, in case you don't catch it above - it turns out I have a crapload of lead in my territory; Missouri has 90% of US lead production. You may present your bids now.

This is probably a matter of some division in Ottoman lands, but IMHO most non-absolutists would see the Ocean God and River God as cousins or something... We have more in common than we don't, and no land borders to worry about inconvenient incidents over... You know you want the fan rocks and alchemical viagra...

[Simon_Jester]

Esquire: Still thinking, but the Ohio Valley is fairly rich country; I'm sure something can be worked out.

I imagine the Tarnish attitude towards firearms is that they are an interesting new invention, and many of the barons (and certainly the Triumvirate,) are smart and tactical enough to understand why they're so useful, but they are somewhat redundant in Tarn. One of the largest advantages of firearms over other weapons, as I understand it, is that they are very easy to learn to use, and almost anyone can use them with only minimal training. However, skeletons and zombies are too mindless to use them, even when being controlled, and most every other being in Tarn is undead, and therefore at least a low level necromancer, so capable of magic that can match a gun, if not exceed it for the barons. About the only place you'll find guns would be in the hands of the bodyguards of powerful mortals in Sanctuary.

One of your Ohioan death knights, Giles of Montmorency, is still trying to teach zombies to use muskets.

[Raw Shark]

I imagine the Tarnish attitude towards firearms is that they are an interesting new invention, and many of the barons (and certainly the Triumvirate,) are smart and tactical enough to understand why they're so useful, but they are somewhat redundant in Tarn. One of the largest advantages of firearms over other weapons, as I understand it, is that they are very easy to learn to use, and almost anyone can use them with only minimal training. However, skeletons and zombies are too mindless to use them, even when being controlled, and most every other being in Tarn is undead, and therefore at least a low level necromancer, so capable of magic that can match a gun, if not exceed it for the barons. About the only place you'll find guns would be in the hands of the bodyguards of powerful mortals in Sanctuary.

How about black powder pistols as a duelling weapon for vampires and other sapient undead? Large, soft lead shot that hurts like a motherfucker but won't permanently injure anybody is a pretty good way to avenge an insult like you mean business but don't mean ending a centuries old life kind of business among the nearly-invulnerable.

[Simon_Jester]

I still can't believe you trolled me into outlawing chocolate, Raw Shark.

[weeps]



...

Be advised, Esquire, that the natives of fantasy North America appear to be Iron Agers, although they may be relatively primitive ones. They were easier meat than Mongols or Byzantines at their peak, though.

I wonder if there are any Ottomans who think that the Ohio is the real river once you get north of Cairo. One could make a justification for it; certainly the Ohioans think that Cairo is the site where another river joins the Ohio from the north and the Ohio turns to flow south to the sea.

[This is the same opinion held by many Native American tribes, and modern American hydrologists]

[Panzersharkcat]

Rough idea for their history. Adjust as needed for different eras. Will need more research for their economy, but it's likely limited amounts of agriculture, with fishing, whaling, lumber, and furs as their primary goods for both domestic consumption and trade, along with some precious metal mining.

The Bastians, so named by Europeans after the Egyptian cat goddess, originate from the Great Plains. They existed alongside the humans of the area, competing for food and resources, even hunting humans for food if the opportunity came. (To be fair to the Bastians, that typically happened as a result of humans engaging in cattle... er... bison-rustling. Stealing one of the primary food sources of obligate carnivores is not the best idea.) However, they were out-competed and fled north after a series of wars with their neighbors severely diminished their population. They were shunted into Alaska after coming into conflict or being refused asylum by every civilization they came across (the whole eating people thing did not exactly endear them to those groups), particularly the Hyenorks. By the time they arrived in Alaska, their population had dwindled to a mere 10000. In their desperation, they called out to the heavens for aid. A great frost dragon took pity on them and granted the gift of cryomancy to the leaders of the various tribes and physiological adaptations for the climate in general. The Bastians used their newly granted gifts to subdue the human societies around them and bring them into submission, establishing themselves as their overlords. Revolts by the majority human population shifted their status over hundreds of years from mere chattel to second-class citizens, with some rights and protections granted to them, including murder charges if a Bastian eats one of them. At the time of story, the population of the Bastian Dominion is approximately 250,000, with about 50,000 Bastians.

[Shinn Langley Soryu]

I Can't Believe It's Not Spain

You and I have quite a few things to discuss, then.

Part of the backstory for Fusang involves the Kingdom of Cordoba, which maintained settlements in historical Alta California that were later absorbed into the Heavenly Kingdom. Perhaps pseudo-Spain had already established settlements in Mexico and the American Southwest before suffering numerous setbacks; Fusang played a role in California, but your Aztecs most likely bore the most responsibility for the collapse of pseudo-Spanish rule in North America.

Considering that you've written the Aztecs as having an army that's spread extremely thin (at least that's how I understand it), perhaps there are former Cordoban/pseudo-Spanish territories that retain some de facto independence. I made a throwaway reference to a particularly powerful city-state on the site of the OTL San Diego-Tijuana metropolitan area that represents the last great remnant of Cordoban rule in North America; perhaps it could make an interesting diplomatic football for Fusang and the Aztecs to play with.

[Imperial528]

One of your Ohioan death knights, Giles of Montmorency, is still trying to teach zombies to use muskets.

"No, no! The smaller end points towards the enemy! And you there, stop using your weapon as a club when you started a good twenty yards away! Now, where were we"
*bang*
"Great, now you've gone and blown your face off. Less ugly now, at least."

[Simon_Jester]

Indeed. After a few decades of this, Giles settled down to trying to create a smarter zombie. All that's really required is to carry out the drill. It is believable that a trained monkey could operate a flintlock musket. The problem is that it is not easy to create a zombie as smart and dextrous as a trained monkey.

He is still convinced it can be done, though.

[Raw Shark]

I still can't believe you trolled me into outlawing chocolate, Raw Shark.

[weeps]

I can't, either. This is the most hardcore shit we've seen from Ohio yet.

[Raw Shark]

I Can't Believe It's Not Spain

You and I have quite a few things to discuss, then.

Part of the backstory for Fusang involves the Kingdom of Cordoba, which maintained settlements in historical Alta California that were later absorbed into the Heavenly Kingdom. Perhaps pseudo-Spain had already established settlements in Mexico and the American Southwest before suffering numerous setbacks; Fusang played a role in California, but your Aztecs most likely bore the most responsibility for the collapse of pseudo-Spanish rule in North America.

Considering that you've written the Aztecs as having an army that's spread extremely thin (at least that's how I understand it), perhaps there are former Cordoban/pseudo-Spanish territories that retain some de facto independence. I made a throwaway reference to a particularly powerful city-state on the site of the OTL San Diego-Tijuana metropolitan area that represents the last great remnant of Cordoban rule in North America; perhaps it could make an interesting diplomatic football for Fusang and the Aztecs to play with.

I was picturing my history with pseudo-Spain to be a case of them failing to conquer me and then me crossing the pond to engage in a little gunboat diplomacy until they agreed to stay fucked off and to give us some sweet trade concessions, more than me kicking them out of anywhere else on the continent; The Aztecs don't do force projection on land very well, or at all, really. Maybe Tarn and the Goblins got in on it...

A powerful city state around Tijuanna / San Diego would probably be able to survive and even thrive sandwiched between us after being cut off from support from the motherland, too expensive and probably too useful for either of us to attempt to crush despite probably also being a haven for piracy. In particular, it gives our peoples both a place in our backyards to buy and export things one or both of us considers illegal, for us to have diplomatic meetings off the books, etc. I propose that we name it Casablanca and give it two thumbs up.

[Zwinmar]

A Stele is placed at the major enterance before every city, village and town. Some are stone other iron, yet they are all the same: a wolfs head on top, face away from the center and runes decorating the column three quarters of the way down. The bottom third is inscribed with a script similar to cuniform in appearance and smells of a deep musk. These stele are the major laws of the land and the crime with the worst punishment is to deface the law.

Each and every Thyrs carries with them a small container not unlike a salt shaker, some are simple others are ornate depending on the personality of the Thyrs carrying it. It contains a course mineral not unlike salt though darker in appearance. Before each meal said mixture is sprinkled lightly on the meal in question and the phrase "keep madness from me" is uttered. Attempting to part a Thyrs from this container is the quickest way to commit suicide as all Thyrs present with attack to retrieve the container if needed. If added to a flame the mixture always burns with a dark crimson flame.

Upon reaching the age of 14 all Thyrs, male and female, spend 5 years in the mines. Upon completion of their time, only then do they receive the ritual facial scars that adults carry, and only then do they recieve a name that is recorded in the stone archives of the capitol.

The mines are heavily guarded and protected at all costs.

--------------------------------
OOC information:
Some of these mines are Lithium mines (and need a name to call the powder they carry) as it is the only thing that is keeping the Thyrs civilized. Without it they will descend into madness and blood fury. So of course their are rituals for it not unlike those surrounding salt in the middle east.

[Eternal_Freedom]

FYI everyone I'm travelling a lot over the next couple of days, so I may not be able to post or respond quickly until Monday time. I'll probably be able to get some more detailed background and an amended/expanded OOB drawn up soon-ish though.

[Simon_Jester]

I still can't believe you trolled me into outlawing chocolate, Raw Shark.
[weeps]

I can't, either. This is the most hardcore shit we've seen from Ohio yet.

I have some more hardcore shit than this planned. But not much.

I think it's safe to assume that the Ohioan Empire has a very fucking serious problem with smuggled contraband chocolate.

[Raw Shark]

You're not the only ones; the debasement and distribution for profit of chocoatl has been widely-decried as the harbinger of doom for Aztec society by our priesthood, causing an internal rift between the merchant and clergy classes, especially in the face of outside territorial pressures and a certain recent... Irritability, among the Gods.

[Simon_Jester]

Hm. Maybe we can work something out; your terrifying supernatural creature can meet with my terrifying supernatural creature... oh wait, I don't have one handy. Hm. Maybe I can work on that?

Will think about it.

[Raw Shark]

Not all of my supernatural creatures are so terrifying. In particular, we have social mages, a certain sort of cat people for those who find those exciting, and expatriot Vampire playboy socialites from Tarn who mostly got forced out by politics but are otherwise pretty charming.

[Simon_Jester]

Well, at the moment I don't have any supernatural creatures, and the only one I'm contemplating obtaining is really quite terrific, so we might need one of your scaries just for parity's sake.

Although I'm not sure what I'm doing on that front, that plot hasn't gelled.

[The Romulan Republic]

This is also my first attempt at this sort of thing, and I'm a little hazy on how to scale up non-standard resources and how the economy works, so any suggestions on the value of the following ideas would be much appreciated:

Sorry I didn't get back to you sooner on this, though I see Simon_Jester has weighed in.

1: I want to have a really strong economy for a nation that's a little behind the front of the pack, technologically, in most areas and regarded as a little worrisome by some people. Lots of trade, including overseas if possible (I want to have I Can't Believe It's Not Spain as a client state that imports tobacco from me under ruinous tariffs if that's not too outlandish).

You can certainly have as strong an economy as anyone else even your tech. is more primitive. It sounds like you'll be using magic to make up for the tech. deficiencies, like a lot of us.

Trade with NPCs off the map is explicitly permitted in the rules, with certain limitations.

I think having an off-map nation as a client state is pushing it a bit. Certainly I wouldn't want to see off-map NPCs being called in for military aid. As a trading partner, no problem.

Technological gaps are made up with magic in some cases, as is the case with our seafaring capability, but all of our really snazzy magic is fueled by sacrifice, with blood sacrifice required for the most potent displays, so it is not used frivolously by most sane people and we lag behind in many other areas. This trend is reversed regarding healing magic and mundane medicine, however, as the gods of Death, War, and the Underworld tend to regard it at best as tacky, and in some cases as outright theft of their personal property, but don't care and kind of like it if we hack each other up or stuff toxic herbs down each other's throats. We're surprisingly up to the state of the art on mundane surgery and sanitation, therefore, and have some herbal remedies that do more than nothing and are sometimes in vogue with foreign elites. We're also up to the state of the art in the fields of astronomy and astrology, which the Priesthood take very seriously, and navigation as a knock-off of that.

This mostly sounds fine. Got a nice mix of strengths and weaknesses.

Depending on how advanced said medicine and astronomy are, they might break the rules on tech. limitations. Could you specify a bit more? Still, I might be willing to make an exception in this case. Maybe.

I would expect cutting edge stuff to cost you quite a lot of points per unit, as I stated in the main rules posts.

2: I want to have a strong navy and a decent sized land force, whose strength is mitigated by being spread too thin, especially along the Northern border, and almost nonexistent inland. The Empire has grown overreliant on the hostile terrain of the Northernmost territories to dissuade attackers, and is more concerned with garrisoning its trading ports and Southern border. Fear keeps the local villages in line. Fear of this batt- er, divine wrath, summary mob justice by people afraid of Divine wrath landing in their neighborhood, and the priesthood's constables (emphasis on the stab) in roughly that order. On the other hand, our network of magical cacti do report large-scale border penetrations fairly reliably unless muted or deceived with magic; their yodeling takes a while to reach civilization, but propagates exponentially, so we're almost never completely caught with our pants down.

This is great just for the image it gives me of an invading army stumbling upon a field of yodelling cacti, and then trying to cut them all down or burn them as quickly as possible.

I have to ask, though- can the cacti of doom be fooled? For example, my people like their illusion magic. Could they cast a spell that would allow a raiding party (if not a full army) to slip by them unreported?

3: I'd like what massed forces I do have to lean heavily on monsters. Especially the kind of nightmare fuel that acts as a force-multiplier, not necessarily direct battlefield power. In particular, I'd like to have domesticated Chupacabrae, about the size and toughness of a large dog and as smart as Lassie. They're not able to carry a human (except for my literally small elite corps of magically-shrunken Owl Knights, who serve as my spies in the air), but they can be trained to take out sentries and attack encampments stealthily at night, with their ability to descend from the sky, see in the dark perfectly, and silently leave blood-drained corpses in their wake. Once they have the scent of blood, they can track it better than an OTL bloodhound, but only as good as a German Shepherd at smelling anything else. With my proximity to Tarn, I also figure we have a large expatriot population of Vampires, who find the local culture as welcoming as they're liable to find anywhere and like that the climate makes people more active later in the evening hours than the middle of the day. They tend to not be very patriotic by nature, since they're unliving here in the first place, so their participation in warfare is less probable than evacuation in the event of conquest. Less so with the were jaguars, who are proud of their ancestral land and grudgingly accept the Empire as their legitimate overlords after centuries of bloodshed. They're as strong, fast, stealthy, tough, perceptive, and agile as regular Jaguars, with human intelligence, but normal bullets kill them and they can't carry equipment when transformed, so their utility is limited.

Excellent.

4: And of course, the Gods. None would ever stoop to joining the military as anything other than ad hoc commander if it suited their whims, but they will defend themselves if attacked, and are highly territorial in some cases. This makes them a wild card in the event of invasion, occasionally incredibly dangerous to outsiders, but not unlikely to fight each other if two show up, or to kill indiscriminately, or to just grab a bag of roasted maize kernels and laugh at the carnage happening around them. Long story short, I don't want to pay for them as a military or economic asset, I want to just treat them as a hazardous feature of the landscape, except as has already been covered in whatever the ongoing effects of my good relationship with the Ocean has on my Shipping and navy, so however much of a loose cannon everybody thinks they need to be for that to be the result, let's make it so.

I'm nervous about this, because if your deities are super powerful but not counted as part of your points, and can participate in combat... well, there's a reason its called god mode.

I like the idea fine from a narrative perspective, but for practical purposes- use this very sparingly, and primarily on your own forces. Please don't unleash deities on another's forces/territory without their agreement. Otherwise I'll have to let everyone use gods all the time just to keep it fair, which I suppose for this setting is the equivalent of the whole thing devolving into a mass nuclear exchange.

5: Am I forgetting anything important? Thanks!

Not that I am aware of. I'll let you know if anything else comes to mind.

[Simon_Jester]

Trade with NPCs off the map is explicitly permitted in the rules, with certain limitations.

I think having an off-map nation as a client state is pushing it a bit. Certainly I wouldn't want to see off-map NPCs being called in for military aid. As a trading partner, no problem.

Under the circumstances, I can't imagine the Aztecs wanting Not!Spanish troops to come in and aid them militarily.

If he did want some force of their troops available to him, couldn't he just build into his own order of battle and pay points for it? Then it would just be another part of 'his' army for gameplay purposes, regardless of the fluff.

Depending on how advanced said medicine and astronomy are, they might break the rules on tech. limitations. Could you specify a bit more? Still, I might be willing to make an exception in this case. Maybe.

It doesn't sound like he actually plans anything along those lines..

On the other hand, our network of magical cacti do report large-scale border penetrations fairly reliably unless muted or deceived with magic; their yodeling takes a while to reach civilization, but propagates exponentially, so we're almost never completely caught with our pants down.

This is great just for the image it gives me of an invading army stumbling upon a field of yodelling cacti, and then trying to cut them all down or burn them as quickly as possible.

I have to ask, though- can the cacti of doom be fooled? For example, my people like their illusion magic. Could they cast a spell that would allow a raiding party (if not a full army) to slip by them unreported?

I think that sounds like it falls under "deceived with magic?"

4: And of course, the Gods. None would ever stoop to joining the military as anything other than ad hoc commander if it suited their whims, but they will defend themselves if attacked, and are highly territorial in some cases. This makes them a wild card in the event of invasion, occasionally incredibly dangerous to outsiders, but not unlikely to fight each other if two show up, or to kill indiscriminately, or to just grab a bag of roasted maize kernels and laugh at the carnage happening around them. Long story short, I don't want to pay for them as a military or economic asset, I want to just treat them as a hazardous feature of the landscape, except as has already been covered in whatever the ongoing effects of my good relationship with the Ocean has on my Shipping and navy, so however much of a loose cannon everybody thinks they need to be for that to be the result, let's make it so.

I'm nervous about this, because if your deities are super powerful but not counted as part of your points, and can participate in combat... well, there's a reason its called god mode.

I like the idea fine from a narrative perspective, but for practical purposes- use this very sparingly, and primarily on your own forces. Please don't unleash deities on another's forces/territory without their agreement. Otherwise I'll have to let everyone use gods all the time just to keep it fair, which I suppose for this setting is the equivalent of the whole thing devolving into a mass nuclear exchange.

He pretty much said that was what he had in mind- they're more like a hazardous terrain feature of his own territory than anything else, and could backfire horribly against his own armies in principle.

I know that if I ever field a supernatural creature on a campaign, I'll be paying the points for the intervention.

[The Romulan Republic]

Under the circumstances, I can't imagine the Aztecs wanting Not!Spanish troops to come in and aid them militarily.

If he did want some force of their troops available to him, couldn't he just build into his own order of battle and pay points for it? Then it would just be another part of 'his' army for gameplay purposes, regardless of the fluff.

As to weather they would call in the "Not!Spanish", that's a question for Raw Shark.

To the latter point, that would work fine.

As a rule, though, I don't want to have too much "off-map" stuff getting involved, because then we might as well just start using a whole world map, and we're back to that issue again.

It doesn't sound like he actually plans anything along those lines..

As long as that's the case, no problem.

I think that sounds like it falls under "deceived with magic?"

You are right. My mistake for missing that.

Although some more details on how perceptive they are, exactly, would be appreciated simply out of curiosity.

He pretty much said that was what he had in mind- they're more like a hazardous terrain feature of his own territory than anything else, and could backfire horribly against his own armies in principle.

Yes, I know. I just feel this is an area to be careful/carefully define, because otherwise it would be very easy, even unintentionally for it to become something overpowered and disruptive.

I know that if I ever field a supernatural creature on a campaign, I'll be paying the points for the intervention.

Of course.