European refugee crisis thread

[madd0ct0r]

Bet you £5 by paypal it doesn't happen.

[jwl]

Danish lawmakers want police to be given the power to strip refugees of jewellery and other valuables.

The Danish parliament debated the measure which would allow border police to confiscate jewellery and cash to the value of €300 to cover resettlement costs, Sweden's STV reported.

After the debate, the MPs decided that refugees should be allowed to keep their wedding rings, mobile phones, and laptops in the bill that is expected to be passed when voted on in January.

Sören Pind, Denmark's immigration minister, told Danish television that the measure was necessary as it was the only way the country could afford to resettle refugees in asylum centres.

"I'm talking about a situation in which there are personal items of significant value but no sentimental worth," Pind told the television station. "I'm talking about a situation in which a man comes along with a case full of diamonds and asks for protection in Denmark. That's only fair."

Denmark has introduced several anti-immigration measures in recent months, cutting the benefits that refugees can claim by 50%, and even placed 'Don't come here' adverts in several Arabic newspapers warning refugees that Denmark did not have the capacity to accommodate them.

The policy was introduced by the anti-immigration Danish People's Party, which became the country's second biggest party in June's parliamentary elections.

The policy has provoked comparison with the Nazi policy of confiscating valuables from Jewish and other refugees, with Venstre MP Martin Geertsen calling it "severe personal abuse" that "awakens terrifying historical images".

Zachary Whyte, an asylum and integration researcher at the University of Copenhagen told the Washington Post: "It is pretty telling about the current Danish policies that [some] are not quite sure whether this is a hoax or not."

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/denmark-wants- ... es-1533817

[Broomstick]

Fucking hell.

How about the way the US does it? The money for transportation to the country and initial resettlement is a combination of grants and LOANS. The refugees can pay back the loans out of either personal funds (if they have any) or a payment plan after they are employed. A third party can also cover the cost if that third party chooses to do so. Seems to work pretty good on this side of the pond. Yes, sometimes the loan doesn't get repaid, but more often than not it does.

Of course, that would also require allowing refugees to work. In the US, refugees are granted immediate authorization to work in the country. How about Denmark? Because if a country doesn't allow refugees to work legally and also strips them of valuables when they enter it's nothing more than robbing the desperate. "Your money or your life."

[madd0ct0r]

Just as on the earlier post I cannot find anything in trustworthy media yet.

[Zaune]

It's probably someone's Private Member's Bill, or whatever the Danish equivalent is, from the "fuck off and die sand n****rs" lobby.

[Thanas]

Am I the only one here who knows that there is rightwing nutter party in parliament in the Dutch and that this is the equivalent of a tea party member introducing a bill that requires the building of a fence? AKA a lot of theatrics from somebody with no power.

[Zaune]

Good to know it's not just us then.

[jwl]

Just as on the earlier post I cannot find anything in trustworthy media yet.

I genuinely didn't know that the International Business Times was an unreliable source. Would the Washington Post be better?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wor ... -refugees/

[Broomstick]

Am I the only one here who knows that there is rightwing nutter party in parliament in the Dutch and that this is the equivalent of a tea party member introducing a bill that requires the building of a fence? AKA a lot of theatrics from somebody with no power.

Whenever I hear something like this I HOPE it's a "rightwing nutter party" and not some group able to actually get something make law or policy.

[madd0ct0r]

Just as on the earlier post I cannot find anything in trustworthy media yet.

I genuinely didn't know that the International Business Times was an unreliable source. Would the Washington Post be better?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wor ... -refugees/

well, I was after confirmation. IBT I take with a pinch of salt, purely because i don't know it well or for a while.

[Eleas]

The conspiracy theory that Eleas raised earlier in this thread hinting that their polling numbers are the result of fraud must be considered very implausible in the light of this.

I see you have yet to discover truthfulness, comicalstorm. All that was pointed out was that YouGov reputedly had a history of monetizing self-reporting and changing the numbers once they became too skewed to take seriously. Then again, to your fractured mind, I suppose that is me concocting a "conspiracy theory" -- a subject on which you admittedly must be considered expert.

[cosmicalstorm]

Famous Swede/Kurd economist on the staggering economic madness of the current Swedish immigration financing and education of immigrants, I added the bolded parts:
(In the internal Swedish debate there are many who actually claim that most immigrants hold a high educational level, which is certainly not true. At least in the German debate they have been fairly up front and honest about that great problem, Swedens state television literally said it was "raining competence" a few months ago, sigh.)

- It has not even managed to resolve the exclusion while there has been quite manageable.

Tino Sanandaji deep sigh:

- 33 percent of adults newcomers do not have nine years of compulsory education and can not Swedish. What is the plan to get them into the labor market? Why has not the Treasury Department investigated this? The Riksbank has 350 employees. Why have not they put two people to count on this?

Why unplug the economic problems of immigration? One can also raise taxes?

- At the Tax Agency is the most realistic. They argue that it would withdraw 10-20 billion by closing various holes. I have myself argued. But it is also a one-time effect while immigration is increasing all the time.

There's fortunes to bring home from abroad, if you want.

- We should reintroduce inheritance tax for the rich and a progressive taxation of capital, as in the US and Canada. These tax proposals about redistribution. The bourgeois lowered taxes by $ 100 billion, which went to Swedish households receiving more revenue. Immigration, by contrast, a redistribution to the rest of the world.

It would be well able to see that solidarity and determine that such a policy, we want to bring?

- If you want to be in solidarity with other countries have to do it in a reasonably rational way. Now, perhaps 100-150 billion in a few, very few refugees while denying tens of millions of no help at all.

- The sum of Sweden just adds to the initial reception of refugees is twice as large as the UN's overall budget for all refugees in the world. I do not think it is jointly and severally to cut in child vaccination programs to provide for unaccompanied youths that cost a million each per year. That is not solidarity, it is madness.

One of Tino Sanandajis hobby horses is that there have been and still are an aggressive problem-denial. When the government took in its emergency was because reception system was about to collapse and not on politics had reconsidered.

- What makes people angry is not immigration policy itself, it's all lies. The Swedes are very tolerant and humanist, and that is why they do not like SD. And now reading the on. They look to an authority SCB gives a completely different picture than that given on the evening news. They read foreign media. It will take a few years, then it's over.

What's the end?

- Mass psychosis. There will be an open debate.

Article in Swedish, can be run through Google Translate.
http://www.dagenssamhalle.se/nyhet/mass ... batt-21151

[Broomstick]

It already reads like it took a trip through Google Translate.

I still just see ignorant panic here. None of the problems listed are impossible to solve.

[jwl]

Sweden has introduced identity checks for travellers from Denmark in an attempt to reduce the number of migrants arriving in the country.
All travellers wanting to cross the Oresund bridge by train or bus, or use ferry services, will be refused entry without the necessary documents.
Rail commuters heading to Sweden will now have to change trains at Copenhagen Airport and go through ID checkpoints.
Sweden received more than 150,000 asylum applications in 2015.
An estimated 20,000 commuters daily cross the Oresund bridge, which connects the Swedish cities of Malmo and Lund with the Danish capital, Copenhagen.
Direct journeys from Copenhagen's main railway station to Sweden will no longer be available and the changes are expected to add around 30 minutes to the current 40-minute commute.
In response, Denmark has stepped up border controls with Germany, its southern neighbour.
Danish Prime Minister Lars Loekke Rasmussen said the new Swedish measures could cause serious disruption to traffic flows from Denmark.
Oresund bridge map
Rail operators have reduced the number of trips to Sweden and have warned that there might be significant delays.
Danish Transport Minister Hans Christian Schmidt said the introduction of checks was sad and "extremely annoying". He suggested the Swedish government should foot the bill for the checks, which Danish rail company DSB has estimated at 1m Danish krone (£100,000; €134,000) per day.
Responding to the developments, Martin Schaefer, a spokesman for Germany's foreign ministry told the AFP news agency: "Freedom of movement is an important principle, one of the biggest achievements [in the European Union] in recent years ... Schengen is very important but it is in danger."
Oresund BridgeImage copyrightOresundsbron
Image caption
Denmark and Sweden are joined by the longest road-rail bridge in Europe
A fence has been erected at Kastrup airport, to stop migrants getting into Sweden illegally (file pic)Image copyrightAP
Image caption
A fence has been erected at Kastrup airport, to stop migrants getting into Sweden illegally
Police put up a fence at Hyllie, the first station on the Swedish side (3 Jan)Image copyrightAP
Image caption
Police have also put up a fence at Hyllie, the first station on the Swedish side
Under the new Swedish law, brought in late last year, transport companies will be fined 50,000 Swedish krona (£4,000; €5,400) if travellers to Sweden do not have a valid photo ID.
The Swedish government secured a temporary exemption from the European Union's open-border Schengen agreement, in order to impose the border controls.
Last month Sweden's state-owned train operator SJ announced it would stop services to and from Denmark because it could not carry out identity checks demanded by the new law.
The vast majority of commuters using the Oresund bridge cross from Sweden, so the changes were expected to hit people hardest as they return from work during the evening rush hour.
To comply with the regulations, fencing has been erected around one of the platforms at the railway station at Copenhagen's Kastrup Airport.
Police have also set up fencing at Hyllie, the first station on the Swedish side of the bridge, amid reports of plans for further ID checks there.
Sweden's SJ train company said it would not have time to check people travelling between Copenhagen and Malmo over the Oresund bridge.
And Ronny Fredriksson of security firm Securitas Sweden told Svenska Dagbladet his company had so far refused requests from travel companies to take on the task because "this is about foreign identification cards that we know nothing about."
Infrastructure minister Anna Johansson told Swedish media that the new rules would be changed if there was a dramatic fall in the number of asylum seekers.
A police officer checks the documents a a passenger inside a bus at Lernacken on the Swedish side of the Oresund strait on 12 November 2015.Image copyrightGetty Images
Image caption
Checks have been taking place on passengers arriving by bus in Sweden
One million migrants arrived in Europe by land or sea in 2015, the International Organisation for Migration says.
Along with Germany, Sweden is one of the main destinations for migrants and takes the most per capita of its population.
In 2013 the then government announced it would offer permanent residence to all Syrians but the high number of arrivals last year prompted a rethink.
In contrast, Denmark expects to receive about 20,000 asylum seekers this year.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-35218921

[His Divine Shadow]

In Denmark the Hells Angels are the voice of reason:
http://hells-angels.dk/presseinfo/pressemeddelelse/

A google translate I tried to tune up a little

THEM OR US?. Wednesday January 13, 2016

Regarding the ongoing debate about who the citizens of Nyborg want living in their city.

We have long been accustomed to police, politicians, and not least, the press, trying to poison public opinion about our club. Appropriations, increased powers, vote fishing and not least additional sales of newspapers and other media have been some of its reasons, but they are not essential in this debate here is the fact come to be about "them or us" and we not happy.

However, we are exceedingly grateful that a majority of citizens who participated in the debate has taken us in defense in relation to the police announcement that we have hunted out of Nyborg. In this context we would like to point out; we usually try to look after ourselves and that we have come to the city to commit crime.

Like many other citizens in this country, many of them our members, it has been disturbing that so many refugees and migrants have been coming to the country in such a short time and the Implications of culture clash. BUT having said that, it is not refugees' fault that they are looking to where they can have a safe and better life.

The many well-meaning citizens should instead direct their anger against those guilty of this for Europe unfortunate situation. Politicians in Denmark and other EU countries, the US and NATO's aggressive crackdown in Syria and Libya, the EU's trade barriers, the oil industry's abuse and poisoning of Africa's resources, and not least the global arms industry's relentless quest for new conflicts.

To some politicians, with Trine Bramsen (S) in the lead, panicking the citizens defend ourselves and then persist with all sorts of unsubstantiated claims, known only by the police prejudiced statistics and media penetration of the same, do not wonder, but that she repeatedly brings the so-called gangs in the debate directly tasteless.

Hells Angels Motorcycle Club Denmark

[Grumman]

In Denmark the Hells Angels are the voice of reason:
http://hells-angels.dk/presseinfo/pressemeddelelse/

A google translate I tried to tune up a little

The many well-meaning citizens should instead direct their anger against those guilty of this for Europe unfortunate situation. Politicians in Denmark and other EU countries, the US and NATO's aggressive crackdown in Syria and Libya, the EU's trade barriers, the oil industry's abuse and poisoning of Africa's resources, and not least the global arms industry's relentless quest for new conflicts.

None of those people created this crisis. Nobody made tens or hundreds of thousands of Muslims join a doomsday cult and try to murder and enslave their way to a transcontinental theocratic dictatorship. They are not robots or beasts, they chose to do this.

[His Divine Shadow]

Oh please

[Alyrium Denryle]

In Denmark the Hells Angels are the voice of reason:
http://hells-angels.dk/presseinfo/pressemeddelelse/

A google translate I tried to tune up a little

The many well-meaning citizens should instead direct their anger against those guilty of this for Europe unfortunate situation. Politicians in Denmark and other EU countries, the US and NATO's aggressive crackdown in Syria and Libya, the EU's trade barriers, the oil industry's abuse and poisoning of Africa's resources, and not least the global arms industry's relentless quest for new conflicts.

None of those people created this crisis. Nobody made tens or hundreds of thousands of Muslims join a doomsday cult and try to murder and enslave their way to a transcontinental theocratic dictatorship. They are not robots or beasts, they chose to do this.

1. That has no bearing on the fault of refugees whatsoever.

2. While no one makes anyone do anything (usually), public policy can make people desperate, and desperate people are likely to fall victim to the recruitment tactics of death cults that all operate using tricks of human psychology to snare desperate or psychologically vulnerable people. Anyone can be vulnerable to the tactics used, the only defense is economic and social/psychological stability (disaffected teenagers and youth who move off to university and are under financial stress without friends are more vulnerable to these tactics than a 35 year old married person), or formal training in resistance techniques which...most of these people dont have.

[Purple]

2. While no one makes anyone do anything (usually), public policy can make people desperate, and desperate people are likely to fall victim to the recruitment tactics of death cults that all operate using tricks of human psychology to snare desperate or psychologically vulnerable people. Anyone can be vulnerable to the tactics used, the only defense is economic and social/psychological stability (disaffected teenagers and youth who move off to university and are under financial stress without friends are more vulnerable to these tactics than a 35 year old married person), or formal training in resistance techniques which...most of these people dont have.

Did you just seriously say "ISIS members are not at fault for joining ISIS. They are victims of propaganda. It wasn't really their choice."?

WHAT THE ACTUAL FUCK!?

[Grumman]

None of those people created this crisis. Nobody made tens or hundreds of thousands of Muslims join a doomsday cult and try to murder and enslave their way to a transcontinental theocratic dictatorship. They are not robots or beasts, they chose to do this.

1. That has no bearing on the fault of refugees whatsoever.

That is true. But misplaced blame aimed at the West doesn't make the Hells Angels the voice of reason any more than misplaced blame aimed at law-abiding refugees does.

2. While no one makes anyone do anything (usually), public policy can make people desperate, and desperate people are likely to fall victim to the recruitment tactics of death cults that all operate using tricks of human psychology to snare desperate or psychologically vulnerable people. Anyone can be vulnerable to the tactics used, the only defense is economic and social/psychological stability (disaffected teenagers and youth who move off to university and are under financial stress without friends are more vulnerable to these tactics than a 35 year old married person), or formal training in resistance techniques which...most of these people dont have.

No, "anyone" cannot be vulnerable. It might be a trendy piece of misanthropy to pretend that the only thing stopping other people from taking up rape, slavery and child murder is "one bad day", but it's bullshit. Thinking that doesn't make you the voice of reason, it makes you the Joker.

[Broomstick]

2. While no one makes anyone do anything (usually), public policy can make people desperate, and desperate people are likely to fall victim to the recruitment tactics of death cults that all operate using tricks of human psychology to snare desperate or psychologically vulnerable people. Anyone can be vulnerable to the tactics used, the only defense is economic and social/psychological stability (disaffected teenagers and youth who move off to university and are under financial stress without friends are more vulnerable to these tactics than a 35 year old married person), or formal training in resistance techniques which...most of these people dont have.

Did you just seriously say "ISIS members are not at fault for joining ISIS. They are victims of propaganda. It wasn't really their choice."?

WHAT THE ACTUAL FUCK!?

There are probably some who fall into that category. If you're desperately poor, perhaps starving, people are shooting at you, then yes, you become vulnerable to the propaganda of those who have wealth, food, and offer to protect you.

HOWEVER - that does NOT account for the relatively well-off westerners who willingly join ISIS and travel to another continent to a war zone. That's not true desperation.

There isn't a simple answer, there's isn't a single cause, for the rise of something like ISIS. It's multifactorial and that annoys the people who want a simple answer.

[jwl]

In Denmark the Hells Angels are the voice of reason:
http://hells-angels.dk/presseinfo/pressemeddelelse/

A google translate I tried to tune up a little

The many well-meaning citizens should instead direct their anger against those guilty of this for Europe unfortunate situation. Politicians in Denmark and other EU countries, the US and NATO's aggressive crackdown in Syria and Libya, the EU's trade barriers, the oil industry's abuse and poisoning of Africa's resources, and not least the global arms industry's relentless quest for new conflicts.

None of those people created this crisis. Nobody made tens or hundreds of thousands of Muslims join a doomsday cult and try to murder and enslave their way to a transcontinental theocratic dictatorship. They are not robots or beasts, they chose to do this.

The doomsday cult doesn't have much do do with the bulk of the Syrian refugees, most are running from Assad. Depending on who you ask, the second biggest source of refugees in Europe is one of Iraq, Afghanistan, Eritrea, Kosovo, or Russia, and in only one of those is it due to ISIS.

[Purple]

There are probably some who fall into that category. If you're desperately poor, perhaps starving, people are shooting at you, then yes, you become vulnerable to the propaganda of those who have wealth, food, and offer to protect you.

So what? It's still that persons choice to join a genocidal barbaric rape murder cult. The fact that he is somehow "vulnerable" in no way absolves him of any responsibility at all.

[ray245]

Fucking hell.

How about the way the US does it? The money for transportation to the country and initial resettlement is a combination of grants and LOANS. The refugees can pay back the loans out of either personal funds (if they have any) or a payment plan after they are employed. A third party can also cover the cost if that third party chooses to do so. Seems to work pretty good on this side of the pond. Yes, sometimes the loan doesn't get repaid, but more often than not it does.

Of course, that would also require allowing refugees to work. In the US, refugees are granted immediate authorization to work in the country. How about Denmark? Because if a country doesn't allow refugees to work legally and also strips them of valuables when they enter it's nothing more than robbing the desperate. "Your money or your life."

This would massively help in ensuring people don't think refugees are running to Europe to leech money off the welfare state.

So what? It's still that persons choice to join a genocidal barbaric rape murder cult. The fact that he is somehow "vulnerable" in no way absolves him of any responsibility at all.

I cannot agree with this enough. Treating the Syrians or Iraqis as entirely blameless is just taking any sense of responsibility off them. The current mess in Syria is the responsibility of everyone, Syrians, Iraqis, Europe and America alike. And people are wondering why is there the perception that people, especially refugees are being "protected" from criticism.

[Alyrium Denryle]

2. While no one makes anyone do anything (usually), public policy can make people desperate, and desperate people are likely to fall victim to the recruitment tactics of death cults that all operate using tricks of human psychology to snare desperate or psychologically vulnerable people. Anyone can be vulnerable to the tactics used, the only defense is economic and social/psychological stability (disaffected teenagers and youth who move off to university and are under financial stress without friends are more vulnerable to these tactics than a 35 year old married person), or formal training in resistance techniques which...most of these people dont have.

Did you just seriously say "ISIS members are not at fault for joining ISIS. They are victims of propaganda. It wasn't really their choice."?

WHAT THE ACTUAL FUCK!?

All I am doing is being consistent. When some western teenager joins a cult, we consider them victims and send in deprogrammers to get them out.

We cannot do that with ISIS, because it is ISIS; the things they do while members of ISIS are not excusable, and the circumstances are such that we dont have much choice but to kill them for the good of everyone. That does not mean we abandon our knowledge of makes someone vulnerable to a cult (or for that matter an abusive boyfriend. Many of the same psychological tricks are used) in a sea of knee-jerk fundamental attribution error.

All that does is make the problem worse by crippling our ability to reduce ISIS's recruitment.