Ep7 Reviews (Spoilers)

[AndroAsc]

If you make up your own system of prioritizing canon materials, you don't get to then yell at other people for "ignoring history". You made a shit argument that's easily disproven with multiple examples, and your argument is also based on assumptions that have no basis in any of the movies (lightsabre blades having no mass/inertia is a hypothesis based on precisely zero evidence from any of the movies or TV shows).

What are you fucking 12? I did not make up my order of canon, it was established way before the PT ever came out, and it was the way things used to be, before Lucas decided to simplify the canon for FUCKTARDS like you, and Disney decide to screw the EU and come up with something worse than the EU. The order of canon is so fucking old that I can even remember where it came from. I have this distinct impression that it was setup here by one of these tech analysis community, possibly way before Lucas ever defined clearly what the order of canon was (maybe one of the old timers can correct my memory).

Lightsaber blades having no mass/inertia has been discussed like decades before on this board and other technical sites you fucking RETARD. Again, are you born yesterday? If not, go read up on some real history before commenting.

It is fucking imbeciles like you that simply eat up whatever crap that Lucas and Disney spews out without analyzing if it is internally consistent with the last 6 movies and what we know of the physics of the SW verse that we are in this situation today.

[AndroAsc]

Makes you now wonder if this is ANH for the next generation, why did they not cut to a scene to luke in exile and show him in pain, like a thousand voices cried out to him (or something, I am rusty with Obi-wan's line when Alderaan blew up).

good part of the movie there's a mystery as to what happend to luke and if he's still alive, while we gets hints even at the end we still don't got the full picture.

to show when the planets blow up would reveal that he's alive and well too soon.

after all this movie isn't a shot for shot remake but rather takes inspiration from the old trilogy.

For fuck sake anyone going in watching the movie knows that Luke is in there, even if you are spoiler free (like me).

This is not a remake for ANH really? Let's see

1) Young force-sensitive farm boy on a desert planet vs Young force-sensitive scavenger girl on a desert planet. Oh, both are good at piloting starships and can tinker with stuff as well.

2) Bad Stormtroopers massacring the Beru farm because they were associated with the droids (important stuff) vs Bad Stormtroopers massacring the village settlement in the beginning because the old guy had the important data.

3) Death Star plans (important data) on R2-D2 vs Location of Luke Skywalker (important data) on BB-8.

4) Hunt for the droid R2-D2 by the bad guys vs Hunt for the droid BB-8 by the bad guys.

5) Death Star blows up Alderaan vs Starkiller Base blows up I can't remember what the planet name is.

6) Key character Obi-Wan dies vs Key character Han Solo dies. Also at the hand of the main red lightsaber villian. Guess the only difference is that Han Solo did not become one with the force, but we know that is technically impossible anyway.

7) Big Death Star superweapon with a weak spot vs Big Starkiller Base with a weak area.

Starfighter attack on Death Star with trenches and guns vs Starfighter attack on Starkiller Base with trenches and guns.

9) Big lightsaber villian aka Vader and his imperial moff counterpart Tarkin vs Trying-to-be-big-lightsaber-villian Kylo Ren and the other General dude who is obviously Tarkin. Even his overconfidence in his troops are reminiscent of Tarkin LOL.

10) Mos Eisely Catina scene vs the Cantina scene in TFA.

11) Rebel Base in Yavin IV vs Resistance Base in whatever they are. Fucking layout is also so similar, mainly starfighters, and even the command center, right down to the build up and tension is Yavin IV clone!

So do you think TFA is just inspired by ANH? Dude, it's fucking at least 66% ANH, with the other 33% being TESB and ROTJ clones, specifically scenes like:

a) Kylo/Ben being Han's son <-> Vader/Luke relationship. Which btw, I am going to bitch that Kylo reveled being Han's son WAS TERRIBLE. They should have kept it secret until the last possible moment, i.e like TESB.

b) Han and his small rebel strike force inflitrating base to turn off the shields <-> Han/Luke strike force to blow up DS2 shields.

Hey, I have no problem with TFA being a ANH clone with some adaptations from TESB/ROTJ, but if you are going to do it that way, do it right. If I can think of scenes that should be there that are not, clearly those scriptwriters are not doing their job.

[Ziggy Stardust]

Look, there were a lot of great things about this movie. Honestly, it was exactly the same as JJ's Star Trek movies: enjoyable action flicks with good acting and clever dialogue, but utterly lacking any semblance of a logical or consistent plot structure.

Planets die willy-nilly and meaninglessly, there's no sense of traveling any distance (hyperdrive seems to have become a teleporter)

The hyperdrive didn't become a teleporter, it's just that the movie made it incredibly clear that all of the events of the film took place within the same damned star system. Inexplicably, the First Order's superweapon is in the same star system as Hosni-totally-not-Coruscant-you-guyz Prime, which is in the same system as the four or five other unnamed worlds that were also destroyed, which were all in the same star system as the random ass planet that Han went to to find transport for the droid.

And, yes, nobody in the movie cared about the destruction of the planet. So I don't either.

No you're not, but Han mentioned something special about the shield...something about phasing. I don't recall exactly what he said but I interpreted that to mean there was something special about this shield that set it apart from other forms of planetary shields.

If this was the case it was an extraordinarily lazy set-up. They definitely didn't focus on this justification at all and just threw a word in because they couldn't be arsed to come up with any coherent or logical reason for what was going on (just like all of the other stupid shit that happened in the movie). I mean, it wouldn't have been that hard to add a line or two of extra dialogue to explain why this is a one-time-only trick, as opposed to basically just going, "Blah blah phasing, fuck you, don't question it."

Was there any indication as to why R2 suddenly reactivated in the ending? It seemed like a Dues Ex Machina. Almost literally.

Like due to Rey's presence. It was said earlier in the film that he was going to stay deactive until Luke came back. Instead he reactivated when Rey showed up. I think they are hinting towards her being Luke's daughter.

Speaking of R2, though, just another in the long line of incredibly stupid and not-at-all-thought-out elements of this plot: R2 had the rest of the map stored in his memory banks, but they couldn't access them because he was in fucking "low power mode"? He's a fucking droid! The Star Wars galaxy seriously has no means of retrieving data out of a droid in "low power mode"?

true I suppose but there's always the balance to keep in the story, after all those that obsess over the details like where the capital ships are make a very small group of people and most people probably won't even notice it.

While that's true, it is less excusable when the story was an unbalanced and teetering mess. It would be one thing to ignore those details if the plot was well-constructed and balanced in other respects, but it was all just a series of incoherent set-ups for set-piece action sequences. It felt more like a Star Wars amusement park ride than a movie in that respect. It was all, "Hey, go look over here, now, at this pretty thing, don't question how any of this fits together."

[Ziggy Stardust]

So do you think TFA is just inspired by ANH? Dude, it's fucking at least 66% ANH, with the other 33% being TESB and ROTJ clones

<snip>

Hey, I have no problem with TFA being a ANH clone with some adaptations from TESB/ROTJ, but if you are going to do it that way, do it right. If I can think of scenes that should be there that are not, clearly those scriptwriters are not doing their job.

This. The only part of your post I disagree with is that I don't think there WERE any scriptwriters at all, because I don't think there was any real forethought given to the plot in any way, shape, or form.

It was just a high budget version of the half-baked fan sequel a 12-year-old would write after seeing the original trilogy for the first time. I mean, I'm honestly not sure this movie had an original thought in it. It's one thing to make homages to the original trilogy or to mirror the general plot structure, it's another to have literally no ideas of your own and just haphazardly try to remake ANH with a few extra scenes of tension-less combat shoe-horned in to the middle.

[Welf]

I still like my pet theory. Luke is training a bunch of padawans. A woman shows up and somehow her and Luke hook you. Maybe she was sent by Snoke, maybe just a random. Ben Solo sees the truth that even the great Skywalker can give in to his passions. Peace is a lie, there is only passion. He decides that his grandfather had the right idea, nudged along by Snoke and falls to the dark side. He slaughters the rest of the padawans and Luke disappears. Meanwhile Rey's mother finds out she's pregnant and realises the child is going to be a threat/hunted. She tries to go back to Luke because who better to protect her? But Luke is gone. The mother is on the run for some time (hiding out on a backwater desert planet) until she feels the First Order closing in on her. She abandons her child to lead the FO away, intending to return. Unfortunately she never does.

I don't think that is what happened. Kylo mentions "pain" that he wants to get rid of. I think he screwed up something big and feels guilty for it. Wasn't he supposed to have a sister? One that is never mentioned in the movie (and at first I thought Rey was his sister). I speculate Kylo somehow killed her and then ran away. And going on killing spree because your teacher has a girlfriend is a bit of a weak character motivation.

Kylo Ren is actually much more fascinating than Gandalf or ATG make him out to be. Far from being Vader, his character is being created around the fact that he truly desires to *be* Vader. He felt betrayed by his family and was further seduced by Snoak, but once he was on the path to becoming a Sith Lord, he looked towards a new idol -- and one which happened to be on the family tree. To assume that he is a bad character because he isn't a great as Vader was in ANH is stupid, BECAUSE HE ISN'T THERE YET. Kylo Ren will become far more interesting than he already is in Episode VIII, as he finishing his training with Snoak and due to his wounds, is able to physically embrace his idol, as well as in spirit, by donning a life-preservation suit.

I was confused by Kylo too. He starts really, really impressive, but then is rather pathetic at the end in the fight with Rey and Finn. But in hindsight, there is a clear theme, he is the most dangerous when he acts calm like a Sith, and becomes weaker when he is emotionally confused. Maybe Han reminded him of his good side, and he couldn't access the dark side as effective in the battle.
If they follow the arc of the OT, the next movie will be the dark one where evil triumphs. In this case it could mean Kylo gets to the power level of Darth Vader. I feel like they try to do something new here, by combining the character arcs of both the OT and the prequels, with both the evil and the good becoming more powerful. If so, the minimalism of this movie gives room for escalation in later movies. That was a strength of the OT, while the prequels started with large scale war and continued with large scale war.
Either way, the movie was good, not great, but wants me to see more and talk about it. So mission accomplished. And maybe in a few years with enough nostalgia it will be as great as the OT.

[Gaidin]

Speaking of weapon systems.....while I want to complain about "Sigh...yet ANOTHER Death Star movie plot?"......it makes sense. Death Stars are kinda like the nuclear weapons of Star Wars. They built a small one (fission bombs), then a bigger one (fission-induced fusion bombs), and now a long-ranged one (nuke-tipped ICBMs). Rogue States are constantly trying to gain nuclear tech, often leading to strike fighters from their antagonists paying them a visit. Sound familiar? With a tech that is proven to upset the balance of power so thoroughly, why would you NOT keep trying to employ it? The only major disappointment is that the First Order's idiot engineers took a step backwards in terms of the survivability of their design. And how the hell did the Resistance pinpoint a weak spot so quickly? Yes, Finn was stationed on Starkiller Base but he was the damn JANITOR (apparently), and he didn't bring a full technical readout of the station with him.

Multiple bombing runs by X-Wings only did nothing. It was only when bombs set inside by unforeseen strike force blew a hole in it and an X-Wing was able to fly in and finish the job strike force wasn't even able to finish on its own that the planet imploded. Step backwards in terms of survivability of their design what?

[Terralthra]

What makes a lightsabre so different from any other melee weapon? Please use canon sources.

Besides the mass less plasma blade that cuts/burns through durasteel

I said canon sources, not your imagination.

If you make up your own system of prioritizing canon materials, you don't get to then yell at other people for "ignoring history". You made a shit argument that's easily disproven with multiple examples, and your argument is also based on assumptions that have no basis in any of the movies (lightsabre blades having no mass/inertia is a hypothesis based on precisely zero evidence from any of the movies or TV shows).

What are you fucking 12? I did not make up my order of canon, it was established way before the PT ever came out, and it was the way things used to be, before Lucas decided to simplify the canon for FUCKTARDS like you, and Disney decide to screw the EU and come up with something worse than the EU. The order of canon is so fucking old that I can even remember where it came from. I have this distinct impression that it was setup here by one of these tech analysis community, possibly way before Lucas ever defined clearly what the order of canon was (maybe one of the old timers can correct my memory).

The order of canon established by LFL was movies and Lucas-involved TV shows above all, novelizations of the movies and TV shows after that if they don't contradict the above, and EU novelizations after that. The order of canon established now says movies, TV shows, and a select few newer novelizations. Neither of them says "I get to handwave counterexamples from TV shows if I feel there is wank involved".

Lightsaber blades having no mass/inertia has been discussed like decades before on this board and other technical sites you fucking RETARD. Again, are you born yesterday? If not, go read up on some real history before commenting.

Please provide a canon source for lightsabre blades having no mass or inertia. Looking at all six movies, it sure looks as if the blades affect the moment of inertia based on how they're wielded, and when Darth Vader throws his in Episode VI, it spins around a center of mass partway down the blade, indicating that the blade *must* have inertia.

It is fucking imbeciles like you that simply eat up whatever crap that Lucas and Disney spews out without analyzing if it is internally consistent with the last 6 movies and what we know of the physics of the SW verse that we are in this situation today.

Whining about how ignorant I am when you're literally ignoring anything from the canon you don't like? I'm not impressed. Save your insults for someone who cares; my focus is on evidence, and you've provided exactly none.

[Channel72]

I'm surprised there are so many people who didn't like Kylo Ren as a villain... but I guess those are the same people who probably thought General Grievous needed MORE ARMS and MORE LIGHTSABERS !!.

Kylo Ren is seriously one of the best villains I've seen in a Star Wars movie, or any popcorn-flick... literally, ever. The guy struggles with major insecurity and weakness, is tempted by feelings of sentimentality and compassion to reject the Dark Side... but ultimately decides he has to sever all connections to his former, weak pathetic self, by murdering his father. That's some Shakespearean shit here, and you idiots are just like "meh... he wasn't really good with a lightsaber..."

[LadyTevar]

That just begs the question of why now? Did he lose his DL-44? Were there no E-11s (or whatever the new version is) lying about? And why is he so impressed with it? Surely even if he's never fired it he's seen it fired before.

Because Chewie Was Shot! That's the reason

Chewie was shot, Han grabbed the weapon cause it was handy, and fired it. Did you not see that scene too?

[Noble713]

Multiple bombing runs by X-Wings only did nothing. It was only when bombs set inside by unforeseen strike force blew a hole in it and an X-Wing was able to fly in and finish the job strike force wasn't even able to finish on its own that the planet imploded. Step backwards in terms of survivability of their design what?

If they had doubled the strike package with, say, 30 Y-Wings or B-Wings, I would argue they would possess sufficient firepower to destroy the thermal oscillator without internal sabotage.

In comparison, the DS2 supposedly had no weak points and was only destroyed because it was partially complete.

So the First Order built a star-sucking planet which, in its fully operational state, is easier to destroy than the Galactic Empire's Artificial Planet-Busting Moon, V2.0.

[Patroklos]

What makes a lightsabre so different from any other melee weapon? Please use canon sources.

Besides the mass less plasma blade that cuts/burns through durasteel

I said canon sources, not your imagination.

What material did you see in the movie that a lightsabre failed to cut through? You are grasping at straws and you know it.

[Terralthra]

Besides the mass less plasma blade that cuts/burns through durasteel

I said canon sources, not your imagination.

What material did you see in the movie that a lightsabre failed to cut through? You are grasping at straws and you know it.

I mean your statements that a lightsabre blade is massless or made of plasma (which are contradictory, by the way). Neither of those is attested in canon, and I provided evidence that at least one of them is untrue from canon.

[Patroklos]

I see regrading the plasma and mass, but that is irrelevant to my point that a lightsabre /= sword / = every other melee weapon is interchangeable, and thats true even if we are talking about two experts, which we are not. JJ fucked this up, you are just going to have to deal with that. If it doesn't bother you fine, it still happened.

---

So Starkillerbase = Death Star x20 (By JJmath anyway). Starkiller base requires Death Star energy x1,000,000,000+ to kill target(s) x5 of a Death Star blast. Who engineered this thing?

[Lord Revan]

Multiple bombing runs by X-Wings only did nothing. It was only when bombs set inside by unforeseen strike force blew a hole in it and an X-Wing was able to fly in and finish the job strike force wasn't even able to finish on its own that the planet imploded. Step backwards in terms of survivability of their design what?

If they had doubled the strike package with, say, 30 Y-Wings or B-Wings, I would argue they would possess sufficient firepower to destroy the thermal oscillator without internal sabotage.

In comparison, the DS2 supposedly had no weak points and was only destroyed because it was partially complete.

So the First Order built a star-sucking planet which, in its fully operational state, is easier to destroy than the Galactic Empire's Artificial Planet-Busting Moon, V2.0.

what are you basing the 30 Y-Wings would have destroyed the facility?

We saw plenty of explotions but no real damage I could see until Han's team blew up the facility from the inside (with the facility itself possibly contributing to the damage as well) and that's ignoring that most military facilities are built in a way that makes then considerbly more durable against external attacks then internal ones.

[Lord Revan]

I see regrading the plasma and mass, but that is irrelevant to my point that a lightsabre /= sword / = every other melee weapon is interchangeable, and thats true even if we are talking about two experts, which we are not. JJ fucked this up, you are just going to have to deal with that. If it doesn't bother you fine, it still happened.

---

So Starkillerbase = Death Star x20 (By JJmath anyway). Starkiller base requires Death Star energy x1,000,000,000+ to kill target(s) x5 of a Death Star blast. Who engineered this thing?

someone with massive ego issues

after all these are the same people who try to rebuild the empire only with none of the good qualities present, rationality isn't high on their priority list.

[Patroklos]

what are you basing the 30 Y-Wings would have destroyed the facility?

We saw plenty of explotions but no real damage I could see until Han's team blew up the facility from the inside (with the facility itself possibly contributing to the damage as well) and that's ignoring that most military facilities are built in a way that makes then considerbly more durable against external attacks then internal ones.

The X-wing pilots say in dialogue they need a few more runs to do it, they have just lost too many ships by that point and the weapon was too close to firing to pull it off. At no point do we have an Ackbar retreat moment signalling they experts on scene think it is impossible to pull off. They could do it, they just didn't have time.

someone with massive ego issues

after all these are the same people who try to rebuild the empire only with none of the good qualities present, rationality isn't high on their priority list.

Engineers are engineers. They can gold plate at times but by those numbers? Do Hex and Snooki look like the type who would forgo wielding all that wasted destructive power? Or just the same destuctive power at half the cost (more like .00000001% of the cost)? Unfortunately thats the only conclusion in universe I can come up with too. Is that satisfying to you? It sure as hell isn't to me.

[LadyTevar]

Patroklos, I'm gonna start hitting you for the double posts. *shakes cane at him*
What I want you to do on your next post is WAIT A WHOLE MINUTE before you click "Submit" a second time.

[LadyTevar]

Wait a minute. The Starkiller's beam weapon is a hyperspace weapon, right? That could explain why the shield can't be allowed to block anything traveling at lightspeed. It would block their own weapon.

that kind of makes sense.

That makes a whole lot of sense!

[Lord Revan]

someone with massive ego issues

after all these are the same people who try to rebuild the empire only with none of the good qualities present, rationality isn't high on their priority list.

Engineers are engineers. They can gold plate at times but by those numbers? Do Hex and Snooki look like the type who would forgo wielding all that wasted destructive power? Or just the same destuctive power at half the cost (more like .00000001% of the cost)? Unfortunately thats the only conclusion in universe I can come up with too. Is that satisfying to you? It sure as hell isn't to me.

well engineers are engineers, no shit Sherlock. However if a person who has the power to excute you on a whim tells you turn a planet into a giant penile compensator gun you do it and screw efficiency.

You got stop thinking about the First Order as Empire 2.0, they're a collection of fanatics best decribed as the Empire with all the good parts removed, so all the pettiness, cruelty, corruption and megalomania is there but none of effiency or calculating nature of the Empire.

Look at Kylo Ren, he looks cool when things go his way but when things aren't going his way he quickly looses temper in a highly visible way.

[Patroklos]

Did any of you see a hyperspace weapon? I didn't see any hyperspace weapon.

Sorry Revan. Even in your scenario harvesting the energy of a star in order to use almost none of it still makes no sense. Do you think that was somehow easier than building another Death Star? Or five Death Stars? Or five Death Star reactors on a planet?

And no there is no reason to assume the Fist Order is the engineering eschewing Luddites you suggest. There is nothing in the movie that suggest that. If anything they are displayed as even more advanced and technology savy.

[Nephtys]

You could also consider that you know, building a giant base on a small planetoid might be a lot easier than a fully contained, self-sufficient battle station in space capable of defeating a galaxy-sized navy. It also could be a portion of the planet (that big trench with the machinery), as most of it seems largely undeveloped.

A serious engineering task, but for the benefits of 'more than death-star firepower' while in a remotely defensible location. The only vulnerability really was the Falcon's hyperspace trick, which is in universe so reckless that it wasn't even considered an option. Plus insider knowledge from both Finn, and using Phasma.

In general, such a cornercase vulnerability is probably worth the ability to destroy a half dozen of your opposing government's major population, government and military centers every few hours.

[Lord Revan]

I didn't say they're luddities so if I gave that impression I apologize what I meant is that spectacle of it is more important then the effiency.


Kind of like Nazi Germany spent resources building a massive cannon battery at north coast of France even though the resources used would have been better used building more V-1 or V-2 Rockets which essentially did the same job only better or spending resources designing more and more impractical tanks rather using those resources to Panther designs more effiencient.

Is a Death Star more efficient use of resources sure, but you saw the reaction the resistance members had so the Starkiller base.

EDIT:btw I'm not trying to invoke Godwin's law here, it's just that Hitler provides the best examples of megalomanical regime screwing over their own war effort by going for spectacle over effiency.

[Sgt_Artyom]

I'm curious as to the true size of the First Order though, if they call pull off an engineering feat of this scale? If they can convert an entire planet into a super weapon in less that 30 years when it took 19 years to construct the Death Star which is smaller by a good deal.

Would this constitute a sizable loss to them? Can they recover? Only time will tell I guess.

[Pelranius]

Snoke does bear more than a passing physical resemblance to Gollum, though Serkis doesn't sound very much like Smeagol this time.

Surprised that Hux got away.

I guess blowing up Hosnian Prime would exceed the Alderannian death toll?

Makes you now wonder if this is ANH for the next generation, why did they not cut to a scene to luke in exile and show him in pain, like a thousand voices cried out to him (or something, I am rusty with Obi-wan's line when Alderaan blew up).

I wonder why Leia and Rey didn't feel Hosnian Prime blowing up.

So is the First Order the evolution of the Empire that signed the peace treaty after the Battle of Jakku, or a splinter there of (I got the impression it's the later, but I haven't read the supplementary materials).

[Lord Revan]

I wonder why Leia and Rey didn't feel Hosnian Prime blowing up.

maybe they weren't trained enough, Luke didn't feel Alderaan getting destroyed after all.