Pre-industrial Fantasy STGOD OOC/Rules Thread:

[madd0ct0r]

Does anyone have any specific feedback on my V001 order of battle? it' comes to a shade under 150,000 but there's only so many 300kg carnivores you can fit into an area

[The Romulan Republic]

To take an example of what I'm talking about with regard to artifacts, I had this idea for an artifact that drains the life out of units in a particular area, then uses that energy for a single concentrated strike. Its a one-off, not part of standard gear, but not owned by any particular individual. It would have a point value, probably a high one too.

[madd0ct0r]

Sounds like a gunpowder mine bomb in reverse order

[The Romulan Republic]

Sort of, except its reusable and easily portable.

More like a one of a kind piece of portable artillery that delivers the double punch of first draining the life from a bunch of enemies and then using that to blow up something else. Hence the value.

I doubt many would want to use it though. Pretty dark magic.

[Aasharu]

So I've been working on my army design, and this is what I've gotten so far:

250000 Zombies – 50000 points (1 point per five zombies)
200000 Skeletons – 50000 points (1 point per four skeletons)
100 Ghoul Assassin Squads – 40000 points (400 points per squad, 20 ghouls to a squad)
200 Vampire Infiltrators – 16000 points (80 points per vampire)
100 Lich Battlemages – 10000 points (100 points per lich)
14 Vampire Baron – 14000 (1000 points per Baron)
23 Archliches – 27600 (1200 points per Archlich)
12 Deathknight Generals – 18000 (1500 points per Deathknight)
Lu Zhi the Everqueen – 20000 point
Tarnish Enchantments – 60000 points
298800 points total

The skeletons and zombies are mindless, and thus need an intelligent undead nearby to command them: any intelligent undead can command up to their point cost in points of skeletons and zombies (A single vampire infiltrator, at 80 points, could control 320 skeletons or 400 zombies)

The general point of this army is basically to combine a huge hoard of weak troops to tarpit up the enemy, combined with a few really powerful special characters. The weakness of such an army, of course, is that if you can take out the special characters, the tarpit hoard falls apart.

This is just a quick check in, I'll hopefully get a more through post up later today. Opinions on my basic framework so far?

[Dark Hellion]

So, here is a quick rundown of my initial thoughts for my faction. I'll post a more full OoB and more background detail later tonight.

The Concordance of the Nine
Location: Denali National park

The Concordance of the Nine is a race (the race, they would insist) of True Dragons descended from ancient Dragon kingdoms that existed in time immemorial. These dragon kindgoms fell to a great cataclysm brought about by the head dragon prophet in a bit to save both dragon and the following civilized life from an even greater calamity. Having fallen, the dragons began to slide into a long period of decline and so created a group of immortal "perfect dragons" who embodied all the power and wisdom of the dragon race and could slowly lead both dragons and the lesser races onto the proper path to avoid the apocalypse and find paradise. However, each of these 9 dragons views the fragmented bits of the prophecy they recieve slightly differently and thus each is tenative to make any move without consulting the others and even after consultation the moves the Concordance make are always the subtlest nudge to get history moving in the right direction.

The idea of the faction is that it has no standing army to speak of, the race of dragons having declined into what would be considered high-magic, stone age people living in Denali natural park. Of course, if frightened and pressed into a combat even a fallen dragon is a frightening opponent. However, the 9 are incredibly powerful beings, worthy of the title of "perfect" dragons but each is so worried about what any application of their power could do to the prophecy that their actions are always limited and precise.

Oh, and random interesting aside, I started thinking about this a decent while ago thinking, "dragons in Denali would be kinda cool. Strange watchers from the highest peak giving cryptic advance and doing seemingly random things with great purpose." The Bastians of panzerkatshark being placed in Alaska with a frost dragon in the background was a kinda cool coincidence I think I would like to work on a bit more too.

[Crazedwraith]

A rough OoB for the Mining Kingdom. Where we quickly find out I have no idea what I'm doing. I feel I'm probably underpaying for ships and field guns? And I've probably calculate the points wrong too. Fun!

Standing Military

Town Guard: 600 settlements, 150 town/mine guards per settlement and its surroundings. 120 points of strength a town. 0.8 points a guard, equipped with one older model crossbow and one truncheon a man. Total strength: 72,000 points)

Forest Rangers: Two points for a crossbowman and his horse/riding goat. Long range patrols operate in groups of three, short range ones in singletons. 500 long range patrols plus 1,000 short range patrols. Total strength: 5,000 points. (Running total 77,000)

River patrol: 30 River skiffs, armed with 1 x four pounder chase gun + 6 x half-pound swivel guns. 8 x Oars + sail. Crew of 25, Point value 50. (Strength of crew, doubled by ship and guns) + 500 customs support staff. Total strength: 2,000. (Running total: 79,000)


The Dukes: Currently a cadre 200 strong. To be appointed a Duke, a man or goblin must have first have extensive proof of their prowess as an individual combatant and then as a group Commander in Warband as well as an income sufficient to enable them to raise and equip a Warband. (This may be waived and paid, partially or completely, from the Royal or Council purses in times of emergency)

I’m giving each Duke a value of 12 points. They are excellent personal combatants equipped with the best armour and weapons money can buy. Suggest as spring-gun pistols, bows and nearly-musketproof mithril armour. For a value of six points. Plus a battle trained mount and 2 remounts for the other six points. Duke’s value: 2,400

Each Duke have a retinue and staff of about 25 mounted individuals. 50 points a Duke, for additional 10,00 points.

Total Strength: 12,400. (Running total: 91,400)


Example Warbands

Mounted Band.

Vanguard;- 500 x Lancers on wardogs. (2.5 Rider less than one as he no ranged weapon, Wardogs speed, natural weapons and aggressive is more than 1 point) (1,250 points)

Main Body:- 1,000 horse/Ram mounted lancers. (1.8 points each) 2,000 Horse/ram mounted crossbow men. (2 points each) (5,800 points)

Left/Right wing:- 500 Horse/Ram Mounted Bowman each. (2,000 points total)

Reserve: Duke & Retinue. (points excluded here) 500 heavy mounted troops. (better equipped. 3 points each. ) (1,500)

Warband Total: 10,550 points need to create. Effective strength with General 10,612

Infantry Band

VanGuard:- 1,000 crossbowman, skirmirshers etc. (1000 points. )

Main:- 2,000 glaive-wielding infantrymen (0.9 value). 3,000 crossbowmen. (4,800 points)

10 repeating Balista. (crew of four, 20 points) 5 spear volley guns. (crew of 2, 15 points. Really slow to reload. Likely one shot.) (275 points)

Wings: 500 Horse/Ram Mounted Bowman each. (2,000 points total)

Reserve: Reserve: Duke & Retinue. (points excluded here) 500 heavy mounted troops. (better equipped. 3 points each. ) (1,500)

Warband Total: 9,575 points need to create. Effective strength with General : 9,637.


Modernist Band.

As with Infantry except exchanging the ballista and volley guns for twelve imported 12 pounder Field guns. 50 points a piece.

Warband total: 9,900 creation. Effective strength With General: 9,962.

--

Note, with these strengths, I’ve 200 Dukes vying for a possible Twenty Warbands, so only the most competent (or most popular with the King) will get a chance to go in the field, and any failure is likely to result in dismissal and replacement at the earliest juncture.

[Simon_Jester]

D_H, I'd worry about you coordinating with Beo who also has dragons figuring prominently in his national landscape, but you're on opposite ends of the continent and for all we know your dragons and his are entirely different species.

Crazed, 50 points per gun is rather high compared to other people's artillery. Do your people do anything special with their cannons, that would make them unusually dangerous, or would you be content to take more guns per formation so that the individual point cost drops off somewhat? Your mechanical artillery weapons present similar difficulties.

With six thousand men per warband, Napoleonic precedent would reasonably justify you having thirty or forty artillery pieces per warband as well.

Simon:

Ok, I'll cut speeds down to 15 max for the frigates and sloops and 12 max for the liners. I've upped Frigates to 600 points as you suggested. As for my Army Artillery, I've said that of the 5 five-gun Batteries in a Regiment, two are "field" guns of 36pdr size, whilst three are "light" guns of 18 pdr size.

Good, batteries keep uniform gun caliber, that's good. Different calibers will tend to be used differently on the field.

Nice thing is, with how heavily gunned my sloops are they can probably reliably take on and engage enemy Frigates on even terms, so I basically have 173 Heavy and Light Frigates to play with

It depends heavily on the enemy frigate. Also on important factors like volume of fire and the physical durability of the ship; weight of metal isn't everything.

EDIT: Yes I know I'm over-budget slightly, but it's only 1.6%

I'm sure you can shave it as necessary.

[The Romulan Republic]

So I've been working on my army design, and this is what I've gotten so far:

250000 Zombies – 50000 points (1 point per five zombies)
200000 Skeletons – 50000 points (1 point per four skeletons)
100 Ghoul Assassin Squads – 40000 points (400 points per squad, 20 ghouls to a squad)
200 Vampire Infiltrators – 16000 points (80 points per vampire)
100 Lich Battlemages – 10000 points (100 points per lich)
14 Vampire Baron – 14000 (1000 points per Baron)
23 Archliches – 27600 (1200 points per Archlich)
12 Deathknight Generals – 18000 (1500 points per Deathknight)
Lu Zhi the Everqueen – 20000 point
Tarnish Enchantments – 60000 points
298800 points total

The skeletons and zombies are mindless, and thus need an intelligent undead nearby to command them: any intelligent undead can command up to their point cost in points of skeletons and zombies (A single vampire infiltrator, at 80 points, could control 320 skeletons or 400 zombies)

The general point of this army is basically to combine a huge hoard of weak troops to tarpit up the enemy, combined with a few really powerful special characters. The weakness of such an army, of course, is that if you can take out the special characters, the tarpit hoard falls apart.

This is just a quick check in, I'll hopefully get a more through post up later today. Opinions on my basic framework so far?

Looks pretty good to me.

Edit: Although I see my elves trying to snipe your leader units, give the nature of your army. Don't know how successful that would be, but it would likely be a favoured tactic for a faction that relies heavily on ranged units and skirmishers.

[Simon_Jester]

This is not complete yet but it at least gives you a picture of what KIND of units I have.

Note that I have literally no formed combat units with fighting strength higher than 2 points per man, and no warships of point value in excess of 200-300 points.

GENERAL NOTE:
All troop types, formations, and order of battle listings below exclude a variety of noncombatants. Noncombatant support personnel include but are not limited to blacksmiths, farriers, armorers, quartermasters and sutlers, drummer boys, regimental bakers, aides to field-grade and general officers, couriers, surgeons, and perhaps most importantly, chaplains.

While support personnel contribute directly or indirectly to the tactical and strategic success of Ohioan field formations by ensuring that the soldiers are equipped, fed, informed, ordered about, and protected from evil magic, they do not themselves carry arms. Therefore they are not deemed to contribute to the point value of said field formations, and any contributions they make to the formation's fighting strength are "averaged out" over the soldiery of the formation.

In general their lives may be at varying degrees of risk in combat, but for varying reasons it is not practical to 'cheaply' defeat an Ohioan field formation by targeting its noncombatants. Obvious exceptions may be made in cases where the writing is compelling, and will be assessed on a case by case basis.

Troop Types

Light Infantry
(1.25 pts. per man, formed into battalions with de facto strength of 400 men)

Light infantry formations consist entirely of musketeers with the standard Ohioan bayonet-tipped flintlock musket, although attachments of grenadiers are not uncommon. They are often trained for warfare in built-up country or rough terrain. Despite this training and high standards of regimental readiness and preparation, they often seem not to stand on the open field as effectively or resiliently as the older, more traditional tercios. Despite this, they do possess the traditional Ohioan magic resistance and battlefield luck to a considerable degree- enough that it noticeably lowers their casualty rates when engaged in open battle.

Tercios
(1.5 pts. per man, formed into battalions with de facto strength of 400 men)

The core of the Ohioan army, the regiments labeled as 'tercios' consist of a roughly 1:1 mix of pike and shot, with pikemen typically being deployed in line eight ranks deep, and musketeers four or six ranks deep. The pikemen not only provide screening against hand to hand attacks, but also exhibit in double measure the resistance of formed Ohioan units to magic and supernatural creatures, along with the unique 'luck' that reduces the effect of artillery, fragmentation, and volley fire. This preternatural resilience, along with Ohioan conservatism, has kept pike units in the Ohioan army three generations after the first introduction of the ring bayonet- which has been almost universally adopted by the Ohioan military.

The symbiosis between the virtually unique Ohioan pike and their musketeers creates a fighting force more effective than either of them would be alone.

Light Cavalry
(1.5 pt. per man, formed into warbands with de facto average strength of ~200 men)

Ohioan light cavalry are recruited from the semi-nomadic horse tribes of the Illinois prairie, chiefly from the Kaskaskian Host, which has negotiated rights to grazing lands east of the Kaskaskia River that forms Ohio's formal western border. Some are mercenaries from the hosts further to the west. The tribes typically fight in light armor, with lance, sabre, and flintlock pistol.

The Kaskaskians and other tribes seem not to enjoy the accustomed battlefield luck and magic-resistance of the Ohioan regular army, and when confronted with supernatural opposition, are the most vulnerable element of the overall Ohioan combined-arms force.

Lancers
(2 pts. per man, formed into squadrons with de facto average strength of ~150 men)

Ohio has a cavalry tradition of its own dating back to medieval times and the origins of the Empire in the bluegrass country south of the Ohio. This tradition focuses around heavy shock formations, which remain relatively effective against at least a number of Ohio's typical opponents, although unable to penetrate pike blocks.

Lancers typically wear half-armor or three-quarters armor into combat, and are armed with heavy swords and pistols along with their lances.

The Old True-Bloods
(2 pts. per man, formed into 400-man battalions)

Certain Ohioan tercio formations, with regimental histories dating back to feudal times... all that can be said, empirically, is that in the face of overwhelming fire or malign magic, they do what few other mortal men could do, and survive what few mortal men could survive.

They are not distinguished by recruiting larger, stronger, or fitter men. Nor by superior arms, or modern tactics, or any other tangible thing. It is, so far as can be observed, purely a matter of esprit d'corps and regimental tradition... but these things do not provide protection against grapeshot, except apparently in the Grand Army of the Ohio.

Without exception, the "old true-blood" formations date back to the War of Souls and nearly all distinguished themselves in combat against the necromancers. The secret to their success and victorious legacy is unknown, and no normal means will suffice to 'promote' an ordinary tercio to this blessed status.

Corps of Sharpshooters
(1 pt. per man; formed in platoons and companies of roughly 25 and 80 man average sizes)

Typically expert in camouflage and infiltration (at least by the standards of 18th century warfare). Armed with the Kentucky long rifle, a hunting piece in origin, with a high muzzle velocity but a comparatively light bullet. Has to be reloaded by beating the bullet into the barrel with a hammer and an iron bar, resulting in very poor rate of fire. Highly accurate out to ~300 yards when used with precisely measured powder charges, as some but not all sharpshooters do.

Sharpshooter units are typically attached to formations on wilderness duty, particularly light infantry, and are sometimes found in garrison duty in defense of fortifications.

Field Artillery of the Army of the Ohio
(10 pts. per gun; formed in demi-batteries of three guns)
The Army has mostly standardized on cast-iron guns throwing four-pound balls. These are highly portable and have little difficulty keeping up with the infantry or even the cavalry when necessary. Some formations use the older three-pounders; others use foreign-purchase weapons of heavier build, typically six-pounders. Grape and canister are not unheard of, but are far from universal innovations.

Ohioan artillery drill is less brisk than it ought to be, and thus their gunners suffer from a low rate of fire as well as the inherently low firepower of comparatively light pieces. On the other hand, deliberate fire and low caliber makes it relatively easy to sustain a high rate of fire over long periods.

[MORE ON THE FIELD GUNS]

Siege Artillery of the Army of the Ohio
(15 pts. per gun, formed in batteries of six guns)
Ohioan siege guns are typically of 24pdr caliber and up, and are extremely unwieldy, designed more with riverboat transportation in mind than animal transportation. While effective in reducing fortifications, they lack the mobility and flexibility to be used in the field under normal conditions, and require extended time to transport into firing positions on land. Some mortar batteries are also employed, but there is little practical 'pointswise' difference in the effect of the bombardment.

Naval Forces of the Grand Army of the Ohio
-25 pts. per armed flatboat,
-50 pts. per light galley,
-100 pts. per heavy galley,
-100 pts. per bomb ketch,
-200 pts. per Great Lakes brig/sloop/whatever,
-200 pts. per galleass.
-300 pts. per grand galleass.
-Floating batteries, under construction.

Knights of the White Star
Variable points, mixed assortment of knights ranging from Don Quixote up to Lancelot du Lac in personal dangerousness quotient

The Knights of the White Star were founded several centuries ago as a religious order militant, prior to the evolution of the crusading pike armies of the War of Souls. The dedicated among their ranks possess the very unusual ability within the Living-Star faith to personally focus divinely gifted energy, making them effective holy warriors. However, only a minority of the knights under arms are actually dedicates.

The tercios partly supplanted the White Star's battlefield role as point men in the face of monstrosity, and the order has declined in membership. However, it retains considerable financial and territorial assets dating back to its time as the chief defenders of the faithful. The order has large holdings and a large number of noncombatant personnel within its ranks, partly because it is the only religious order within the Church of the Living Stars that accepts men in anything other than a subordinate role. The knights are fairly often seen outside Ohio's borders, sometimes acting independently, sometimes as scouts or agents of the Empire's political agenda.

[The exact number of knights would be determined by their point total, and their individual point value ranging from two up into double digits based on a Gaussian distribution. They would represent something like five to eight thousand total points]


Typical Ohioan Formations

Regiment, Heavy Infantry: 1590 or 2235 points
-Two or three battalions of heavy infantry (1200 or 1800 points)
-Attached light cavalry warband or heavy cavalry squadron (300 points)
-Two demi-batteries of field guns (60 points)
-Small number are True-Blood regiments (+400 or +600 points)

Regiment, Light Infantry: 1470 or 2015 points
-Two or three battalions of light infantry (1000 or 1500 points)
-Attached light cavalry warband or heavy cavalry squadron (300 points)
-Attached sharpshooters (averaging 80 points)
-Two or three demi-batteries of field guns (90 or 135 points)

Regiment, Horse: 2400 points
-Averaging eight warbands or squadrons of light or heavy cavalry, usually mixed (2400 points)
-Four demi-batteries of horse-drawn field guns (120 points)

[The Romulan Republic]

And here is the long-awaited rules update:

I have considered various issues raised in the threads for this game, and I have updated the rules. I don’t know if I’ve covered everything important, but barring a really major problem, I would like to get straight on to the OOB thread and the story thread. I’ve already started work on both of them, and I hope you will all be pleased with the results.



The Rules Mk. III:

No Godmode, obviously. This includes decisions regarding your faction’s capabilities and backstory that might interfere with other participants.

Comply with all forum rules, obviously.

Don't be a dick.

In the event of a dispute or question, the game moderator/host's decision is final (unless its a matter of forum policy of course, in which case take it to an actual moderator).

Please try to post fairly regularly. If you will be absent for an extended period of time, notify the other participants in advance if possible.

To join, post an Order of Battle in the OOB thread outlining your faction's economic and military capabilities, in accordance with these rules. Additional information is optional, but encouraged.

No technology invented post-1800, as a rule. Exceptions will be considered on a case-by-case basis.

Maximum starting population is fifteen million.

Each faction starts with a maximum of 300,000 points (you may play a smaller faction if you prefer, of course). As a baseline, one point equals one typical human soldier. You will gain 10 percent of your starting points per year of game time, up to a total of 350,000 points in peacetime and 500,000 points in wartime.

Game time will be counted in seasons, with the game moving on to the next season after approximately one month in real time, or at the host/game moderator’s discretion, provided no one raises a major objection. Once the game moves on, no changes can be made to established events of previous “seasons”.

Assembly of new units and buildings will take at least one year in game time.

The more points you spend on a given structure/vehicle/magical item/military unit, the greater its military strength. Powerful magical effects or cutting edge technology (by the standards of the setting) should be especially pricy.

“Reasonable levels” of existing fortifications at the start of the game will be counted as part of the terrain, and be free of cost. Construction of major new fortifications will cost points, with 500 points for a small stone keep as a baseline. An attacking force should generally suffer a reasonable number of casualties in attacking a fortification, and a substantial delay in trying to besiege it.

You can also trade points to another faction, represented in-story as trading valuable goods. This is a way to eventually exceed the point limit via trade and negotiation. I.e., you can say “I’ll give you such and such, in exchange for x number of points worth of trade.” This will then be subtracted from the other nation’s points total and added to yours’.

Trade with NPC factions off the map is permitted, but should be limited in scope. You cannot use this to exceed the point limits. Calling in allies/vassals from off the map is entirely prohibited.

The outcome of engagements will be determined by agreement between the combatants, or by the point value of the forces deployed. In the event of a tie or dispute, the decision will fall to the game moderator/host, though this should be unlikely.

If you wish to involve deities or comparably powerful beings, this can be done through two means.

You may have a being intervene in support of a faction or against another faction, and subtract an appropriate number of points from your total for that intervention (major interventions should be worth at least tens of thousands of points each).

Alternatively, you may ask the game moderator/host to do a 1d6 dice roll to determine the result.

1 equals a large-scale intervention in your favor.
2 equals a large-scale intervention in your favor in exchange for great sacrifices or other costs (to be deducted from your points).
3 or 4 equals no intervention or more than one beings cancelling each other out (no effect).
5 equals a large-scale intervention against you (backfire).
6 equals great losses to your nation (on the order of the majority of your territory or point value).

The exact effects of a given result will be determined by mutual consent among the directly effected parties, or in the event of a dispute, by the host/game moderator.

We will be using a map of North America for the game (credit to Jub for map editing). Feel free to play around with local geography and climate somewhat, but no altering, removing, or adding major features such as major lakes, major rivers, and mountain ranges.

The game will start at around the Winter Solstice.

One final note: While I will be the primary host/game moderator for this game, Simon_Jester will fill in for me if I am temporarily unavailable.

[The Romulan Republic]

By the way, what's the current state of the map, and is everyone basically satisfied with it?

[Crazedwraith]

Crazed, 50 points per gun is rather high compared to other people's artillery. Do your people do anything special with their cannons, that would make them unusually dangerous, or would you be content to take more guns per formation so that the individual point cost drops off somewhat? Your mechanical artillery weapons present similar difficulties.

They're not doing any special with them except throwing heavy balls of metal/metre long spears at people. Just skimmed through and I can't see many posts assigning points per gun. Got a suggestion? I had the ballista/volley guns begged at 12/10 points a piece before upping them. Part of the cost for the cannon is that they're imported. Thus a higher point cost of obtaining them, not necessarily for effectiveness.

Assembly of new units and buildings will take at least one year in game time.

Ah. Now I've not put any mobile units in my order of battle thus far. On the assumption, I'd be able to spend them and levee the troups reasonably, quickly.

[The Romulan Republic]

Oh dear. I believe I was unclear their.

I meant how long it would take to build/train a new structure/unit. Poor word choice on my part. My apologies. It would be unreasonable to ask you to wait a year to muster your troops.

Regrettably, I can't go back and just edit the post in question now, but I hope this clarification makes my intent clear.

[Simon_Jester]

Assembly of new units and buildings will take at least one year in game time.

Hm. I didn't spot this before.

TRR, what if I am preparing or procuring specific weapons and equipment for a planned summer campaign? It's certainly realistic to construct certain types of ships, or to buy cannon from foreigners, in six months or so. And in this case it is very likely that design work and preparation would have been ongoing since before game start.

Likewise, if someone has a large army of, oh, grenadiers or whatever, it is likely that they are continuously recruiting small numbers of grenadiers per month as a routine condition of things. Thus, their army might start growing slowly within a month of game start- but it would continue to grow slowly, rather than having all the troops magically materialize in a big front-loaded thwack at the beginning of the year.

How does that sound?

Crazed, 50 points per gun is rather high compared to other people's artillery. Do your people do anything special with their cannons, that would make them unusually dangerous, or would you be content to take more guns per formation so that the individual point cost drops off somewhat? Your mechanical artillery weapons present similar difficulties.

They're not doing any special with them except throwing heavy balls of metal/metre long spears at people. Just skimmed through and I can't see many posts assigning points per gun. Got a suggestion? I had the ballista/volley guns begged at 12/10 points a piece before upping them. Part of the cost for the cannon is that they're imported. Thus a higher point cost of obtaining them, not necessarily for effectiveness.

Points are points are points; expensive weapons don't have higher point cost to your order of battle unless they actually hurt the target more.

I am portraying relatively slow-firing four-pounder cannon at 10 points, while others might go up to 20 or 30. 50 is a bit high in my opinion. People are portraying respectable-sized warships that only have a point value of 200-300 points, and such a ship would generally have little trouble overwhelming a land-based gun battery of only six cannons.

[The Romulan Republic]

Assembly of new units and buildings will take at least one year in game time.

Hm. I didn't spot this before.

TRR, what if I am preparing or procuring specific weapons and equipment for a planned summer campaign? It's certainly realistic to construct certain types of ships, or to buy cannon from foreigners, in six months or so. And in this case it is very likely that design work and preparation would have been ongoing since before game start.

Likewise, if someone has a large army of, oh, grenadiers or whatever, it is likely that they are continuously recruiting small numbers of grenadiers per month as a routine condition of things. Thus, their army might start growing slowly within a month of game start- but it would continue to grow slowly, rather than having all the troops magically materialize in a big front-loaded thwack at the beginning of the year.

How does that sound?

As I recall, someone suggested a while back that it take a while for new units or some such to be created so it wouldn't happen instantaneously, but perhaps a year is too long. But per month seems too complicated, especially since we're doing game time in seasons.

How about a season in game time to produce a new unit/building/etc.? Is that better?

Of course, realistically, different things would take different amounts of time, but I'd rather not try to come up with a list of how long it would take to build each and every thing, especially at this late a stage. This seems simpler.

[The Romulan Republic]

That said, I'm reluctant to make any changes now unless they're really necessary, because I want people to know what the rules are before the OOB and story threads go up, and that has to happen in the next day if we're going to give people any time to post before Christmas.

[Simon_Jester]

Let's just say "a reasonable amount of time" instead of "a year" and use our own judgment.

None of us would support conjuring up tens of thousands of soldiers out of nowhere instantly.*

But none of us would argue that it would take more than a month or two for a large kingdom to raise an additional unit of 1000 soldiers when it already has an army of two hundred thousand. It's a matter of fairness and common sense.
_________________________

*(Except, perhaps, by an act of magic with pre-approval by the game moderator, and that would be handled under 'divine intervention' rules with the extra soldiers appearing and then being 'used up').

_________________________

EDIT:

Honestly, the only area where I really feel that we need hard and fast numbers are point values (which we have) and "this is about how fast we intend to do time progression (which we have). Everything else can be up to moderation, because whether or not it constitutes an abuse of the rules will always depend on context.

[Aasharu]

I think we should go with a season to produce a new unit/building as a baseline, and just ask that people be sensible about it. Since this is as much cooperative storytelling as it is war gaming, I should hope people wouldn't try and use the excuse of "rules as written" to munchkin themselves to godmode.

Edit: Ninja'd. Basically what Simon said.

[The Romulan Republic]

Agreed.

Thanks for bringing the issues with that bit of the rules to my attention, everyone.

I'm planning to post the rules at the top of the OOB thread as well, so people won't have to dig through this thread to find them. The necessary modification will be edited in.

[Crazedwraith]

Crazed, 50 points per gun is rather high compared to other people's artillery. Do your people do anything special with their cannons, that would make them unusually dangerous, or would you be content to take more guns per formation so that the individual point cost drops off somewhat? Your mechanical artillery weapons present similar difficulties.

They're not doing any special with them except throwing heavy balls of metal/metre long spears at people. Just skimmed through and I can't see many posts assigning points per gun. Got a suggestion? I had the ballista/volley guns begged at 12/10 points a piece before upping them. Part of the cost for the cannon is that they're imported. Thus a higher point cost of obtaining them, not necessarily for effectiveness.

Points are points are points; expensive weapons don't have higher point cost to your order of battle unless they actually hurt the target more.

Well we're using points for two similar but not complete overlapping purposes. The first is as a comparison of strengths for wargaming. So if 1,000 points of spearman meet 800 points of swordsmen. The spearman are (narrowly victorius).

The second is as a measure of how much a nation can have. 300,000 points worth. But no nation is guarantee to have the exact same fighting strength as each other. We can hand wave that they have about the same resources to put to the military though. To take the example of a 74 gun ship. Take two nations. One in a temperate climate with fields of hemp and forests of old oak and the other and arid desert wasteland. They both could build a 1,000 point ship, equivalent in combat power but the desert power's going to need to spent a hell of lot more to do it.

Likewise the problem we're consistently having is how many musket man, a canon, or a ship or a dragon really is. Because of course it all depends on the circumstances. But a 1,000 musketmen on a beach and tell them to have at a 1000 point ship and they'll do diddly squat as they are pounded to jam. Magicall transport those 1,000 musketmen on to the ship and they can take it pretty easily. so long as they can not trip over each other. No number of swordmen no matter the point value will avail against a say a firebreathing dragon. So the point system is a bit crap for that.

I'd have no problem saying these cannon cost me 50 points to accquire and only count for 15-20 in combat. That'd be me limiting myself for role-playing.

I am portraying relatively slow-firing four-pounder cannon at 10 points, while others might go up to 20 or 30. 50 is a bit high in my opinion. People are portraying respectable-sized warships that only have a point value of 200-300 points, and such a ship would generally have little trouble overwhelming a land-based gun battery of only six cannons.

But fine. 10 points for a repeating ballista. Deadly, fast firing but shorter range and bulk. 8 for the spear volley gun. Devastating on it's first discharge. Never useless afterwards. 20 for a canon. 3 times the weight of yours. But that's not going to scale to three times as effective. I imagine goblins mainly keep them around to knock down fortified walls. Which ballista would suck at.

[Jub]

So, here is a quick rundown of my initial thoughts for my faction. I'll post a more full OoB and more background detail later tonight.

The Concordance of the Nine
Location: Denali National park

The Concordance of the Nine is a race (the race, they would insist) of True Dragons descended from ancient Dragon kingdoms that existed in time immemorial. These dragon kindgoms fell to a great cataclysm brought about by the head dragon prophet in a bit to save both dragon and the following civilized life from an even greater calamity. Having fallen, the dragons began to slide into a long period of decline and so created a group of immortal "perfect dragons" who embodied all the power and wisdom of the dragon race and could slowly lead both dragons and the lesser races onto the proper path to avoid the apocalypse and find paradise. However, each of these 9 dragons views the fragmented bits of the prophecy they recieve slightly differently and thus each is tenative to make any move without consulting the others and even after consultation the moves the Concordance make are always the subtlest nudge to get history moving in the right direction.

The idea of the faction is that it has no standing army to speak of, the race of dragons having declined into what would be considered high-magic, stone age people living in Denali natural park. Of course, if frightened and pressed into a combat even a fallen dragon is a frightening opponent. However, the 9 are incredibly powerful beings, worthy of the title of "perfect" dragons but each is so worried about what any application of their power could do to the prophecy that their actions are always limited and precise.

Oh, and random interesting aside, I started thinking about this a decent while ago thinking, "dragons in Denali would be kinda cool. Strange watchers from the highest peak giving cryptic advance and doing seemingly random things with great purpose." The Bastians of panzerkatshark being placed in Alaska with a frost dragon in the background was a kinda cool coincidence I think I would like to work on a bit more too.

You might want to work out living arrangements with Panzer as Denali is within his current borders.

I know the maps was last posted way back, so here's a link.

[Simon_Jester]

Well we're using points for two similar but not complete overlapping purposes. The first is as a comparison of strengths for wargaming. So if 1,000 points of spearman meet 800 points of swordsmen. The spearman are (narrowly victorius).

The second is as a measure of how much a nation can have. 300,000 points worth. But no nation is guarantee to have the exact same fighting strength as each other. We can hand wave that they have about the same resources to put to the military though. To take the example of a 74 gun ship. Take two nations. One in a temperate climate with fields of hemp and forests of old oak and the other and arid desert wasteland. They both could build a 1,000 point ship, equivalent in combat power but the desert power's going to need to spent a hell of lot more to do it.

In such a situation, it would be fair to assume that the desert power obtains its ships by trading with foreigners, possibly by supplying goods which the desert nation has in plenty and which the temperate nation lacks. If I so desire, and were I running such a nation, I would still be entitled to pay 1000 points for a 1000-point ship.

Likewise the problem we're consistently having is how many musket man, a canon, or a ship or a dragon really is. Because of course it all depends on the circumstances. But a 1,000 musketmen on a beach and tell them to have at a 1000 point ship and they'll do diddly squat as they are pounded to jam. Magicall transport those 1,000 musketmen on to the ship and they can take it pretty easily. so long as they can not trip over each other. No number of swordmen no matter the point value will avail against a say a firebreathing dragon. So the point system is a bit crap for that.

This is why I tend to present any large force of my own soldiery as being a combined arms force. Such a force need not be helpless against a dragon or a warship.

Think about A Game of Thrones and the Dance of the Dragons (a civil war in the novels' backstory). Quite a few dragons were brought down by crossbows, siege artillery, poison, and so on. So perhaps my 5000-point army fighting a 2500-point dragon has so many archers that a few of them get lucky and blind the dragon. Or perhaps somewhere among the ranks of that army is one soldier who is destined to be a great hero and manages to track the dragon to its lair and kill it there. The army takes heavy losses, but the dragon is slain. Or who knows what? My imagination is the only limit.

This is precisely the sort of thing I intend to explore in my first series of story posts. A 2000-point or so army fighting a 1200-point or so enemy may well win despite most of its weapons being entirely useless against a significant fraction of the enemy force.

Moreover, such an arrangement is often two-sided. 500 points of cavalrymen with sabres probably can't break up and kill a 500 point formation of pikemen, but conversely the pikemen cannot force the cavalry to fight against their will. 1000 points of musketeers cannot fight a ship of the line in broad daylight by standing on the beach and firing volleys, but they can retreat inland out of sight of the ship's guns and be immune to attack... and heaven help the ship of the line if she anchors too close to shore and is captured by a night boarding action!

I'd have no problem saying these cannon cost me 50 points to accquire and only count for 15-20 in combat. That'd be me limiting myself for role-playing.

That would be you deliberately downpedaling the size of your military, which is of course acceptable. You don't have to, but you can.

I am portraying relatively slow-firing four-pounder cannon at 10 points, while others might go up to 20 or 30. 50 is a bit high in my opinion. People are portraying respectable-sized warships that only have a point value of 200-300 points, and such a ship would generally have little trouble overwhelming a land-based gun battery of only six cannons.

But fine. 10 points for a repeating ballista. Deadly, fast firing but shorter range and bulk. 8 for the spear volley gun. Devastating on it's first discharge. Never useless afterwards. 20 for a canon. 3 times the weight of yours. But that's not going to scale to three times as effective. I imagine goblins mainly keep them around to knock down fortified walls. Which ballista would suck at.

I think that is reasonable.

Also, the cannons might be worth more in battle to you where they are the only such weapons in your arsenal and provide a unique capability your other forces cannot match, compared to what they are worth to someone else.

The marginal advantage from bringing one 12pdr to the field for you, who otherwise have none, may be much greater than the advantage from bringing one 12pdr to the field for me, whose troops have plenty of other guns, if none so heavy and powerful.

[Crazedwraith]

In such a situation, it would be fair to assume that the desert power obtains its ships by trading with foreigners, possibly by supplying goods which the desert nation has in plenty and which the temperate nation lacks. If I so desire, and were I running such a nation, I would still be entitled to pay 1000 points for a 1000-point ship.

Why though?

Seriously good luck importing an entire warship, let alone all the materials as needed to make one, as cheaply as you can make one if you already own all the materials for one.

That's the point. combat power <> cost in reality.

To use the all the combined arms stuff from tomorrow. Hypothetical desert nation shouldn't be able to buy ships as cheap as forest nation but they'd have some other counter they can buy more cheaply than forest nation.

Think about A Game of Thrones and the Dance of the Dragons (a civil war in the novels' backstory). Quite a few dragons were brought down by crossbows, siege artillery, poison, and so on. So perhaps my 5000-point army fighting a 2500-point dragon has so many archers that a few of them get lucky and blind the dragon. Or perhaps somewhere among the ranks of that army is one soldier who is destined to be a great hero and manages to track the dragon to its lair and kill it there. The army takes heavy losses, but the dragon is slain. Or who knows what? My imagination is the only limit.

You could write a story where one of your dudes sneaks into a dragon lair at the dead of night and poisons it. Does that mean that guy + poison is worth the same points as the dragon? Again combat effectiveness cannot equal points. It's not the same thing. And considering we're collaboratively storytelling and no simulating they literally don't matter. We can throw the points out the window and have the story go xyz direction if the faction's
authors want to.

Moreover, such an arrangement is often two-sided. 500 points of cavalrymen with sabres probably can't break up and kill a 500 point formation of pikemen, but conversely the pikemen cannot force the cavalry to fight against their will. 1000 points of musketeers cannot fight a ship of the line in broad daylight by standing on the beach and firing volleys, but they can retreat inland out of sight of the ship's guns and be immune to attack... and heaven help the ship of the line if she anchors too close to shore and is captured by a night boarding action!

holy shit, it's almost like you can't compare point value because it all depends on circumstances. You know, exactly what I just said.

[Crazedwraith]

ghetto edit: Forget it. I have no idea what the hell I'm arguing now or for.

Apologies Simon.