Pre-industrial Fantasy STGOD OOC/Rules Thread:

[madd0ct0r]

I think you are saying the same things. points is points is points and is purely about killyness at reasonable size engagements.

We've said all nations have x points just to e as simple as possible. I've done bilological modelling of energy flows in the tundra to get my numbers of hyenorks about right, but purely becuase I'm a sad little man who enjoys that sort of thing.
I'm still bound by the 300,000 point of killyness rules, it just meant I could make my hyenorks more killy.

[Jub]

Why though?

Seriously good luck importing an entire warship, let alone all the materials as needed to make one, as cheaply as you can make one if you already own all the materials for one.

That's the point. combat power <> cost in reality.

To use the all the combined arms stuff from tomorrow. Hypothetical desert nation shouldn't be able to buy ships as cheap as forest nation but they'd have some other counter they can buy more cheaply than forest nation.

It's a high fantasy game so I'm inclined to tell people to go hog wild with their ideas. In the case of desert ships vs. forest ships, one could easily say that the desert nation great kilns set over immense magma vents that fire the very desert sand into hulls. These hulls are then worked with a series of techniques, some magic, and a pinch of the divine and manage to be a 1-to-1 match for traditional means of ship building in terms of costs.

You could write a story where one of your dudes sneaks into a dragon lair at the dead of night and poisons it. Does that mean that guy + poison is worth the same points as the dragon? Again combat effectiveness cannot equal points. It's not the same thing. And considering we're collaboratively storytelling and no simulating they literally don't matter. We can throw the points out the window and have the story go xyz direction if the faction's
authors want to.

The other person could equally write that the dragon, in agony from his mortal wounds, decides to exact revenge on the enemy with his final moments of life. Thus, could the points costs be equalized by a dying dragon, taking an appropriately dramatic amount of time to die, attacking the enemy army. This is fair by points costs, creates a cool narrative, and probably works out to something a pair of players could agree to.

This isn't some tabletop wargame, nor is it Risk, things have points and stories should be written with points in mind, but in the end, we're here to have fun. If that means a stone age army with naught more than stone spears and faith in the spirits of the animals gets to feel a few dragons or rout a more technologically advanced foe so be it.

EDIT: I saw the edit, but I figured I'd post anyway just in case anybody still wants to dicker over the points are points rules.

[madd0ct0r]

'feel a few dragons' - snort.

[madd0ct0r]

ghetto edit: a book on North American native weaponry and tactics. Most of you are way beyond this tech wise, but still enjoyable: https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Pq0 ... ur&f=false

[Simon_Jester]

ghetto edit: Forget it. I have no idea what the hell I'm arguing now or for.

Apologies Simon.

S'okay.

Basically, the purpose of the point system is to avoid two evils.

One is "troop lists" where someone goes out and specifies exactly what you can buy for your nation and how, which leads to spreadsheeting and is stupidly labor-intensive.

The other is the idiots who want to go "Logically, my army should beat yours because blah blah spherical masses of iron" or "Logically, my superior knowledge of 1920s military trivia means I win the war because you forgot [insert important ship feature here]" or "Logically, your empire is helpless before my two dozen fire-breathing dragons and will be dismembered in weeks."

The cure to all this is so simple. Points. Are points. Are points.

It never actually winds up restricting roleplay in any meaningful sense. I've done this, okay? Honest. Promise. It works. And it saves a tremendous amount of time and energy and fretting over "but this is worth THIS much on the attack and THAT much on the defense except when the moon is full and then it does the OTHER thing and it cost me THIS to build but only does THAT."

Now, people can quibble over stuff like the 'proper' point value of warships and artillery guns just so people who are theoretically using the same kind of weapon are getting the same kind of mileage out of it. But that's all details and tends to evaporate as soon as someone actually has a story to tell, in my experience so far.

It's a high fantasy game so I'm inclined to tell people to go hog wild with their ideas. In the case of desert ships vs. forest ships, one could easily say that the desert nation great kilns set over immense magma vents that fire the very desert sand into hulls. These hulls are then worked with a series of techniques, some magic, and a pinch of the divine and manage to be a 1-to-1 match for traditional means of ship building in terms of costs.

I LIKE it!

This isn't some tabletop wargame, nor is it Risk, things have points and stories should be written with points in mind, but in the end, we're here to have fun. If that means a stone age army with naught more than stone spears and faith in the spirits of the animals gets to feel a few dragons or rout a more technologically advanced foe so be it.

My guys do essentially the same with iron spears, so I support this.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Hmm...since I'm over-budget on points, I shall cut myself back down to twenty Regiments and use the remaining 5,000 points to pay for a Siege REgiment with some big technomantic cannons. They don't have to be as mobile if I'm using them to blow holes in forts now do they?

EDIT: Perhaps a collection of 200 50-point guns divided up as neeeded to support my Regiments. And for these guns I'm thinking absolute monster weapons. The largest smoothbore cast cannon I know of was the 68 pdr muzzle loaders mounted aboard HMS Warrior in 1860. Perhaps something that size or even bigger, and maybe some good old mechanical catapaults for hurling glass bottles full of proto-tear gas over walls, or magic-fused explosive shells. Mwahahaha.

[Coop D'etat]

Forgive me if this has come up before, but how are we going to treat the inhabitants of the unclaimed areas on the map?

[Simon_Jester]

That answer is probably going to vary.

The usual approach is to let major players define some of the NPCs immediately on their borders, while having more distant parts of the map just be unspecified until someone sees a reason to decide what goes there. So we assume that the unclaimed land is populated somehow unless it's an utterly barren wasteland, but it's populated with comparatively small and irrelevant entities that are more trouble than they're worth to detail or worry about, until they give us specific cause to care about them.

For instance, unless someone objects strongly, Detroit is an independent mostly magocratic city-state that sits on the path between Lake Erie and Lake Huron and extracts exorbitant tolls from lake traffic. The city has a thriving bronze industry because it's an import center for Lake Superior copper from the Upper Peninsula, and is generally a nuisance to anyone who favors free or free-ish trade on the Great Lakes.

I say this because it was my idea and a campaign against Detroit struck me as an interesting thing to do (hey, I could have just asserted during startup that I owned the city, but this is more fun). Control of the city would support Ohio's strategic ambitions, while potentially allowing it to do so in a way that would actually please the other major powers with an interest in the Great Lakes, because Detroit is a nuisance bordering on a bunch of robber barons from the point of view of people trying to ship cargo through the lakes.

[Coop D'etat]

I have similar ideas coming from the other side of the lakes We should talk some about the what's going on along Lake Michigan and Huron.

[Simon_Jester]

[Sighs]

It'd be easier if I could find the last map update... It's been a while and I'm not even sure you were signed into the game when it happened.

My idea was, basically, that while Lake Erie is more or less kept in order by Ohio (Imperial528's confederation barely touches the lake and I'm starting to worry that he's not going to be doing much with it anyway), and your guys have a lock (literally, at OTL Sault St. Marie, in all likelihood) on Lake Superior...

Basically, the Lower Peninsula of Michigan is a disorganized and lawless place with no central authority, and similar problems apply on the Canadian side of Lake Huron and the west side of Lake Michigan (as I recall you don't own that). There are probably a number of city-states powerful enough to be stable and locally secure, but there is good reason to expect them to bolster their economy and share of the lake traffic by practicing privateering or piracy on the lakes themselves.

The net result I'd imagined was something like the Mediterranean Sea during the worst of the Barbary Corsairs' era, where the most cost effective thing you can do in the short run is buy them off and tolerate their occasional plundering of coastal settlements because projecting power against them is too much trouble.

Neither the Assiniboine (?) nor Ohio are happy with this situation, and I doubt Orion or Imperial528's confederacy are either. However, the central portion of the Lakes (between Sault St. Marie and Detroit, hydrologically speaking) are largely outside anyone's influence.

Ohio, for one, would like to alter this state of affairs and have definite territorial ambitions in the Lower Peninsula, especially Detroit. Holding the site of OTL Chicago gives them a base on Lake Michigan, but it also leaves them somewhat overextended, as the city is regularly threatened and/or cut off on the landward side by hostile Illinois Cossacks, and also regularly threatened and/or cut off on the lakeward side by random bunches of lake pirates and city-states with a grudge harassing the Ohioan coastal settlements at the southern tip of the lake.

At the moment Ohio is trying to push a canal to Lake Michigan from the existing Northwestern Canal (OTL Wabash and Erie Canal). That would ease the logistical problems and make it easier to sustain a large force up there while also meeting their other commitments on other borders, but it's a long term project that will take years. And it's only a partial solution as long as Ohio lacks the ability to project power northwest into Lakes Huron and Michigan.

Which is why Detroit is such a tempting prize, plus the fact that the high tolls they charge to use the Detroit River haven't made them any friends among the major maritime powers of the Lakes.

On the other hand, the city's bronze industry means they have some quite impressive artillery defenses, backed by a cabal of wizards who specialize in demonology, so they're too badass to take out with anything other than a very major commitment of force.

How does that sound?

[Coop D'etat]

Sounds good to me. I was figuring that towards my end of things that Manitoulin island is severely pirate infested and there is a major robber baron stronghold on the Michilimackinac. I've been intending that my early stories will involve the suppression of the local pirate king on the upper Huron.

[TimothyC]

By the way, what's the current state of the map, and is everyone basically satisfied with it?

I've been busy with things.

Expect a map update tomorrow (the 23rd) sometime.

[Simon_Jester]

Sounds good to me. I was figuring that towards my end of things that Manitoulin island is severely pirate infested and there is a major robber baron stronghold on the Michilimackinac. I've been intending that my early stories will involve the suppression of the local pirate king on the upper Huron.

Hm.

We'll scratch your back if you scratch ours? Although reducing Detroit is going to be hard, and if you go after those pirates on Lake Huron before Ohio manages to secure passage beyond the city, then the only support Ohio can give is with the Lake Michigan flotilla which is... less than impressive.

[Coop D'etat]

Sounds good to me. I was figuring that towards my end of things that Manitoulin island is severely pirate infested and there is a major robber baron stronghold on the Michilimackinac. I've been intending that my early stories will involve the suppression of the local pirate king on the upper Huron.

Hm.

We'll scratch your back if you scratch ours? Although reducing Detroit is going to be hard, and if you go after those pirates on Lake Huron before Ohio manages to secure passage beyond the city, then the only support Ohio can give is with the Lake Michigan flotilla which is... less than impressive.

I think we can work out an arrangement, provided that Commonwealth interests are sufficently served.

[Jub]

The last map was back on page 10.

http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic. ... 5#p3940540

[The Romulan Republic]

By the way, what's the current state of the map, and is everyone basically satisfied with it?

I've been busy with things.

Expect a map update tomorrow (the 23rd) sometime.

Excellent.

I'm just going to finish up the OOB thread and put that up this morning, followed immediately by the main story thread. So we should have everything up and running by tonight.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Hmm...Simon, givent he canals and borders that currently exist, is there any feasible way for Orion to get ships in range of Detroit for bombardment duties? Or would we have to partially disassemble them and ship them overland. Because those high tarrifs on copper and bronze are going to hurt me as well, and Orion does have a tendency to enjoy shelling people from warships.

[Simon_Jester]

Well, the biggest problems for you would be twofold. One is political, one is gravitational.

...

The gravitational problem is going to be getting the ships past Niagara Falls. Sailing up the St. Lawrence into Lake Ontario is almost certainly not a problem, but between Lake Erie and Lake Ontario is the Niagara River and the largest collection of waterfalls on the North American continent.

Ohio doesn't own the Falls, it looks like Imperial528's confederation would be the people to go to there. Historically, a canal was dug on the Canadian side of the river to permit ships of modest size to pass the Falls by going around in the 1820s- the Welland Canal. However, a canal like this (or any other canal built with medieval/Renaissance technology) isn't likely to be deep enough to admit large oceangoing warships. It's designed for barge and riverboat traffic, not for frigates.

The historical Welland Canal of the early 1800s was eight feet deep; typical warships of the late Age of Sail, including the small ones, drew twenty feet of water- and needed that buoyancy to support all the men, guns, and supplies they'd need. And digging the canal deep enough to pass a ship with a draft of twenty feet would probably increase the amount of work involved in the construction effort by a factor of four or six or eight or even more- because deeper means wider.

So honestly... no, I do not think the ships on your list could make it onto the Lakes. Historically, the US, British, and Canadian navies all did operate warships on the Lakes during the Age of Sail, but all of these ships were built in yards on the Lakes. None came in from the ocean, so far as I can remember.

...

The political problem is that even if it were practical for the Orion Navy to make it onto Lake Erie, sail up to Detroit, and bombard the city, the political precedent thus set would make Ohio (and, if they have any sense, Imperial528's coalition) verrry nervous. Ohio would probably not consider Orion aid desirable for this reason.

However, Ohio does consider Orion's "pig pocking siege guns"* to be desirable. We have siege artillery as heavy as most of yours, but it is (literally) massively less manageable and of lesser craftsmanship, and there is nothing in the Ohioan arsenal that can match Orion field guns in any relevant respect. Ohio would very much like to buy some Orion artillery for the siege, and is prepared to offer significant trade concessions about the tolls it will charge should it succeed in taking Detroit in order to make that happen.

I have a story post planned to write after I come back in early January, about the diplomacy to make that happen, and we can work out a way to have joint participation as authors even if your national navy can't make an appearance on account of not being able to fit a twenty foot deep ship through an eight foot deep canal.
_______________________

*Sorry, reference to some mildly readable SF novels I read as a teenager...

[Eternal_Freedom]

Fair enough. However, Orion would be quite leery about outright selling Ohio the Technomantic guns, can't risk you reverse-engineering the enchantments used ont he guns, the shot and the powder. That being said, we may be open to allowing our Siege Regiment to travel to Detroit to join the siege/bombardment/reduction of the city n exchange for some nice juicy trade deals.

I think that a first volley of exploding/incindiary shells from the catapaults to start fires and cause panic, followed by another volley of proto-teargas to disorient and weaken defenders and firefighters (and civilians) would be an excellent preulde to the 100 120-pounder long guns starting their barrage....mwahahaha.

That brings up another point actually. As far as Orion is concerned, there is no such thing as an "invalid target" in war. Anything that is actively resisting us, or assisting those that do so, are fair game. Given the number of undead and mages running around we feel this to be fully justified. Only those who surrender are spared.

[madd0ct0r]

Well, the biggest problems for you would be twofold. One is political, one is gravitational.

...

The gravitational problem is going to be getting the ships past Niagara Falls. Sailing up the St. Lawrence into Lake Ontario is almost certainly not a problem, but between Lake Erie and Lake Ontario is the Niagara River and the largest collection of waterfalls on the North American continent.

Ohio doesn't own the Falls, it looks like Imperial528's confederation would be the people to go to there. Historically, a canal was dug on the Canadian side of the river to permit ships of modest size to pass the Falls by going around in the 1820s- the Welland Canal. However, a canal like this (or any other canal built with medieval/Renaissance technology) isn't likely to be deep enough to admit large oceangoing warships. It's designed for barge and riverboat traffic, not for frigates.

The historical Welland Canal of the early 1800s was eight feet deep; typical warships of the late Age of Sail, including the small ones, drew twenty feet of water- and needed that buoyancy to support all the men, guns, and supplies they'd need. And digging the canal deep enough to pass a ship with a draft of twenty feet would probably increase the amount of work involved in the construction effort by a factor of four or six or eight or even more- because deeper means wider.

So honestly... no, I do not think the ships on your list could make it onto the Lakes. Historically, the US, British, and Canadian navies all did operate warships on the Lakes during the Age of Sail, but all of these ships were built in yards on the Lakes. None came in from the ocean, so far as I can remember.

...

The political problem is that even if it were practical for the Orion Navy to make it onto Lake Erie, sail up to Detroit, and bombard the city, the political precedent thus set would make Ohio (and, if they have any sense, Imperial528's coalition) verrry nervous. Ohio would probably not consider Orion aid desirable for this reason.

However, Ohio does consider Orion's "pig pocking siege guns"* to be desirable. We have siege artillery as heavy as most of yours, but it is (literally) massively less manageable and of lesser craftsmanship, and there is nothing in the Ohioan arsenal that can match Orion field guns in any relevant respect. Ohio would very much like to buy some Orion artillery for the siege, and is prepared to offer significant trade concessions about the tolls it will charge should it succeed in taking Detroit in order to make that happen.

I have a story post planned to write after I come back in early January, about the diplomacy to make that happen, and we can work out a way to have joint participation as authors even if your national navy can't make an appearance on account of not being able to fit a twenty foot deep ship through an eight foot deep canal.
_______________________

*Sorry, reference to some mildly readable SF novels I read as a teenager...

Pish. just dam the Niagara and use that + a series of locks or boat wheels. Admiettdly, not sure what a Damned river in a necromancy setting looks like, but it'll keep the marines busy.

[Simon_Jester]

By the way, while Ohio is second-tier in most techological fields and all areas of arcane magic...

By the Living Stars we have the best hats.

[Seriously, Ohioan aesthetics and culture is heavily influenced by 17th century France, so magnificent hats and mustachios are the order of the day. Note that Ohioans may not be able to compete directly with hats and headdresses inspired by non-European cultures; if you want those in their sheer balls-out colorful glory the Aztecs might be your go-to for that.]

Pish. just dam the Niagara and use that + a series of locks or boat wheels. Admiettdly, not sure what a Damned river in a necromancy setting looks like, but it'll keep the marines busy.

Oh God damming the Niagara would be such a big project.

Seriously, they did eventually dig a canal deep enough (using, yes, a series of locks) that Age of Sail warships could make it past the Falls, but it didn't happen until the late 19th or early 20th century, which is a little 'late' to be an appropriate feat of engineering for our setting in my opinion.

Fair enough. However, Orion would be quite leery about outright selling Ohio the Technomantic guns, can't risk you reverse-engineering the enchantments used ont he guns, the shot and the powder.

Have you seen the state of Ohioan wizardry? Believe me, Ohio is NOT a serious risk in this regard. Honestly, the Detroiters would be more likely to reverse-engineer your guns than Ohio would.

You were talking about selling the guns earlier...

I know I've been an enthusiastic reverse-engineer-er in the last two games I'd played, but those were Umerians. Ohio is not Umeria. And OOC-wise you have my assurance that Ohio will be far too busy praying at any artillery you sell them to actually stop and try to take them apart to see how they work.

That being said, we may be open to allowing our Siege Regiment to travel to Detroit to join the siege/bombardment/reduction of the city n exchange for some nice juicy trade deals.

I think that a first volley of exploding/incindiary shells from the catapaults to start fires and cause panic, followed by another volley of proto-teargas to disorient and weaken defenders and firefighters (and civilians) would be an excellent preulde to the 100 120-pounder long guns starting their barrage....mwahahaha.

"Bring your own gunpowder."

In all honesty, I don't know, the Ohioans might just do without at this point. They don't want the guns to reverse-engineer them, they want the guns to equip a handful of custom-built warships and a modest number of batteries on land. They'd probably not mind just not buying Orion mass-effect powder and shot and supplying their own ammunition; it's the guns themselves that are desirable.

That brings up another point actually. As far as Orion is concerned, there is no such thing as an "invalid target" in war. Anything that is actively resisting us, or assisting those that do so, are fair game. Given the number of undead and mages running around we feel this to be fully justified. Only those who surrender are spared.

[Vincennes nods grimly, strokes his Van Dyke]

"Needless effusion of blood. Gotcha."

[Simon_Jester]

Hm.

A practical consideration for me:

Within about 48 hours I am going to depart on a long road trip. Two days after that I board a ship and will be more or less entirely out of contact with the outside world for a full week. I would like to get at least the starting portion of my "Pike and Shot" post sequence done before then. The full story is working up towards novella length, and realistically I can't finish it all in the next two days while making my travel preparations. But I still want some of it to be up.

And ideally I'd rather not just spam all the posts on Christmas Eve and not give anyone time to ask questions, make suggestions, or react to what I am saying.

Since I have at most 2-4 days in which to do this, time is a factor. I would prefer not to wait another 12-24 hours before I have permission to do anything.

I understand that not everyone has orders of battle up, and so on, but really, what I'm doing here doesn't affect anyone else directly, it chronicles a single skirmish on the border of my state with an NPC. I have no intention of immediately declaring war on a PC state and asserting that I've somehow instantly destroyed their armed forces, or anything stupid and obnoxious like that. It's quite simply that as a practical matter, I am not in a good position to wait another two or three days to start posting. I had kind of hoped to start at least two or three days ago, to be quite honest.

I think that within the next couple of hours, I am going to take the liberty of starting the Story Post thread myself, so that I can park my first post in there. I invite all others to join me.

I do not say this with any intention of subverting TRR's position or intentions, or with causing anyone to do anything against their will. All I want is an opportunity to air my (hopefully satisfactory and hopefully interesting) writing before I leave on a long vacation- an opportunity I will lose if my posting is delayed much longer.

[The Romulan Republic]

A couple notes:

First off, I've gone back and read over the recent concerns regarding the points system. While I'm not going to go through the whole debate line by line, I understand that their was some concern that the point system was too simple, too vague, and didn't cover certain issues.

First of all, this is at least partly by design. It is my preference to keep the rules fairly simple for this game. If we tried to cover how much everything is worth in every situation, we'd end up with page after unwieldy page of stats., which would shift the focus of the game from collaborative storytelling to stats. Some people might prefer that, and any such game will likely have an element of both, but its my preference to emphasize storytelling over stats. Apologies if that wasn't previously clear.

In other words, the points system is their to give a framework, a baseline, a rough idea of how things are supposed to be. That means, of course, that the details will, to some extent, be a matter of individual discretion. Hopefully everyone here has the good sense to behave in a reasonable manner and not grotesquely abuse any loopholes they find in the point system. However, in the event of a serious disagreement, talk to me and I'll try to come up with a fair solution.

Their was also a question about how to handle NPCs/unpopulated areas. Simon_Jester already addressed this, but to add my two cents:

Basically, people have some freedom to decide what the NPCs around them are like, as long as it doesn't interfere with anyone else (it is wise to discuss plans for NPCs with other neighbouring factions). If this was unclear, I can specify that in the rules as well. In fact, I believe I'll do so.

And on that note, I am going to put up the OOB thread now, immediately followed by the story thread.

Simon_Jester, I apologize for the delay and assure you I will have the story thread up within a couple of hours. If not, feel free to put it up yourself.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Simon: Yeah I was talking about selling guns, and I doubt you'd be able to figure out what I've done with them anyways, but I was hoping to have my own guys involved for narrative purposes, since such an operation does benefit me in the long run.

If you do decide to go ahead anyways, that's cool, I can always have a post showing my Siege guys blasting some other poor sods that tried settling in the wrong place.

[Simon_Jester]

E_F, I certainly would not want to remove your participation as an author.

Perhaps you could send officers as military observers or attachés? The concept is somewhat... advanced for this time period, but it was hardly unusual for a few foreign officers to be present under such circumstances and observing the action, sometimes from uncomfortably close range.

The siege of Detroit will take considerable time to prepare, so there's plenty of time for us to work out the details.