150 armed Militia occupy federal property in Oregon.

[Zaune]

You'd still have dead kids, though, and nobody would win then.

If they start running out of supplies and still won't surrender, it'll be time to either storm the building and accept some police casualties in the process, or let the American Red Cross air-drop some food and water. If these militia nuts want to claim that the federal government's refusal to let their hostages suffer for their stubbornness grants them some sort of moral victory, so be it.

[The Romulan Republic]

Edit: And Thanas, while I think you are overstating things, it is probably true that you won't be able to ensure supplies go only to the children. But why would it be necessary for the state to pay to supply these people? Couldn't you allow a private charity/NGO to bring in humanitarian aid? I mean, we have temporary ceasefires for humanitarian aid in actual warfare, but we can't do that here for some reason?

Are you fucking serious?

The fact that they cannot stay in there forever, and you can stay outside forever is literally the ONLY bargaining chip you have unless you want to storm the place.

You can totally let the kids out. If they wont let the kids out, that is on them. They permitted their children to die of dehydration while engaged in a criminal act. Tack on murder charges. So long as they dont immolate themselves, you wont get a Waco repeat.

Murder charges after the fact won't bring a bunch of children back to life.

And frankly, weather immolated (at least a relatively quick death) or slowly killed from dehydration, the end result is the same. Dead children.

I get that these militia people are assholes. I can even get behind calling them terrorists. I get that we don't want to just give into them. Hell, I've been saying for ages that we need to take Right wing extremism more seriously.

But I'd prefer an outcome that doesn't involve a bunch of dead children, and I find the swiftness with which various people here are willing to embrace a course of action that could lead to a bunch of dead children and dismiss other options rather... unsettling, to say the least. And possibly counterproductive to stopping this shit, because nothing's going to get these people sympathy like "They're starving our children!" Even if they caused the situation in the first place.

And I can see some other things to use against them besides cutting off food and water to children. Not sure if all of these would be possible under US law, but just suggesting some possibilities. Feel free to shoot them down if you can.

1. Sieze all their assets if they don't surrender. Homes, bank accounts, their precious property, everything.
2. Refuse to let them leave. You can do this even if you let supplies in. I wonder how long they'll be content to live in a cabin in the wilderness.
3. Obviously, refuse to let in all non-essentials.
4. Arrest anyone trying to join them, obviously.

And yeah, Zaune's got it.

If we get to the point where children are starving to death, we'll have to storm the place, and damn the consequences.

[Lagmonster]

This isn't an armed rebellion. It's a bunch of children throwing a tantrum. Yes, it's scaled up from the mewling of a toddler, and people could get hurt via stupidity, but in the long run I expect the government to take on the same tactics that parents do: Keep them isolated so they can't break anything important, let them yell until they're tired, and then send them off for a nap.

[Iroscato]

Wonder what the reaction would be from the media if these feckers were mainly Muslim. I wonder, I wonder...

[Flagg]

So cops flat out murder a black child, black community protests peacefully without firearms and are thus set upon by brutal riot police who beat and arrest them.

Armed white redneck "militia" aka mobs with guns, refuse federal orders to leave and flat out say they will resist with violence and... The "authorities" negotiate.

Here's a better idea, encircle their "camp" aka traitorous cesspool with 5 M1A2 Abrams Heavy Tanks, 10 Bradley Armored Fighting Vehicles, plenty of MRAP's & Humvees with .50 caliber machine guns & machine grenade launchers, as well as plenty of infantry, snipers with high caliber long range rifles. and a few Apache's on standby, and give them 12 hours to surrender peacefully.

If they don't, (since they will likely use women and children as shields like the cowards they are, and since all of those vehicles and infantry and helicopters are for show) you drive a single unarmed Humvee right up to whatever fortifications they have, say whatever you have to to get them to take a shot (or appear ready to), then let your long-range, well hidden snipers do all the work. Now, these assholes will likely then open up on the well fortified soldiers who have orders not to shoot unless the traitorous shitheels start executing their own women and children, at which point they move in to rescue the "hostages" (as they will and should be called once the 12 hour demand is made) and mop up the rest of the traitorous criminals, taking prisoners to be charged with anything under the sun prosecutors can think of.

Of course you never actually have any official government or military statement refer to them as traitors, you just let whatever assholes in the media on the side of law and order (actual law and order, not "if they browner than a I-Talian with a suntan they guilty of sumthin' hurr hurr! law and order") infer or outright call them that.

Why do you do this? Because if you don't, then every single duly and legally elected Democratic President of any race and/or gender (aka probably every president for the next 20 years unless the Republicans get their shit together or commit mass suicide (barring a building getting knocked down by a Muslim, then the pussies of America (60-80% depending on location and body count) will go running to the most racist, ignorant, and war whoring asshole up for the office promising mushroom clouds over Tehran and Mecca, and we all know which party THEY will be the nominee of). I know which I prefer.) will have to deal with bullshit like this until an entire municipality, county, or state secedes from the union and we WILL have to start killing their women and children used as human shields.

[Flagg]

Wonder what the reaction would be from the media if these feckers were mainly Muslim. I wonder, I wonder...

They'd have been dead 12 hours after it started, the survivors over 12 (probably, but maybe 14, or 16) charged with terrorism, and Donald Trump's parasitic/symbiotic alien organism would grow in strength exploding with even more mind-control spores turning the world into tasteless douchebags with multiple bankruptcies and no scruples.

[Rogue 9]

There's really no need to get dramatic about surrounding them. They're on top of a mountain in Oregon in January. Just cut off utilities and don't plow the road next time it snows. They'll be begging for mercy inside a week.

[Flagg]

There's really no need to get dramatic about surrounding them. They're on top of a mountain in Oregon in January. Just cut off utilities and don't plow the road next time it snows. They'll be begging for mercy inside a week.

They don't plow the roads anyway. I live in the Pacific Northwest, it snows and everyone shits themselves, whines about there not being enough plows, drive 25mph on I-5, and then shit themselves again.

But fine, just napalm the mountain to ashes and do a few runs with a half a dozen A-10's. The point is, this is at least the second time you have redneck dipshits with guns defying federal officials. If this were in Compton, as opposed to a lilywhite group of inbreds camped in Oregon, there would be martial law, the blood would be running in the gutters, and the bodies of dead children, from infants to grade-schoolers, would be piled up in the local parks getting picked at by police dogs. And all but a very few American News outlets would be outraged, the rest would be justifying it, and Donald Dump would be cracking jokes to rapturous applause at Downs Syndrome Republican Fundraisers.

[Rogue 9]

There's really no need to get dramatic about surrounding them. They're on top of a mountain in Oregon in January. Just cut off utilities and don't plow the road next time it snows. They'll be begging for mercy inside a week.

They don't plow the roads anyway. I live in the Pacific Northwest, it snows and everyone shits themselves, whines about there not being enough plows, drive 25mph on I-5, and then shit themselves again.

But fine, just napalm the mountain to ashes and do a few runs with a half a dozen A-10's. The point is, this is at least the second time you have redneck dipshits with guns defying federal officials. If this were in Compton, as opposed to a lilywhite group of inbreds camped in Oregon, there would be martial law, the blood would be running in the gutters, and the bodies of dead children, from infants to grade-schoolers, would be piled up in the local parks getting picked at by police dogs. And all but a very few American News outlets would be outraged, the rest would be justifying it, and Donald Dump would be cracking jokes to rapturous applause at Downs Syndrome Republican Fundraisers.

I don't propose letting them get away with defying the federal government. I'm just saying that they don't deserve a big show and see no reason to indulge their desire for martyrdom. Once they come whimpering down from the mountain they can be arrested; there's no rush to storm the building.

[Elheru Aran]

A military response would be disproportionate and feed into right-wing fears. It's 2016 and an election year. Odds are good that's precisely why the militia waited until the turn of the year to pull this shit because they know that at the very least it can be spun as "the Democrats responded just a bit too harsh" if there's any response stronger than a wet fart.

No, a quiet siege and turning it into a news non-event is the way to go. They're common criminals, let's not give them any more respect (or news coverage) than they deserve.

[Flagg]

Last I checked we didn't let criminals decide when they would get arrested and on what terms in this country. We tried that with Waco and they burned themselves to ash along with innocent children with them and despite that they are given martyrdom status. They will come out as martyrs or winners, there is no in-between for cretins like this. They are Koresh or Cliven Bundy, and frankly the more dead militia types, the better.

That said, of course this being an election year, and our current Pussy in Chief having the spine of a jellyfish, the feds will probably just stand down and let these fanatical cunts go about doing whatever the fuck they want, because they are white's with AR-15's, not blacks in Wal-Mart looking at an air rifle they may want to purchase.

[The Romulan Republic]

There's really no need to get dramatic about surrounding them. They're on top of a mountain in Oregon in January. Just cut off utilities and don't plow the road next time it snows. They'll be begging for mercy inside a week.

They don't plow the roads anyway. I live in the Pacific Northwest, it snows and everyone shits themselves, whines about there not being enough plows, drive 25mph on I-5, and then shit themselves again.

But fine, just napalm the mountain to ashes and do a few runs with a half a dozen A-10's. The point is, this is at least the second time you have redneck dipshits with guns defying federal officials. If this were in Compton, as opposed to a lilywhite group of inbreds camped in Oregon, there would be martial law, the blood would be running in the gutters, and the bodies of dead children, from infants to grade-schoolers, would be piled up in the local parks getting picked at by police dogs. And all but a very few American News outlets would be outraged, the rest would be justifying it, and Donald Dump would be cracking jokes to rapturous applause at Downs Syndrome Republican Fundraisers.

Seriously?

US law enforce has its problems, but its not the fucking Gestapo or the Mongol Horde. Piles of dead infants being eaten by dogs in the streets? Really?

And people say I'm an alarmist.

And can you even begin to fathom the political consequences of something as excessive as an air strike on these people?

Impeachment is the best case scenario if you ask me.

Moron.

But then, you're practically salivating over a potential bloodbath.

Edit: My ideal response-

Designate them terrorists, surround them, arrest anyone trying to enter or exit and bar any resupply except for essential supplies delivered by a credible NGO such as the Red Cross (to prevent dying children and such). If they start shooting, have the police storm the place with the National Guard as backup. Charge any survivors with trespassing and terrorism.

That's a very basic outline, of course. I'm sure their are many other nuances that would require someone with greater knowledge of law enforcement to address.

[Broomstick]

Last I checked we didn't let criminals decide when they would get arrested and on what terms in this country.

It's actually pretty standard to delay storming the castle when hostages are involved. It's not about letting the criminals choose, it's about minimizing the potential damage.

[Zor]

This is out and out contempt for the rule of law. Bring down the Iron Fist of State Authority on these militiatards.

Zor

[Gandalf]

No need for that. They're already sending out pleas for food and such.

This can be resolved without use of state resources or risk of life. Handled correctly, they'll all wind up in front of a judge, known as the guys who seized a building in the middle of nowhere for some reason with not enough provisions for the week.

[The Romulan Republic]

The thing is, I don't want them to be forgotten. I want them to be made an example of. Its too late to avoid them getting publicity, so the next best thing is to show that their is a heavy price for disregarding the rule of law in such a manner.

That doesn't have to me storming the place and killing them, of course. Ideally it'll just mean stiff prison sentences.

[Ziggy Stardust]

<snip>
But I'd prefer an outcome that doesn't involve a bunch of dead children, and I find the swiftness with which various people here are willing to embrace a course of action that could lead to a bunch of dead children and dismiss other options rather... unsettling, to say the least.

Where are you getting the idea that these people have anywhere near the fortitude to actually hold out long enough for anyone to starve to death? By all accounts, this is an ill-supplied and ill-prepared group of middle-aged or older hotheads with little to no actual training or experience in any sort of sustained operations, there aren't battle-hardened veterans. They will fold pretty quickly.

[The Romulan Republic]

One can only hope.

With any luck, this will end in a few days or so with these assholes slinking out of their hole into the welcoming arms of law enforcement.

[biostem]

I was reading up on this whole issue, and it seems to center on these farmers being accused of setting fires on federal land... what are they actually protesting?

[Joun_Lord]

The thing is, I don't want them to be forgotten. I want them to be made an example of. Its too late to avoid them getting publicity, so the next best thing is to show that their is a heavy price for disregarding the rule of law in such a manner.

I don't want them to be made an example of or have any heavy handed approach to them. I don't want to give the numbskulls any more ammunition to use about government abuses.

Ideally they should be taken down with kid gloves if at all possible and charged with the laws they broke but nothing extreme. No throwing the book at them, no "making an example", nothing to make them martyrs for the camo clad clans they represent. No repeat if heavy handed jailing like what happened to the Hammonds and got people pissed in the first place (not these people mind you, the Hammonds were just an excuse much like how people used the death of Micheal Brown in Ferguson to got looting, people who want to use a something serious that they really don't care about to cause trouble and give them people who actually care about it a bad name) but completely fair and even prosecution.

I want them to be forgotten. I want them to be made social pariahs, be made media toxic, to no longer have the cameras giving them prostate exams, to no longer have the attention they whore for. Not be made heroes or villains but nobodies that nobody cares about.

Also, of so much fucking irony.

[Grumman]

I was reading up on this whole issue, and it seems to center on these farmers being accused of setting fires on federal land... what are they actually protesting?

They are protesting against the use of an anti-terrorism law to punish people who were not committing acts of terrorism.

[Patroklos]

I was reading up on this whole issue, and it seems to center on these farmers being accused of setting fires on federal land... what are they actually protesting?

The protest that these guys broke off of was in regards to an increase in the prison sentence of the Hamands. They were initially prosecuted for starting two fires on their own land that spread to public land, one in 2001 and one in 2006. This trial happened in 2010 (the fact that it took nine years to care about the 2001 fire is dubious in and of itself) and out of 19 charges the Hammonds were brought up on only one stuck, setting a malicious fire. The rest they were acquitted of or the jury deadlocked. The damage to the government was estimated to be $1000 by the court (139 acres in 2001, less than 1 acre in 2006(again the trivial nature of this one is dubious in and of itself)). It should be noted the Hammonds did not start the 2006 fire, it was sparked by lightning and the Hammonds tried to fight it on their lands with a back fire.

The true controversy was that the government tried these fires as terrorism charges. That is ridiculous on its face, and the court knew it, so while the jury returned one charge as guilty the court knew the minimum sentence of five years, meant for terrorists, was grossly inappropriate. Complicating things the Hammonds and the prosecution made a plea deal to end the trial on the deadlocked charges if the Hammonds agreed not to appeal the one charge the jury returned as guilty. So the judge, given the above, handed a sentence down of one year for one Hammond and three months for the other based on the one guilty finding. Some people were not happy with that either, but with the court outright chastising the prosecution for stupidly resorting to a terrorism charge and the Hammond's accepting a plea deal, most parties were mollified.

The Hammonds served both sentences. The prosecution, citing the same terrorism law with the minimum sentence, went to a higher court to overturn the original sentence for the five year one. They got their wish. The Hammonds maintain this was a violation of their plea deal with the prosecution on top of the sentence still being stupid on its face.

The context for it, according to the Hammonds at their trial and the community generally, is that the Feds have been trying to expand the subject wilderness reserve for decades. In order to do this they use a variety of means including buying private owners out. When private owners refuse to sell the Feds do things like close all the roads around the properties or dam off all the natural water flows onto the properties to harass stubborn owners off their land. This is a pretty common story throughout rural America. So when the feds upped the ante by using terrorism charges on recalcitrant land owners while having a publicly know ulterior motive regarding expanding the preserve, lots of people called foul on many fronts. In addition the feds finagled a 400K damages fine on the Hammonds at a later date despite the earlier courts findings of a far small value for the unremarkable and uninhabited scrub land in question. Whether you believe it or not, that's the position of the Hammond's, these guys at the taken over compound (they have never identified themselves as a militia btw), and lots of ranchers/rural land owners generally. This is where they are coming from.

Now, whether you want to think these occupiers are really motivated by that is up to you, but the original protests that sparked this were based on the above.

[Solauren]

I agree with the 'light touch' in this scenario

Cut off the utilities, cut off access routes and supplies, and let the fuckers experience the ACTUAL effects of their stupidity.

This is literally a bunch of half-assed survivor-list style nuts, with no idea what is actually needed to take over and fortify a building. Hell, half of them are probably on some form of social assistance. (As evidenced by the post above)

Starve them out, let them surrender, arrest them, charge them with whatever you can, let them plea bargain, let the plea bargins be public knowledge (and include 'I fought the law, and the law won' statements and jail time), and then toss them in.

And make sure to deny them benefits or the right to vote as convicted felons.

[Patroklos]

A few of them are ex Marines, and at least two (the Bundies) are ranchers. They are not some survivalist extraordinaires but they are not exactly some yuppies out of Brooklyn. I can carry a weeks worth of fuel and food to live comfortably while backpacking for a week in the winter, I am not sure why you guys think they are on the cusp of cannibalism or something. I bet if the really wanted to they could stay up there for a couple months at least. If they just loaded up one of their pickups at the local stop and shop before heading up there they could easily have rations for half a year. The reports I have seen say there is only 20 odd of them.

[Lonestar]

I can carry a weeks worth of fuel and food to live comfortably while backpacking for a week in the winter, I am not sure why you guys think they are on the cusp of cannibalism or something.

Probably because these rocket surgeons are already Taking to Facebook asking for supplies. Guess they ran out of S'more Schnapps.

The reports I have seen say there is only 20 odd of them.

Yeah, I've read it's more like 12 or 13. The title of the thread should really be changed.