Ep7 Reviews (Spoilers)

[Kojiro]

No, I understand, its just the kind of nerd nitpick that we indulge in as nerds, not an actual story telling flaw. If a story telling flaw revolves around inventing new weapons we've never seen before, its really not a big deal. It's like asking "what's the point of Jedi if I can just make a super battle assassin droid with forty shotguns for arms to kill them".

To me it's particularly egregious because we've seen twice prior to this that shielding has been in issue in SW movies. If such missiles existed, surely they'd be employed to destroy shields like we see on Hoth? Or they'd be the perfect weapon to smash a bunker shielding a battlestation orbiting a forest moon?

[biostem]

Edit: Regarding pathetic vaillains, I have forgotten the Stormtrooper-general with the chrome armor. You can just point a weapon at her, then she does everything you want. She should have said 'kill me if you want, but I won't lower the shield'. But of course she had to me as lousy a villain as the rest of the gang, so at least this is consistent.

What's really funny about that is how the media made such a big fuss over her as an advancement for female characters in the series, and how she's blazing a trail for...

What, exactly?

Being a villain with maybe a couple more lines and a minute more screen time than the officer in charge of Princess Leia's cell block in ANH? And one who is even more inept than any one of Pinky's henchmen?

Yeah Captian Phasma was a pretty whack ass character. I don't know why they hyped her up so much for? But if Finn is a result of being Shanghaied at birth and brainwashed into becoming a FO bad ass soldier, then I guess the way Captain Phasma turned out shouldn't be too much of a surprise.

At least in RotJ, they had to use a disguise to get the garrison commander to open the bunker door, then drop the shields themselves... Phasma sure rolled over quickly when it came to basically opening the door for her organization's defeat...

[Andy Wylde]

What's really funny about that is how the media made such a big fuss over her as an advancement for female characters in the series, and how she's blazing a trail for...

What, exactly?

Being a villain with maybe a couple more lines and a minute more screen time than the officer in charge of Princess Leia's cell block in ANH? And one who is even more inept than any one of Pinky's henchmen?

Yeah Captian Phasma was a pretty whack ass character. I don't know why they hyped her up so much for? But if Finn is a result of being Shanghaied at birth and brainwashed into becoming a FO bad ass soldier, then I guess the way Captain Phasma turned out shouldn't be too much of a surprise.

At least in RotJ, they had to use a disguise to get the garrison commander to open the bunker door, then drop the shields themselves... Phasma sure rolled over quickly when it came to basically opening the door for her organization's defeat...

Yeah that is a good point. I mean the storm trooper that fought Finn in the middle of the film was better than her. It would have been better if she battled Finn instead. Even if she lost, she went out a lot better than putting her in the trash! So now she committed treason and that led to the Resistance gaining access by fighters to destroy the base. If she survived I doubt the FO would have any need for her

[Vympel]

To me it's particularly egregious because we've seen twice prior to this that shielding has been in issue in SW movies. If such missiles existed, surely they'd be employed to destroy shields like we see on Hoth? Or they'd be the perfect weapon to smash a bunker shielding a battlestation orbiting a forest moon?

Its pretty obvious that Starkiller Base's fractional refresh shield was just made up to allow them to get on the planet unmolested, but we see shields get bypassed all the time in SW movies. The rebels got through the Death Star's shield in the first movie, the Imperial ground forces walked through/ under the Hoth shield in the second movie, etc. Why didn't the Imperial ground force just fire off a cruise missile when they got under the Hoth shield and blow it up? You can make up 'but why didn't they' stuff until the cows come home. The answer is 'because then the movie would be over'. Its really not that big a deal.

[Elfdart]

Darth Vader is supposed to be likable?

Anakin Skywalker is supposed to be likable, yeah. That's what's supposed to make his fall to the dark side a tragedy. If you think the prequels were the story about "unlikable douchebag falls to the dark side" then are you surprised that they are widely disliked?

What did Obi-Wan say about Anakin in Episode 4?

He was a cunning warrior. And he was a good friend. Nevermind that the prequels never effectively show the latter. The half-hearted banter between Anakin and Obi-Wan about past adventures we've never seen (happens in both Episode 2 and 3) is washed away by Anakin being ill-tempered and entitled when we actually see him interact with Obi-Wan.

Define "widely disliked".

You mean like when Anakin risks his life to try to save Obi-Wan repeatedly? What more do you want, non-stop sobbing and hugging after each save? They're Jedi Knights, not hobbits.


Obi-Wan, being a good person and all, has a more forgiving tone about his former friend than Anakin has for him. Oh the horror!

As for Anakin being a douchebag -no shit Sherlock! He's like any number of Greek heroes: virgin birth, superpowers, prophesies about him, etc. It also means he's an arrogant asshole just waiting to be done in by his own hubris. You must also think the stories of Heracles, Jason, Achilles, Bellerophon, et al fail as tragic tales.

This one did, but internet neckbeards are not exactly well known for picking up on camp:

Yeah dude, I'm sure George Lucas intended his cosmic love story that forms Anakin's core motivation for his fall to be an object of mockery. Compare to TESB, when Han and Leia are kissing and C-3P0 comically interrupts them. One is funny and still sells the romance. The other is just bad romance.

He intended the movie to be campy and corny ("If it's a popcorn movie, it needs a lot of corn"), and anyone who didn't catch on to that when the music stopped is beyond help. Or do you think everyone from the actors to the editors to the composer were somehow in on a joke that George Lucas himself wasn't privy to?

You guys remind me of Drax from Guardians of the Galaxy, when told something went over his head. I'll bet you also whine because the Adam West Batman wasn't "dark" or "serious".

If every piece of shitty romance in AotC was meant to be funny, then surely no one in all cinema picked up on it. Frankly, this argument is simply not credible. A key part of Anakin's fall was his love for Padme, and you're saying that the scenes where the film was trying to convey that love were actually meant to be an object of fun?

I take it you've never watched a John Ford movie. Watch The Searchers sometime -not only because it was a major influence on Star Wars, but because it's a great movie in its own right. The romance between Martin Pauley and Laurie Jorgensen is corny and cringeworthy, complete with overacting and vapid dialogue -though it takes a much more serious turn toward the end. Is that because Ford didn't know what he was doing (and needed Gary Kurtz or Marcia Lucas to "filter" his vision)? Or is it because he wanted it to be hokey as hell to offset the more sinister themes in the movie?

I'm inclined to think it's the latter. The same applies to the Prequels.

[Vympel]

Define "widely disliked".

As in not looked upon favorably by either film critics or popular culture generally. The level of reverence for the original trilogy doesn't exist for the prequel trilogy.

You mean like when Anakin risks his life to try to save Obi-Wan repeatedly? What more do you want, non-stop sobbing and hugging after each save? They're Jedi Knights, not hobbits.

False dilemma much? Simply saving someone's life doesn't sell a friendship, I'm sorry. Well written interactions and small moments do.

Obi-Wan, being a good person and all, has a more forgiving tone about his former friend than Anakin has for him. Oh the horror!

When I saw Obi-Wan talk about how Anakin was a good friend, I would've appreciated seeing that, as opposed to having to retcon it in my mind to Anakin being a dick and Obi-Wan having a 'forgiving tone'.

As for Anakin being a douchebag -no shit Sherlock! He's like any number of Greek heroes: virgin birth, superpowers, prophesies about him, etc. It also means he's an arrogant asshole just waiting to be done in by his own hubris. You must also think the stories of Heracles, Jason, Achilles, Bellerophon, et al fail as tragic tales.

That may have been the intent. Too bad, that intent made for a shitty story in this case. This isn't a Greek myth, its a movie. Fuck, Wolfgang Petersen's Troy had Achilles as more likeable than Anakin.

He intended the movie to be campy and corny ("If it's a popcorn movie, it needs a lot of corn"), and anyone who didn't catch on to that when the music stopped is beyond help. Or do you think everyone from the actors to the editors to the composer were somehow in on a joke that George Lucas himself wasn't privy to?

Its just not funny. If it was intended to be, it failed. It was just awkward. There's nothing inherent in anything the actors, editors or music that lends itself towards 'you are meant to laugh at this scene'. Of course John Williams is going to cut off 'Across the Stars' and move to a more contemplative track, it wouldn't make such sense to keep going given they just stopped kissing.

I take it you've never watched a John Ford movie. Watch The Searchers sometime -not only because it was a major influence on Star Wars, but because it's a great movie in its own right. The romance between Martin Pauley and Laurie Jorgensen is corny and cringeworthy, complete with overacting and vapid dialogue -though it takes a much more serious turn toward the end. Is that because Ford didn't know what he was doing (and needed Gary Kurtz or Marcia Lucas to "filter" his vision)? Or is it because he wanted it to be hokey as hell to offset the more sinister themes in the movie?

I'm inclined to think it's the latter. The same applies to the Prequels.

I haven't seen it - but irrespective of what influenced George's vision, the outcome was still bad. No one is ever going to reference Anakin and Padme's romance in AotC as being some great romance. If it worked in the Searchers, I'd wager its because it was done better.

[Mange]

Actually, Han didn't die in Arndt's draft, but reunited with Leia at the end of the movie. Abrams changed that (the reason being similar to why Obi-Wan was killed off in ANH).

Oh god can Abrams just shove off already? For me the big three are the reasons I watch the movies.

You don't think Ford had a little something to do with that decision? Do you seriously think he would have returned for Episode VIII?

I doubt Arndt could've written drafts with Solo surviving after Ford had signed on if killing him off had been a requirement.

[Channel72]

Obi-Wan, being a good person and all, has a more forgiving tone about his former friend than Anakin has for him. Oh the horror!

When I saw Obi-Wan talk about how Anakin was a good friend, I would've appreciated seeing that, as opposed to having to retcon it in my mind to Anakin being a dick and Obi-Wan having a 'forgiving tone'.

Yeah - this was another major problem. Anakin and Obi-Wan don't even come off as really good friends - certainly not the way Han/Luke/Leia did. Whether this is due to the overall requirement that all Jedi act stiff, bad chemistry between McGregor/Christiansen, or a plot that just utterly fails to show these two as anything more than tolerating each other... the "friendship" just isn't manifested.

I mean, it's clear Lucas wanted Obi Wan and Anakin to be good friends - when Obi Wan finally defeats Anakin at Mustafar, he emotionally breaks down and says something like "You were like a brother to me!" This could have been an immensely powerful moment. Except I just don't buy that Anakin was ever "like a brother". Obi Wan should have - "You were mildly tolerable to me at best! *sob*"

The supposed Anakin/Obi-Wan friendship is also harmed by the general plot/pacing of the Prequels - there was just never really any time for any friendship building scenes, because most of the Prequels were caught up showing other irrelevant shit. Adult Anakin only appears in Episode 2 (another reason why Episode 1 was an utterly superfluous waste of time), and in that entire movie he's mostly separated from Obi Wan. The brief time they're together, Anakin acts like a rebellious shithead. Then, in Episode 3, during the opening battle, Obi Wan and Anakin finally have some friendly banter - but it basically comes off as a hurried attempt to actually build up their friendship since we're getting close to the end of the saga already. The friendship needed to be built up naturally over the course of the trilogy, as the two went on adventures together - not just hurriedly portrayed by having Obi Wan and Anakin all of a sudden like each other (or at least, seemingly tolerate each other) at the beginning of RoTS.

[Patroklos]

Honestly, they should have been brother cops in EPII, and matured into something like battle brothers in EPIII after a year of war. If only there were movies that used these concepts that Lucas could have taken inspiration from.

[Lord Revan]

something that came to me when I was reading some older threads I had posted on (post EP-7 ones that is). Is Kylo Ren really that bad morally that is and if so is it the fault of his parents and Luke.

I mean most dark siders we know the motivations of have some sort of rationalization for the use the Dark Side at least a the beginning. Palpatine and Dooku saw it as means to end impose peace and order (on their terms obviously but still), Vader wanted a way to stop the loss of those he cared about, Ventress was after revenge, even Darth Maul seemed have some sort motivation. Kylo Ren seems to only one without a clear motivation as why he would use the Dark Side, that could easily explain the "pull of the Light Side" that's not been mentioned before, because Kylo Ren is trying to force himself (pun intented) to embrace the Dark Side without any rationalization there's voice at the back of his head saying "hey Ben WTF are you doing?! This isn't right and you know it!".

the code of the Sith (IIRC) was "There is no serenity, only passion, thru passion I gain strength, thru strenght I gain victory, thru victory my chains are broken, the Force shall set me free". Again Kylo Ren sees only sees the power of the Dark Side Masters but not the path.

[BabelHuber]

I try and be even handed.

I cannot tell you how grateful I am.

No, I understand, its just the kind of nerd nitpick that we indulge in as nerds, not an actual story telling flaw. If a story telling flaw revolves around inventing new weapons we've never seen before, its really not a big deal.

If the story is part of a bigger universe, it has to be consistent to be attractive, at least for me. In Ep 1-6, one understands why there is a Death Star. In Ep 7, I need to wonder why they built it in the first place, since it doesn't make sense anymore.

It's like asking "what's the point of Jedi if I can just make a super battle assassin droid with forty shotguns for arms to kill them".

In Ep 2 we see that battle droids can overwhelm Jedis, but this doesn't make Jedis superfluous. A droid cannot read minds, look into the future etc.

Jumping through erected shields on the other hand is dumb.

Of course she does. She doesn't have anywhere near the abilities that Kylo Ren has. She's learnt intuitively by example so far, and was helped along by fighting a grievously wounded, tired Kylo Ren.

Kylo Ren has abilities? The guy who looked at Fin after he disobeyed an oder and didn't do jack shit? The guy who couldn't overwhelm Fin with a lightsaber? As i already said, the cinema laughed when he offered to train Rey.

Rey is too strong to be believable and Kylo Ren is too weak to count as a real SW villain. Of course this is just my opinion, but this is how I see it.

Yeah, how bullshit was it that Obi-Wan and Yoda just sat around for 20 years doing fuck all, right?

And this gets better by repeating it, just in a worse way? Oh Look, Luke saved the galaxy from the Empire and the Sith, but then he walked away when the some pocket-version of a Sith tried to retake it!

Darth Maul was a walking dual-bladed lightsabre. Nothing more. A thoroughly uninteresting villain. Kylo Ren showed more determination and skill stopping Poe Dameron's blaster bolt in mid-air than Darth Maul did for an entire movie.

Darth Maul was trained by Darth Sidious to kill Jedis. This is what he did/ tried, with a vengeance. He was competent and ruthless, not some spoiled brat.

He was a stiff who did nothing. A villain, you say? What did he do that was villainous, exactly? I can't think of a single damn thing.

Dooku executed the orders of Darth Sidious in a seemingly competent way, commanded the separatists, took Obi Wan as prisoner, defeated Obi Wan and Anakin in a ligthtsaber duel and managed to escape from Yoda.

Could Kylo Ren match anything of this?

LOL, please. He was just another walking spinning-lightsabre gimmick. An entirely non-threatening, pathetic figure who was intentionally written as constantly running away from a fight.

Oh please! Grievous was a general, not a Sith. And the republic viewed him as the primary threat to the republic after Dooku's death. He may have been running away from Obi Wan, but if he'd fought Kylo Ren things would have looked differently.

Its not the same old story at all. There are significant differences apparent already. It merely follows the same beats as the original film, which is in and of itself, not an entirely original movie, and which were aped (to far lesser effect) in Phantom Menace.

Small rebel group destroys galaxy-threatening superweapon of a totalitarian regime which is lead by a Sith lord and his apprentice. Sure, looks completely different from ANH.

Edit: Typo fixed.

[The Romulan Republic]

something that came to me when I was reading some older threads I had posted on (post EP-7 ones that is). Is Kylo Ren really that bad morally that is and if so is it the fault of his parents and Luke.

I mean most dark siders we know the motivations of have some sort of rationalization for the use the Dark Side at least a the beginning. Palpatine and Dooku saw it as means to end impose peace and order (on their terms obviously but still), Vader wanted a way to stop the loss of those he cared about, Ventress was after revenge, even Darth Maul seemed have some sort motivation. Kylo Ren seems to only one without a clear motivation as why he would use the Dark Side, that could easily explain the "pull of the Light Side" that's not been mentioned before, because Kylo Ren is trying to force himself (pun intented) to embrace the Dark Side without any rationalization there's voice at the back of his head saying "hey Ben WTF are you doing?! This isn't right and you know it!".

the code of the Sith (IIRC) was "There is no serenity, only passion, thru passion I gain strength, thru strenght I gain victory, thru victory my chains are broken, the Force shall set me free". Again Kylo Ren sees only sees the power of the Dark Side Masters but not the path.

If anything, that makes Kylo Ren a worse person. He has no higher purpose to what he's doing. Its petty. And if he knows its wrong it doesn't change that. It just makes him more despicable, because he knows he's the bad guy and chooses to be.

[BabelHuber]

Its pretty obvious that Starkiller Base's fractional refresh shield was just made up to allow them to get on the planet unmolested, but we see shields get bypassed all the time in SW movies.

Let's see...

The rebels got through the Death Star's shield in the first movie

It was stated during the rebel's briefing that the Death Star's defenses could be bypassed by a small fighter, because the Death Star was not designed to fight them. Reason: The empire thought a small fighter is no threat.

This is why the rebels attacked the Death Start only with fighters in ANH.

In TFA, they attacked Stakiller Base with fighers only because? Don't the rebels have some bigger ships, like in ROJ?

the Imperial ground forces walked through/ under the Hoth shield in the second movie, etc.

Which is a consitent feature of a theatre shield, see TPM.

Why didn't the Imperial ground force just fire off a cruise missile when they got under the Hoth shield and blow it up?

They destroyed the generator from a distance of 17km (IIRC) with an AT-AT. Perhaps they didn't have a heavy armored missile vehicle at hand...

You can make up 'but why didn't they' stuff until the cows come home. The answer is 'because then the movie would be over'. Its really not that big a deal.

No, ESB wouldn't have been over if they had used a cruise missile. Luke still would have had the chance to escape to Dagobah, and Han and Leia would still be able to run away with the Falcon. We just wouldn't have the battle against the AT-ATs.

[Galvatron]

I imagine that any bombers or missiles launched at Echo Base under the shield would have been vulnerable to rebel artillery and airspeeders.

[Purple]

If anything, that makes Kylo Ren a worse person. He has no higher purpose to what he's doing. Its petty. And if he knows its wrong it doesn't change that. It just makes him more despicable, because he knows he's the bad guy and chooses to be.

Because we are not supposed to think that the resident Sith Lord is bad.

And as far as missiles go do we ever see large missiles of any kind used in the new cannon? I do not recall any.

[Galvatron]

How large do the missiles need to be? Are proton torpedoes not sufficient?

[Vympel]

It was stated during the rebel's briefing that the Death Star's defenses could be bypassed by a small fighter, because the Death Star was not designed to fight them. Reason: The empire thought a small fighter is no threat.

This is why the rebels attacked the Death Start only with fighters in ANH.

In TFA, they attacked Stakiller Base with fighers only because? Don't the rebels have some bigger ships, like in ROJ?

No, they don't. They're not the Rebel Alliance.

Which is a consitent feature of a theatre shield, see TPM.

So what? You're just saying 'its like that because its like that'. Its not an answer. And if its a consistent feature of a theatre shield, why did they have to explicitly open shields to let the ships leave, under cover of ion cannon?

They destroyed the generator from a distance of 17km (IIRC) with an AT-AT. Perhaps they didn't have a heavy armored missile vehicle at hand...

Great, just like no one has super hyperspace missiles that no one has ever heard of on hand. Job done.

No, ESB wouldn't have been over if they had used a cruise missile. Luke still would have had the chance to escape to Dagobah, and Han and Leia would still be able to run away with the Falcon. We just wouldn't have the battle against the AT-ATs.

Same difference. The technology serves the needs of the script, not the other way round. A shield with a vulnerability is neither unique nor a big deal.

If the story is part of a bigger universe, it has to be consistent to be attractive, at least for me. In Ep 1-6, one understands why there is a Death Star. In Ep 7, I need to wonder why they built it in the first place, since it doesn't make sense anymore.

Of course it makes sense. Starkiller Base for its brief existence did more for the First Order than either Death Star ever accomplished for the Empire.

In Ep 2 we see that battle droids can overwhelm Jedis, but this doesn't make Jedis superfluous. A droid cannot read minds, look into the future etc.

No, we see shitty droids, far shittier than the made up technology we've never seen before I proposed, overwhelm Jedi. My made up super droid is better. Therefore the story is flawed and the movie is ruined!

Jumping through erected shields on the other hand is dumb.

As above. Vulnerabilities are nothing new.

Kylo Ren has abilities? The guy who looked at Fin after he disobeyed an oder and didn't do jack shit? The guy who couldn't overwhelm Fin with a lightsaber? As i already said, the cinema laughed when he offered to train Rey.

Why are you assuming that Kylo Ren knew Finn didn't fire his weapon? He noted Finn standing there looking at him, nothing more. Discipline of the rank and file is the job of underlings, not Kylo Ren. Its just hilarious how incoherent and stupid these criticisms are - yeah dude, the guy who stops blaster bolts in mid-air, the guy who freezes people in place with telekinesis, the guy who can take information from people's minds at will, he 'doesn't have abilities'. Jesus Christ.

Rey is too strong to be believable and Kylo Ren is too weak to count as a real SW villain. Of course this is just my opinion, but this is how I see it.

You say Kylo Ren is 'too weak' after he is gutshot and exhausted, for fuck's sake. The film beats us over and over and over with how wounded he is and it completely escapes your notice.

And this gets better by repeating it, just in a worse way? Oh Look, Luke saved the galaxy from the Empire and the Sith, but then he walked away when the some pocket-version of a Sith tried to retake it!

How is it worse? You have no idea what Luke's motivations are.

Darth Maul was trained by Darth Sidious to kill Jedis. This is what he did/ tried, with a vengeance. He was competent and ruthless, not some spoiled brat.

He was an empty black outfit, entirely wasted.

Dooku executed the orders of Darth Sidious in a seemingly competent way, commanded the separatists, took Obi Wan as prisoner, defeated Obi Wan and Anakin in a ligthtsaber duel and managed to escape from Yoda.

I asked you what he did that was villainous. All you really doing here is listing random stuff that happened. Oh wow, he did what he was told. My spine is tingling at the villainy! He took Obi-Wan prisoner? My ass, a bunch of droidekas did that, Dooku had nothing to do with it. Defeated Obi-Wan and Anakin in a duel and escaped from Yoda? Big shit, those fights fucking sucked.

Could Kylo Ren match anything of this?

He doesn't need to. Darth Vader never got in a fight with a bad caricature of Yoda, yet only an imbecile would argue that Dooku is a better villain than Vader. You're mixing up writing a good villain and nerd 'feat' estimation.

Oh please! Grievous was a general, not a Sith. And the republic viewed him as the primary threat to the republic after Dooku's death. He may have been running away from Obi Wan, but if he'd fought Kylo Ren things would have looked differently.

Who gives a shit what he was? He was a villain. He would never fight Kylo Ren because he's a piece of shit villain that would turn any fight scene he's in into something out of a video game. If he even stayed around to fight as opposed to running away. Coughing.

Small rebel group destroys galaxy-threatening superweapon of a totalitarian regime which is lead by a Sith lord and his apprentice. Sure, looks completely different from ANH.

Edit: Typo fixed.

Way to miss the entire point of the movie - Starkiller Base is not the emphasis of the film. In the climax of the film it is used as a metaphor for both the struggle between the two groups and the personal struggles of the characters involved. That would be why the character directly involved in flying a fighter inside it was not the protagonist - the protagonist is busy duelling Ren while this is happening.

[BabelHuber]

I guess we can skip most of our points, we just disagree here and won't reach a common opinion.

I just wanted to make one thing clear:

So what? You're just saying 'its like that because its like that'. Its not an answer. And if its a consistent feature of a theatre shield, why did they have to explicitly open shields to let the ships leave, under cover of ion cannon?

It is a fucking consistent feature of theatre shields that you can walk through them, but not fly through them. That's why they had to open the shield for the transports.

I don't have any problems with made-up stuff in SW movies, as long as they create a universe which is believable and as long as they stick to the rules they fucking established themselves.

Hyper-jumping through planetary shields is inconsistent with the established canon, this is one thing which kicked me out of SoD when watching TFA. Fact is that when you can do this, you don't need moon- or planet-sized superweapons anymore.

I expect more from a SW movie than this. I also expect real villains, not tantrum-throwing brats.

You are of course free to have your own view - I'm a generous person, too.

[Purple]

How large do the missiles need to be? Are proton torpedoes not sufficient?

That's my point. The largest missile we see is the size of modern man/tank/aircraft launched weapons as opposed to stuff like ICBM's and strategic missiles and other such stuff that you would expect to be necessary for roles such as orbital bombardment or ship to ship combat.

[Channel72]

I always assumed that the reason the Empire didn't just blow up the Rebel base at Hoth was because Vader is specifically looking to capture Luke - he doesn't want to just kill him.

But I guess that still doesn't explain why the Rebels didn't just assume the Empire would obliterate their entire base from a distance.

As for the Starkiller base shield thing... yeah, it's definitely a weaker point of the movie. We basically just have to handwave it away as some kind of move that was only possible with the specific type of shields used at starkiller base. Again, the same idea (jumping out of Hyperspace in an atmosphere) was originally going to be used in Phantom Menace to provide a way for the characters to bypass the blockade upon returning to Naboo... but it didn't make the final draft for some reason. It probably made more sense in TPM, because they were bypassing a blockade, not shields.

Maybe a better idea would be to have said that the shields don't cover the entire planet - just the relevant section where all that crazy engineering was accomplished. Han could jump out of hyperspace close to the planet like a few hundred kilometers away from the shield, then take a ground vehicle to the base. I don't know, whatever... the whole thing wasn't really thought out very well. But it's not really much worse than some of the things the OT gets away with plotwise.

[Borgholio]

I always assumed that the reason the Empire didn't just blow up the Rebel base at Hoth was because Vader is specifically looking to capture Luke - he doesn't want to just kill him.

I've often wondered what Vader's original plan was. He killed Ozzel because he came out of hyperspace too close to Hoth and alerted the rebels to their presence. Vader obviously intended to sneak up on the rebels, but to what end? He'd still need to land troops to capture Luke, and it's not like the Rebels were able to do much harm even with several hours to prepare...

[ray245]

I always assumed that the reason the Empire didn't just blow up the Rebel base at Hoth was because Vader is specifically looking to capture Luke - he doesn't want to just kill him.

I've often wondered what Vader's original plan was. He killed Ozzel because he came out of hyperspace too close to Hoth and alerted the rebels to their presence. Vader obviously intended to sneak up on the rebels, but to what end? He'd still need to land troops to capture Luke, and it's not like the Rebels were able to do much harm even with several hours to prepare...

Sneak up on the Rebels and take out their shields before they could activate it? That will give the Empire troops air support and orbital bombarbment support.


Back to TFA, I think one major issue the story have yet to tell us is why did the resistance want to find Luke now? He's been gone for quite some time, so why the sudden need to find him and train more Jedi?

[Galvatron]

I always assumed that the reason the Empire didn't just blow up the Rebel base at Hoth was because Vader is specifically looking to capture Luke - he doesn't want to just kill him.

I've often wondered what Vader's original plan was. He killed Ozzel because he came out of hyperspace too close to Hoth and alerted the rebels to their presence. Vader obviously intended to sneak up on the rebels, but to what end? He'd still need to land troops to capture Luke, and it's not like the Rebels were able to do much harm even with several hours to prepare...

My guess is that a surprise attack followed by a surgical bombardment of the power generator would have prevented the rebels from raising the shield or firing the ion cannon. The Imperials could have then blockaded the planet relatively unopposed and then taken the base intact.

Back to TFA, I think one major issue the story have yet to tell us is why did the resistance want to find Luke now? He's been gone for quite some time, so why the sudden need to find him and train more Jedi?

The obvious answer is that they need someone who can fight the Knights of Ren.

[SCRawl]

I've often wondered what Vader's original plan was. He killed Ozzel because he came out of hyperspace too close to Hoth and alerted the rebels to their presence. Vader obviously intended to sneak up on the rebels, but to what end? He'd still need to land troops to capture Luke, and it's not like the Rebels were able to do much harm even with several hours to prepare...

If he could have landed troops without needing to disable the shield, or destroyed the transports and other ships on the ground from orbit (or using fighters), he could have prevented anyone from escaping. Perhaps Ozzel's choice of tactics gave the Rebels enough time to warm up the theatre shield, which a more astute manoeuvre would not have afforded them that opportunity.

[The Romulan Republic]

I always assumed that the reason the Empire didn't just blow up the Rebel base at Hoth was because Vader is specifically looking to capture Luke - he doesn't want to just kill him.

I've often wondered what Vader's original plan was. He killed Ozzel because he came out of hyperspace too close to Hoth and alerted the rebels to their presence. Vader obviously intended to sneak up on the rebels, but to what end? He'd still need to land troops to capture Luke, and it's not like the Rebels were able to do much harm even with several hours to prepare...

My guess is that a surprise attack followed by a surgical bombardment of the power generator would have prevented the rebels from raising the shield or firing the ion cannon. The Imperials could have then blockaded the planet relatively unopposed and then taken the base intact.

Back to TFA, I think one major issue the story have yet to tell us is why did the resistance want to find Luke now? He's been gone for quite some time, so why the sudden need to find him and train more Jedi?

The obvious answer is that they need someone who can fight the Knights of Ren.

Luke is possibly the most powerful Force user in existence, and the Resistance needs all the help it can get.

What I wonder is why Luke didn't simply kick Kylo and Snoke's asses way back. I could see him not being willing to kill Kylo, given his refusal to kill Vader, and may have felt he couldn't redeem Kylo in the same way. But he could probably still have captured him and handed him over to the Republic. And why not take out Snoke? Unless Snoke is actually more powerful, but I'd have a hard time buying that.

Or maybe Snoke is hidden away somewhere Luke can't get to him.