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^ Yes, that - one of the stock replies is that it's always some other of guy doing than the speaker.Vendetta wrote:The "white woman harrassed by minorities" thing is something that (racist but won't admit it) people are bringing up as a smokescreen to say that only other guys would do this, nice (white) guys like them would never even think of it.
You know, I've actually talked to women of different cultures and backgrounds. Know what? They get harassed and followed and shit, too.ArmorPierce wrote:In not making excuses, it is there, it is what they do, and the women may not feel about it how you may expect because you are looking at it through the lens of your culture and experience.
http://qz.com/289449/women-of-color-are ... you-think/I’m not the only one who noticed the strange racial dynamics in the video. At Slate, Hanna Rosin reports that the video’s production company admits to having edited out most of the white men who also catcalled the PSA’s star, Shoshana Roberts. Acclaimed feminist writer Roxane Gay tweeted that the video’s “racial politics are fucked up.” Also on Twitter, New Inquiry editor-in-chief Ayesha Siddiqi made a series of comments that criticized the way the video plays on race, gender and class, noting the way it seemed to let “white men in suits” off the hook for their everyday sexism. The gist of these arguments? Showing a highly edited video of a white woman being harassed by men of color drew attention to much more than modern-day street harassment.
The logical extension of your argument, here, would be to say that none of us can criticize, say, female genital mutilation of the sort that is practiced in many cultures just because the women of that culture will have different opinions on their own culture's gender rights than the rest of us? We view harassment as bad in and of itself, independent of any single women's reactions or beliefs about it. Even within white people or Dominicans whoever, you will have a spectrum of women with different tolerances of it. It's irrational to say that just because beliefs are heterogeneous across a society that we shouldn't make effort to prevent negative behavior, like catcalling and other harassment. And, guess what? All the statistics I can find seem to indicate that most women don't like it, and that there were few differences between the races in how they responded to it. Shocking!ArmorPierce wrote: what was your point again? Yes of course minority women have rights. Does not mean that they will hold the same opinion as you or support this video's agenda and depiction of their race.
Whether they like the video is a relatively trivial matter.ArmorPierce wrote:The point of me bringing it up is to point out that you're viewing the situation through the lens of your experience, background and culture and jumping to the conclusion that minority women feel the same way as you would expect them to and thus needs to be saved.
what was your point again? Yes of course minority women have rights. Does not mean that they will hold the same opinion as you or support this video's agenda and depiction of their race.
please see article below, there had a great deal of anger expressed over this video in the minority community.
In response to this, I'll repeat my earlier question. The makers of the video proposes the introduction of legislation that will punish those who make comments such as 'good morning, have a nice day' (which the video identifies as a selection of harassment) in public. Are you in favor of this? I will remind you once again, I am against this video and it's appeal to exploitation of fears of minorities and the proposed legislation. This video is no better than the youtube 'in the hood' prank videos.Simon_Jester wrote:Whether they like the video is a relatively trivial matter.ArmorPierce wrote:The point of me bringing it up is to point out that you're viewing the situation through the lens of your experience, background and culture and jumping to the conclusion that minority women feel the same way as you would expect them to and thus needs to be saved.
what was your point again? Yes of course minority women have rights. Does not mean that they will hold the same opinion as you or support this video's agenda and depiction of their race.
please see article below, there had a great deal of anger expressed over this video in the minority community.
Whether there is an actual problem with catcalling, stalking, and sexual harassment on the streets of our cities is more relevant.
You present a very valid point. One needs to strike a balance between the two. There are obvious instances where you throw out tolerance for cultural differences and then less so for behaviors and actions that are obviously power grabs or have permanent physical effects.Ziggy Stardust wrote:The logical extension of your argument, here, would be to say that none of us can criticize, say, female genital mutilation of the sort that is practiced in many cultures just because the women of that culture will have different opinions on their own culture's gender rights than the rest of us? We view harassment as bad in and of itself, independent of any single women's reactions or beliefs about it. Even within white people or Dominicans whoever, you will have a spectrum of women with different tolerances of it. It's irrational to say that just because beliefs are heterogeneous across a society that we shouldn't make effort to prevent negative behavior, like catcalling and other harassment. And, guess what? All the statistics I can find seem to indicate that most women don't like it, and that there were few differences between the races in how they responded to it. Shocking!ArmorPierce wrote: what was your point again? Yes of course minority women have rights. Does not mean that they will hold the same opinion as you or support this video's agenda and depiction of their race.
Not to mention that waving your hand and saying (without evidence) that Dominican women are more satisfied with men of their background than white people doesn't actually say anything about their opinions on catcalling. I shouldn't have to explain that asking someone whether they are satisfied with the other gender is a much broader and larger question than catcalling specifically. Not that you will substantiate your claim in any way, though.
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/s ... clnk&gl=usAlthough Hollaback, an anti-harassment organization, issued an apology for their “unintentional racial bias,” I’m not quick to believe it. I believe the creators of the video used the image of the black man to get audiences to rally for the cause. Because what gets white Americans to rally for a cause more than a black man threatening a white woman’s “purity” and “femininity”?
Broomstick wrote: It's not a racial problem.
It's not a cultural problem.
It's a gender problem.
I'm not tired of discussions, but I'm tired of quick accusations of being racist.Metahive wrote:Why? I mean you sought to engage in a debate about it on your own volition now, did you?
If you have a region where some parts of the population have medieval beliefs, like that women are second-class citicens, then stating this is perfectly valid and has nothing to do with racism.Because you both tar an entire religion and an entire area with a very broad brush based on nothing but popular stereotypes.
Sorry, but this doesn't fit to my experiences. I'm an IT consultant, in 2015 I have been in the USA, Poland and France for an international project and never ever has anybody shown such a behaviour.I mean, as a German you do know that Germans themselves are often target of exactly this kind of ignorant prejudice, right? I mean, fuck, I get the same "look, a German, he must be a humourless authoritarian Nazi guy"-spiel when I tell people I'm from there and I don't even look German.
The problem is that even in these secular dictatorships, you had some areas, especially rural ones, where such medieval believs are not uncommon. (just look at the rapes at the Tahir place in Egypt, people who do such things need a certain mindset).Serious question, what do you know about Syria and Iraq? What was the situation of women in both countries before the recent crises? What kind of rights and limitations did they have? If you want to make definitive statements like that about them, I expect some work to have been put behind it. Syria was and actually still is a secular authoritarian dictatorship. Iraq was likewise before Bush Jr. fucked the country up. Both countries weren't actually all that deeply steeped in religious "piety" before they become conflict zones. I shall also remind you that it's ISIS that wants to install a fanatical Islamic regime in both countries and that the refugees coming here are running away from that very prospect!
50 years ago some morons in the US thought that a catholic US president is impossible. So what? Does this mean that I'm not allowowed to criticise the medieval beliefs of some utter morons in 2015?In the 1960s, when Kennedy was aiming for the US presidency, a popular attack against him was that as a Catholic, he was unqualified to lead the US since all Catholics pledge allegiance to the Pope and he would thereore be compromised as a leader of the country. These people were ignorantly tarring an entire religious community with a very broad brush based on nothing but popular stereotypes, exactly like you're doing now. You don't know how women fared in Syria or Iraq, you don't know how people were or are educated there and yet you think you can render judgement on those people simply because you buy into the bigotted narrative concerning them.
I have never accused all people living in a region as a whole, if you don't know the difference between this and my statements, you are beyond hope.I shudder whenever I meet an American here in Germany, because of course they must bring their whole gun-craziness, religious fundamentalism, litigousness and violent self-righteousness with them. O wait, that was me being like you and indulging in bigotted stereotyping, my bad.
So, when my black neighbors or coworkers tell me about being harassed on the streets where they live, or at the mall, or the grocery store, or in the parking lot where we work I should disbelieve them because you have a survey that Dominican women are happy, gotcha. Once again, studies trump the actual experience of women, we must all be deluded about our actual life experiences, silly little women.ArmorPierce wrote:I also take issue with white people feeling that minority women must feel that they support the same actions and beliefs held against their brothers father's and sons. We I communicated before as am example, Dominican women for example, despite being faced with a much more pluralistic gender culture, report in surveys that they are far more satisfied with their men than American women.
Oh, look - you can cherry pick to support your position, too! Isn't that what you accused the video makers of doing?ArmorPierce wrote:please see article below, there had a great deal of anger expressed over this video in the minority community.
Misogyny is endemic in the west, too. I'm not interested, in this thread, about getting bogged down in the degrees of misogyny. Saying "but it's worse over there" is not an excuse for bad behavior here.wautd wrote:Sure it can be. While the western world still isn't perfect, its a helluva lot worse in patriarchal societies. Sure, there are Egyptian men who treat women decently, but that doesn't prevent that misogyny is endemic there.
I doubt anyone is denying this. I do not think this changes the fact that such mass sexual assault was something extremely uncommon and this incident was not committed by any westerner. There's degree of difference in regards to misogyny in the western world and the non-western world. Misogynistic attitudes can be shown in different forms.Broomstick wrote:Misogyny is endemic in the west, too. I'm not interested, in this thread, about getting bogged down in the degrees of misogyny. Saying "but it's worse over there" is not an excuse for bad behavior here.wautd wrote:Sure it can be. While the western world still isn't perfect, it's a helluva lot worse in patriarchal societies. Sure, there are Egyptian men who treat women decently, but that doesn't prevent that misogyny is endemic there.
Doesn't matter. The fact that such kind of actions are committed by ethnic minorities and immigrants from the Middle-East/Arab is the pressing concern here. To commit an illegal act so publicly (be it actual sexual assaults or distraction robberies) reinforce the perception that there are a considerable amount of people coming from those regions that would have severe problems fitting into a western society.madd0ct0r wrote:And yet we don't even know wether it was sexual attacks or distraction robberies. Not that that is stopping either side in this thread from arguing complete irrelevancies.
To be fair, the assaults happened on a wider geography than expected. Perhaps after a more thorough investigation, similar events, though on a lesser scale, may be discovered in other cities, too. And not only in Germany, although as the biggest recipient it sure is more likely that immigrant criminal gangs would form and operate in Germany simply due to the much larger recruitment pool.Simon_Jester wrote:On the other hand, it also sounds like this is coming from the actions of a specific criminal gang formed among the migrants, and perhaps one that didn't even exist until recently. It's spread across more territory than I'd thought, but it's still a thing concentrated to a few cities, not spread out across all of Germany or all of Europe.
