Anyone else think Section 31's Dominion plan was bad?

[Q99]

Ok, so Section 31 had the brilliant plan of introducing a virus to the Founders before/during the Dominion war, to try and eliminate them as a threat. Under the logic of, hey, expansionist evil going-to-invade/invading us empire.

Simple enough there, right? Now obviously there's the moral arguments of the method (especially considering they technically introduced the virus pre war), but there's problems with it.

Namely, the Founders don't handle the day to day running of the Dominion, the Vorta do. The genetically engineered for loyalty species.

Now obviously in canon, the Federation cured them, but if they didn't, it seems like there's two paths things could take.

One, the Dominion manages to cure it on their own. Now you have a species of shapeshifters who feel their beliefs about Solids is all the more justified, with even the nicies of the Federation trying to eliminate them. The Dominion as a whole is going to remember and hold a grudge, more sure of their path than ever.

Two, the Founders die. The Founder's death will not immediately cause a collapse, or even noticeable effect, of the running of the Dominion, because they don't do that to begin with, the species who are made to view them as gods do. And now they'll have no-one who can tell them to stop or change their orders. If the Founders- their gods- give them as final orders, the directive to wipe out the Federation, they will pursue that goal come hell or high water, even potentially very self-destructively, and won't stop no matter what it takes. Minus some of their smartest leaders, but still.

Now, maybe after a few generations, with no actual Founders around, the indoctrination would fade and Vorta would start taking their own path, but it seems to me what you have in the Dominion sans Founders is now a foe that isn't merely hard to negotiate with, but who absolutely won't stray from their course even unto death.

Three, they could hold the cure hostage, and offer to release it upon peace... but that'd be a deal under duress that they'd have no way to enforce once they provided the cure. The Dominion agrees, they get the cure, and then they can go back to war immediately without the same worry (since Section 31 being able to introduce another, entirely different virus, with no Odo as an unknowing mule, seems unlikely) or at least plot for the next war, or the Dominion agrees, doesn't get the cure, gives final revenge order, see scenario 2, or the Dominion doesn't agree, see scenario 1 or 2.


Wiping out the Founders is ruthless, and certainly sends a message, but succeed or fail, it seems like it's no solution to end the war to me.

[Darth Tanner]

Agreed assuming the Dominion survive the extinction of the Founders, with them gone the ability of the Votra to maintain control is solely based on the supply of white, if the Jemhadar can seize that or atleast seize enough supplies to last a few months then civil war and general mayhem could lead to the Dominion imploading as Vorta get genocided by the Jemhadar. another aspect is that the Jemhadar are prone to mass suicide if they know the Founders are dead.

Another aspect is that if the plague plan was implemeneted or atleast committed to prior to the Dominion fleet being invited into Cardassia then holding the hoardes at the wormhole becomes much more manageable with the Dominion losing its leadership Gods and being left in a more chaotic state.

The plague also to some extent prevented the founders utilising their subtefuge advantage to its full extent as it stops the infected founders from being able to be the perfect spies and undermine the Alpha powers from within. Without the plague what schemes could they have come up with when they were readily replacing high ranking Klingon and Federation officers when unhindered?

[Q99]

Agreed assuming the Dominion survive the extinction of the Founders, with them gone the ability of the Votra to maintain control is solely based on the supply of white, if the Jemhadar can seize that or atleast seize enough supplies to last a few months then civil war and general mayhem could lead to the Dominion imploading as Vorta get genocided by the Jemhadar. another aspect is that the Jemhadar are prone to mass suicide if they know the Founders are dead.

Mass suicide attacks against the Founder's killers...

And while Jemhadar rebellion is more possible now, there's still not a lot to set one off.

Another aspect is that if the plague plan was implemeneted or atleast committed to prior to the Dominion fleet being invited into Cardassia then holding the hoardes at the wormhole becomes much more manageable with the Dominion losing its leadership Gods and being left in a more chaotic state.

Good point, if they were on the other side of the wormhole than holding out until the Vorta control splinters makes sense. Once Cardassia joined, that threw a big wrench in the plan.

The plague also to some extent prevented the founders utilising their subtefuge advantage to its full extent as it stops the infected founders from being able to be the perfect spies and undermine the Alpha powers from within. Without the plague what schemes could they have come up with when they were readily replacing high ranking Klingon and Federation officers when unhindered?

Right, it does stop the spy games, but that's fairly secondary to the military threat.


Now, if you wanted to do a plague, it strikes me the Vorta would be the better target... if probably easier to cure. They're the ones who actually run the Dominion, after all. They have command of the ships and handle all the day to day work. Founders just give commands from on high.

Or if a bioweapon could target White, that'd be great, and more directly military.

[Tribble]

Ethics aside, what the plan was missing was the closure / destruction of the wormhole. IIRC the wormhole could be destroyed fairly easily until Sisko tried to do so without hurting the Prophets, Changling Bashir sabotaged the attempt and the wormhole was made permanently stable.

Founders killed off, wormhole destroyed, Dominion eventually falls apart, problem solved.

The only loose end would be Odo. Although communications with the GQ would be cut off, it still wouldn't look good if it was someone figured out what was going on. killing him would draw too much attention, which is why they apparently designed the virus so that he would only act as a carrier. I suppose they could close the wormhole behind him when he goes on trial, but that would mean losing the Defiant, plus it might look suspicious. They wouldn't know beforehand that Odo was going to be turned into a solid, and that his subsequent merger with the baby changeling and regaining of his powers would activate the virus... Maybe they should have just kept a close eye on him and secretly administered the cure when he regained his abilities, just to be safe. That way there wouldn't be any chance of him showing symptoms.

[FaxModem1]

The big problem with making some sort of virus to take out the Vorta, or the Jem'Hadar, is that the Founders are rather blase about who lives and who dies. If there was a virus affecting any of the Vorta, or Jem' Hadar, the Founders would quickly have all affected commit suicide, and just use non-infected cloning centers. That might hurt the Dominion, for a month. After that, the Dominion would be wise to the trick and would probably put safeguards into their cloning facilities to ensure that doesn't happen.

The Dominion, whether it is quick or slow, is a snake, with the Founders being the snake's head. The only way to kill the Dominion is to kill the Founders.

[biostem]

I kind of wonder how things would have played out if Section 31 instead focused its efforts on either better weapons for the Federation, or clandestine missions to destroy some aspects of the Dominion's fragile supply lines, (contaminate large caches of ketracel white, destroy jem'hadar cloning facilities, disrupt or falsify orders sent to the vorta, etc).

[mr friendly guy]

1. Is there any evidence that the Founders realise the virus was created by Solids? If not who are they going to take revenge on? For all we know, they felt it was a natural virus. And even if they suspected, why would they think the Federation as opposed to say the Romulans. When I think of biological weapons in the Trekverse, my money would be on the Romulans or Cardassians to develop it, not the Federation. Which is why section 31's actions were all the more shocking.

Heck, given how section 31 plays, they could potentially manufacture evidence that it was created by the Romulans or <insert enemy here> and fool the whole AQ and let the Dominion waste its remaining resources on some other power.

2. The purpose of the Dominion is to protect the Founders from Solids. No Founders, what are the Vorta going to do? Presumably find a new purpose, none of which would be protecting non existent Founders. Sure you could argue their new purpose could turn out to be even more sinister, but its less likely. Moreover see point one. How would the Vorta know to take revenge on the Federation in the first place? Why would they not fracture into several groups without the Founders holding things together.

3. It was well known that there was a Founder on Cardassia, so her death would not exactly be hidden. From canon, Jem'hadar commit suicide after they had failed their Founders. That being said, the alliance would have fought the Dominion fleet at Cardassia before the Founder died. While it was stated by Kira that "she didn't look good,", there is no way the alliance will know when exactly she was going to die. Of course it might have made a better story if someone just killed the Founder and broadcast that she had died from the virus.

The other option is the Founder could order the Dominion in the AQ to fight to the last, which won't change the earlier point I made, that the alliance would have to destroy the Dominion fleet. However if the Founder was dead, the Breen could be convinced perhaps to retreat in exchange for not participating in the final battle.

Assuming the Dominion fail to cure the virus, my take on things is that
a. In the AQ the alliance has to fight the final battle over Cardassia with lots of losses of ships. If they were less moralistic, just destroy the Ketracel white facilities in orbit, and let the Cardassians fight it out on the surface and spare their own marines. After all, the Cardassians (and to some extent the Klingons) started the war and this would weaken them so that they would not rise for a looong time. It would be ridiculously cost, but perhaps the Breen could be convinced to turn against the Dominion.

b. However things look better in the GQ. The Dominion dies and then splinters because without the Founders to hold things together, the Vorta each have different ideas. Not that it makes a damn difference since the Prophets have blocked the wormhole anyway. It won't be until Voyager returns with the inkling of quantum slipstream technology and the UFP starts developing transwarp capabilities, until Starfleet can explore the GQ.

[Darth Tanner]

Mass suicide attacks against the Founder's killers...

The one reaction to the death of a founder we see from the JemHadar is their own suicide, even when the Federation crew that were in large part responsible for its death were right in front of them they still chose suicide rather than an all out attack. As also mentioned they have no idea the disease is indeed a bioweapon from the federation or anyone else.

there's still not a lot to set one off.

Other than the complete destruction of the Dominions power structure, the actual living gods that give them their entire purpose in existence is now dead. We clearly see that the Vorta are likely to be hacked to pieces the second the Jemhadar can think of a good excuse and if their not killing themselves in ritual suicide they are going to be hacking Vorta to death.

Right, it does stop the spy games, but that's fairly secondary to the military threat.

Really, a single changeling was able to throw the Klingons into war against the Federation... imagine what could have been achieved if presumably operations had to cease from the disease... the Dominion could have ignited wars against all the different powers given time.

[Q99]

The big problem with making some sort of virus to take out the Vorta, or the Jem'Hadar, is that the Founders are rather blase about who lives and who dies. If there was a virus affecting any of the Vorta, or Jem' Hadar, the Founders would quickly have all affected commit suicide, and just use non-infected cloning centers. That might hurt the Dominion, for a month. After that, the Dominion would be wise to the trick and would probably put safeguards into their cloning facilities to ensure that doesn't happen.

The Dominion, whether it is quick or slow, is a snake, with the Founders being the snake's head. The only way to kill the Dominion is to kill the Founders.

Still, killing Vorta would severely hamper operations until they got around the problem. And the Founders' loss may eventually take it down, but if they gave the Vorta two orders, "Hide our death, get revenge at all costs," the Vorta would carry it out to the last. Remember that the Founders hide their own nature when possible, even Dominion members didn't know what they were.

And what are the odds of the Founders not ordering a spite crusade of annihilation on the Alpha Quadrant?

Long term it'd cause a collapse, but it won't stop the war, or at least there's very high odds that it won't.

[FaxModem1]

The big problem with making some sort of virus to take out the Vorta, or the Jem'Hadar, is that the Founders are rather blase about who lives and who dies. If there was a virus affecting any of the Vorta, or Jem' Hadar, the Founders would quickly have all affected commit suicide, and just use non-infected cloning centers. That might hurt the Dominion, for a month. After that, the Dominion would be wise to the trick and would probably put safeguards into their cloning facilities to ensure that doesn't happen.

The Dominion, whether it is quick or slow, is a snake, with the Founders being the snake's head. The only way to kill the Dominion is to kill the Founders.

Still, killing Vorta would severely hamper operations until they got around the problem. And the Founders' loss may eventually take it down, but if they gave the Vorta two orders, "Hide our death, get revenge at all costs," the Vorta would carry it out to the last. Remember that the Founders hide their own nature when possible, even Dominion members didn't know what they were.

And what are the odds of the Founders not ordering a spite crusade of annihilation on the Alpha Quadrant?

Long term it'd cause a collapse, but it won't stop the war, or at least there's very high odds that it won't.

There's also the problem of practicality. The Founders, unless on assignment somewhere, have one giant hub that they are always at, The Great Link. Even if Starfleet, and by extension, Section 31, don't know the location, they know that if they infect one Founder, they will eventually be infecting them all. Lucky for them, Odo came in for tests at Starfleet Medical in season 4 of DS9, a year before the Dominion made Cardassia a member, and he joined with the link at the end of the season(where they made him a Solid, which leads to the question of if he hadn't turned back into a Changeling, would he still have gotten the disease?).

The Vorta, on the other hand, do not regularly meet. Let's say you infect Weyoun as he meets with the Kai or something. Unless the virus grafts onto Jem'Hadar as carriers or something, the virus will be rather traceable in who was patient zero. So, you might wipe out Weyoun 4, who mostly talks to Jem''Hadar, and nothing really happens aside from him eventually dying. Weyoun 5 comes back smelling like daisies. And the only alternate way to do a virus with the way the Vorta procreate is to infect a cloning center, which again, will be one of many. Aside from the Great Link, nothing about the Dominion seems centralized, and redundancy seems built into their empire. So, even if you do contaminate one center, the Dominion will recover rather fast.

This also depends on Section 31 getting past the Vorta's genetically modified immunity to most toxins, poisons and other nasty stuff, as they are the face of the Dominion, and so are made to be immune to the cloak and dagger stuff other political bodies might do to them.


To answer your question, if the Founders died, the Vorta would more than likely be at a loss of what to do. They are arrogant, and they do like running things, but as Weyoun showed, his devotion to the Founders was something he was willing to pay for with his very life. A loss like that would put him and all the other Vorta into a state of depression and lack of direction.

Though, there is merit to the Founders ordering a genocide as their last act. The Female Changeling's behavior seemed to get more erratic and violent as the disease progressed, so it might have been affecting their cognitive ability. Though, this is contingent on the Founders being in solid form and able to talk to the Vorta, as the Great Link seemed unable to do anything but slowly wither away.

[Tribble]

There's also the problem of practicality. The Founders, unless on assignment somewhere, have one giant hub that they are always at, The Great Link. Even if Starfleet, and by extension, Section 31, don't know the location, they know that if they infect one Founder, they will eventually be infecting them all. Lucky for them, Odo came in for tests at Starfleet Medical in season 4 of DS9, a year before the Dominion made Cardassia a member, and he joined with the link at the end of the season(where they made him a Solid, which leads to the question of if he hadn't turned back into a Changeling, would he still have gotten the disease?).

IIRC, Odo was intended to be a carrier but not have any symptoms, presumably so that patient zero would be harder to trace. Turning into a human then merging with the baby Changeling and regaining his abilities apparently was what caused the virus to activate.

Though, there is merit to the Founders ordering a genocide as their last act. The Female Changeling's behavior seemed to get more erratic and violent as the disease progressed, so it might have been affecting their cognitive ability. Though, this is contingent on the Founders being in solid form and able to talk to the Vorta, as the Great Link seemed unable to do anything but slowly wither away.

Which is why IMO part 2 of their plan should have involved the destruction of the wormhole. Hell, regardless of whether or not Section 31 developed the virus they should have taken out the wormhole. Or Starfleet should have ordered the wormhole closed when it became clear just how big a threat the Dominion was (IMO that point was already reached with the destruction of the USS Odyssey). If they had done that right away, or decided to shoot it with photon torpedoes instead of trying to keep the Prophets safe, the Dominion would never have been an issue. Obviously it wasn't done because the show would be over, but it would have been the logical thing to do.

[Prometheus Unbound]

Jam'Hadar would commit suicide if the founders all died.

The plan was sound - and actually worked, bar the cure. The Founders were days away from dying, if Odo and Female Changeling were an example.

[Prometheus Unbound]

Turning into a human then merging with the baby Changeling and regaining his abilities apparently was what caused the virus to activate.

Not necessarily - he did link with her in season 6 when she was on the station - she could have somewhat ironically transmitted it back to him that way.

[NecronLord]

This always annoyed me.

The logical flaw with the plan is that, as the Founders are viewed as gods, even one of them surviving is enough to order hienous revenge.

Form an out of universe perspective, it's the ultimate incarnation of the planet of hats trope; to think that all the founders would spend all their time on one planet, and all in the link, when Odo is a fully realized individual.

It smacked of 'humans are special' that the Dominion, often stated to be expert in bio-engineering, could not think up a cure when Bashir, one guy, could. Even though the Founders have had far more time to study their own biology than either Section 31 or Bashir.


In universe, it is wholly asinine of Starfleet/Section 31 to believe that the Founders would have been wiped out. The Great Link, certainly. But the idea that the Dominion is wholly run by the Vorta when we see multiple Founders involved in field-work in the series, is laughable.

At the very least the "Female Changeling" and the changeling who impersonated Gowron, accepted years-long missions that would be largely out of contact with other Founders.

The plan only works to kill the species off if we assume that the entire species of however many millions of individuals, are all homogenously boring, and don't have either variation or interests. Odo is a fully developed individual.

The Founders are an intelligent, tool using species whose technologies and strategies were only defeated by the intervention of dieties. Likewise the homeworld has a state of the art communications center. They are certainly able to instruct the founders who were away from the Great Link at that time, to observe quarantine.

The Great Link could be infected, yes, but the decision to use the infection presumes that Section 31 magically knew that during the incubation period, there were no changelings who would be away.

For instance, how does Section 31 not know that there's not, somewhere in the bigger-than-the-Federation expanse of Dominion space, a Jem'hadar battlecruiser with half a dozen Changelings on a leisure cruise observing the migration of stellar entities, years away from the Great Link?

How does it not know there's one supervising a Dominion transwarp research station orbiting a distant world?

How do they know there's no changelings on a long-term inspection tour of the frontiers of the Dominion?

What if there's a single changeling on Earth (remember the big panic about that?) or formenting revolt on Remus, somewhere, that could return home and take command of the Dominion.


It's a plan that presumes the entire sapient species has nothing to do but sit around waiting for something to happen to them. While they have clearly become recluses of a sort, there's nothing to suggest that they don't have any curiosity, and that literally none of them exist beyond the Omarian Nebula.


Hell, these people sent out their offspring on a 300 plus year journey, and are prepared to wait that long for the results. It's entirely possble that they have some founders in stasis somewhere to act as a contingency government and to rebuild the race, if someone actually manages to destroy their homeworld, it's not as if no one has tried before.

The plan relies on the Founders, a race who were introduced as supposedly having centuries-long strategic plans, not having a concept of continuity of government, and a race who have used biowarfare on people, not having ever anticipated someone would try it on them. It requires literally everything the Founders do to be convinient to the plan, rather than working with thier likely behaviours.

Side Notes:

Quantum Slipstream vs Dominion: there's no reason to think quantum slipstream will work in an appreciable timescale for the Federation. They've been experimenting with transwarp since Kirk's day, and didn't get it to work as a deployable drive system. Same with slipstream (is it different from transwarp, or is it just another name?) a one off usage of a version created by an alien from a species the borg valued a hundred times more than the entire Federation, doesn't mean that they're up to the job of making it a practical UFP technology, any more than they were able to replicate the Kelvans' superior drive modifications to the Enterprise nil that whacked its speed up far above Voyager's, or the Traveller's modifications to the Enterprise-D that let it travel across the universe.

Destroying the Wormhole:

Destroying the wormhole happened in a simulation, never in actual use. They think they can do it, but the same people that think that have no idea of the capacities of the Prophets.

The Wormhole aliens exist have and use the ability to travel in time to effect changes. Why would they not take action to prevent an attack on the wormhole (perhaps this is why the thing ended up being stabilized in the first place) If you settle your policy on destroying the wormhole, you have a problem in that you have now made an enemy of the Bajoran people, and their gods, the abilities of which are not known.

And of course, we the viewers, though not the characters, know that the Pah Wraiths would then escape on Bajor, and those fuckers had some scary abilities.

Beyond which destroying the wormhole without just cause would possibly risk various unpleasant consequences from other powers that wished to use it and had agreements with Bajor to do so, perhaps sanctions from Ferenginar. That's less scary than open war with the Dominion, obviously, but could easily make destroying the Wormhole politically unreliable.

It could also put off any number of other cultures from interaction with the Federation. "Look what happened when the Bajorans snuggled them? They found and killed their gods, and sabotaged Bajor's economic development for centuries in the name of Federation security" which could easily damage the Federation's reputation in the long run.

[Tribble]

It smacked of 'humans are special' that the Dominion, often stated to be expert in bio-engineering, could not think up a cure when Bashir, one guy, could. Even though the Founders have had far more time to study their own biology than either Section 31 or Bashir.

IIRC Bashir did not think up of a cure, he faked a cure to lure Sloane to DS9, then gained the info from the cure via the brain interrogation thing. Kind of odd that Section 31 would develop a cure for their virus, but I suppose they wanted to hedge their bets in case it needed to be used as a negotiating tactic.

As silly as it was, apparently they weren't able to solve it, and the Founders were close to dying when the cease fire was signed.

Destroying the Wormhole:

Destroying the wormhole happened in a simulation, never in actual use. They think they can do it, but the same people that think that have no idea of the capacities of the Prophets.

There were a couple of episode where there were things that affected / threatened the wormhole. For example, there was a comet which contained material which could have collapsed it, and just traces of the comet were enough to effect the wormhole and make two-way communications possible even when it was "closed". IMO barring the Prophets interference they had the capability to close the wormhole prior to Changeling Bashir's sabotage.

The Wormhole aliens exist have and use the ability to travel in time to effect changes. Why would they not take action to prevent an attack on the wormhole (perhaps this is why the thing ended up being stabilized in the first place) If you settle your policy on destroying the wormhole, you have a problem in that you have now made an enemy of the Bajoran people, and their gods, the abilities of which are not known.

That could potentially be a problem, though again that's an unknown. It's just as possible that the prophets don't particularly care and the closure of the wormhole wouldn't actually affect them. IIRC the wormhole didn't open all the time until Sisko specifically asked them to keep it open for traffic. Come to think of it perhaps he should have asked them to close it again; he is the Emissary after all.

And of course, we the viewers, though not the characters, know that the Pah Wraiths would then escape on Bajor, and those fuckers had some scary abilities.

Not necessarily. IIRC when Dukat destroyed the Orb he collapsed the wormhole, but the Pah Wraiths didn't escape Bajor then. Only the ritual in the fire caves could have released them all.

Beyond which destroying the wormhole without just cause would possibly risk various unpleasant consequences from other powers that wished to use it and had agreements with Bajor to do so, perhaps sanctions from Ferenginar. That's less scary than open war with the Dominion, obviously, but could easily make destroying the Wormhole politically unreliable.

It could also put off any number of other cultures from interaction with the Federation. "Look what happened when the Bajorans snuggled them? They found and killed their gods, and sabotaged Bajor's economic development for centuries in the name of Federation security" which could easily damage the Federation's reputation in the long run.

Those problems could be avoided if it was a covert op rather than officially sanctioned. Section 31 could have made an attempt and pin it on the Romulans or Cardassians or something. Now that I think of it, I'm kind of surprised the Cardassians and the Romulans didn't try to shut it down themselves, it's not like they really care about what other people think about them.

Yes, there would be potential consequences if they failed and/or were discovered, but that would have been less than an all-out war against the Dominion. IMO that should have been just cause to try and close the wormhole, at least from Section 31's viewpoint.

[FaxModem1]

Side Notes:

Quantum Slipstream vs Dominion: there's no reason to think quantum slipstream will work in an appreciable timescale for the Federation. They've been experimenting with transwarp since Kirk's day, and didn't get it to work as a deployable drive system. Same with slipstream (is it different from transwarp, or is it just another name?) a one off usage of a version created by an alien from a species the borg valued a hundred times more than the entire Federation, doesn't mean that they're up to the job of making it a practical UFP technology, any more than they were able to replicate the Kelvans' superior drive modifications to the Enterprise nil that whacked its speed up far above Voyager's, or the Traveller's modifications to the Enterprise-D that let it travel across the universe.

Slipstream was recreated by Voyager, a ship on their own, not once, but twice, in "Hope and Fear" and in "Timeless". It is NOT Transwarp. Transwarp, for the Federation, has never had a working model, and is something only civilizations like the Voth or the Borg have, and can travel the galaxy in hours or days. Slipstream takes months to travel the galaxy, while regular warp, of course, takes years or decades. We see the difference in when something is traveling at slipstream vs transwarp as well.

The biggest reason Voyager never used slipstream is that the crystals used in slipstream takes forever to make, and are rather delicate and easy to destroy. Something hard for them to make over and over while they're getting beat up by the Delta Quadrant. And it also has problems with steering, and can lead to horrible crashes. Unlike the Traveler or the Kelvan's modifications, Federation engineers and scientists can replicate it on their own, without outside help(Unless you count Seven of Nine as outside help). Since a technology like this is able to be recreated by the Voyager crew, though a flawed model, it is rather possible that the Federation, with their full resources behind it, could also replicate it, and create facilities to make the special crystals.

Transwarp has a faster warp like effect, while slipstream creates a sort of tunnel through their deflector dish. For comparison:

Voth Transwarp:


Quantum Slipstream Drive:


If you want to accept the novels or Star Trek Online(which are different continuities from each other), slipstream becomes a defacto addition to new models of Starfleet ships, with older ships being retrofitted, but it depends on how, well, for lack of a better word, aerodynamic the vessel is for slipstream.

To sum up, transwarp is something the Federation won't have for at least another generation, due to their lack of a working model, and inability to quite replicate the technology, even when Voyager steals it from the Borg, they can only use it up until its gone, then throw it away the module. Slipstream is workable, but requires specialized facilities to make it usable, and given enough time, can be done by the Federation.

[NecronLord]

IIRC Bashir did not think up of a cure, he faked a cure to lure Sloane to DS9, then gained the info from the cure via the brain interrogation thing. Kind of odd that Section 31 would develop a cure for their virus, but I suppose they wanted to hedge their bets in case it needed to be used as a negotiating tactic.

As silly as it was, apparently they weren't able to solve it, and the Founders were close to dying when the cease fire was signed.

You are correct.

While that may be canon, though, it was still a daft plan, because unless they had a superbeing on staff, there's no way Section 31 could know that the Dominion wouldn't cure it, or retaliate by blowing up the suns of every Federation planet the moment they found out.

Of course, one of the Weyouns defects to Odo in Treachery, Faith and the Great River, perhaps Section 31 thought he would inherit a large part of the Dominion and be trusted/able to cancel the Founders orders.

But yeah, while the Founders don't apparently know it's from the Federation, that's really not something they could rely on them not finding out, as without the divine intervention that they didn't know was going to happen, the Jem'hadar would be in Section 31 bases, attaching nerve-inducers to Section 31 commanders' genitals, before the end of the year. When a nation falls, its intelligence agency falls, its records are siezed and its agents are put to the question; that's been happening since World War two and ever since in the real world.

Frankly, the Dominion would have taken the cure by force, in a rare case of rubber-hose epidemiology, if it wasn't for the Prophets' space magic.

[NecronLord]

The biggest reason Voyager never used slipstream is that the crystals used in slipstream takes forever to make, and are rather delicate and easy to destroy. Something hard for them to make over and over while they're getting beat up by the Delta Quadrant. And it also has problems with steering, and can lead to horrible crashes. Unlike the Traveler or the Kelvan's modifications, Federation engineers and scientists can replicate it on their own, without outside help(Unless you count Seven of Nine as outside help). Since a technology like this is able to be recreated by the Voyager crew, though a flawed model, it is rather possible that the Federation, with their full resources behind it, could also replicate it, and create facilities to make the special crystals.

Transwarp has a faster warp like effect, while slipstream creates a sort of tunnel through their deflector dish. For comparison:

Transwarp effects are all over the place. The Voth's device isn't the only such device ever shown by any means.


Slipstream drive vs:

Transwarp Conduit from the Voyager Finale. While that's the version with the hub, the coil version is the same sort of effect but in green.

If you want to accept the novels or Star Trek Online(which are different continuities from each other), slipstream becomes a defacto addition to new models of Starfleet ships, with older ships being retrofitted, but it depends on how, well, for lack of a better word, aerodynamic the vessel is for slipstream.

Star Trek Online lost all credibility with me when it introduced (spoilers) Teleporting Dyson Spheres. Does anyone seriously think that if another, original timeline trek film or series were released, it would feature all that junk in the continuity? Nope. It's not part of the shown canon, nor is it likely to have any effect on future productions. Likewise the novels have always been non canon.

To sum up, transwarp is something the Federation won't have for at least another generation, due to their lack of a working model, and inability to quite replicate the technology, even when Voyager steals it from the Borg, they can only use it up until its gone, then throw it away the module. Slipstream is workable, but requires specialized facilities to make it usable, and given enough time, can be done by the Federation.

The only way that the second use of slipstream did not end in general disaster, and the deaths of almost the entire crew, was because one of them had been implanted with a borg temporal transmitter which allowed a knowledge-paradox to be used to save the crew.

Can the Federation produce borg temporal transmitters?

Not that we know of, no.

Therefore we can reasonably conclude that large scale tests without Seven of Nine on board will result in naval disasters and the losses of hundreds of starfleet personnel every time, until the Federation develops an understanding of navigation to equal Species 116.

[Prometheus Unbound]

Form an out of universe perspective, it's the ultimate incarnation of the planet of hats trope; to think that all the founders would spend all their time on one planet, and all in the link, when Odo is a fully realized individual.

It smacked of 'humans are special' that the Dominion, often stated to be expert in bio-engineering, could not think up a cure when Bashir, one guy, could. Even though the Founders have had far more time to study their own biology than either Section 31 or Bashir.

Well, Humans and every other race ever shown in Trek. Female founder said, they dislike taking solid form - their natural state is that lake.

And Bashir *couldn't* find the cure - he needed it handed to him by the creator(s) of the virus. No one could find the cure.

[FaxModem1]

The only way that the second use of slipstream did not end in general disaster, and the deaths of almost the entire crew, was because one of them had been implanted with a borg temporal transmitter which allowed a knowledge-paradox to be used to save the crew.

Can the Federation produce borg temporal transmitters?

Not that we know of, no.

Therefore we can reasonably conclude that large scale tests without Seven of Nine on board will result in naval disasters and the losses of hundreds of starfleet personnel every time, until the Federation develops an understanding of navigation to equal Species 116.

And yet, the Delta Flyer made it through fine, even without borg temporal transmitters. There's also the first time they used it, in which they shaved 300 light years off their journey, but had to quit due to stress to the device and the ship. So it seems that they can use slipstream, but have to have a proper hull for it, or slipstream tears them apart. Something Starfleet could do with the next wave of ships. Voyager obviously couldn't do that due to them being stranded.

So, better navigation equipment, better, more aerodynamic hull, or something/someone scouting ahead and sending corrections for navigation. Heck, using the MIDAS array from later seasons, they could send a probe via slipstream, and have it chart the path for them, then broadcast the path to them when it arrives.

And until a new Star Trek show comes out and wipes away the novels and STO, they are the current directions the Federation seems to be going in regards to its future. Heck, in TNG's All Good Things, the alternate Enterprise-D makes it to 'warp 13', whatever that is, so the Federation is progressing in propulsion technology in the 20 to 30 years after Voyager ends.

[NecronLord]

Well, Humans and every other race ever shown in Trek. Female founder said, they dislike taking solid form - their natural state is that lake.

Except there are multiple canon examples of Founders who accepted multi-year solo missions.

And Bashir *couldn't* find the cure - he needed it handed to him by the creator(s) of the virus. No one could find the cure.

Already conceded. Rubber Hose Epidemiology it is.


Their plan was and remains dumb, because as well as it relying on the Dominion to sit around doing nothing but wait to be 'got,' it would probably have been discovered if the dominion navy had been able to come in force, because there would be Jem'hadar in Starfleet Intelligence HQ and Section 31 head office, ransacking them. And as you say, they have the cure, so the Founders could easily genocide the Federation right back until they turn it over.

And yet, the Delta Flyer made it through fine, even without borg temporal transmitters. There's also the first time they used it, in which they shaved 300 light years off their journey, but had to quit due to stress to the device and the ship. So it seems that they can use slipstream, but have to have a proper hull for it, or slipstream tears them apart. Something Starfleet could do with the next wave of ships. Voyager obviously couldn't do that due to them being stranded.

So, better navigation equipment, better, more aerodynamic hull, or something/someone scouting ahead and sending corrections for navigation. Heck, using the MIDAS array from later seasons, they could send a probe via slipstream, and have it chart the path for them, then broadcast the path to them when it arrives.

The better navigation equipment bit is critical. They need to design such equipment. To do that, theym must match Species 116's understanding of slipspace dynamics in order to build a safe or reliable one. They must improve their technology and science. We have no reason at all to think that that will be quick.

Now don't get me wrong, I don't dislike the idea that they'll make progress, nor do I think that slipstream has no promise. For disposable unmanned probes. Or maybe for warpmissiles like the Cardassian Dreadnought weapon, but I suspect those are banned by treaty (god knows if Isolytic weapons and thalaron radiation is) for the Federation, and even if not they might have egg on their faces if it hit the wrong planet.

And until a new Star Trek show comes out and wipes away the novels and STO, they are the current directions the Federation seems to be going in regards to its future. Heck, in TNG's All Good Things, the alternate Enterprise-D makes it to 'warp 13', whatever that is, so the Federation is progressing in propulsion technology in the 20 to 30 years after Voyager ends.

Non-televised trek has no more authority than fan-fiction. STO is as admissable as my hypothesis about a group of founders on a battleship somewhere observing interstellar space whale migration (Clearly I should write a Founder-centric fanfic involving them stealing borg transwarp coils).

Bonus question: why doesn't Harry Kim's ship in the future scenes in Endgame use slipstream? It'd be useful for chasing Admiral Janeway wouldn't it?

[FaxModem1]

To answer your bonus question: It's Poor, Dumb Harry, he's not that good at much of anything. Seriously though, Slipstream has always seemed like a long distance propulsion device, to take you across half the galaxy, not something you want to do short hops in from one star system to another. You probably could if you wanted to, but that'd be rather like using a racecar's nitro boosters to get to the gas station two blocks over. Besides, he seemed to have caught her just fine without it.

As for slipstream navigation, that may very well be possible for the Federation to improve. As an example of their improvements, Communications at the start of TNG required a vast network of subspace relays that broadcast from one location to another in real time, compared to TOS, where communications seemed to take days or weeks to get a response(depending on the episode). And by the end of Voyager, the Pathfinder project and the MIDAS array seem to be enabling real time communication for short durations(11 minutes) between one corner of the galaxy to whomever they wanted. Seven of Nine even uses it for a game of kadis-kot with Neelix in Endgame, like a galactic Skype call. Technology like this will probably also be used by Starfleet and the Federation in the coming years. So they will probably be able to improve it. Janeway bringing a whole bunch of goodies to the Federation in Endgame, such as the batmobile armor, transphasic torpedoes, and slipstream, will all probably be looked at by the Federation over the next couple decades, and motivate them to improve.

The only reason we didn't see these improvements in Nemesis is probably because it'd only been a couple years, and Starfleet was still working on getting everything workable, the E-E hadn't been scheduled for a full on upgrade and overhaul yet, or the Enterprise-E wasn't compatible.

Honest question: Isn't STO considered canon by Paramount? I thought it was. If it isn't, I guess it really doesn't matter what happens in that timeline.

Their plan was and remains dumb, because as well as it relying on the Dominion to sit around doing nothing but wait to be 'got,' it would probably have been discovered if the dominion navy had been able to come in force, because there would be Jem'hadar in Starfleet Intelligence HQ and Section 31 head office, ransacking them. And as you say, they have the cure, so the Founders could easily genocide the Federation right back until they turn it over.

According to Sloan, Section 31 has no central office, so invading Jem'Hadar wouldn't be able to find such a smoking gun. Though of course, this is Sloan we're talking about, so he could have been lying through his teeth to Bashir.

[NecronLord]

The bureaucrat in Starfleet Medical who stonewalls Bashir about Odo's medical records was clearly aware of something, as was the Admiral at starfleet intelligence who Sisko spoke to. Either they know, or it's in starfleet computers on Earth. Either way it would be found if the Vorta are smart enough to comb the records when they take Earth, and comprehensively debrief/mind-probe all senior captives after the surrender.

Which presumably they are. Especially as we see they have the technology to put people's minds through simulations and extract information from them. While I jokingly referenced torture of Section 31, the Dominion has interrogation tools far better than that.

As you say, the idea that starfleet is anywhere near to solving slipsteam navigation is entirely in the realm of speculation.

I am not aware of STO being canonical in any meaningful sense, I may be wrong. Though, if it is, I should note that the Dominion aren't going to get slipstream at some point; everyone else gets transwarp and slipstream.

[FaxModem1]

The bureaucrat in Starfleet Medical who stonewalls Bashir about Odo's medical records was clearly aware of something, as was the Admiral at starfleet intelligence who Sisko spoke to. Either they know, or it's in starfleet computers on Earth. Either way it would be found if the Vorta are smart enough to comb the records when they take Earth, and comprehensively debrief/mind-probe all senior captives after the surrender.

Which presumably they are. Especially as we see they have the technology to put people's minds through simulations and extract information from them. While I jokingly referenced torture of Section 31, the Dominion has interrogation tools far better than that.

That assumes they don't follow Weyoun's plan of just bombing Earth from orbit for pragmatic reasons, as he thought it would be the central hub of Federation rebellion.

As you say, the idea that starfleet is anywhere near to solving slipsteam navigation is entirely in the realm of speculation.

Yep, could be anywhere from its something they don't solve until Daniels time in the 31st century, to the Enterprise-E is getting slipstream retrofits as they're being repaired in drydock after the events of Nemesis.

I am not aware of STO being canonical in any meaningful sense, I may be wrong. Though, if it is, I should note that the Dominion aren't going to get slipstream at some point; everyone else gets transwarp and slipstream.

Yeah, I know STO is official, but I don't know if that counts as canon or not.

[NecronLord]

Official just means they're liscenced, surely. The Ressurected Kirk books, and the Genesis Wave, or the TOS ones with the Federation Member Crystal Spider species who create a super-drive (these books were ripped off to create the Traveller episodes in TNG) that knocks the socks off transwarp in TNG are all official Star Trek products.

That assumes they don't follow Weyoun's plan of just bombing Earth from orbit for pragmatic reasons, as he thought it would be the central hub of Federation rebellion.

Frankly, even if they do, you'd think they'd let their intelligence officers have a crack at it. Dominion intelligence has managed to save the founders before (Moving the Great Link in The Die is Cast) and has been shown to swing into action the moment the intruders contacted the Jem'hadar, and oh yes, has telekinetic vorta (The Jem'hadar) they were generally, in earlier seasons, depicted as extremely capable.

I wonder; it's possible that Dominion Intelligence officers weren't present in the Alpha Quadrant during the war after [i}Sacrifice of Angels[/i] due to attrition and being unable to be replaced. That certainly would go some way explain why the Dominion gets... less smart... as the series goes on.

Weyoun is first introduced as a general representative of the Dominion (and I think he was in the episode with the iconian gate?), he's never said to have been running strategic operations in the Gamma Quadrant, after all.

Of course, were that the case, then without the Prophets, the Federation would have had to deal with the smarter, season-three/four Dominion.