PT vs OT

[Vendetta]

So the entire conflict that forms the basis of TPM's story is predicated upon the Trade Federation being too stupid to realize that Naboo is a political ally?

I mean they are pretty stupid.

Their immediate goal after invading is to get Amidala to sign a treaty ratifying their occupation, so what do they do immediately on having her in custody?

Send her to an internment camp without signing any such treaty.

Even when they have a clear unambiguous goal and all the prerequisites to meet that goal immediately at hand, they don't do it.

So fuck knows what their long term objective really was. Probably make a cup of tea or something, but that just spiralled out of hand because they don't know how to do anything right.

[Vendetta]

Palpatine was the senator from Naboo. Palpatine is also Darth Sidious. Darth Sidious is influencing the TF. Naboo is a planet that is on the trade route in the outlying star systems that the TF utilize for trade purposes.

Trouble is, Naboo doesn't have any hint of the sort of infrastructure you would expect if it were a major stop on a trade route, and the blockade is specifically of things entering and leaving the planet.

The effect of this appears to be super local as well, the blockade isn't disrupting trade in the republic, just in one member world out of thousands.

So how did this get sold to the trade federation leadership, they're effectively protesting tolls on the interstate by blockading a two horse town 20 miles off it that truckers sometimes stop at.

[Metahive]

Any explanation WRT the Trade Federations reasoning behind blockading and invading Naboo on behalf of an anonymous "benefactor" will involve copious applications of head-canon since the movies themselves are incredibly obtuse when it comes to explaining these things. They're borne out of the whole PT suffering from first-draft syndrome, in that Lucas simply wrote down what came to his mind and then filmed the whole thing without refining or revising much or anything.
I would argue that a simple solution would have been to say that the TF had a monopoly on galactic trade and imposed a special tariff which Naboo was either too poor to afford or refused to pay in order to make a principled stand and the blockade and invasion were therefore the TF retaliating for it. This would also be a perfect reason to topple Valorum as allowing an NGO to get away with these things would cost him sympathy and bring support to anyone standing against it. Someone like Palpatine, presenting himself as a champion of the little people against the big bad corporations.

This could even play into the start of the Clone Wars, as Palpatine enacting policies curbing the power of galactic megacorporations would give them a motivation to draw swords over it.

[Andy Wylde]

Palpatine was the senator from Naboo. Palpatine is also Darth Sidious. Darth Sidious is influencing the TF. Naboo is a planet that is on the trade route in the outlying star systems that the TF utilize for trade purposes.

Trouble is, Naboo doesn't have any hint of the sort of infrastructure you would expect if it were a major stop on a trade route, and the blockade is specifically of things entering and leaving the planet.

The effect of this appears to be super local as well, the blockade isn't disrupting trade in the republic, just in one member world out of thousands.

So how did this get sold to the trade federation leadership, they're effectively protesting tolls on the interstate by blockading a two horse town 20 miles off it that truckers sometimes stop at.

I don't know how the TF and Sidious got to together on their scheme. And this was a local incident that resulted in a planetary invasion. It was the planetary invasion that was crossing the line by the TF. It started out as a blockade, the form of protest that the TF were doing at first. Than when the TF find out that they may have Jedi come there and try to force a settlement, Sidious has to get the invasion started before the Jedi can force a settlement on the TF. Because if the Jedi did force the settlement of the TF to stop the blockade, then there is a possibility that Palpatine may not get to be elected chancellor. The invasion was what made the call for a vote of no confidence possible.

Valorum has now allowed a petty problem(taxes of trade routes) to escalate into a full blown invasion and he did nothing but try and get a committee together to see if this was happening. The leader of the planet came to the senate to plead her case. And Padme knew that the senate was useless to do anything for her and her people. So Palpatine telling her that the senate was corrupt led her to be the one to call for the vote of no confidence. That is why she took matters into her own hands and went back to Naboo.

As for what the Naboo need to have shipped to them, I really don't know and don't care either. It could have been anything. But again the INVASION was what the real problem was. The issue of taxes on trade routes is something that should have been handled in the senate and that's it. The fact that it escalated into an invasion was a huge issue.

And Sidious was also using the TF for other matters down the road. Do you think that Nute Gunray avoided prosecution of 4 trials of the supreme court by coincidence? No, it was because Palp/Sids was then Chancellor and he also had control over the courts. Nute Gunray invaded a planet and got away with it. Because Palp/Sids needed them to be one of the parties involved with the CIS. They have the power and resources to create battle ships and droid soldiers. So the blockade of Naboo was just a first step into an oncoming full blown war. And it was Mace Windu in episode 3 that said while deflecting Sidious' lightning to Anakin that he(Sids) was too powerful to be kept alive. He has control of the COURTS and the SENATE!

[Adam Reynolds]

Part of the problem with the prequels is that the most interesting story is the one we hardly see, that of Palpatine's manipulations that led him to taking power. It could have been an even more epic version of House of Cards in which Palpatine goes through a dark version of The Hero's Journey and ends in him turning Anakin. But instead we get a focus on "I don't like sand" as well as a mystery in which the audience was always five steps ahead of the characters and in which we know the heroes will utterly fail.

As for Palpatine's plan, he was obviously intending to play both sides in a fashion that would eventually lead to the Trade Federation being forced into all out war with the Republic. This would lead the Trade Federation's allies, like the Commerce Guilds and Banking Clan, to also be put in a position in which they are forced to choose a side and likely side with the Trade Federation out of a fear that they would be next. Especially given that without the secret buildup of clones, it would take longer for the Republic to militarize enough to take on the existing droid armies of the various NGOs which would lead to the TF allies seeing it as an opportunity.

And of course the primary purpose of the Clone Wars was as a means to both distract and eliminate the Jedi. Without a proper Republic army the brunt of combat would fall to them even more than it did with the canon course of events. The fact that Palpatine's plans were altered so heavily was part of what made it so interesting.

[Khaat]

TPM falls to war as soon as the heroes return to Coruscant: despite the "really, really important" Chosen One, Qui Gon could have just shown up in the Senate and announced "we were sent to conclude negotiations with the Trade Federation, and witnessed their invasion of Naboo."
The "TF tried to kill the Supreme Chancellor's ambassadors" could have set off the war, just not included the deposing of Valorum right away. Palpatine would have just taken the next opportunity to get Valorum booted and slip into the big chair.

[Andy Wylde]

TPM falls to war as soon as the heroes return to Coruscant: despite the "really, really important" Chosen One, Qui Gon could have just shown up in the Senate and announced "we were sent to conclude negotiations with the Trade Federation, and witnessed their invasion of Naboo."
The "TF tried to kill the Supreme Chancellor's ambassadors" could have set off the war, just not included the deposing of Valorum right away. Palpatine would have just taken the next opportunity to get Valorum booted and slip into the big chair.

The Jedi were sent in secret by Valorum. Why did he do this? Because Valorum knows the senate is corrupt and not willing to do anything. The senate was "endlessly debating" matters. So the Jedi couldn't contribute to the hearing of the senate because they were sent in secret. If the Jedi being sent to settle the dispute was just some ordinary Republic protocol, then why send them in secret?

The Jedi were never supposed to be there to begin with. If the Jedi were known to be involved then a whole separate issue now arises within the senate. And the Jedi weren't ambassadors to begin with. They used that as a cover to gain access to the TF ship. After TC-14 seats them and comes back to tell Nute Gunray that she believes they are Jedi knights, then that is when they called Sidious and told him of the situation. Then he advises Gunray to start landing troops and dispose of the Jedi.

So this means that there can be no claims of any ambassadors being killed since there were never any ambassadors there to begin with. And the Jedi have no say in the matter. They weren't even supposed to be there either. Valorum went behind the senates back by sending the Jedi to "force a settlement". Because Valorum according to Queen Amidala is her biggest supporter. So Valorum just tried to lend a hand and help the Naboo because the senate is pretty useless to do anything.

[Khaat]

While the Congress of the
Republic endlessly debates
this alarming chain of events,
the Supreme Chancellor has
secretly dispatched two Jedi
Knights, the guardians of
peace and justice in the
galaxy, to settle the conflict....

Do you normally see news reports of diplomats being dispatched over matters?
Do we normally see the qualifications of those diplomats sent?
Aren't (at this point) Jedi seen as a good thing in the Republic?
Was "ambassadors sent" the secret part, or the fact that they were Jedi?
Why secret? Great question, but never answered. Valorum may have side-stepped a procedural thing to send non-bureaucratic (Jedi) ambassadors; he may have over-stepped a bureaucratic hoop-jump committee over even sending ambassadors; he may be mired by (Palpatine's) "baseless rumors and accusations" and not even any real Senate procedural matters. But we'll never know, since the Senate structure and function wasn't adequately explained beyond the "it's complicated, little girl" spiel Palpatine gives Padme.

Palpatine could have just as easily intended to have Gunray kill any non-Jedi ambassadors and precipitate the invasion. My point is that Jedi or not, Palpatine gets his war.

[Andy Wylde]

While the Congress of the
Republic endlessly debates
this alarming chain of events,
the Supreme Chancellor has
secretly dispatched two Jedi
Knights, the guardians of
peace and justice in the
galaxy, to settle the conflict....

Do you normally see news reports of diplomats being dispatched over matters?
Do we normally see the qualifications of those diplomats sent?
Aren't (at this point) Jedi seen as a good thing in the Republic?
Was "ambassadors sent" the secret part, or the fact that they were Jedi?
Why secret? Great question, but never answered. Valorum may have side-stepped a procedural thing to send non-bureaucratic (Jedi) ambassadors; he may have over-stepped a bureaucratic hoop-jump committee over even sending ambassadors; he may be mired by (Palpatine's) "baseless rumors and accusations" and not even any real Senate procedural matters. But we'll never know, since the Senate structure and function wasn't adequately explained beyond the "it's complicated, little girl" spiel Palpatine gives Padme.

Palpatine could have just as easily intended to have Gunray kill any non-Jedi ambassadors and precipitate the invasion. My point is that Jedi or not, Palpatine gets his war.

The Jedi were seen as good in the Republic at that time. But that doesn't mean they can get involved in any and all matters of the Republic. So why in secret? Well you answered your own question. Valorum was side stepping Republic protocol. And it could be seen as Valorum showing bias towards the Naboo. That could possibly ruin Palpatine's credibility in the eyes of the senate. Because if the senate found out that the Jedi were sent in secret to take care of matters that the Republic ambassadors were supposed to take care of. That would warrant a separate investigation against the Chancellor and that would include Palpatine investigated as well. So now with the senate looking into the matter of Jedi being involved, this grinds Palpatine's plans to a stand still.

The Jedi were there to force a settlement. The Chancellor is Naboo's biggest supporter. You see now why the Jedi were sent in secret? Why send people that could manipulate the TF minds and have them back down from the blockade? If the blockade is gone, then Palpatine has nothing to gain sympathy from. Qui Gon even said that "these federation types are cowards" He was right. The TF was about to fold just upon hearing that the people they let on board MAY be Jedi. So obviously Valorum knew that the Jedi were enough to scare them into backing down. But nobody knew that Darth Sidious, a Sith lord was involved. And Amidalla herself came to Coruscant to plead her case and have it taken care of immediately. But Valorum takes sides with the other senators about sending a committee to check out the situation.

Also take into account that as soon as the senate hearing began it was shortly after that Amidalla called for a vote of no confidence. So even IF the Jedi could participate in the matter, the fact that a vote of no confidence was called and the senate immediately responded with vote now means that there was no more discussion of the matter. They were ready to vote out Valorum. Then they had to find people to vote for the position of the Chancellor. Then once nominees were picked they had to vote on one of them to be Chancellor. Then whoever becomes Chancellor would be the one to take care of the issues in the Republic. But as soon as Palpatine was elected, the invasion was already taken care of by the people of Naboo and the Gungans. So no more invasion. No reason to look into that matter by the senate.

[Galvatron]

The tragedy was the INVASION which started with the taxes on trade routes.

Even conceding that Palpatine was referring only to the invasion as the tragedy, his phrasing still leveled the blame for it at the Senate's taxation of trade routes. So either way you slice it, Naboo wasn't the TF's political enemy which means punishing them in protest of the tax still makes no sense as their public motive.

That is, unless you have evidence that Palpatine and Naboo were for it before they were against it, John Kerry style. Is there anything in TPM that indicates this?

So this means that there can be no claims of any ambassadors being killed since there were never any ambassadors there to begin with.

Um, no, that doesn't wash either. Both the TF and Naboo knew that the Republic was sending ambassadors. That wasn't the secret. Only that they were Jedi was a secret.

[Andy Wylde]

The tragedy was the INVASION which started with the taxes on trade routes.

Even conceding that Palpatine was referring only to the invasion as the tragedy, his phrasing still leveled the blame for it at the Senate's taxation of trade routes. So either way you slice it, Naboo wasn't the TF's political enemy which means punishing them in protest of the tax still makes no sense as their public motive.

That is, unless you have evidence that Palpatine and Naboo were for it before they were against it, John Kerry style. Is there anything in TPM that indicates this?

No the taxation of trade routes were what started the whole thing. But the TF invading a planet was going far beyond anything they were supposed to do. The senate levying taxes is not a crime. The TF went too far over something that needed to be handled on the floor of the senate. So Palpatine is only speaking about what the TF used as an excuse to start causing trouble for the people of Naboo.

The Naboo and even Palpatine for that matter have no stake in the matter of taxes on trade routes.

The senate as a whole and the TF were the only ones that had any stakes with the taxes on trade routes. The TF utilizes those trade routes. Naboo doesn't use them. Nor did the Naboo have to pay taxes for them. The TF were blockading because that was there way of protesting the taxes on trade routes. Then the TF were pushed into invading Naboo.

[Khaat]

The vote of No Confidence for Valorum didn't change a thing: the Senate was still going to be bound by their protocols, and even Palpatine quickly elected ("with sympathetic votes") could not move the senate to outlaw the invasion: the heroes had to defeat the Trade Federation in armed conflict. If anything, it delayed resolution: they had to vote on a new Supreme Chancellor, before addressing the issue!

The matter of secrecy was never resolved: I specifically used a lot of "MAY" in those statements, because we'll never know. The structure of the Senate is a big, blank page. Is Supreme Chancellor just a "Speaker of the House" or "President of the Senate"? Is it a "Prime Minister"? We heard there were courts, but nothing about an executive branch.

The Jedi were seen as good in the Republic at that time. But that doesn't mean they can get involved in any and all matters of the Republic.

The Jedi Order, much like many member-states' militaries, had atrophied from complacency, tradition-over-development, and a little cloying by the Dark Side. Would they have been expected to get involved as "peace-keepers"? I have to think so, or that whole "Guardians of Peace and Justice in the Galaxy" thing is just a bumper-sticker slogan.
"Hey, the Senate's endlessly debating some alarming events, Yoda. What do you think? Should we wait on that or...?"

[Galvatron]

The Jedi Order, much like many member-states' militaries, had atrophied from complacency, tradition-over-development, and a little cloying by the Dark Side. Would they have been expected to get involved as "peace-keepers"? I have to think so, or that whole "Guardians of Peace and Justice in the Galaxy" thing is just a bumper-sticker slogan.
"Hey, the Senate's endlessly debating some alarming events, Yoda. What do you think? Should we wait on that or...?"

Which is why the Jedi getting back to Coruscant alive and with a story about how the TF destroyed their ship, killed its crew and attempted to murder the two of them multiple times should have been at least mentioned to the Senate. That by itself should have been grounds enough to order the immediate arrest of Nute Gunray.

[Vendetta]

I don't know how the TF and Sidious got to together on their scheme.

Knowing exactly how they met isn't important.

What is important is having a believable reason for the Trade Federation to be blockading Naboo which isn't "because the plot says so".

That's important because apparently their cover story of "but taxes!" is sufficiently sound to make the Republic believe it to the point that the senate is deadlocked arguing about it.

But their actions make no sense in that context because Naboo has no obvious trade value to the republic, so the Trade Federation blockading just this one world shouldn't be a big deal or if it is should be so amazingly suspicious that everyone immediately starts looking for the actual motive.

[Khaat]

Which is why the Jedi getting back to Coruscant alive and with a story about how the TF destroyed their ship, killed its crew and attempted to murder the two of them multiple times should have been at least mentioned to the Senate. That by itself should have been grounds enough to order the immediate arrest of Nute Gunray.

This goes a long way to show how far the Jedi had been stupefied by Palpatine, that as they pile off the ship and Palpatine greets them, Qui-Gon decides "I have to go to the Jedi temple to discuss this kid! Very Important!"
Even Qui-Gon is playing into Palpatine's plans. "Sure, we were sent on a mission to resolve a conflict before it started, sure it started anyway, sure we may be able to get a solution underway faster by speaking to the Senate, but see this kid over here? He might be a big deal!" (and of course, he was: for Palpatine's ends.)

But my point remains that with or without the Jedi witnesses in the Senate, the war is going to happen. It was irrevocably set in motion with the invasion. The Senate hadn't resolved the issue before the invasion, it wasn't going to suddenly jump to resolution against the TF.
It would at least have changed the tone of the "endless debates", since the Republic didn't have an army (or navy as the need may be) to do anything about it anyway.

[Galvatron]

Just for the sake of fairness, I'm posting both of these videos so we can see how both trilogies were dumb. And this guy is no RLM so you can refrain from the critiques about his voice or comedy routine.





The question is, which trilogy was actually ruined by its dumbness?

[Knife]

His 5 stupid things about the OT were, well stupid and nit picky.

The 5 stupid things about the PT, well everyone hated jar jar, so that's just the low hanging fruit. I'm not sure the Yoda duel was 'stupid', a miss step perhaps, probably better to go the mystic route, but Steve's actual bitch on that was Yoda wasn't the goofy old wise muppet from ESB. His third bitch was no Han Solo or charming rogue character. But as we've seen from the TFA, people bitch it it's too close to the OT. The PT was about the Jedi so I see no reason for a smuggler type toon.

Now number 4 actual has traction. Under utilized cast to good actors. Out of the 5, this one actually has merit.

The last reason is 'there is no reason for them to exist'. This would be one of my reasons why Steve's 5 reasons Starwars PT was stupid was stupid. The back story in the OT was rich and interesting enough to warrant a look at it. You can argue whether or not it was done well, but it's stupid to say the idea of a prequel was not valid.

All and all, his 10 reasons (5 each) were mostly stupid.

[Galvatron]

His third bitch was no Han Solo or charming rogue character. But as we've seen from the TFA, people bitch it it's too close to the OT. The PT was about the Jedi so I see no reason for a smuggler type toon.

This psychologist explained it pretty well in his article The Han Solo Factor.

As Luke marveled at the wonders around him, there was the likelihood that some viewers would be bored. But then George Lucas did something very smart; he paired Luke with a very cynical character, Han Solo. While Luke responded with wonder, Han responded with apathy, nonchalance, and level-headedness. Han Solo provided the cynical perspective for those viewers who needed it to identify with. So those viewers no longer felt at a distance because of their own cynical thoughts. Over the course of the story, however, Han got gradually pulled in and more attached, as did the viewers who identified with him. This is what my brother suggested was missing from the new movies, a cynical character with whom older or more cynical viewers could identify.

Harrison Ford said pretty much the same thing in old interviews that you can see on YouTube.

[Knife]

Meh, Qui Gon did that very well in the first PT, you can perhaps argue Obi Wan did it the other two. We still might argue as to the effectiveness of the movies in that regard, but that particular character trait was present.

[Galvatron]

Meh, Qui Gon did that very well in the first PT, you can perhaps argue Obi Wan did it the other two.

As did Alec Guinness in ANH, but Han Solo was still a crucial character archetype that the prequels made no attempt to replicate.