Mass sexual assault in Cologne, including rape cases

[Broomstick]

But Ray, this isn't a cultural norm from Syria. It's people being twats, and while I disagree with edi's internet tough guy act, he's right that such behaviour is not tolerated there either. Let them feel the weight of a German law book as for anyone who acts like that.

Yeah, this. There's a pretty big gulf between a misogynistic culture without a tradition of gender equality and one where rape gangs having rape orgies in the middle of a city is considered normal and okay. Treat them like the criminals that they are and if that doesn't work then maybe we can talk about the special threat of refugee-driven violent crime.

This is what I meant by saying it's not a cultural problem - I have never heard of a culture, no matter how patriarchal and no matter how much the women are treated as chattel or children (or both) where that sort of public conduct is OK.

You've got a couple million people seeking refuge in Europe. Of course a certain percentage are criminals. They should be dealt with as criminals. The vast majority of the refugees - yes, even the young, sexist men - are going to behave and obey the law. Problem is, when you have an "outsider" minority the group as a whole is judged by the conduct of it's worst members, rather than those members being seen as the outliers they are.

That aside, the New Year's Eve bullshit has to be dealt with firmly (but lawfully) in order to discourage any further ideas along those lines.

[Broomstick]

I lurk a couple far right Euro forums now and they are talking about a Waterbreaker (dunno a good english term) effect here, hands are being rubbed, political pre-cum dripping.

If I understand the idiom correctly, the English term would be "watershed moment".

[Ralin]

This is what I meant by saying it's not a cultural problem - I have never heard of a culture, no matter how patriarchal and no matter how much the women are treated as chattel or children (or both) where that sort of public conduct is OK.

Indeed. Even goddamn ISIS has has all sorts of rules detailing exactly who can rape who and when.

[madd0ct0r]

But Ray, this isn't a cultural norm from Syria. It's people being twats, and while I disagree with edi's internet tough guy act, he's right that such behaviour is not tolerated there either. Let them feel the weight of a German law book as for anyone who acts like that.

I'm not saying it's a cultural norm in Syria and Iraq to assault women so publicly. I don't think there is any culture that would tolerate such an act.

However, things like gender discrimination can have a massive impact on the investigation of such crime in those areas. An environment that is less willingly to take action or listen to women who have been sexually assaulted creates an environment where those men feel confident in getting away from the law.

Not acknowledging that cultures in certain regions tolerate a greater degree of abuse is only going to make any intergration efforts worse. The more you try and overly protect them, the more anger you will generate among the moderates.

Find once instance in this thread of me trying to overly protect them. Or are you fighting against an imagined left-wing college activist stereotype?

[K. A. Pital]

According to the law they can be kicked out if they commit a crime that is worth 3 years in prison. Most of the crimes in Cologne probably do not fit this bill. And even then it can be difficult. So unless you propose disasembling equality before the law there is probably no way to kick most of these people out.

That's actually not so simple. If you are caught on some types of minor offense (and I don't think sexual assault with collusion - which is by all means a circumstance that makes the crime heavier! - is a minor offense), your AT (residence permit) simply will not get renewed the next time you have to renew it at the Foreigner Affairs Agency.

In case of approved asylum seekers that would be in 3 years. In case the crimes are numerous, it is likely it will not get renewed even after special pleading. Then the person has no choice but to try and remain illegally or be deported.

[salm]

According to the law they can be kicked out if they commit a crime that is worth 3 years in prison. Most of the crimes in Cologne probably do not fit this bill. And even then it can be difficult. So unless you propose disasembling equality before the law there is probably no way to kick most of these people out.

That's actually not so simple. If you are caught on some types of minor offense (and I don't think sexual assault with collusion - which is by all means a circumstance that makes the crime heavier! - is a minor offense), your AT (residence permit) simply will not get renewed the next time you have to renew it at the Foreigner Affairs Agency.

In case of approved asylum seekers that would be in 3 years. In case the crimes are numerous, it is likely it will not get renewed even after special pleading. Then the person has no choice but to try and remain illegally or be deported.

The way I understand it this also depends a lot on how long the person is here. If he´s here for more than three years it will be more difficult to deport him. After seven years it is even more difficult as he will then be granted a permantent permit.
And in the end it is difficult/impossible to deport people if they face immediate danger in their home country. If this is the case with the criminals in cologne we don´t know.
In fact I don´t think we know if they´re refugees at all. Even though there are clues strongly hinting towards an involvment of refugees we should wait until there is definite evidence.

[K. A. Pital]

I can quickly quote the BAMF on this:

Nach den drei Jahren wird eine unbefristete Niederlassungserlaubnis erteilt, wenn das Bundesamt für Migration und Flüchtlinge der Ausländerbehörde mitgeteilt hat, dass die Asylberechtigung bzw. die Flüchtlingsfeststellung nicht zu widerrufen oder zurückzunehmen ist. Ein Widerruf oder eine Rücknahme der positiven Entscheidung kann auch später noch erfolgen, wenn die Voraussetzungen hierfür vorliegen; die Entscheidung darüber liegt (sofern keine schwerwiegenden strafrechtlich relevanten Gründe vorliegen) im Ermessen des Bundesamtes.

Basically, it is up to the BAMF to decide whether to give a refugee permanent residence or not after three years. In fact, the BAMF can even decide against giving an NE in case there are just "doubts" - and much more so when there are actual reasons to deny the permanent residence.

Needless to say, this is even more harsh on the legal immigrants. They have to wait a minimum of 5 years until permanent residence, which can be denied in case the BAMF official thinks your income situation is not "stable" - which, in the case of some very strict departments in NRW, for example, can mean only an unlimited full-time job contract after the expiration of the 6-month trial period.

So when legal skilled immigrants (who as of now are required to have a wage over 40000 annually to be even considered seriously by the BAMF when issuing work visas; a lesser wage is good grounds for automatic denial of entry) are facing such discrimination...

[salm]

And further the BAMF writes:

Ist ein Abschiebungsverbot festgestellt, darf keine Abschiebung in den Staat erfolgen, für den dieses Abschiebungsverbot gilt.

Translation: If a prohibition of deportion is determined it is illegal to deport people to the countries for which this prohibition is valid.

And a further link:
BAMF

Ein Abschiebungsverbot gem. § 60 Abs. 7 AufenthG ist zu gewähren, wenn dem Ausländer bei Rückkehr in den Zielstaat eine erhebliche individuelle Gefahr oder extreme allgemeine Gefahr droht.

Translation: A prohibition according to §60 Abs. 7 AufenthG is to be granted if the foreigner faces severe individual danger or extreme general danger when retruning to his home country.

[ray245]

But Ray, this isn't a cultural norm from Syria. It's people being twats, and while I disagree with edi's internet tough guy act, he's right that such behaviour is not tolerated there either. Let them feel the weight of a German law book as for anyone who acts like that.

I'm not saying it's a cultural norm in Syria and Iraq to assault women so publicly. I don't think there is any culture that would tolerate such an act.

However, things like gender discrimination can have a massive impact on the investigation of such crime in those areas. An environment that is less willingly to take action or listen to women who have been sexually assaulted creates an environment where those men feel confident in getting away from the law.

Not acknowledging that cultures in certain regions tolerate a greater degree of abuse is only going to make any intergration efforts worse. The more you try and overly protect them, the more anger you will generate among the moderates.

Find once instance in this thread of me trying to overly protect them. Or are you fighting against an imagined left-wing college activist stereotype?

I'm not directing it at you. I'm directing this against a number of newspapers and the mayor because they give the impression that they are trying to cover things up. Having stories of those committing sexual assaults taunting the police because they are Syrians is only giving the far-right more fuel.

It' is sad that the refugees are being held to a much higher moral standards and code of behavouir than the locals, but that is something that will always happen when they are the minority.

[wautd]

It' is sad that the refugees are being held to a much higher moral standards and code of behavouir than the locals

Well, showing a little respect and bit of gratitude would be somewhat expected after receiving the hospitality shown by the Germans. Starting to run amok and molesting girls is quite the opposite and is one of the main reasons why I'm appalled by this news.

[ray245]

Well, showing a little respect and bit of gratitude would be somewhat expected after receiving the hospitality shown by the Germans. Starting to run amok and molesting girls is quite the opposite and is one of the main reasons why I'm appalled by this news.

Not all refugee care about this to be honest. There is a minority of people that are more than happy to abuse the system for their personal gain. And it is near impossible to figure them out that easily when the processing for refugees is so difficult.

I'm not surprised by this to be honest. The easier it is for people to run into Germany, the easier it is for some assholes to ruin the goodwill by taking advantage of the generosity.

[K. A. Pital]

If a prohibition of deportion is determined it is illegal to deport people to the countries for which this prohibition is valid.

Deportation to the country of origin is not the only type of deportation, though, salm. It is possible to deport a foreigner to "safe third states" (Drittstaaten), especially as people coming through these states cannot count on having a legal right to asylum.

[salm]

If a prohibition of deportion is determined it is illegal to deport people to the countries for which this prohibition is valid.

Deportation to the country of origin is not the only type of deportation, though, salm. It is possible to deport a foreigner to "safe third states" (Drittstaaten), especially as people coming through these states cannot count on having a legal right to asylum.

How would that work in the current example? Lets say you have some criminal who happens to a be a refugee from Syria. The crime he commited makes it possible to deport him.
Would it be possible to deport him to Syria directly? Due to the civil war it is rather dangerous there but I don´t know if that fits the "extreme danger" requirement.
If it is impossible to deport him to Syria, where else would we deport him to? Who would take him? The country he entered when he entered the EU? That doesn´t sound useful as he could come back to Germany rather easily and Greece/Italy/Whoever probably doesn´t want him. Do we pay Turkey to take our criminals?

[K. A. Pital]

That depends. There are classes of refugees. Those with a deportation prohibition are not refugees, according to the law. They entered via safe third states and therefore receive only a prohibition to deport them to Syria or Iraq, but not necessarily a full asylum right. The asylum right is itself something that not all refugees have.

[salm]

So where would be deport whom to?

[K. A. Pital]

Can't say what sort of deportation procedure Merkel has in mind when she spoke about easing deportations, but it could be one of the options you described (either the EU "safe entry" state they passed on the way to Germany or, well, Turkey).

[LaCroix]

Stupid question - would they be deported instead or after serving jail time?

For to me, if they just get deported, but serve no time, they would 'get away with it'.

[cosmicalstorm]

An excerpt that made me nod in agreement at least.


SAIRA KHAN: As an Asian woman, I know misogyny all too well
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/artic ... -well.html

"Understanding how African and Asian men view and treat women in their own countries is crucial when dealing with the migrant crisis – because only when we understand their cultural practices can we help them to integrate. They need to understand that women are deemed equal to men in Western societies.
Here in the West, we need to stop burying our heads in the sand and accept that Asian, Arab and African men grow up in societies where misogyny is the cultural norm. We need to talk about it so we can change it.
Ignoring it, like the BBC did, is just condoning it. If we are allowing people to come in, we must also make sure that we are not blinded by some truths which are hard to swallow.
It is a betrayal of the truth, of the majority of decent migrants and – most of all – of women who must not see progress turned back for the sake of accommodating a medieval world view."

[cosmicalstorm]

Planned in advance on a large scale? This is getting bizarre


Germany's Justice Minister Heiko Maas was the latest high-profile politician to speak out about the string of sexual assaults in Cologne on Sunday. In an interview with the popular "Bild am Sonntag" newspaper, Maas voiced his suspicions that the crimes which have the whole country reeling were not the result of an opportunistic mob mentality but a thought-out, planned attack on the city's women.

"No one can tell me that it wasn't coordinated and prepared," the minister said. "My suspicion is that this specific date was picked, and a certain number of people expected. This would again add another dimension [to the crimes]."

Germany
German Justice Minister: Cologne attacks planned in advance

Minister of Justice Heiko Maas has said he believes the sexual assaults in Cologne were 'coordinated and prepared' ahead of time. He also accused xenophobic groups of using the crimes to stir up hatred.
Heiko Maas SPD

Germany's Justice Minister Heiko Maas was the latest high-profile politician to speak out about the string of sexual assaults in Cologne on Sunday. In an interview with the popular "Bild am Sonntag" newspaper, Maas voiced his suspicions that the crimes which have the whole country reeling were not the result of an opportunistic mob mentality but a thought-out, planned attack on the city's women.

"No one can tell me that it wasn't coordinated and prepared," the minister said. "My suspicion is that this specific date was picked, and a certain number of people expected. This would again add another dimension [to the crimes]."

The newspaper provided details from official police reports citing the use of social networks by some north African migrant communities to encourage their fellows to join them in the square between the Cologne train station and the cathedral, where the now hundreds of incidents of molestation and pick-pocketing took place.

Maas was careful to echo his colleagues, however, when it came to warning the public against placing blame on the country's immigrants, saying "to assume from somebody's origin whether or not they are delinquent is quite reckless." The minister added that it is "complete nonsense" to take these crimes as evidence that foreigners cannot be integrated into German society.

Maas lashes out at PEGIDA, AfD

In the interview, Maas also accused the far-right populists of the Alternative for Germany (AfD) party, along with the organizers of the xenophobic PEGIDA marches, of using Cologne for propaganda purposes.

"There is the only way they can explain how shamelessly they operate their sweeping campaign against foreigners," Maas said, referring to Saturday's PEGIDA demonstration at the Cologne train station, which was itself met with a flashmob of counter-protesters condemning racism and sexism.

All that being said, Maas added that "cultural background justifies or excuses nothing. There is no acceptable explanation [for the assaults]. For us, men and women have equal rights in all matters. Everyone who lives here must accept that."

In the coming days, Maas' Social Democrats (SPD) are expected to join coalition partners, Chancellor Angela Merkel's (CDU) in presenting new laws to the Bundestag that would expedite the deportation of asylum seekers and migrants who commit crimes . The administration has received a hefty amount of criticism for ill-preparedness when dealing with the open-door policy it has adopted towards Europe's migrant crisis.

Watch video 01:28
Cologne: Police put stop to Pegida demo

es/ng (AFP, KNA)
DW recommends
Cologne New Year assault reports more than double in number

Cologne police have said the number of women coming forward with complaints that they were assaulted on New Year's Eve has risen to 379. A large minority of the reported crimes were said to be of a sexual nature. (09.01.2016)
Frustration, division apparent as police end Cologne protests

Members of the anti-Islam PEGIDA movement have vented their anger in Cologne at Germany's migrant policies, clashing with police and counter-protesters following a series of New Year's Eve sexual assaults and robberies. (09.01.2016)
German police fire water cannons to disperse protesters amid clashes in Cologne

Police in the western German city of Cologne have broken up a protest by the "anti-Islamization" group PEGIDA. Water cannons were used to disperse demonstrators protesting after the New Year's Eve attacks on women. (09.01.2016)

http://www.dw.com/en/german-justice-min ... a-18969653

[salm]

Stupid question - would they be deported instead or after serving jail time?

For to me, if they just get deported, but serve no time, they would 'get away with it'.

IMO they should serve their time and be deported afterwards.
In reality it appears to be complicated and a lot of different scenarios exist.
Iin some cases where contracts exist some can serve their time in their home countries.
In other cases they might be deported after half of their time served. This apparently happens when it is clear that they would be released from prison after two thirds of their sentence anyway. This is done after balancing punishment vs. cost.
There are some other ways to I guess it all comes down to the specific case.

[K. A. Pital]

Deporting people from the First World is enough of a punisment, as I see it. Deporting and black-stamping the passports is essentially a way to exclude people from ever immigrating into the First World and staying there. A jail sentence on top of this could be necessary in some cases, but I don't think deportation is "getting away with it". Considering the absolutely immense life standard gap between the First World and the Third World, which most of Middle East is like, it looks more like a banishment from paradise.

Also - "safe third countries" does not actually mean they are safe countries with a high standard of life and low risks. It only means that they are safe for the survival of that particular person; that he/she would not be taking greater risks to life and limb there than the average citizen of said country. There are many degrees of horribleness, and not all of them must necessarily include civil war.

[Thanas]

You really can't deport the assholes involved because they, being worthless scum, will not be taken back by Syria anyway, or if the Syrians do take them, then they will be tortured or killed or drafted to the front immediately.

So Germany is in a catch-22 - it cannot deport them and has to continue to provide them with a living, or break the law.

[K. A. Pital]

Well, there's a difference between Asylberechtigte (people with rights to asylum) and people whose asylum application is being processed, especially if the latter arrived through a safe third country. In that case, not only is it very likely that no right to asylum would be granted (at most, a probition of deportation to specific territories, like Syria or Iraq), but it is also very likely that the person could be sent back to the safe third country through which he passed on the way.

[Thanas]

Since Greece and Italy have basically stopped registering people, good luck trying to prove through which country they entered.

Since their bureaucracies are slow and inefficient, good luck with making official enquiries if refugees just throw away their papers.

Besides, Greece and Italy would never take them back. There is a big difference between EU states having to do something and actually doing something, see for example the refugee relocation scheme.

[K. A. Pital]

There are stamps in passports. Unless the passports were thrown away, of course, but since that itself leads to a bunch of problems for potential refugees, I heard that people tend to avoid doing that. No hard statistics, though. And I am sure neither Italy nor Greece, nor Eastern European nations or even Austria want them "back", but if the person receives a prohibition to return to Germany and a one-way ticked to said nation, there is not much they can do to stop such a turn of events either (as border controls aren't there).