What's the Dominion's future?

[FTeik]

Where does it say, that the Dominion was aware and preparing for war against the Federation even before the wormhole was discovered (in canon-material, not background-information)?

Because if we go from what is seen in "The Jem'Hadar", the Dominion would have been completely happy to leave the AQ-solids to their own devices, if those pesky Federation-solids had stayed on their side of the wormhole. Only after the events of "The Search" did they seem to start to see the Federation as "a problem to be solved".
If we go by that, then the Dominion archived at least its original goal of being left alone by the end of the war, while the AQ-powers (especially the more war-like ones) are severely weakened and in no condition to conduct an invasion of their own any time soon, while the centre(s) of Dominion-power remain intact.

The argument about the technological advancement on the Federation-side against little to none advancement on the Dominoin-side during the war doesn't count, in my opinion. On the Dominion-side the war was fought by the equivalent of an expeditionary force, that was allied with/based in the territory of the AQ-equivalent of a secondary or even tertiary military and scientific power (and one, that was recovering from a devastating invasion by the Klingons at the time). Barely one year after establishing their beachhead they were cut of from their home-base, with no access to their reinforcements or research and development-centres and yet they still were in a position, where they would have won the war if the Cardassians hadn't switched sides (and the hostilities were brought to an end, thanks to Bashir and Odo delivering the cure to the virus).

How successful can Odo be in convincing the Founders that peaceful co-existence with solids is possible. That might depend on how much of the xenophobic/bellingerent tendencies of the Founders are actually an expression of the Female Founders convictions and believes (she seems to have a leading position with the Dominion). It would certainly be interesting to see, how the situation develops with her influence gone. In that scenario Odo might have a chance. Because as unflexible as the opinions/attitudes of the Fonders are compared to their shapes, they can be changed (as Odo demonstrates and he himself is pretty stubborn).

[NecronLord]

Where does it say, that the Dominion was aware and preparing for war against the Federation even before the wormhole was discovered (in canon-material, not background-information)?

To my knowledge, it's only been stated by the writers (various) in sources including the commentaries on the Season 3 DVD.

Because if we go from what is seen in "The Jem'Hadar", the Dominion would have been completely happy to leave the AQ-solids to their own devices, if those pesky Federation-solids had stayed on their side of the wormhole. Only after the events of "The Search" did they seem to start to see the Federation as "a problem to be solved".

The point of their actions in "The Jem'hadar" was to plant Eris, a Vorta operative, in the Federation, presumably to supply disinformation about the Dominion.

Of course, that doesn't mean they had plans for an extended war at that point.

If we go by that, then the Dominion archived at least its original goal of being left alone by the end of the war, while the AQ-powers (especially the more war-like ones) are severely weakened and in no condition to conduct an invasion of their own any time soon, while the centre(s) of Dominion-power remain intact.

Agreed.

The argument about the technological advancement on the Federation-side against little to none advancement on the Dominoin-side during the war doesn't count, in my opinion. On the Dominion-side the war was fought by the equivalent of an expeditionary force, that was allied with/based in the territory of the AQ-equivalent of a secondary or even tertiary military and scientific power (and one, that was recovering from a devastating invasion by the Klingons at the time). Barely one year after establishing their beachhead they were cut of from their home-base, with no access to their reinforcements or research and development-centres and yet they still were in a position, where they would have won the war if the Cardassians hadn't switched sides (and the hostilities were brought to an end, thanks to Bashir and Odo delivering the cure to the virus).

And frankly, there's no reason to think the Dominion aren't out there, having adventures of their own, and making discoveries of their own. The Founders are bad people, but the religious reverence to the Founders doesn't actually make the Vorta scientists bad at their jobs, the Founders do factually exist, and make no unscientific claims in myth; the only myth we hear of is the origin story of the Vorta, and it is wholly scientifically plausible:

WEYOUN: It's the Founders' way of making sure we remember our past. You must know the story of how the Founders created the Vorta?
ODO: No, but I have the feeling you're going to tell me all about it.
WEYOUN: The Vorta used to be quite different from what we are today. We were forest dwellers. Small, timid, ape-like creatures living in hollowed out trees.
ODO: Eating nuts and berries.
WEYOUN: And living in fear of the many predators that would hunt us for food. One day, a wounded changeling came stumbling through the forest fleeing from a mob of angry solids.
ODO: Why were they chasing him?
WEYOUN: What does it matter? Solids have always feared and distrusted shape-shifters, you know that. Well, a family of Vorta hid the changeling from his pursuers. And in return for saving his life, the changeling promised the Vorta that one day we would be transformed into powerful beings. That we would become an important part of a great new empire that would stretch across the Galaxy.
ODO: And the changeling kept his word.
WEYOUN: That's right. Imagine, Odo. My people were once little more than apes, and look at us now. Look at what you've done for us.
ODO: If the story were true, it would at least prove that my people are capable of generosity and kindness.

Dominion member worlds maintain some internal autonomy, produce their own technologies which the Dominion can use (Karemma missiles for instance) and have their own technology and industry, so there's no reason to assume they're not good at technical progress, unlike say the Klingons (culturally disparage certain occupations), or the Bajorans.

They have the scientific method, and mount voyages of exploration, including the centuries long 'mission' they sent baby Odo on, which while alien (but then, it doesn't seem to have stunted Odo's emotional development meaningfully). Nor is the Hundred Chuldren approach necessarily unlikely to yield scientific benefits; for all we know, one of the hundred children ended up on Thasia (TOS: Charlie X - god-aliens give a human child their powers and send him back to the Federation) and will one day bring the knowledge of thier godlike powers back to the Founders.

The Dominion was originally conceived as an 'Anti-Federation' and broadly speaking, possesses many of the Federation's strengths.

I'd love to know why people think the Dominion will develop technologies slower than the Federation, other than 'we see more Federation adventures.'

How successful can Odo be in convincing the Founders that peaceful co-existence with solids is possible. That might depend on how much of the xenophobic/bellingerent tendencies of the Founders are actually an expression of the Female Founders convictions and believes (she seems to have a leading position with the Dominion). It would certainly be interesting to see, how the situation develops with her influence gone. In that scenario Odo might have a chance. Because as unflexible as the opinions/attitudes of the Fonders are compared to their shapes, they can be changed (as Odo demonstrates and he himself is pretty stubborn).

It occurs to me that if the Founders frequent statements that they care more for the wellbeing of one of their own than the entire Alpha Quadrant are correct, it may be that they really don't agree with Odo but literally don't care to crush the Alpha Quadrant once the wormhole is open again, simply because it would be emotionally damaging to Odo. Especially if Kira, commanding DS9 now, died.

It's not like the losses of Jem'hadar or the Vorta in the war are very relevant to the Founders; though presumably they're pissed off about Founder-Gowron dying.

[FaxModem1]

Founder-Martok, as Gowron was just his sleazy, power-hungry self the whole time.

[Solauren]

I see things going like this:

The Founders decide to humor Odo, and try the co-existence with solids thing. For three reasons
#1 - Odo has never really ran into any hostility when he was in the AQ, except from the Klingons when the Klingons were all war-paranoid prior to invading the Cardassian Union.
#2 - Odo just saved their species from extinction
#3 - The solids in the AQ could have said 'Oh, hell no' to curing the Great Link, and with good reason, but said 'No, our values say you have a right to live, and we are not going to let a rogue element of our society kill you'.

In other words, the AQ has earned the benefit of the doubt, as did Odo.

However, at the same time, they are going to keep their military production, etc, at the same levels, if not increase them. They probably still have enemies.


It then becomes in the Dominions best interest to do a little internal and external retooling.

Internal Retooling
Increase ship production, improved existing and research new technologies. i.e Shields against the Prophets powers within the Wormhole.
Possibly some governing differences to their various member-planets to give them a little more 'freedom' and make them more useful.

External Retooling
Learning the political game when you are not stringing people along before you send in a fleet of Jem'ha'dar warships to conquer them.
Possibly fortifying the Gamma Quadrant side of the wormhole with their own space station.


I can also see the Dominion, if they continue expansion in the GQ, eventually doing what the commentaries from the DS9 DVDs said and eventually expanding all the way to the AQ and bypassing the wormhole all together.

However, I don't see them going to war with the UFP until they can bypass or shield themselves from the Wormhole, and until the situation warranted it.

[Zor]

The Dominion is an old fashioned Empire based around a central authority which rules over various vassal planets through fear of military force, extracting resources from them to support it's war machine. The campaign in the alpha quadrant has been a costly one, achieving none of it's desired goals and showing that it is not invincible. As such I would not be surprised if there is an increased level of unrest in the Dominion.

Zor

[NecronLord]

Err, check your numbers. The Dominion set up shipyards and cloning facilities in the Alpha Quadrant that wholly replaced its losses at various points when cut off from the Gamma Quadrant. Their industry in the Gamma Quadrant must be amazing. I am not sure why it's going to be notably costly.

They're not going to fall any more than the Romans fell after defeats by the Parthians or Kushite kingdoms. Their centers of industry are wholly unaffected.

If there's unrest, just send in the Jem'hadar. Let the rebels discover that without gods to save them like the Federation, things have not changed.

[Imperial Overlord]

Considering the arms length relationship between the Dominion authorities and the people they govern, its quite possible that most of the Dominion's subjects don't know a major war occurred, let alone the outcome.

[Prometheus Unbound]

Considering the arms length relationship between the Dominion authorities and the people they govern, its quite possible that most of the Dominion's subjects don't know a major war occurred, let alone the outcome.

The Karama and Dosi trade with them - The Karama manufacture their weapons ... I'd imagine some of them knew.

[Iroscato]

The Federation made some major advances in technology throughout the course of the DW, and their advances through the 22nd - 24th century were similarly impressive overall. I believe it was said that the Dominion had existed for what, 2000 years? Compare that to the Federation's 200 and change years of existence, and it's clear which one is developing faster. Technology doesn't necessarily equate to military dominance, but I would guess that were the Dominion to try a second invasion of the AQ, the Federation would be much better prepared for it, and would most likely be able to hold them off under its own power. The longer the Dominion left it, the harder it would be to gain a foothold.

[Eternal_Freedom]

I question whether the Federation's advances between TOS and TNG really are as impressive as claimed. The only new thing that appears are quantum torpedoes, everything else is, at most, modifications or derivations of existing designs.

And to prove this, we have Geordi's quote from "Relics" while talking to Scotty that (I'm remembering this, so it's not word-for-word) saying that impulse engines haven't changed in ~100 years, nor have transporters.

Add to this what NecronLord already noted, the vast numbers of Excelsiors and Mirandas still in service 80+ years after those classes first appeared (hell, a refit Connie appears in one of the early Dominion War battles) and despite the myth of Mirands dying easily they perform admirably in frontline combat.

[Prometheus Unbound]

And to prove this, we have Geordi's quote from "Relics" while talking to Scotty that (I'm remembering this, so it's not word-for-word) saying that impulse engines haven't changed in ~100 years, nor have transporters.

He said the "underlying principles haven't changed in... a hundred years".


Neither has that of the horseless carriage.

[Iroscato]

I question whether the Federation's advances between TOS and TNG really are as impressive as claimed. The only new thing that appears are quantum torpedoes, everything else is, at most, modifications or derivations of existing designs.

And to prove this, we have Geordi's quote from "Relics" while talking to Scotty that (I'm remembering this, so it's not word-for-word) saying that impulse engines haven't changed in ~100 years, nor have transporters.

Add to this what NecronLord already noted, the vast numbers of Excelsiors and Mirandas still in service 80+ years after those classes first appeared (hell, a refit Connie appears in one of the early Dominion War battles) and despite the myth of Mirands dying easily they perform admirably in frontline combat.

My underlying point is that the Federation has existed for around 10% as long as the Dominion, and when the two powers first meet they are already roughly evenly matched technologically. The Federation has utilised time far better than the Dominion in advancing its capabilities. I'll concede that the post-TOS era was one of relative complacency though, but by Q did they get their arses moving again once the veil was pulled back a little to reveal the Borg and Dominion.

By the late 24th century the Federation was experimenting with shit like transwarp, phasing cloaks, sentient holographic life-forms, and probably a lot of other stuff that I could look up if I wasn't such a lazy bastard.

[Eternal_Freedom]

The transwarp is something I can't recall being mentioned in 24th-century times. The phase cloak was a one-shot wonder that ended badly and never went beyond a prototype. As for the sentient holograms, every case I can think of (except Vic Fontaine, who wasn't a Federation project) were cases of the system running in an unexpected way (Moriarty) or for long enough that the holograms became sentient on their own (the EMH).

Prometheus: I pulled up the episode, and Geordi says "I was just thinking that a lot of these systems haven't changed much in the last 75 years...this transporter is basically the same system we use on the Enterprise...subspace radio and sensors still operate on the same basic principle...impulse engine design hasn't changed much in the last 200 years."

I'll concede the subspace radio and sensors part, but the rest is, I think, telling that Federation technology clearly hasn't advanced as far as some would like to think.

Now I'm not saying it hasn't advanced, but they have (mostly) just expanded and improved upon existing designs rather than create anything radically new.

As for the Federation using it's time better than the Dominion, I wonder if that is a result of circumstance rather than capability. The Dominion hasn't (AFAIK) had a peer-competitor in the Gamma Quadrant for, well, ever really, so there is little impetus to drive forwards, especially given the fairly rigid society of the Dominion. The Federation, in contrast a) had help from the Vulcans, Andorians and other nations that had been spacefaring powers for considerably longer and b) was forced o develop hard and fast, being surrounded by aggressive and bellicose people like the Klingons and Romulans.

[Iroscato]

Yeah, maybe the Dominion had a much faster advancement period in its early days, before consolidating its power over the GQ and slowing down. It can be seen as a twisted version of the Federation in some ways.
An interesting wrinkle would be the consequences of Voyager receiving technology from the alternate future timeline in Endgame. Transphasic torpedoes and ablative armour generators were enough to curbstomp the fucking Borg, imagine that tech being rolled out across Starfleet over the next decade or so. That's assuming it wouldn't just be locked away by the brass for years on end. Pity there's next to no canon peek into what happens at the turn of the 25th century. I hope the new series picks up around that time and shows us what's been going on.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Well there is a wrinkle with the future-tech from Endgame; namely the Queen assimilating Admiral Janeway and, to quote her "your armour technology." Now sure the Unicomplex took a hefty beating thanks to that virus and to quote Seven "the transwarp network has been obliterated," but it has not to my knowledge been confirmed that they were actually wiped out. So you have a weakened Borg that knows how the armour works and judging from the pounding Voyager was taking from that sphere at the end (compared to the group of cubes earlier) they found a way to hurt the armour.

[NecronLord]

My underlying point is that the Federation has existed for around 10% as long as the Dominion, and when the two powers first meet they are already roughly evenly matched technologically. The Federation has utilised time far better than the Dominion in advancing its capabilities. I'll concede that the post-TOS era was one of relative complacency though, but by Q did they get their arses moving again once the veil was pulled back a little to reveal the Borg and Dominion.

By the late 24th century the Federation was experimenting with shit like transwarp, phasing cloaks, sentient holographic life-forms, and probably a lot of other stuff that I could look up if I wasn't such a lazy bastard.

Earth has been space travelling for a few centuries. Vulcans have been at it for millennia. Surak lived around 2000 BC according to various episodes, and in others, the Romulans left in the age of Surak. At the very least the P'Jem monastery, offworld from Vulcan, had been standing for thousands of years.

They're only one federation member, of course. Andorians have been

So no, the Federation tech base is that of a culture that has been traveling interstellar for millennia.

Also, transwarp doesn't work, holodecks are a technology the Dominion might or might not have, and the phase cloak is something that keeps killing people that try to use it (both the Romulan and Federation examples did not go well)

Though, as a bonus, what makes you think that the phase cloak beyond dominion technology? The Dominion has a functionally similar (yes, they use the subspace buzzword instead of the phase buzzword, but it's an intangible thing that moves about) technology they use for an anti-personnel mine.

Likewise for 'transphasic torpedos,' the dominion has a phased polaron beam as its main weapon. For that matter, given that they can detect cloaked ships, and use a 'phased' weapon as their primary armament, perhaps approaching their ships with a phase cloak on is just like using a normal cloak - they see right through it and you have no shields.

[Prometheus Unbound]

You know what half the acronym PHASER is too, right?

[NecronLord]

Yes, but never is that said to fire a 'phased X beam' - of course, there's no evidence that transphasics are anything but the same thing as a photon with a bigger bang, set to yellow, and sometimes with a slight time delay either.

Also, of course, a phaser is used in Voyager to disperse a phase shift and render the phase shifted people vulnerable to conventional force. So yeah, maybe Phasers are good for that, does anyone in canon actually say a phaser can't hurt a phase shifted ship? They're described as:

LAFORGE: It's supposed to change the structure of matter so it can pass through normal matter and energy. Hang on a second. A few years back, we got intelligence reports that the Klingons were working on trying to combine a phase inverter and a cloaking device. In theory, they believed that a phased ship could hide anywhere, even inside a planet, and that conventional weapons would be useless against it.

When Seven of Nine uses borg knowledge to set a phaser correctly - IE it's a sensor issue - she's able to just blast people right back into phase with it.

The Dominion have superior sensors.

It may be wholly worthless against them.

[Prometheus Unbound]

Yes, but never is that said to fire a 'phased X beam' - of course, there's no evidence that transphasics are anything but the same thing as a photon with a bigger bang, set to yellow, and sometimes with a slight time delay either.

Also, of course, a phaser is used in Voyager to disperse a phase shift and render the phase shifted people vulnerable to conventional force. So yeah, maybe Phasers are good for that, does anyone in canon actually say a phaser can't hurt a phase shifted ship? They're described as invulnerable, but maybe that's just hyperbole (it in fact almost certainly must be).

it's a phased "nadion" discharge. Those "nadions" are some sort of particle. That much we can piece from canon (please don't ask me which episodes hehe - Tuvok has mentioned Nadions a couple of times, Picard called them a "particle weapon", "PH(AS)er" is it's name...



They can also be set to "green" and "blue", as well as "blueyellowblueyelloewblueyellow" in TBOBW

[NecronLord]

Actually I believe the 'phased' bit is not mentioned on screen, though phase pistols are called phase pistols, of course.

And as above, phasers are effective against phase cloaks, and the Dominion are known to equip their ships to engage cloaked ships. A phase cloak might be wholly worthless against them, just like a regular cloaking device is. Plus of course, there's no sign that phase-cloak is going to work (for the Federation {who have banned it} or the Klingons/Romulans, any time soon) it's just another anti-dominion weapon that would hypothetically be useful if ever they actually were able to deploy it.

Also, shorten your signature a couple of lines please.

[NecronLord]

I need to post a retraction; the battle of Procyon V in Enterprise features a re-use of the CGI/prop for the Dauntless which strongly implies that the Federation has adopted the design of the Species 116 ship, presumably its shape is defined by slipstream, so that would imply they have at least some slipstream ships at that point.

Of course, the other ships apart from the Enterprise J, are old (much like Mirandas in the Dominion War) so may not have it.

It was obviously done for out of universe cost reasons, but accepting the on-screen evidence as definitive, that's clearly a slipstream ship.

Of course such a focus on background ships if applied rigorously results in the Karemma already being in the Delta Quadrant (not mind you, impossible if they're prepared to commit to multi-decade journeys) and other such hinkiness.

[Prometheus Unbound]

Also, shorten your signature a couple of lines please.

I've had it for 9 years and now you decide it's too long?

I suppose it is one whole line larger than Eternal_Freedom's. Obviously a "do as i say, not as i do" rule from the mods.

But sure, if it really bothers you, I'll remove it.


EDIT



It's actually the shitty forum software rather than my sig - I only had one space between each line, when I went to edit it.

[Borgholio]

Regarding your sig, it does recently seem to have increased in size...more blank lines between them.

[Prometheus Unbound]

Regarding your sig, it does recently seem to have increased in size...more blank lines between them.

See above - it's phpBB not me - there was one space between each line when I went to edit it. I set it 9 years ago and haven't looked at the SD.net control panel since then as I've had only one PM in all my time here

And i didn't read it.

I also have no idea what it looked like as I disabled signatures a long time ago.

I'll admit I can be quite sad and sometimes a little snippy in my posts. And do occasionally post to annoy others if I think I can get away with it. But a subtle increase in signature size over a period of weeks / months is beyond my ability to give a damn

[Eternal_Freedom]

Also, shorten your signature a couple of lines please.

I've had it for 9 years and now you decide it's too long?

I suppose it is one whole line larger than Eternal_Freedom's. Obviously a "do as i say, not as i do" rule from the mods.

Don't bring me into this, I'm only a minimod for a quiet subforum, I have no say in anything important