Obama's final State of the Union

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Obama's final State of the Union

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http://www.cnn.com/2016/01/12/politics/ ... index.html
Obama regrets not unifying America and 4 other State of the Union takeaways
Eric Bradner
By Eric Bradner, CNN
Updated 1:05 PM ET, Wed January 13, 2016 | Video Source: CNN

Now Playing Obama opens with Iowa...

US President Barack Obama speaks during the State of the Union Address during a Joint Session of Congress at the US Capitol in Washington, DC, January 12, 2016. Barack Obama will give his final State of the Union address Tuesday, perhaps the last big opportunity of his presidency to sway a national audience and frame the 2016 election race. AFP PHOTO / SAUL LOEB / AFP / SAUL LOEB (Photo credit should read SAUL LOEB/AFP/Getty Images)
Obama: 'It should be easier to vote, not harder'
WASHINGTON, DC - JANUARY 12: U.S. President Barack Obama acknowledges applause during the State of the Union speech before members of Congress in the House chamber of the U.S. Capitol January 12, 2016 in Washington, DC. In his last State of the Union, President Obama reflected on the past seven years in office and spoke on topics including climate change, gun control, immigration and income inequality. (Photo by Chip Somodevilla/Getty Images)
'Let's make America the country that cures cancer'
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Groans follow Obama's social security remark
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Obama to terrorists: Justice will be done
President Barack Obama delivers his State of the Union address to a joint session of Congress on Capitol Hill in Washington, Tuesday, Jan. 12, 2016. (AP Photo/Evan Vucci)
Obama: System shouldn't be 'rigged' for the wealthy

Obama: 'Tonight we turn the page'
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Obama opens with Iowa zinger
US President Barack Obama speaks during the State of the Union Address during a Joint Session of Congress at the US Capitol in Washington, DC, January 12, 2016. Barack Obama will give his final State of the Union address Tuesday, perhaps the last big opportunity of his presidency to sway a national audience and frame the 2016 election race. AFP PHOTO / SAUL LOEB / AFP / SAUL LOEB (Photo credit should read SAUL LOEB/AFP/Getty Images)
Obama's final State of the Union in under two minutes
WASHINGTON, DC - JANUARY 12: U.S. President Barack Obama gestures as he delivers the State of the Union speech before members of Congress in the House chamber of the U.S. Capitol January 12, 2016 in Washington, DC. In his last State of the Union, President Obama reflected on the past seven years in office and spoke on topics including climate change, gun control, immigration and income inequality. (Photo by Mark Wilson/Getty Images)
Obama slams political rhetoric targeting Muslims
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Haley: 'There is more than enough blame to go around'
President Barack Obama delivers his State of the Union address before a joint session of Congress on Capitol Hill in Washington, Tuesday, Jan. 12, 2016. (AP Photo/Evan Vucci, Pool)
What does Obama regret about his presidency?
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What really happens during the President's address
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Gov. Haley: Obama's record 'falls short of his words'
US President Barack Obama speaks during the State of the Union Address during a Joint Session of Congress at the US Capitol in Washington, DC, January 12, 2016. Barack Obama will give his final State of the Union address Tuesday, perhaps the last big opportunity of his presidency to sway a national audience and frame the 2016 election race. AFP PHOTO / SAUL LOEB / AFP / SAUL LOEB (Photo credit should read SAUL LOEB/AFP/Getty Images)
Obama: 'It should be easier to vote, not harder'
WASHINGTON, DC - JANUARY 12: U.S. President Barack Obama acknowledges applause during the State of the Union speech before members of Congress in the House chamber of the U.S. Capitol January 12, 2016 in Washington, DC. In his last State of the Union, President Obama reflected on the past seven years in office and spoke on topics including climate change, gun control, immigration and income inequality. (Photo by Chip Somodevilla/Getty Images)
'Let's make America the country that cures cancer'
state of the union address congress social security 04_00003126.jpg
Groans follow Obama's social security remark
state of the union address congress social security 04_00003126.jpg
Obama to terrorists: Justice will be done
President Barack Obama delivers his State of the Union address to a joint session of Congress on Capitol Hill in Washington, Tuesday, Jan. 12, 2016. (AP Photo/Evan Vucci)
Obama: System shouldn't be 'rigged' for the wealthy

State of the Union: 69 years in 69 seconds
Story highlights
Obama expressed regret over his own role in Washington's dysfunction
He urged Washington to consider reforms to the political system
(CNN)President Barack Obama issued a final passionate plea to voters on Tuesday to bridge the divide in American politics after he leaves office.

In his last State of the Union address delivered to a Congress that has often hobbled his ambitions, Obama expressed regret over his own role in Washington's political dysfunction, and lambasted Republican presidential candidates who he said are adding to the trouble.

He also offered his pitch to fix it -- including structural reforms to a political system he said even those in Washington don't like.

Here are five takeaways from Obama's speech:

Obama's lament
He was the candidate of transformational change -- and then the president who led during an era of shutdowns, dysfunction and the erosion of the political center.

Obama admitted his disappointment.

What does Obama regret about his presidency?

What does Obama regret about his presidency? 01:29
"It's one of the few regrets of my presidency  --  that the rancor and suspicion between the parties has gotten worse instead of better," Obama said. "There's no doubt a president with the gifts of Lincoln or Roosevelt might have better bridged the divide, and I guarantee I'll keep trying to be better so long as I hold this office."


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He offered a prescription, saying it's about the process, not the people who are elected.

Obama pitched the removal of legislatures from redistricting; a reduction of the influence of money in politics; and laws that make it easier to vote.

Obama: 'It should be easier to vote, not harder'

Obama: 'It should be easier to vote, not harder' 01:04
He also admitted that accomplishing those reforms is harder than the idealism that put him on the national political map might suggest.

"What I'm asking for is hard. It's easier to be cynical; to accept that change isn't possible, and politics is hopeless, and to believe that our voices and actions don't matter," Obama said.

He added: "As frustration grows, there will be voices urging us to fall back into tribes, to scapegoat fellow citizens who don't look like us, or pray like us, or vote like we do, or share the same background. We can't afford to go down that path. It won't deliver the economy we want, or the security we want, but most of all, it contradicts everything that makes us the envy of the world."

On this topic, South Carolina Gov. Nikki Haley, who rebutted Obama's address. offered some support for the President.

"Often the best thing we can do is turn down the volume. When the sound is quieter, you can actually hear what someone else is saying," she said. "And that can make a world of difference."

Obama's Trump rebuttal
Obama denounced "political hot air." He said politicians who say the economy is sagging are "peddling fiction." He declared the United States "the most powerful nation on Earth. Period. It's not even close."

And if there was any remaining doubt he was talking about Donald Trump, Obama got even more specific.

Obama slams political rhetoric targeting Muslims

Obama slams political rhetoric targeting Muslims 01:15
"We need to reject any politics that targets people because of race or religion," Obama said in a not-very-veiled reference to Trump's proposal to ban all Muslims from entering the United States.

"This isn't a matter of political correctness. It's a matter of understanding what makes us strong," Obama said. "The world respects us not just for our arsenal; it respects us for our diversity and our openness and the way we respect every faith."

Obama wasn't the only one who bashed Trump, though.

Haley -- tapped by House Speaker Paul Ryan and Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell unloaded on the man who's leading the polls in her state's crucial Republican presidential primary.

"During anxious times, it can be tempting to follow the siren call of the angriest voices," Haley said. "We must resist that temptation. No one who is willing to work hard, abide by our laws, and love our traditions should ever feel unwelcome in this country."

Obama took a swing at other GOP candidates, too -- particularly Texas Sen. Ted Cruz, who has said he wants to carpet bomb ISIS to "see if sand glows in the dark."

Obama said: "The world will look to us to help solve these problems, and our answer needs to be more than tough talk or calls to carpet bomb civilians. That may work as a TV sound bite, but it doesn't pass muster on the world stage."

Obama the preacher
The moments Obama's supporters will most remember long after he's left office have been aspirational: His "red states" and "blue states" speech at the 2004 Democratic National Convention; his singing of "Amazing Grace" after the church shooting in Charleston, South Carolina.

Obama offered another on Tuesday night, harnessing his oratorical skills to call on Americans to put to use what Martin Luther King, Jr. called "voices of unarmed truth and unconditional love."

"I see it in the American who served his time, and dreams of starting over  --  and the business owner who gives him that second chance. The protester determined to prove that justice matters, and the young cop walking the beat, treating everybody with respect, doing the brave, quiet work of keeping us safe," Obama said.

"I see it in the soldier who gives almost everything to save his brothers, the nurse who tends to him 'til he can run a marathon, and the community that lines up to cheer him on.

"It's the son who finds the courage to come out as who he is, and the father whose love for that son overrides everything he's been taught.

"I see it in the elderly woman who will wait in line to cast her vote as long as she has to; the new citizen who casts his for the first time; the volunteers at the polls who believe every vote should count, because each of them in different ways know how much that precious right is worth."

Moonshot Joe
When he announced he wouldn't run for president, Vice President Joe Biden said he wants to see a "moonshot" to cure cancer in the United States.

Obama said he wants to give it to Biden -- whose son Beau, Delaware's attorney general, died of brain cancer last year -- and put his vice president "in charge of mission control."

'Let's make America the country that cures cancer'

'Let's make America the country that cures cancer' 02:39
"Last year, Vice President Biden said that with a new moonshot, America can cure cancer. Last month, he worked with this Congress to give scientists at the National Institutes of Health the strongest resources they've had in over a decade," Obama said.

"Tonight, I'm announcing a new national effort to get it done," he said. "And because he's gone to the mat for all of us, on so many issues over the past forty years, I'm putting Joe in charge of Mission Control. For the loved ones we've all lost, for the family we can still save, let's make America the country that cures cancer once and for all."

It was perhaps the only Obama policy pitch that drew strong applause from both sides of the aisle.

The cheers and smiles from Republican senators underscored the vice president's popularity on Capitol Hill, where he spent most of his adult life. It demonstrated why Biden has been able to do what Obama couldn't, playing an instrumental role in negotiating legislative deals with Congress to avert shutdowns and fund the government.

Ryan's stoicism
Americans accustomed to now-retired Speaker John Boehner's easy shows of emotion -- with tears flowing on many occasions -- might have been surprised to see the stone-cold expression on new Speaker Paul Ryan's face throughout Obama's speech.

Most of Ryan's words and gestures were toward Vice President Joe Biden, the man he debated on national television in 2012 when Ryan was Mitt Romney's choice as the Republican vice presidential candidate.

But he didn't react to Obama's policy talk -- nearly all of which was at odds with Ryan's priorities.

Obama: System shouldn't be 'rigged' for the wealthy

Obama: System shouldn't be 'rigged' for the wealthy 01:46
Obama did include an olive branch of sorts to Ryan, who recently apologized after characterizing the United States as full of "makers" and "takers." Ryan has said he hopes to address the issue of poverty while speaker.

"I also know Speaker Ryan has talked about his interest in tackling poverty. America is about giving everybody willing to work a hand up, and I'd welcome a serious discussion about strategies we can all support, like expanding tax cuts for low-income workers without kids," Obama said.



The reactions of Ryan and Biden were probably the best parts. It seemed the main parts of the speech were that Obama wants to push hard on cancer research, America's dominance, space travel and Americans not being discriminatory.
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Re: Obama's final State of the Union

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I watched all previous seven states of the Union, I watched Bushes since becoming politically active for real back in 2004... and I could not be bothered to tune into this one. You had your chance, it's all over but the election at this point.

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Re: Obama's final State of the Union

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No words about failing to deliver on his promises to close Gitmo, end torture/rendition and to restore the USA´ image in the world?
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Re: Obama's final State of the Union

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The best parts I recall were his evoking the Moon landings, his admission that he regrets that politics became more partisan, basically, under him (though I really think the bulk of the blame for that goes to the Right), his strong rebuke of people treating IS as an existential threat to the United States and fear mongering about them, and his attack in all but name on Donald Trump and other such bigots, where he pretty much compared attitudes like Trump's to the dictators we're fighting. Oh, and his rebuke of cynicism about democracy and politics near the end.

The worst part was when he was all but wanking off to American superiority and military power and bragging about killing Bin Laden.
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Re: Obama's final State of the Union

Post by Elheru Aran »

Meh. He made a few good points, but I don't think he's really convinced anything is going to change much before he leaves office. So it's mostly just hot air at this point as far as I'm concerned.
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Re: Obama's final State of the Union

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Thanas wrote:No words about failing to deliver on his promises to close Gitmo, end torture/rendition and to restore the USA´ image in the world?
Beware, it's Fox News
Obama again pledges to close Gitmo in State of the Union address
Published January 12, 2016 FoxNews.com
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What's next for Guantanamo Bay?
President Obama on Tuesday pledged once more to shutter the prison at Guantanamo Bay during his final State of the Union address.

“(The prison’s) expensive, it’s unnecessary and it only serves as a recruitment brochure for our enemies," he said to applause from supporters.

Obama’s comments come as his administration ramps up efforts to reduce the prison population at Gitmo.

The U.S. military is preparing a bulk transfer of 10 detainees on Thursday from its detention center at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, two defense officials told Fox News.

In the past two weeks, officials have already transferred four detainees, bringing the prisoner count to 103.

The transfer, amounting to about 10 percent of the remaining prisoners, marks the largest group of detainees to be shipped out of the camp since Defense Secretary Ash Carter informed Congress in December his department would transfer a wave of detainees at the beginning of 2016.

The accelerated transfers reflect a renewed push by the president to close the controversial prison camp.

Critics have questioned the transfers and say they pose a heightened security risk, because some of the detainees being shipped out are medium or high-risk prisoners.
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Re: Obama's final State of the Union

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Yeah, they've been slowly reducing the population of Guantanamo.

I think that more would have been done by now if not for Congressional obstruction.
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Re: Obama's final State of the Union

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So by transfer he presumably means freed and getting paid recompense for being held with no trial? Or is it simply Gitmo under any other name?
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Re: Obama's final State of the Union

Post by The Romulan Republic »

I'd have thought you'd already know the answer to that.

Anyway, what happens to those leaving Guantanamo varies from case to case.

I haven't found anything on compensation yet (though I personally doubt the government would compensate anyone unless forced to by the courts).

However, I did find this, for a start:

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/17/us/po ... .html?_r=0
WASHINGTON — The Obama administration appears to be on the cusp of the largest round of transfers of Guantánamo Bay detainees in a single month since 2007, a move that could reduce the detainee population there to as low as 90 by mid- to late January, according to officials familiar with internal deliberations.

Defense Secretary Ashton B. Carter has notified Congress in recent days that he has approved 17 proposed transfers of lower-level detainees, said the officials, who spoke on the condition of anonymity to discuss matters that have not yet been made public. Congress has required Mr. Carter to certify that security standards have been met at least 30 days before any transfers.

Continue reading the main story
RELATED COVERAGE

House Republicans Denounce Obama’s Handling of Prisoner ExchangeDEC. 9, 2015
Frustrated in Efforts to Close Guantánamo Prison, Officials Look to Reduce Population DEC. 2, 2015
Obama Signs Defense Bill, Despite Guantánamo ObjectionsNOV. 25, 2015
5 Yemeni Guantánamo Inmates Are Sent to United Arab EmiratesNOV. 15, 2015
President Obama wants to close the Guantánamo prison in Cuba before he leaves office in a little over a year. His administration has stepped up efforts to find countries to take 48 detainees on a transfer list and moved to speed up the work of a parole-like board that might approve the release of others who are currently recommended for indefinite detention.

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Gen. John F. Kelly has created new rules to limit news media access at the Guantánamo Bay military prison. Credit Jorge Saenz/Associated Press
The Republican-led Congress, however, has shown little interest in lifting a ban on bringing any detainees to a prison inside the United States, which is Mr. Obama’s plan for those who are either facing trial or are deemed too dangerous to release.

But even as the administration seems to be trying to speed up its fitful effort to winnow down the Guantánamo population, the military is taking steps that will curtail journalists’ access to the wartime prison.

The commander who oversees the military base, Gen. John F. Kelly, has created new rules that will limit reporters to four “media day” trips a year in which large groups will come and depart the same day. Reporters will generally no longer be permitted to go inside the prison camp’s walls.

In a telephone interview, General Kelly connected his decision “to tighten things up a little bit, particularly on the scheduling” for news media visits, in part to what he described as a sharp rise in visits by delegations from foreign governments that are considering resettling detainees.

The operational strains of handling such visitors, he said, formed the backdrop to an episode in October that focused his attention on rules for visits. He said that a journalist, whom he would not identify, was “extremely impolite” during an interaction with a service member who worked at a detainee library.

All that, he said, prompted him to fix what he saw as a problem before his designated successor, Vice Adm. Kurt Tidd, who is awaiting a Senate confirmation vote, takes over.

Until now, the military has generally permitted small numbers of reporters to visit the prison throughout the year if no military commission hearing is going on. The reporters have flown to the base on a Monday and flown out the following Thursday.

Reporters have spent that time on a tour that included walking through the two camps that hold lower-level detainees. While reporters have never been permitted to speak to the detainees, they have seen them from afar, talked to the officers in charge of each camp, interviewed the senior medical officer in the detainee clinic and interviewed lower-ranking guards.

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General Kelly said he decided it would be easier for everyone if groups of reporters came to the base only during quarterly “media days,” in which they could talk to a handful of officials like the joint task force commander and the military’s cultural adviser, and then leave that same day.

The general said he no longer wanted reporters to talk to lower-level guards because it was not their role to opine about detention operations, or to go inside the prison because that could cause disruptions. However, he said, depending on what else is going on, exceptions might be made to let first-time visitors inside.

“The camps have not changed since the last time you’ve been there,” he told a reporter for The New York Times who has visited the prison several times, most recently in August 2014. “We still do the same things.”

Several news media outlets, including The Times, have asked the military to reconsider. Dave Wilson, a senior editor at The Miami Herald who oversees its coverage of Guantánamo, said he had told the military that it was important for experienced beat reporters to keep going inside the prison.

“A first-timer doesn’t know what they are seeing because they are seeing it for the first time,” Mr. Wilson said. “They don’t know if something has changed. They don’t know if it’s better or worse.”

General Kelly previously decided in September 2013 to stop telling reporters how many detainees were participating in a hunger strike each day.
Though its mostly focussed on the restrictions on the media at Guantanamo, it does discuss some of the possible fates of inmates. Some are released, some are sent to other countries (not clear from this article on weather that's "released to other countries", "transferred to prisons in other countries", or "a bit of both"), and some are to be put on trial. Obama apparently wants to transfer some to US prisons, but is being stopped by Congress.

Haven't found a full list of detainees to leave Guantanamo and their destinations from a source other than Wikipedia yet, but failing that, here's Wikipedia's list:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_ ... _detainees
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Re: Obama's final State of the Union

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So it is not really closing Guantanamo, apologizing for and ending the practice there, it is just transferring them elsewhere and hope everybody forgets about them.

So typical Obama bullshit, morally bankrupt and abhorrent.
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Re: Obama's final State of the Union

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"Companies in a global economy can locate anywhere, and they face tougher competition. As a result, workers have less leverage for a raise. Companies have less loyalty to their communities. And more and more wealth and income is concentrated at the very top.

All these trends have squeezed workers, even when they have jobs; even when the economy is growing. It’s made it harder for a hardworking family to pull itself out of poverty, harder for young people to start their careers, tougher for workers to retire when they want to. And although none of these trends are unique to America, they do offend our uniquely American belief that everybody who works hard should get a fair shot."

Huh? I get that the Annual Presidential Circlejerk has a certain amount of dramatic exaggeration, but this makes no sense.
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Re: Obama's final State of the Union

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Thanas wrote:So it is not really closing Guantanamo, apologizing for and ending the practice there, it is just transferring them elsewhere and hope everybody forgets about them.

So typical Obama bullshit, morally bankrupt and abhorrent.
That is a lie that flat-out ignores what I just posted (unless I give you the extreme benefit of the doubt and allow that you may have suddenly become illiterate or delusional).

Some are intended to be tried/transferred elsewhere, and some are released.

To my knowledge, Obama has not formally apologized for Guantanamo, but he's made it pretty clear that he personally opposes what was done their and considers it a mistake.

Certainly, that does not excuse everything that has gone on their, and their are plenty of other points I could criticize Obama on. But you are frankly being dishonest here.
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Re: Obama's final State of the Union

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Fuck off.

First of all, there is no public trial with clear view of the evidence, nor is any planned. If you disagree, show the source.

Second, transferring people to other countries is the exact definition of transferring them elsewhere and hope people forget about them.

Third, no compensation being paid is also true.
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A decision must be made in the life of every nation at the very moment when the grasp of the enemy is at its throat. Then, it seems that the only way to survive is to use the means of the enemy, to rest survival upon what is expedient, to look the other way. Well, the answer to that is 'survival as what'? A country isn't a rock. It's not an extension of one's self. It's what it stands for. It's what it stands for when standing for something is the most difficult! - Chief Judge Haywood
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Re: Obama's final State of the Union

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Thanas wrote:Fuck off.

First of all, there is no public trial with clear view of the evidence, nor is any planned. If you disagree, show the source.
Not going to argue that one way or the other at this time.
Second, transferring people to other countries is the exact definition of transferring them elsewhere and hope people forget about them.


This is a point of contention.

See, there is a big difference between transferring someone to another prison and releasing them, and at least some Guantanamo prisoners are being or have been released. You appear to be refusing to acknowledge that. Your last post definitely implies that all or nearly all of the detainees will remain imprisoned, simply at different facilities.
Third, no compensation being paid is also true.
That's what I'd expect, and I believe I said as much, but as a matter of principle I'm going to ask for a source.
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Re: Obama's final State of the Union

Post by Alyrium Denryle »

Not going to argue that one way or the other at this time.
They are given military commissions. Here is how they differ from actual courts.

Military commissions only require 2/3rds of a tribunal to convict

Military commissions may consider secret evidence that the accused has no right to see or defend themselves against (read: spectral evidence)

Military commissions may consider evidence extracted under coercion

Acquittal is no guarantee of release.

If you did not know this, you are ignorant and should simply shut the fuck up and go read the Military Commissions Act of 2006
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Re: Obama's final State of the Union

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Alyrium Denryle wrote:
Not going to argue that one way or the other at this time.
They are given military commissions. Here is how they differ from actual courts.

Military commissions only require 2/3rds of a tribunal to convict

Military commissions may consider secret evidence that the accused has no right to see or defend themselves against (read: spectral evidence)

Military commissions may consider evidence extracted under coercion

Acquittal is no guarantee of release.
All of which sucks, and none of which I disputed, of course.
If you did not know this, you are ignorant and should simply shut the fuck up and go read the Military Commissions Act of 2006
Since I disputed none of what preceded this, I'm not sure why you are attacking me so vehemently, unless you a) are holding a grudge over a previous thread or b) consider it an offence to disagree with or question anything Thanas says.

Let me make something very clear, in case you were too thick to get it before:

I am not defending the practices at Guantanamo. Nor am I saying that the current solution is sufficient. I will admit I am not familiar with all the details of how Guantanamo inmates are tried, but I know enough to distrust the process and am not arguing in its defence here. I am simply disputing what I feel is oversimplification/exaggeration on Thanas's part, trying to provide some information on the subject based on my own research (if you take issue with my sources, please explain why), and pointing out that the situation is not entirely Obama's fault.
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Re: Obama's final State of the Union

Post by Gaidin »

I think regarding the speech(es) themselves the most amusing article I've read today was from CNN:

Who said it: Nikki Haley or Barack Obama
Washington (CNN)Both President Barack Obama and Republican South Carolina Gov. Nikki Haley -- who delivered the GOP rebuttal to the State of the Union -- seemed to speak directly to Donald Trump at times on Tuesday night. In fact, they had strikingly similar messages of tolerance and bipartisanship.

While they wouldn't agree on much policy, at many moments their speeches sounded very similar.

Can you tell the difference?

1) We need to be honest with each other, and with ourselves: While Democrats in Washington bear much responsibility for the problems facing America today, they do not bear it alone. There is more than enough blame to go around.

2) Today, we live in a time of threats like few others in recent memory. During anxious times, it can be tempting to follow the siren call of the angriest voices. We must resist that temptation.

3) Anyone claiming that America's economy is in decline is peddling fiction.

4) No one who is willing to work hard, abide by our laws, and love our traditions should ever feel unwelcome in this country.

5) Many of our best corporate citizens are also our most creative.

6) We need to reject any politics that targets people because of race or religion. This isn't a matter of political correctness. It's a matter of understanding what makes us strong.

7) We must fix our broken immigration system. That means stopping illegal immigration. And it means welcoming properly vetted legal immigrants, regardless of their race or religion. Just like we have for centuries.

8) When politicians insult Muslims, when a mosque is vandalized, or a kid bullied, that doesn't make us safer. That's not telling it like it is. It's just wrong.

9) Some people think that you have to be the loudest voice in the room to make a difference. That is just not true. Often, the best thing we can do is turn down the volume. When the sound is quieter, you can actually hear what someone else is saying. And that can make a world of difference.

10) As frustration grows, there will be voices urging us to fall back into tribes, to scapegoat fellow citizens who don't look like us, or pray like us, or vote like we do, or share the same background.

Haley -- 1, 2, 4, 7, 9

Obama -- 3, 5, 6, 8, 10
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Re: Obama's final State of the Union

Post by Thanas »

The Romulan Republic wrote:
Thanas wrote:Fuck off.

First of all, there is no public trial with clear view of the evidence, nor is any planned. If you disagree, show the source.
Not going to argue that one way or the other at this time.
You claim you do not dispute military commissions, but make a statement like this? You dishonest little cunt.
See, there is a big difference between transferring someone to another prison and releasing them, and at least some Guantanamo prisoners are being or have been released. You appear to be refusing to acknowledge that. Your last post definitely implies that all or nearly all of the detainees will remain imprisoned, simply at different facilities.
I imply nothing. The people released have been, in a vast majority, be released to places with little to no media presence in countries far away. No people have been released to the USA. So you can fuck off with your implicaiton.
That's what I'd expect, and I believe I said as much, but as a matter of principle I'm going to ask for a source.
Have you been blind the last few years? Oh wait, it is you we are talking about, so maybe your memory does indeed short out after a few days. Like it does short out debate rules. Like don't ask me to prove a negative (though such do exist, like Kurnaz or El-Masri). So how about you find a case where the USA paid compensation?
The Romulan Republic wrote: Since I disputed none of what preceded this, I'm not sure why you are attacking me so vehemently, unless you a) are holding a grudge over a previous thread or b) consider it an offence to disagree with or question anything Thanas says.
Because you claimed trials were on the table when they are not. It should be obvious to every dimwit out there that trials are incompatible with military commissions. So....go fuck off, especially with the insinuation under b), for which I have got half a mind for warning you.
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Re: Obama's final State of the Union

Post by Channel72 »

Gandalf wrote:"Companies in a global economy can locate anywhere, and they face tougher competition. As a result, workers have less leverage for a raise. Companies have less loyalty to their communities. And more and more wealth and income is concentrated at the very top.

All these trends have squeezed workers, even when they have jobs; even when the economy is growing. It’s made it harder for a hardworking family to pull itself out of poverty, harder for young people to start their careers, tougher for workers to retire when they want to. And although none of these trends are unique to America, they do offend our uniquely American belief that everybody who works hard should get a fair shot."

Huh? I get that the Annual Presidential Circlejerk has a certain amount of dramatic exaggeration, but this makes no sense.
What doesn't make sense? It's part of American national mythology. You see, the US is a wondrous land paved with gold, where anyone with a lick of gumption and self-determination can work hard and live the American dream.*

* American dream not guaranteed. American dream may be void for residents of Detroit, people named Jamaal, or for individuals who are not major stockholders in one or more Fortune 500 companies.
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Re: Obama's final State of the Union

Post by LaCroix »

I think the word "uniquely" is what quirks him the most.

Yeah, out of 8 billion people, only 300 million (the US-Americans) hold the belief that who works hard should get a fair shot.
To the rest of the world, in all history, this sentiment never occurred, even once. *sigh*

But I get it - if you don't exaggerate in a speech, it doesn't count..
A minute's thought suggests that the very idea of this is stupid. A more detailed examination raises the possibility that it might be an answer to the question "how could the Germans win the war after the US gets involved?" - Captain Seafort, in a thread proposing a 1942 'D-Day' in Quiberon Bay

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Re: Obama's final State of the Union

Post by Gandalf »

Channel72 wrote:
Gandalf wrote:Huh? I get that the Annual Presidential Circlejerk has a certain amount of dramatic exaggeration, but this makes no sense.
What doesn't make sense? It's part of American national mythology. You see, the US is a wondrous land paved with gold, where anyone with a lick of gumption and self-determination can work hard and live the American dream.*

* American dream not guaranteed. American dream may be void for residents of Detroit, people named Jamaal, or for individuals who are not major stockholders in one or more Fortune 500 companies.
LaCroix is correct. Why is this idea somehow unique to Americans? If one removes the word from that passage, it doesn't become much less wanky. So does Obama believe that?
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Re: Obama's final State of the Union

Post by Alyrium Denryle »

All of which sucks, and none of which I disputed, of course.
You said you would not argue it one way or the other, which implies ignorance.
b) consider it an offence to disagree with or question anything Thanas says.
You must have missed the long drag-out fights I have had with Thanas over the years.
I am simply disputing what I feel is oversimplification/exaggeration on Thanas's part, trying to provide some information on the subject based on my own research (if you take issue with my sources, please explain why), and pointing out that the situation is not entirely Obama's fault.
While not entirely Obama's fault, plenty of it is. His administration has continued to protect torturers, suppress reports and whistleblowers regarding our torture program, and has continued to blanket-classify detainees as enemy combatants and make them subject to military commissions rather than civilian or military trials. Those things he need not consult congress to fix, and has not done them
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Re: Obama's final State of the Union

Post by Simon_Jester »

Gandalf wrote:
Channel72 wrote:
Gandalf wrote:Huh? I get that the Annual Presidential Circlejerk has a certain amount of dramatic exaggeration, but this makes no sense.
What doesn't make sense? It's part of American national mythology. You see, the US is a wondrous land paved with gold, where anyone with a lick of gumption and self-determination can work hard and live the American dream.*

* American dream not guaranteed. American dream may be void for residents of Detroit, people named Jamaal, or for individuals who are not major stockholders in one or more Fortune 500 companies.
LaCroix is correct. Why is this idea somehow unique to Americans? If one removes the word from that passage, it doesn't become much less wanky. So does Obama believe that?
Part of the problem is that in modern speech, "uniquely" is often used by people who really ought to say "especially." It's sort of like how "literally" gets overused as an intensifier, even in situations where it isn't quite appropriate... or is clearly inappropriate.

I'd call it sloppy speaking, not American chauvinism. Obama just isn't that much of an ultra-nationalist.
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Re: Obama's final State of the Union

Post by Gandalf »

So what is an "especially American belief" in this context?
"Oh no, oh yeah, tell me how can it be so fair
That we dying younger hiding from the police man over there
Just for breathing in the air they wanna leave me in the chair
Electric shocking body rocking beat streeting me to death"

- A.B. Original, Report to the Mist

"I think it’s the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately."
- George Carlin
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Re: Obama's final State of the Union

Post by Channel72 »

It's part of America's fetishization of self-reliance and individual hard work, which is probably derived to some extent from the so-called "Protestant work-ethic", a theological concept that values hard work as a supreme virtue, along with the whole "frontier mythology" that is so prevalent in the American cultural psyche.

Of course, it's complete bullshit - but I just assumed everyone was used to hearing American politicians throw around rhetoric like that. Democrats in particular like to drop in a reference to "hard working American folks" in order to appeal to conservative voters without necessarily offending any liberals.

Anyway, yeah, the idea that "hard work" is a virtue is hardly a uniquely American thing, it's just that America seems to fetishize the idea of the successful, hard working, bootstrapping individual/frontiersman moreso than other nations. It also doesn't help that the average American who is influenced by this sort of stupid rhetoric is likely an overweight moron who wouldn't last 2 seconds without a nearby Walmart and the multi-trillion-dollar 21st century infrastructure and economy he's used to.
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