Mass sexual assault in Cologne, including rape cases

[salm]

Thing is, that's not an alternative to deporting refugees whose failure to assimilate is potentially a threat to the host nation. Because inevitably, not all the refugees will consent to this- and since they're pouring across the border anyway regardless of what you want or say, you have to have some plan for the ones who don't.

Either they have to be held out of the nation by force, or expelled by force, or allowed to do as they please, because in at least some cases force is the only thing likely to actually stop them in a timely manner.

Which doesn't mean liberal values are wrong or something. It simply means we have to be realistic and intelligent about foreseeing the consequences of actions, and accepting that not everyone will do as we expect or desire, and that sometimes it is necessary to protect the many from the disruptive actions of the few.

So we have the tools that are needed. We grant the normal people asylum. We can lock up and then throw out the really bad ones and we can lock up or fine the semi bad ones. The tools set is there and has been there for ever.

I think we need to remind ourselves that the vast majorit of asylum seekers are normal and not some sort of cartoonish sex crazed Arab comming for our daughters. This whole thing has turned into hysteria.

[salm]

In Australia we have our own problems, but I think Europe has a problem of doing multiculturalism, which doesn't help the current situation. I mean Thanas has mentioned second generation Turks who still don't speak German. This seems unthinkable in Australia.

Integration is going to be a difficult process. Not helped by these asylum seekers causing sexual assaults and the other side who treats refugees as a monolithic group rather than individuals who commit a crime.

This is an issue we have to do better than during the last immigration wave. When the turks came we thought it would be brilliant idea to separate them into ghettos. Now we reap as we sowed.
A lot of people are aware of that. At the moment there unfortunately are no capacities available so again most refugees are packed together. I hope this is resolved within the next years.

[Simon_Jester]

You don't want to assimilate, don't come here. It's a package deal. You get food, shelter, and not being killed by religious idiots who want to murder you because you're the wrong subset of your religion, and in return you play by our rules. If you don't LIKE those rules you can always go elsewhere.

I will not give the regugees that much leeway just because they're refugees. Your way of life sucks, it doesn't stop sucking just because somebody whose way of life sucked even more drove you out, and I fail to see why we should be required to allow you any leeway in keeping that way of life when it clearly violates local law.

Yes, yes, I heard you the first time.

The trouble is, if you want to say what you just said, then you have to be prepared to deport refugees who break the law. Right now the prevailing response of the European left is "we won't deport." At which point this becomes an exercise in formal logic:

If you want to demand that immigrants assimilate, then you must deport a few for lawbreaking.

If you won't deport a few for lawbreaking, you cannot demand that immigrants assimilate.

If P implies Q, then not-Q implies not-P.

So basically, either the European position on refugees needs to expand to include "if you break our laws regarding the treatment of women, we will deport your ass back to a war zone," OR the European position on refugees will wind up failing to assimilate these refugees. One or the other.

So we have the tools that are needed. We grant the normal people asylum. We can lock up and then throw out the really bad ones and we can lock up or fine the semi bad ones. The tools set is there and has been there for ever.

I think we need to remind ourselves that the vast majorit of asylum seekers are normal and not some sort of cartoonish sex crazed Arab comming for our daughters. This whole thing has turned into hysteria.

It is necessary both to know that the vast majority of refugees are normal and to know that we are prepared to deport refugees who break the law.

As noted by others, when we downplay one half of that equation, or refuse to admit that it exists, trouble will always result, and that trouble will generally result in bad policies that hurt everyone.

[Ralin]

If you want to demand that immigrants assimilate, then you must deport a few for lawbreaking.

If you won't deport a few for lawbreaking, you cannot demand that immigrants assimilate.

If P implies Q, then not-Q implies not-P.

So basically, either the European position on refugees needs to expand to include "if you break our laws regarding the treatment of women, we will deport your ass back to a war zone," OR the European position on refugees will wind up failing to assimilate these refugees. One or the other.

Those aren't the only options. It might not be as common/politically feasible as it would be in the US, but imprisoning them in some place unpleasant for a long period of time is possible too. It doesn't have to be worse than a Syrian civil war to be a deterrent if it's done consistently enough.

[Thanas]

Simon, the Geneva convention on refugees prohibits sending them back to warzones or torture.

[salm]

It is necessary both to know that the vast majority of refugees are normal and to know that we are prepared to deport refugees who break the law.

As noted by others, when we downplay one half of that equation, or refuse to admit that it exists, trouble will always result, and that trouble will generally result in bad policies that hurt everyone.

Yeah, and we are constantly reminded of the possiblilty of deportation. Long before new years eve we heard in the media all the time that Balkan countries and Afghanistan were to be declared safe counties for deportation.
If anybody "forgot" about the option to deport refugees he must be living under a rock.

Unfortunately since new years eve a significant amount of people seem to be "forgetting" that most refugees are normal and that justice is supposed to be blind.

This isn´t downplaying anything. We should treat criminals as what they are and we have tools to do this. Screaming for extra ordinarily harsh treatment while being emotionally upset is something we should specifically avoid, though. That´s the reason why we don´t let victims of crimes or their relatives judge. We have professional judges.
And we should act in the same spirit when deciding on new laws.

[Ralin]

Yeah, I'm not actually clear on why people are jumping past all the regular judicial steps to "do we deport them?" Seems like that would be a conversation that could be put off until after jailing criminal refugees for however many years German law prescribes for taking part in a roving public rape gang if it becomes apparent that treating them like regular criminals who assault women isn't working.

[salm]

Yeah, I'm not actually clear on why people are jumping past all the regular judicial steps to "do we deport them?"

People blame groups for what some of their members do all the time. At least as long as it´s "the others".

Nobody is blaming The Germans, even though 250 of them just vandalized a whole neighborhood in Leipzig. No, here it isn´t "The Germans", here they are suddently "The Hooligans".

But on new years eve it was "The Arabs" and not "The Criminals".

[salm]

Sorry, double post.

[Zaune]

Honestly, if they've been granted the local equivalent of Indefinite Leave To Remain then I think they should be dealt with exactly the same as a bunch of German nationals would have been. What would the prison term be for a bunch of drunk German fratbros pulling a stunt like this?

[salm]

Honestly, if they've been granted the local equivalent of Indefinite Leave To Remain then I think they should be dealt with exactly the same as a bunch of German nationals would have been. What would the prison term be for a bunch of drunk German fratbros pulling a stunt like this?

Depends. German sexual harrasment law is pretty bad. Gorping isn´t considered harrasment unless the the goped person tells the groper to stop and the groper continues.

Some but few of the cases in Cologne apparently can legally be rape. Rape carries term of not under 1 year (max. 15 years).
The law differentiates between normal rape and severe rape. Severe cases carrie a term of not uner 2 years. One qualifer for "severe" is commiting rape in a group.
Not under three years are for cases where the criminal HAS a weapon or the victims health is heavily damaged.
Not under five years if the rapist USES a weapon or heavily abuses the victim or brings the victim in danger of dying.
To me it looks like "severe" rape might apply because of the "group" qualifier.

[ray245]

Do you really think it is a good idea to keep a sizeable amount of non citizen refugees in prison for so long? What happens when they leave the prison?

[ray245]

Yeah, I'm not actually clear on why people are jumping past all the regular judicial steps to "do we deport them?"

People blame groups for what some of their members do all the time. At least as long as it´s "the others".

Nobody is blaming The Germans, even though 250 of them just vandalized a whole neighborhood in Leipzig. No, here it isn´t "The Germans", here they are suddently "The Hooligans".

But on new years eve it was "The Arabs" and not "The Criminals".

It's the "criminals of Arab descent." People don't give the Germans so much grief for the actions of a few hooligans is because Germany has a legal system set up to punish people within their community for wrong behaviour.

Right now, the refugees don't have any system in place to punish people within their own "community" ( doesn't matter if it does exist, perception that it does exist is key here.)

Not acknowledging the ethnicity and its importance to many people within society is only going to harm the refugees in the long run. Your arguments are trying to appeal to a crowd that is based in logic as opposed to emotions. Right now, there are very few people that is interested in hearing any logical reasoning.

The refusal to admit that there are social problems and challenges that a large population of refugees will cause will MASSIVELY affect any hope of bridging mutual trust between people. Social trust can't be legislated by law or any sort of policy alone. I think the current system has already shown us how unprepared it is to integrate such a large group of newcomers.

[cmdrjones]

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source= ... BMOO8q-Ipw

I wasn't contributing enough content, so here goes.... Anybody recognize this train station? Is it in fact in cologne? At what point will people in Germany stop giving a,fuck about the Geneva convention?

[mr friendly guy]

If Europe says fuck you to the Geneva convention as cmdrjones suggest, can we expect Europe to stop complaining about others for doing the same? I mean Europe criticised China (and rightly so) for sending NK refugees back there. The thing is, its time to put up or shut up as the saying goes. So far countries like Germany and Sweden have shown leadership on the issues, but I am not too sure about the rest of Europe.

[LaCroix]

Why would a German subway station be plastered in arabic posters, arabic graffity, and have a "No smoking - *arabic no smoking*" sign over it, but no German writings, at all? This is the worst faked news, ever...

[salm]

Do you really think it is a good idea to keep a sizeable amount of non citizen refugees in prison for so long? What happens when they leave the prison?

Which sizable amount? The criminal statistics show that refugees are not more criminal than the rest of the population.
See, this is the racism that is in action here. People just "assume" that we will have to lock up a "sizable amount" of refugees without even bothering to look up the facts.

[Broomstick]

Is it in fact in cologne? At what point will people in Germany stop giving a,fuck about the Geneva convention?

I hope never. We don't need that sort of thing. Remember what happened last time? No thanks.

[salm]

It's the "criminals of Arab descent." People don't give the Germans so much grief for the actions of a few hooligans is because Germany has a legal system set up to punish people within their community for wrong behaviour.

Right now, the refugees don't have any system in place to punish people within their own "community" ( doesn't matter if it does exist, perception that it does exist is key here.)

I want the refugees to have system in place to punish people about as much as I want the hooligans to have such a system in place or about as much as I want to shove bamboo under my finger nails.
The state has a monopoly on punishing criminals and that´s how it is supposed to be.

Not acknowledging the ethnicity and its importance to many people within society is only going to harm the refugees in the long run. Your arguments are trying to appeal to a crowd that is based in logic as opposed to emotions. Right now, there are very few people that is interested in hearing any logical reasoning.

Not acknowledging the ethinicity? What are you talking about?
There are plenty of people who are interested in hearing logical reasoning. And that´s good. There are just also a lot of people who are turning hysterical. The former is good the latter is bad.

The refusal to admit that there are social problems and challenges that a large population of refugees will cause will MASSIVELY affect any hope of bridging mutual trust between people. Social trust can't be legislated by law or any sort of policy alone. I think the current system has already shown us how unprepared it is to integrate such a large group of newcomers.

Please show me the people who are refusing to admit social problems.
There´s a difference between not admitting problems and viewing problems as solvable. Of course losers and pussies will view any problem as an unsolvable barrier but I am optimistic that the amount of losers is significanly offset by the amount normal people

[Thanas]

Thread is locked pending moderator action.

[Thanas]

Jones has been banned after the latest petty racist shit he has pulled. For anybody interested, even a cursory search of rightwing sites would reveal that the video was not from cologne. Even rightwing pamela gellar had to acknowledge that on her site.

http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic. ... 0&t=164422

Thread unlocked.

[ray245]

Do you really think it is a good idea to keep a sizeable amount of non citizen refugees in prison for so long? What happens when they leave the prison?

Which sizable amount? The criminal statistics show that refugees are not more criminal than the rest of the population.
See, this is the racism that is in action here. People just "assume" that we will have to lock up a "sizable amount" of refugees without even bothering to look up the facts.

Did I ever say refugees are more criminal than the rest of the population? No one is inherently more prone to criminal acts than others. If you are assuming that I am saying refugees are naturally more prone to criminal acts, fuck you. However, there will be crimes that are being committed by criminal groups that are predominately refugees. And there will be people being punished for sexual discrimination and harassment if the legal mechanism is the only means of "educating" newcomers.

And a sizeable amount does not mean there is a massively disproportionate amount of people of MENA descent committing criminal acts. All we need is a few prominent cases of this happening and it will create a negative impression of the refugees. Most people don't care about statistics and figures Public opinion tend to be based on perception than actual empirical evidence.

I want the refugees to have system in place to punish people about as much as I want the hooligans to have such a system in place or about as much as I want to shove bamboo under my finger nails.
The state has a monopoly on punishing criminals and that´s how it is supposed to be.

True, but the issue is those refugees have yet to become a part of the German society so far. They aren't German citizens yet. Also, there is a perception that people of MENA descent have no problem ( or less of a problem) with sexism. No matter how many people the state punishes, it does not change this perception.

Not acknowledging the ethinicity? What are you talking about?
There are plenty of people who are interested in hearing logical reasoning. And that´s good. There are just also a lot of people who are turning hysterical. The former is good the latter is bad.

And why do we keep hearing reports that the police and the media are unwillingly to report the perpetrators of this event are largely people who are of Middle Eastern/Arabic descent? It only gives off the impression that the media and the police have something to hide and further enhance the hysteria and fear about refugees.

Please show me the people who are refusing to admit social problems.
There´s a difference between not admitting problems and viewing problems as solvable. Of course losers and pussies will view any problem as an unsolvable barrier but I am optimistic that the amount of losers is significanly offset by the amount normal people

I think you are one of them. You assume that the current mechanism in terms of helping refugees bridge the cultural divide, especially when it comes to sexual discrimination and harassment is enough. Yes, there the law and other education programs, but I am saying those aren't enough.

I don't think simply throwing refugees who have committed crimes like sexual harassment into prison is enough. It's all stick and no carrot. Not having any avenue to talk about the problems of middle eastern societies when it comes to gender equality is a problem, especially with people like you throwing up terms like racism.

[salm]

Did I ever say refugees are more criminal than the rest of the population? No one is inherently more prone to criminal acts than others. If you are assuming that I am saying refugees are naturally more prone to criminal acts, fuck you. However, there will be crimes that are being committed by criminal groups that are predominately refugees. And there will be people being punished for sexual discrimination and harassment if the legal mechanism is the only means of "educating" newcomers.

And a sizeable amount does not mean there is a massively disproportionate amount of people of MENA descent committing criminal acts. All we need is a few prominent cases of this happening and it will create a negative impression of the refugees. Most people don't care about statistics and figures Public opinion tend to be based on perception than actual empirical evidence.

You asked if I thought it was a good idea to keep a sizable chunk of non citizens in prison. If "sizable chunk" isn´t a synonym for "a lot" then please clarify what you are trying to say.
If "sizable chunk" does not mean "a lot" but means "a completely normal percentage of the population" then of course I think it´s a good idea. That´s what the prison system is there for. Locking up criminals. And regarding your other question on what to do when they are released: The same we do with any other prisoner who is released with the exception that the ones who are eligable for deportation should be deported.

True, but the issue is those refugees have yet to become a part of the German society so far. They aren't German citizens yet. Also, there is a perception that people of MENA descent have no problem ( or less of a problem) with sexism. No matter how many people the state punishes, it does not change this perception.

So what? The law and the prison sysem is responsible for citizens as well as non citizens.
There is also no perception that people of MENA have no problems with sexism. Where does this come from? I think everybody is aware that Arab nations are one of the most sexist societies on the planet.
This doesn´t have any relevance regarding granting people refugee status, though, nor is it relevant when it comes to deporting people.

And why do we keep hearing reports that the police and the media are unwillingly to report the perpetrators of this event are largely people who are of Middle Eastern/Arabic descent? It only gives off the impression that the media and the police have something to hide and further enhance the hysteria and fear about refugees.

Eh? I can´t remember an incident where I´ve heard the words "North African men" so many times.
Where did you get that from? It is pure and utter nonsense.

I think you are one of them. You assume that the current mechanism in terms of helping refugees bridge the cultural divide, especially when it comes to sexual discrimination and harassment is enough. Yes, there the law and other education programs, but I am saying those aren't enough.

Sure. I don´t admit social problems. That´s why I never argue in favor of better integration programs and politics than we had in the past.

I don't think simply throwing refugees who have committed crimes like sexual harassment into prison is enough. It's all stick and no carrot. Not having any avenue to talk about the problems of middle eastern societies when it comes to gender equality is a problem, especially with people like you throwing up terms like racism.

For the carrot: see better integration programs.

[Grumman]

And a sizeable amount does not mean there is a massively disproportionate amount of people of MENA descent committing criminal acts.

Isn't the massively disproportionate amount of people of MENA descent committing criminal acts the only reason anyone let these people into Europe in the first place?

[Edi]

And a sizeable amount does not mean there is a massively disproportionate amount of people of MENA descent committing criminal acts.

Isn't the massively disproportionate amount of people of MENA descent committing criminal acts the only reason anyone let these people into Europe in the first place?

Do you want to explain, clarify or rephrase that comment?

Because right now it seems like you are saying that such a number of MENA people were let into Europe specifically because they are supposedly disproportionately prone to criminal acts compared to the native population.

If that is the intent of your comment, I have absolutely no problem sending you to join cmdrjones in Parting Shots. I have no interest in trying to tamp down another troll tangent.